A Race Through Dark Places | For the First Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much.

[0:22] We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time.

[0:33] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all the things that we didn't know and couldn't have known the first time around. But we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in the series. Will we find the same ones we did the first time around? Are we going to find new things? We're asking what this episode is trying to teach us. We're looking for mirrors to society, hope that things can be better in the future, or ways just to be better human beings to one another. Now, all of that said, this is your warning point. From this spot of the show forward, spoilers will abound. So if you're watching this show for the very first time, please consider this your spoiler wording. Stop. Stop listening right now. Go back to our other one where we did it for the first time that was completely spoiler free because we didn't know. We just didn't know. And you guys out there were so cool to help keep us spoiler free. That one is perfectly safe. You guys make sure you do that one first and then join us here on the second watch. Today, Brent, we're watching the episode, A Race Through Dark Places for the second time.

[1:55] My first time watch, I tried to remember what I remembered from this one I'm like, I'm pretty sure this is the Underground Railroad one And all I really remember about this one was...

[2:06] There was dude who we saw as a lurker one time before got a lot of Talia stuff. And I seem to remember like Franklin, we were supposed to believe that Franklin was a hero out of this one, but I think I actually ended up like not liking him even more is what I remember a ton from my first watch. Do you remember what you thought of it the first time around? I remember liking it, but I don't necessarily remember why. That's fair. like you i my memory serves this is the episode and this might be the underground railroad where um you're right we have the we have the the lurker who turns out he's a telepath he's the guy from stargate from the movie stargate is one of the abydonians there and they do this whole thing with talia where they get her to basically do something to best maybe that's why i liked it because of how they pulled one over on best i think besters in this episode and they pulled something like if if this is the episode i'm remembering i'm like yeah i kind of i really like this episode but i don't get the i don't remember the exact specifics why that's that's where i'm left with this episode you you would say hey it's a race through dark places and i'd be like which one was that sure man whatever well brent i went back and listened to our first time.

[3:17] Episode the one that brent just told you to go back and listen to if you haven't before do you want to know what we actually thought of this one i would love to know what we actually thought of this one we really liked this episode did we a lot good okay we thought that a and b plots were perfectly juxtaposed together love it you were blown away that bester showed up because in your prediction right the week before there's no way no way bester's gonna be here and here he was at one point you said and i love this so much uh-huh if we do babylon 5 for the second time i want all the spoilers yes i want them all put them all in our chat hey listen our council chambers are joining us guys have at it tell us everything do it let's go two times in this one watching it the first time i yelled what like i was just so blown away with different things that happened i said it was fun it was heavy super dark and that this episode should be a jewel in jms's crown i asked the question is this one of the babylon five episodes and i planted a flag in this one oh i said that bester not really wrong he's just following the law which led us to a really really good conversation on morally reprehensible laws but my thing was if you take out the scene with him on mars which i will reiterate here which i did there no one on babylon five saw that scene on Mars.

[4:45] So if you take that out of the equation, he just shows up, is following the rules and does his job.

[4:51] That's it. I will be watching with an unbiased eye in this episode. We talked a lot about Kosh.

[4:58] He said, he's even, he's barely even a part of this show. Do we even have to worry about him at this point? That's fair. That's really fair. Then almost nothing this whole time. We have talked a little bit, even here in our second watch through, but even back then about Talia and her kind of flip-flopping or our perceived flip-flopping on Sycor. And so we talked about the brainwashing that the telepath experience have to be why it's like she has an abuse survivor relationship. Oh, they only hurt me because they love me. I'm only doing the things that they need me to do. And you talked quite a bit, really well, about the intentional use of the term underground railroad.

[5:38] That very specifically is meant to invoke images of slavery and how the telepaths are treated. And you had this great line. It was the delivery of the line. It was so good. You said, imagine as a person of color, oops, I mean as a telepath, you're told that your very existence is a threat. Yeah yeah garibaldi gives an incredible assessment of psych or and we talked about it basically uh he perfectly called them nazis without calling them nazis and uh and again we we talked in the messages piece quite a bit about immoral laws and that it's important that you call it out that this is an immoral law and you fight those immoral laws as much as possible seems like we might have a big of a discussion after this one this time around too might be a lot to talk about i don't remember any of the stuff you're talking about that's so interesting you say all that yeah we went deep deep this is the stuff man i know you and i have talked about a little bit offline but here i'll just say here you and i have talked about what does it mean if we actually put together a kind of a running thing about the messages that we find in babylon 5 and what those are.

[6:45] Because frankly it it is the most important part of this episode it's the part that i think it's talked about the least we get comments on the least but i hope it's the part that is most impactful for folks you know um i think it's the most important thing that we do and i think it's the thing that probably sets us apart from most other places that and we're just super cool well there's that says the guy with the babylon five podcast.

[7:08] But i listened to the podcast uh yeah you scoured the web for things that jms said about this episode what'd you find well i always start with the lurker's guide because now we're allowed to look at that and go through stuff on that it had a question this wasn't part of what jms said but there was a question that was asked for it it said this watch for a minor character from a previous episode who turns out not to be so minor after all i cannot believe that they're talking about bester here no i couldn't think so he was not a minor character in his previous episode he was pretty major so i don't know who we're talking about here i want to think it's lurker guy sg1 guy or stargate guy is it is it i feel like it's got to be bigger than that though maybe maybe not maybe maybe it's because i know we never see the guy again so he's really not that big or important just that guy is a telepath and now he's a mouthpiece for the group for this one single episode like in a big way sure but not not in the overall scheme of everything and this thing just says it turns out they're not so minor after all i would argue he is still a minor character he's not so minor there's minor and so minor he's pretty minor still pretty minor pretty minor just not so you might be right that might be who they're talking about might be who they're talking about uh judy levitt plays uh the psycore person who is opposite bester in the scene on mars any idea who she is jeff that's walter.

[8:36] Koenig's wife his wife wifey she's since passed may she rest in peace yes yes there is a production gaffe in this episode that i like to point out some of.

[8:47] The production stuff sometimes when we get information on that in the scene right outside air hearts when delin is asking sheridan to dinner so those are our cues we're outside ear parts, Sheridan's asking to let the Lynn is asking Sheridan to dinner. There's actually a boom microphone that falls into the screen. Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I want to, I want to see that.

[9:05] Um, little note, little, little, uh, scenery note here. They have adopted a tradition within Earhart's of putting in a symbol for any ship. I guess if I'm reading this right, it's like when ships visit the station, they put a symbol of that ship in the bar. All right. Okay. This is a real military tradition today, uh, for officers clubs and Naval base clubs where they put the logos or their markings of the big ships or planes that come through that area. That's cool. it's kind of like leaving leaving their calling card there so specifically the cortez is most visible among them so i i kind of i like that little little detail you know i think that's kind of fun apparently they put a lot of work into the sound mix for this episode jeff or specifically watching it in surround sound yeah now you and i have stereo headphones which is not exactly surround sound but it is kind of i don't know that in 1996 five six yeah something they were doing 5.1 dolby surround sound they might have been i don't know yeah maybe maybe.

[10:11] Not on a basic cable like it probably wasn't transmitting is that oh if they're doing surround sound maybe it is just a left right stereo you and i should hear it really well in this episode so let's pay attention to the sound mix i just want to want to note that uh the other thing is soulmates was originally supposed to air after this episode right i think we talked about this last time basically p10 was going to show six episodes and then they would have had a break and then they would have come back with this and then soulmates would have been the next episode after that but the ratings were really good yay babylon five ratings were really good and they didn't want to interfere with that growth so they said they wanted to show a seventh episode instead of six and in order to get this episode ready they would have had to rush through this post production and after effects and stuff like that and they weren't willing to compromise on that soulmates didn't really require much of that so they just moved soulmates up makes sense.

[11:04] And the last bit of thing that is really specific to this episode, because all of these notes are like all about this one episode and, you know, all the behind the scenes stuff. JMS says this. I always have to have a title before I begin writing. Interesting, right? Always have to have a title before I get in writing. Since the title always influences the feel of the show. I try to design one that is literary or refers to a literary influence, has a certain rhythm and avoids coming at the subject of the episode too dead on. I remember what i predicted with soulmates failure on that one yeah but he's probably got a 99.9 success rate on that that's that's phenomenal because his his episode titles are are great agreed you really are it's interesting that he comes up with the title first and then that title influences the feel of the show and the vibe of the show he's going for yeah that's pretty cool yeah it's interesting that's it that's really really all i had from jms there wasn't a lot on this episode. Well, with that Brent, let's go and watch the episode. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. You've picked a heck of a one to start with. This is a great episode, apparently according to us, a really great episode.

[12:11] If you're joining us for the first time though, I want to tell you what happens from here on. Cause it's not like other videos that you're watching here on YouTube or things you're listening to on your podcasting app. We're going to pull up the episode right here. We're going to watch it in real time. Brett and I are going to sit here. We're going to stare at this point of the screen and there's going to be the episode happening we're gonna talk about it do the reaction thing as they do if you're watching us on youtube you're gonna see the edited kind of cut up version of that discussion and if you want to see the unedited the full version of it that's at our patreon page at patreon.com slash babylon five first it's the number five and the word first and if you're listening to the audio on a podcasting app you are going to hear the audio of that full youtube edit because we want you guys a part of that particular show as well because that's honestly we have a lot of conversation mid show So we don't want the folks out there listening to the audio to miss any of that. And then after that, as Jeff said, we're going to come together and we'll talk about any messages. We're going to rank this episode in an all-new ranking that is 100% completely accurate, definitive. And we'll get out of here. So, Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. We've had a lot of Earth Force military transports come through lately, forcing us to root some of our commercial traffic elsewhere. That's setting up grow pose coming up here in a little bit. Good call. Anything else? Just one last item, which also affects the station budget. Oh, yeah. Oh.

[13:35] Is this the quarters thing? Space on Babylon 5 is at a premium. They want us to relocate to smaller quarters and start paying rent. Rent? Yes, sir. 30 credits a week. Starting immediately. And this us would be... You and me, yes. Everyone else is pretty much It's only 30 credits a week, sir. That was a good cutoff. The smaller quarter is actually quite nice. Ivanova, I am not moving and I am not paying the rent. I'll go living down below before I'll pay him a penny. And you can tell those bean counters that they can go to hell. And that's for both of us. Yes, sir. I love this so much. Like just the chemistry between the two, the back and forth. And I love all the budget discussions. We know there's an underground railroad helping unregistered telepaths. Who was your contact? Who's running the operation? I don't know. Hurry, add a little. Is this the first time we have the song? Yeah. The blocking the song? The place was white as snow. Every minute, merry, let the glamour shoot.

[14:40] Music.

[14:47] Hi wifey he's dead doesn't matter i caught it what does he do just before he died betrayed by his final thoughts.

[15:04] Babylon five, there's two things i want to clarify i never said bester didn't do anything wrong i said the people who work on babylon five our main cast never saw him do anything wrong also if you have read the PsyCore trilogy, that gives an entirely different lens on what we just saw. This is literally his job. This is what he has been raised from birth and educated to do. He deeply and truly believes and is reinforced in the culture and society that he lives in. This isn't just his job, it's his duty. It is his obligation. And he's a hero and a paragon of how you're supposed to be. He's living the ideal life as a member of Psycor. That's his belief. That's where he is. I want you to remember this though. Okay. Most of these, uh, principal actors did have run in with Bester a year ago, right? Sheridan surely has read the files and has probably had a conversation about it, at least with Ivanova, maybe Garibaldi. So there is a bit of a preconceived notion here regarding this. That is definitely a preconceived notion. That's what we're going to literally watch play out. Right. But there, but there's this, Hey, we've got to be really careful with this dude here. And so I, there's a comment that I, that I want to talk through a little bit. And it says, it doesn't make him any less of a monster. You're right.

[16:28] And it also, it also begs, like when you make, I'm trying to think of a really good analogy here. When you make a soup and that soup is bad and all you have to do is pay some extra attention to it. maybe add some ingredients, take some stuff out or whatever, you do that. You care for it. You provide it some love and compassion and hope that it can see the other way. You don't just throw it out. If it doesn't get better after you do this stuff, okay, you can throw it out. But if someone is born and lives in a society that makes them a monster, and so we just treat them like a monster, how are we any better than the monsters? Well, I would say that it's okay to do that as long as you know that the person is a monster that you know that you know that the person's a monster and the only way where i'm going to come to your defense on this one jeff is they didn't necessarily know that yet we know what we know we have extra source information we not only have this scene here we also see what happens at the end of the show we know where he's going we know that sheridan calls him out as a fascist at one point we know all of these things we see it plain as day right here. And we can't believe that other people don't see it and don't call it out as hardcore as we do. They don't necessarily have all that information. They don't know that it's a monster. And this goes back to the messages we talk about. You have to hold out hope for.

[17:47] That's a part of what we do we hold out hope and we try to get them there and at some point they're just not gonna do it there's there's another series where a a very smart character comes in contact with a villain as a kid okay like this is a long-standing relationship first meets the villain when the villain is just a kid and the kid's already showing signs of being a villain right and this person corrects him and there's there's pieces where this person never trusts the kid right fast forward they go to school and all this sort of stuff and everybody else loves this kid everybody else and and the teacher says something to the effect of i never saw the the repentance i never saw the change but i gave him the shadow of doubt that maybe there was a change that i just didn't see you know and then he's later asked he's like yeah but you never trust him he's like no no i never trusted him either yeah but i gave him i at least held out hope that he did have a change that maybe i didn't see that others did yeah you know and and that like that's a great thing is is i never saw it but i'm at least going to live in the shadow of a doubt and that doesn't mean i'm going to trust him but i'm not just going to slam them as an evil person all the way around i'm going to keep my eye on them and that's where like a Sheridan should have come in and be like, okay, I've read the reports. I've seen what this is. He needs to form his own opinion. Exactly.

[19:11] I talk to him and form his own opinion is really what Sheridan ought to do here. But yeah, Becky says the thing. And I think she does a really good job.

[19:19] I empathize with Bester because of how deeply indoctrinated he's been by the core, but he's also the person who's responsible for figuring out that he's been indoctrinated and have to want to change. So the question I pose is if I was indoctrinated.

[19:33] And the world that can help me see that I'm indoctrinated and that I'm wrong attacks me, treats me like garbage, never engages with me in any way outside of reinforcing everything that I learned about them that has indoctrinated me. I'm not going to think I'm indoctrinated. They are validating all of the propaganda that he's been fed since birth. There's no clearer image of that than in Cora's mother, Cora's father, where we see him tell the interns, these people are awful. They treat us like garbage. They have no respect there. And then they, first thing to do is walk onto Babylon five. And Zach's like, you're awful. You're terrible. I don't respect. They're both just like, oh my gosh, he's right. We have to kill these people, which is a huge leap and not okay. That's, that's where I'm going to disagree with you. Yeah. Because, and, and I'm actually, I'm going to go with Becky on this.

[20:25] All, everything you're saying lends to why that person is going to be that way. It does not justify it for them, though. We still internally have a code of right and wrong that I think is universal among all people. Okay. Like there's a basic code for what's right and what's wrong. And this is not, this is still something where he knows what he should and shouldn't be doing on a fundamental level. And the idea that he's, here's what we know ultimately. And you may, you may have some insight on this having read the novels where I haven't. They do not see humans as human as equal, right? As equal. Yeah. They do not like you are beneath me, but they've put it in such a spot where not just you're beneath me.

[21:11] Your cattle totally i mean this is this is the whole episode of pretense from stargate if you remember that episode jeff yeah the episode of pretense where they're on trial he's like listen you guys eat you raise cattle you eat your cattle you drink their milk you do all this and you don't feel bad for whenever you kill them for for food we feel the same way about humans or our cattle and and there's just such this arrogance that that goes around with that and i feel like that's what.

[21:34] They truly believe here but it is up to you as the individual to go no that's not good that's that's not right and i can tell you that as somebody who was raised in a situation raised in a spot where i was fed that kind of bullshit and i had to learn to come out of it in the end now not not necessarily to the brainwashing stance inside that bester may have undergone but certainly in a little bit of a i guess a micro cause not it's not even micro pretense is a really good example and i think the difference there is they weren't like oh so you think we're cattle so we're going to kill you they were like no we're going to show you otherwise like there was they gave them an opportunity no one gives best or most people in psych or an opportunity and yeah individuals through in the end of novels there's there's times where bester has doubt when he's younger but the mechanism that is his society course corrects that in a really really aggressive way and to your point about there being a code of like right and wrong yeah but he's literally been programmed with a different code um the the code that i'm talking about supersedes all that code and.

[22:43] Is more in a base code it's a base i think that's a beautiful idea i think it's a beautiful reality so all right let's watch him in front of people now and see if you could help me better understand what it is to be human what would you suggest dinner dinner dinner get it In all my time here.

[23:06] I have rarely sat and just talked with you or with any other human. And I think that I would like to. Talk about what? Anything, everything, except business and negotiations and whose trade agreement is being most unfair to the others. Just talk. We have nothing else in common. What else would we talk about? I'm so invested in this. I'll set it up and get back to you. Down into the screen, though. Is evening OK? Perfect. Until then.

[23:33] Yeah they must have taken it out yeah or there's they're shooting at you the next day they're taking you out to dinner what a universe jordan you're going on a date i love how he just rolls with it though like a sci-corps representative requests an immediate appointment with full command staff that's damn ironic isn't it the core got started because we were afraid of telepaths now they're victims of our own fears we took away every right they had and shoved them into a big black box called psych or now look at him black uniforms jack boots giving orders and days they scare the hell out of me yeah if you ask me we created our own monster and maybe we deserve it.

[24:10] Wow all right give him whatever help he needs keep an eye on him by the way captain i suggest you check the files on mr bester we had a few problems with him last year involving a rogue telepath named ironheart you might want to find out a little bit more about who you're dealing with that's i love that he she tells i think they'll do as we ask you seem awfully confident i am did you scan them i have to say that was brilliant everything that happened in there was was perfect and i think garibaldi summed it up well and i loved sheridan's note looks like we've created our own monster and maybe we deserve it talk about a mirror to society yeah in a really painful way yeah and you know yes it makes me wonder just just just for a point of thought i don't know if there's a conversation to be had, but Garibaldi says, you know, we shoved them in this box because they were a threat and now they've got Jack boots and they're doing all this stuff.

[25:04] When you take a step to control.

[25:10] Enforce, uh, reign in a group, like when does that work out? Right. Like what winds up happening, and this is from history winds up happening is you have one group that tries to enforce rain in another group. Okay. That group gets jackboots. That group becomes a problem. They've created their own problem. What happens is that group then winds up taking power and they wind up reining in a different group and creating different problems with that and then that group's going to get jackboots and go back you know you mentioned yeah i don't remember if we were on mic or off mic but you mentioned you just watched the uh the bell riots episodes of deep space nine with the sanctuary districts and stuff like that timely episode always always a timely episode that's an episode where they reined people in put them in a box and they rose up and stuff happened you know yeah it's some it's it's it's what happens time and time again and yeah we created we created sidecore and sidecore is going to rise up and take over and they're going to take.

[26:16] Normals mundanes whatever we want to call them and they're going to put them into a box and stuff's going to happen and it's just going to perpetuate continue it's just the cycle which is unfortunate the neat wrinkle that the psych or trilogy adds is that the first director of Psycor was meant to never be run by a telepath, but the first director of it was, and he hid it from everyone. And so really kind of set all this up with that end in mind. And that's where, like in a very short amount of time, they became what we see today.

[26:47] You didn't hear that? What? Open up, drop the walls. You're not supposed to open up and drop the walls. Sorry, it's all background noise. They're here. I was right. Delanna asks if that means Bester doesn't put his walls up. I think that it was directed. I don't know, maybe. Look, we knew this was going to happen sooner or later. So what we have to do now is warn the runner and get the hell out of here. I know. I know Bester will try to stop us. So we don't have any choice. We have to kill him. There's no leap there at all. It's totally reasonable. I mean, they couldn't, like, zip tie his hands together and put him in a closet or anything. That's not reasonable. And yeah, she's not dressed for a date at all, Brent. I mean, that's not even almost date outfit. Not even close, right? I mean, Sheridan's not either. And we're not in a nice, quiet restaurant with a candle on the table. I mean, she's even got the showy thing. Right.

[27:44] You got a hair, dude? No, no, not at all. I mean, it's very attractive. Please. Yeah, one minute you're shooting them out of the sky, Sheridan, and the next you're staring at her gazongas. Something I can do for you? That right there is the moment she fell in love with him. Oh, my God. He's willing to fight. It appears my choice was successful. I do think it's weird he still has his hand communicator on. He's on call 24-7. I don't care. It's still, like... They got to stick with that for the episode, because that's the whole point of the apartment thing. An operation like this couldn't work without support from someone inside the station. I figured it was you. Nuts. Well, have a good time figuring it out. Me? I'm going to go back to my quarters and get some sleep. That's great, though. He's not wrong, right? About her he is.

[28:35] Watch Rebo and Zooty. This does seem very strange to you. No other race we've encountered has anything similar. Oh, then you're in for a big shock. Back on Earth, we have the laughing Buddha. And then there's the school of Zen mysticism that teaches enlightenment through laughter. It would appear that we have much more in common than we imagined. Yeah. Oh, there it is. There it is. Oh, that's so good. That was so good. I love that scene. That was natural. It made sense. Good. I do agree, Katrin. It wasn't intended as a date, but 100% that ended as a date. Sure. He straight up fell for her there at the end. He was like, oh, no. Hey, listen, I'm going back to what we've said so many times before. This show did so good at slow rolling. The charity relationship. You know what it's like when telepats make love, Commander. He came to say goodbye, Commander. I give you a gift. It's a magic eraser. The only gift. the only gift I have to give. And the penny looks like, just can't get it out of the way it's a good reminder he's been in my mind twice today why hasn't he seen this.

[29:45] Was that the other part of the gift something just struck me I told you I did my diatribe but I'm gonna jump was it a penny it did it hurt so bad broke the skin Brett we look at these episodes in terms of like oh my gosh Bester sucks, Bester's awful I don't think that's the point.

[30:02] That psych or man like we're missing the point when we focus on bester it's the whole point psych or sucks but who is in control of psych or somebody else bester is not i mean it's the the institution sucks and bester is a product of the institution that's a fair thing to say does not mean that bester is right does not mean that bester is justified does not mean that bester is excused from the choices and the actions that he has chosen to make so right you're doing the thing i'm saying that was wrong we're focused on bester we're not supposed to be i'm not no no what i what i'm doing is i'm not absolving bester from his own choices of what he's done but i'm also acknowledging he is a product of the institution which is the real evil and the real threat because had bester been raised in a different situation how different does he turn out oh i think dramatically is bester a product of nature or is he a product of nurture and i think we're going to go with he's a product of nurture on this one i think so i love that she's like waiting she's like forget it millions for defense but not one penny for tribute all right then what do you suggest guns that's your suggestion i was gonna say is that a is that like a subtle i think so they can't scan us if they don't catch us we just have to make sure we don't get caught You're only in trouble if he's gone. Do it again.

[31:32] They say it with the joy of Catholic mass. But it's very interesting to see the different races of people here that have come together as the women. You've got a black man, you've got a Native American, you've got a female, I see male, I see a nondescript ethnic man. Comfortable? Couldn't be better. Good. he's gonna take a hard line with these people susan show a moment's weakness yes sir i heard a good one today i like this how many minbari does it take to screw in a light bulb i don't know sir how many minbari does it take to screw in a light bulb none they always surrender right before they finish the job and they never tell you why his laughs go great oh it's a bottomless response that's the best who's there kosh kosh who gesundheit also this is where we did our thing kosh who exactly were you like this when you were married.

[32:30] Which time? The first one or the second one? Well, at least I'm an intelligent life form. I think now we know why Lockley left him. That's it right there. I think I like that. I just really like the two of them together. They just play really well off of each other. It feels really natural. Not in a... But in their own way. It works. Hey, Jeff, have you ever noticed that he's only ever using his right hand? What? Have you ever noticed that? keep an eye on things for us he's made it made it made it get down.

[33:14] Exciting music it's me they were after wesley took her in order to get to you has that thought ever occurred to you now that you manage to save your own skin won't do them any good.

[33:22] She doesn't know anything that could hurt me or the core doesn't get it does he i i remember being really impacted by this the first time around yeah the idea that bester is so consumed with himself doesn't even notice he's like even with like hey you know they could have taken her to get to you well it doesn't matter it wouldn't have hurt me anyway so let her let them have it which goes.

[33:44] To show bester's own attitude not just toward normals or mundanes but even towards his own kind his own people which you and i can see and now these guys jeff right in front of the command staff they see the same thing and hear the same thing you and i are seeing which is this dude's an asshole he is a self a conceited self-aggrandizing asshole yeah yep and it's garibaldi right there there it is people yeah hey wake up the hell with what you honestly jeff this scene lies in the face of every theory you've ever posted about buster also this is the first time yeah but up to this point this is the first time i'm like this is out of line 100 he's out of line here but and the command staff is right here to see it yeah all right sheridan hasn't met bester really before this point wait he did whatever briefly yeah this this is where it all comes from jeff he does it doesn't know she could be dead right garibaldi you should have told her she was missing as soon as you called in if you're this worried mr garibaldi i suggest you double your efforts to find these people i agree 100 narcissist horrible evil all the.

[34:53] Self stuff also sheridan was right to call garibaldi out i get i get though where garibaldi is coming from coming from it's not we're able to do that other layer of mundanes and telepaths and is looking at that to garibaldi here's someone that he cares about that bester's just like i don't care i'm fine this could have been franklin or anybody else and garibaldi would have had the exact same response he's correct to have it and he's wrong to have had it what no no no no say that again he's correct to have had that response as a human worried about someone he cares about he was wrong to have that response as a professional in a professional conversation that's why sheridan was correct to call him out in that moment don't you think that sometimes it is correct to have the unprofessional thing happen knowing that it's going to get called out sometimes here's an example baseball okay sometimes it is correct for the coach to go out there and lose his mind on an umpire knowing he's going to get thrown out knowing that he's making a fool of himself knowing that all of that's going to happen but it riles up his team and leads them on to the win yeah it it is wrong ergo and it is right more than one thing can be true i so it might be wrong but it also might be right that's exactly what i'm saying exactly what i'm saying well i don't know if it's more either one than the other but it is more right in fact i'm going to say at least in the situation of the baseball it's not wrong at all that's what you're supposed to do. Well, in baseball, that is the play.

[36:21] Like, yeah, that's a play. And here in this office, Garibaldi losing his shit, knowing that Sheridan's going to call him out and it's going to be okay.

[36:29] But making a point, that is the play. I imagine lawyers do the same thing in, in court all the time. I think they push too hard. They push too hard and they allow the, they allow the judge to, to call them out or whatever, but they've said what they've had to say in front of the jury. And it's, it's there. Everyone's in on that play. Baseball court, everyone's in on it garibaldi was in on this one that's not okay and it's right okay i just heard jeff say that it's right so i'm gonna be satisfied with that and continue that's fair yeah to ben's point it was definitely in character.

[36:58] Hundred percent what do you want from me i want you to understand just heard from the people running the underground railroad they've got talia no no no she's okay they haven't heard her and they don't intend to they want to arrange a meeting between you and the head of the operation i love what dude just said i just want you to understand meetings off and if i don't come what happens to tell you nothing this isn't a hostage situation captain the situation is spinning out of control they're they're trapped they're trying to find a way out without anyone else getting hurt and you think i can trust them yes knowing what we know this is so obvious i can't tell you right now i guess you're just gonna have to trust me yeah i'm not comfortable doing that yet dr franklin when and where took away your freedom and you wear that badge and those gloves every day of your life while you are among normals keeps you separate from them from each other pending afraid you're distorting everything am i this guy's great best to shut your friend iron heart He was a rogue runaway just like us. You know, his whole speech pattern and everything, it's just him as an actor. Yeah, exactly. His look, everything, it's just him. There's nothing affected here with him. And that's why people hire him. It's because he has this exotic look. I know we've had our problems in the past, but I'm not the enemy. We have the same concerns, you and I. We want to protect our own and protect Earth. Yeah, who are our own, Buster.

[38:22] Would it interest you to know that I married Mr. Garibaldi? After two years, they picked another P-11 and said I had to marry him. I wanted to increase the odds of grieving a P-12 or higher. When she was born, they took her from me. Turns out that maybe we met back to one in that episode of Legends. Now it's something else. I know it. You know it. I really like kind of letting him tell the stories. He's coming in to reinforce the points. So what do you expect me to do? Snap my fingers and make it all go away. It's almost like he's, uh... You're asking me to take everything I believe and turn it upside down. Why? Your friend Ironheart is my friend too. They experimented on both of us. They pushed me up here. God, that would be such a better thing than Remember Byron would be Ironheart is my friend too. Went further than I did. Went further than anyone will ever go again. When he escaped, I went with him. I've set all this up. I know he touched you.

[39:17] I know he gave you something. I know you can help us if you want to. She doesn't know that she can help you. It's interesting to me that where he says, why are you, she says, why are you doing this? Because you're special. Not because she's a telepath. Not because he cares about her as a person and wants to free her from the shackles of Psycor. But because you can do something for us. Now, I want to be super clear. What the Underground Railroad is doing is amazing, awesome. They're doing God's work. And they're the, quote, good guys in this whole thing. No question. But I do find it fascinating that in order to get her to help, it's, well, one, they want her to help because she's of who she is, not what she is. And the techniques they're using to do it are 100% the same, very similar ones that Sycor uses to flip to the other side. It's the only tactics they know. I got to tell you, though, two thoughts. One, they want her because of what they can do for us. And the thing is, all you is included in the group of us. They're trying, they're trying to do this thing, not just for themselves, but for all telepaths. Call you as a telepath. They're doing it also for her.

[40:25] Yes. No, no, because if that's the case, this is what he says. Why are you telling me this? Because you're a telepath and you matter and you're special. You can make a difference for people, but nope, you have special powers. We need your special powers. He's just not been through the star fleet leadership Academy. me he doesn't know to say it like that yeah here's here's the other thought though okay i know you're comparing this to a brainwashing session i gotta tell you though hey here's all these people that you think are bad and awful and evil i feel like we constantly go back to this but my god here's all these people that you think are bad and awful and evil okay here's what we're gonna do we're gonna sit you down we're gonna get a whole train of these people that you think are bad awful and evil and we're just gonna let them come tell you their stories you know what happens when you hear people's stories, people's history, people's reason for being the way they are. You know what happens? It changes you. It changes how you view them. It, it does this magical thing where you stop looking at them as this group, this inhumane group, and you start assigning individuality and humanity to each and every single one of them, all of a sudden they begin to matter. And the key difference.

[41:32] Between the psych or brainwashing thing that does this where i'm sure they have people telling stories and whatever but this is this is truth actual experience truth it's not bent it's not slanted it's not meant to say things it's just this is what i experienced and it was horrible i gotta tell you um before.

[41:52] All of this hit okay if you remember a few years ago the whole george floyd stuff black lives matter really was amping up kind of kind of still fairly fresh you know it was still a fairly new thing and i remember sitting there i was one of those people i was like didn't we fix racism like because i grew up in the 90s right we were like mission accomplished well yeah the only people that were really racist was my grandparents okay my dad maybe a little bit and once they die once they go away this is done done finished our generation and on we're good growing up 20 years later and i by the way i'm also listening to nwa and they're talking about the stuff they're talking about and i'm just not even hearing it but 20 years later all of this happens and people are like yeah racist this is that and the other i'm like what are you talking about and you know what wound up happening i made a very poignant decision to shut up and start listening and go hello you my black friend what is your story and not try to explain it away not try to justify nothing to take it just tell me your experience in your story really it was like i had no idea hello my other friend over here because it turns out i have more than one friend who's black jeff tell me you're like i started asking them hey what have you ever experienced this am i just a dodo bird here am i dumb tell me your experience they were all glad to tell me their experience you know and all of a sudden i started listening to people's stories and you know what happened it changed me yep it changed my attitude on the whole thing and i realized you know what no we didn't we didn't i think we might have gotten.

[43:21] Somewhat a little bit close and then we've regressed we've gone backwards you.

[43:25] Know but i don't think we were close like actually close to being done with it no it was always still there well you and i've talked about it the difference between what we call southern racism and pacific northwest racism.

[43:38] Like we all think of racism like the we're being very general and these are our terms but we think of racism as southern racism you word this and that stuff whereas up here we're all just as bad we have really great language around it oh no we're here to we're inclusive we're protective also we're gonna put you over here where you don't have these opportunities at least the quote southern racism it's right to your face and you know what's happening i i love what andrew says over here in our oh yeah we regressed because we thought we won and then stopped working on it oh my gosh that'll preach that you know what i tell my kid all the time but he's he's working out now ready for football and all this sort of stuff like son i'll tell you what you can't ever stop because as soon as you stop you're gonna go backwards so what do you mean i said son if you want to keep what you have got you have to keep doing the things you did to get it yep but anyway and i think yeah Point being, when you sit down and you talk to other people and find out their stories and you have the gall to shut up and just listen, kind of like Talia did, it changes you. And I'm telling you, you'll have your thoughts and your ideas. It'll bump up against that stuff, and it's going to break your brain for a little bit. And I think that's what we're seeing happen with Talia here is her brain is breaking right now.

[44:57] Like, you know, she's trying to figure it out. Yeah and i think like the key difference we just to kind of take it back really quick we're hearing individuals this is reinforcing your point individuals their personal stories at psychore they're going to classrooms and labs and these things and hearing it taught to them they're not actually experiencing it it's why people's stories are so important it's.

[45:18] Why you and i share our stories as much as we can exactly on this show you know and in other places wherever we can we share our stories and we listen and we try to hear other people's stories it's why we look for the messages and lift those things up shine a light on them exactly all right here we go it's really good lighting they're done there yeah great production notice the sound effects i'm not hearing anything special it sounds good but yeah i thought the message said for me to come alone it did well don't you think your presence might scare off the guy who's running this operation i am not really considering i am the guy running this operation uh you're fired one a hell of a good explanation for this doctor right i think he does captain and i think you should listen to him listen i think you should listen to all of them back on earth i heard things genetic manipulation breeding telepaths against their well so-called relocation camps for rogue telepaths that aren't much better than concentration camps but we couldn't just keep moving them around like checkers we had to get them away from earth in principle i agree with what you're doing but there are laws and whether I like them or not I'm a soldier I am honor bound to obey the law and as a doctor I'm honor bound to help the, So what am I supposed to do now? Juxtapose that with season four Sheridan. Okay.

[46:38] Telling Captain What's-His-Face, who was his teacher back in the academy. Are you an automaton that just blindly follows orders? Or are you here to follow lawful orders that make sense? What are you here to do? I wonder if that's growth and evolution for Sheridan or if it's just he's looking at them differently because these aren't orders he was received. It's the law. It came from somewhere else. I think of the Star Trek episode, Jeff.

[47:01] Sorry. I think of the Star Trek. i want to say it's a star trek episode you'll probably know it when i start talking about it or it's not a star trek episode at all but basically i want to say it was picard talking about how starfleet doesn't want automatons to come in and just push out missions and follow orders and do all this they want people who can think they want people who know the the difference between right and wrong and people who aren't who are who are able to take what they're given take the orders they have and the rules that they're meant to follow and apply it to the situation that you're in that start tell me that was an episode i'm sure it was i'm positive it was positive and other things as well sure but that's i mean that's so what we have here and and you know ideally this is why we have judges you know a judicial system is to take the law and apply it not blindly and broadly and coldly but in light of the circumstance and what's going on and what do we mean by it what is this piece where where do we have it it's it's what you have to do as a parent all the time yeah i have certain rules okay well why did you break that rule well my sister was about to be under a bed that was about to collapse oh that's why you went and did whatever you did that would normally get you in really big trouble cool.

[48:15] Context matters yeah there's the letter of the law in the spirit of the law and like it's it's Yeah. If I turn you in, and right now I'm more than a little tempted, I embarrass the station, Earth Central, and give the folks back home one more reason to shut us down. If I don't turn you in, I'm an accomplice. No.

[48:34] There's a third option. It's coming. The problem that Franklin and his whole thing for Franklin is he took all this stuff and he made it Sheridan's problem. Made it Babylon 5's problem. I wouldn't feel bad about that. Yeah. It's time. We're going to bring you into this. It's time. Yep. I remember you. And I remember you. That's why I started all this. Listen to me. You have nothing to be afraid of. Come back with me. You won't be harmed. Of course they will. Talia? you'll destroy them inch by inch is a lesson to the rest you want to keep us frightened and isolated not just from normals but from each other that's the real reason we wear gloves isn't it to keep us apart but what happens when the gloves come off don't force me to, it's not working, someone is fighting us i remember how that's i love this so good so good.

[49:41] I'd have preferred to take a few alive but better to set an example the main thing is leader's gone, cut off the head the body dies with it you had me going for a moment there the core is mother the core is father I know where my loyalties lie did evil talking right, within 20 minutes I didn't want them asking these people any questions and I don't want to answer any myself will of course deny all knowledge of this unfortunate.

[50:10] Of course, Jeff, if they would have left this right here and not done what they're about to do, which I love the way that I love how they pulled one over on best. I love that. And how they pulled it over on us. Yeah. It's so good.

[50:23] But honestly, looking back at it now, if they would have stopped it right there and let this actually be the story that would have happened.

[50:31] All of a sudden, this is what Talia is. And we know now this would have made everything so much better. Slow play behind the scenes. Quiet. Just. yeah and we know oh jeff this is let this be that programming that has come out and taken a little bit of assertion and then it goes back into right whatever like make us like what the hell was that and she's like i don't know what you're talking about or whatever yeah like oh my gosh jeff this would have just been awesome awesome you know texas and the truck says yeah the problem with that is they didn't know she was gonna leave i don't care yeah we know whatever it would have it would have been cool no but i was gonna say even if she wasn't gonna leave if they're still they're gonna slow play this out for the next four seasons three and a half seasons let this be the place where it starts introduce evil talia now and we know it nobody else knows it but we know it yeah an illusion a telepathic projection now as far as best is concerned underground railroad is dead along with its leader he won't press the issue because he doesn't want to be linked to a bunch of dead bodies go quiet and talia is off scot-free all i have to pro cycle and avoid seeing him before he goes if he suspects anything he might scan you and you don't have the defenses to block him and no more underground railroad babylon five's gotten too hot for it others will.

[51:54] You know too much if bester scans you can you keep him out she's like yeah i think so jason's little gift gave you more than you know when we lived back there shouldn't have worked with a side cop you tipped the balance i felt it when we were joined you are more than you think you are then what am i the future god the seeds are planted so well so well captain you won't have a problem keeping an eye on it will you no no problem at all good well see you next time miss winters like he thinks she's all in that's so brilliant there's a great gift right there of the best one it's so great too does he know what does he know i um can't go into details but in light of recent events i think we need to reevaluate our relationship.

[52:49] Which is just a formal way of saying that i want to touch you with my hand i say the same thing to my wife you're the only one i can think of she just needs a friend right now here offends you no you don't offend me but that does this isn't romantic this is just really good friends like a friendship forming right with very what's been happening this entire time yeah i also love ivana enforcing her boundaries too like you're great not that it's interesting she's got it standing up in that way almost as if they did it for the camera the camera's here here okay i'll just i'll set it there you ever notice that the psycor badge is basically in the same shape that uh the superman logos in it is isn't it 100 that was intentional because i wonder if that means is JMS is psych or because he became Superman. Well, it's fake. It's fake Superman. It's not really Superman. Bizarro Superman.

[53:53] Right. Brent, listeners, viewers, I count Talia Winters as part of the main crew. She, even though she's not a paid member of Earth Alliance, she interacts with them on a regular basis. They talk about things and whatever. In this episode, Bester, not only in front of the command staff.

[54:13] Behaved like a narcissistic piece of absolute human garbage, but also outright said to Talia.

[54:20] We murdered these people. It's a good thing. We're going to deny it.

[54:23] Hush hush i'm a horrible person everyone now knows i am retracting my statement that the command staff should have no reason to treat him the way they do what did i say an unbiased assessment was what i was going to offer that is what i have offered welcome to the light jeff welcome to the light i'm just not going to sit and assume hey all the stuff i need to be shown and i was shown but there's so much happening especially in this episode they i mean right in front of your your entire theory crafting of where this goes literally just fell by the wayside in two scenes in this episode and that's okay and that's the way it should have been um i also still think that zach was horrible and that was not an appropriate response and it validated what they'd been taught and it's still not great which is a lesson and we'll talk about it when we get to that episode i think those two things are separate mutually independent of each other agreed agreed you know i i do so that's it there you go well i don't think there's anything else for us to discuss we i mean we talked about it all during the episode honestly we talked about messages during the episode already we don't really need to rehash any of them jeff were there any messages or any thoughts that we didn't discuss during the episode you'd like to bring it bring out here i just did the that's really all that i've got from it and the thing we talked about i just got to say it again god this would have been so awesome if it was evil talia coming up would have been amazing just stop it right there let all those people die let that have happened let the bad guy win on this one oh my gosh from a narrative standpoint would have been so good mm-hmm.

[55:53] Would have been so good and it could have happened this early you know could have happened this early yeah we loved it the first time around i loved it here sheridan's solution to the whole rent thing so good and again like they're just great sheridan and ivanova are fantastic together, i really dug it is there anything else that you had you wanted to bring up yeah i just want to point this out and i don't know if this is what we said earlier when we talked about how the a plot and b plot dovetail really nicely together okay we talked quite a bit about talia sitting they're listening to the stories of the people yeah you've.

[56:25] Got the people on this side the rogue telepaths on this side you've got talia and psychor on the other side talia sitting her finally listening and she's finding out something that she has more in common with them than she originally thought okay flash over to sheridan and delin having dinner they're talking back and forth and it's a much more jovial conversation and delin literally says i guess we have much more in common than we thought that i love the way these two show what happens when you sit down and have a conversation with somebody here's the prescription i'm gonna give i'm gonna issue this as a challenge find somebody different than you and go to dinner with them yeah it doesn't have to be a date just be careful what dress you buy it could become a date we don't want to take that off the table would become a date if you're if you're both consenting right things happen but find somebody different go take them out to dinner and see and see what happens i just listen to their stories and and ask this question do we have more in common than i thought delen putting herself out in the chat willing to go on dates just heads up i don't know if i should just put that on blast but hey maybe you'll maybe you'll get something good i don't know but yeah catchphrase exactly don't assume it's a date unless you say it's one and it could become one but brent to your point not only is it that they found something in common in both cases they sat with the intent to bring their truth right the the people sharing their stories with tolly were sharing.

[57:50] Their experience the truth that they experienced with her in a true and honest way sheridan and delen sat down there was no pretense if it was a date there would have been some pretense there would have been expectation the expectation was we're gonna talk and so they both brought their two true selves but they i mean they also both dressed up they did their hair they went to someplace nice so there was some thought of what it could well i think that was more of a show my best foot forward kind of a thing i think it was more of a show of mutual respect than anything else okay.

[58:24] Yeah the truth man it's all about the truth ben ben points out there is that story that is definitely in becoming superman i think it might be in claude's biography as well where jms picks her up in a limo full of roses for not a date yeah oh shoot we're on a date which then quickly changed their relationship a little bit moving forward awkward yeah yeah so well brent now it's your turn this week with a huge task as we are creating the absolute that 100 completely accurate definitive ranking of all the episodes season two of babylon five right now our top five um fifth place we have revelations fourth a distant star third points of departure the geometry of shadows and soulmates in the top spot where brent are you going to put a race through dark places yeah this one actually is is relatively easy for me um this is a top three episode what's not easy is where does it go in the top three it's going to be a top three episode though okay is it better than soulmates there's a lot that you could say is makes this episode so much better than soulmates i just enjoyed soulmate.

[59:37] Soulmates so much more i really did okay geometry of shadows i gotta tell you i look at geometry of shadows in the number two spot and i remember where we had it in the first one i'm like did we oversell it on this watch through no we didn't because this is 100 completely accurate and definitive where is this episode and i can't help but think of this episode in the grander scheme of everything and while i like this episode and i enjoy this episode i think soulmates and geometry shadows were just that much better wow but this is a top three episode i'm not taking anything away from this episode this is our new number three episode Jeff. Okay. Wow.

[1:00:14] New number three episode. You got it. What's fascinating in your placement. I love it. I don't disagree, but in our final ranking of the first time viewing, it was a top three episode in the final ranking. We had long twilight struggle as number one coming of shadows at number two and a race through dark places in number three. Interesting. Interesting. I, um, I wouldn't be shocked if this wound up a top five episode by the time we were all said and done. I say, I say, yeah, yeah. And then I look at some of the other episodes and I'm like, maybe, yeah, maybe. I think i think this episode in a ranking right now honestly suffers from knowing where it goes yeah knowing where the story goes uh where we didn't know that the first time around um, but this is a good episode all the way around it really it's it's entertaining it's it keeps your attention this is as of right now and jeff we should maybe do this yeah rank the bester episodes.

[1:01:08] Oh this is hand over fist better than mind war i'm gonna make the note hand over fist better than mind war um and bester i think in my mind this seals bester as a major uh character in the babylon 5 universe how many episodes we get with bester overall 10 maybe maybe not even that seven come on council chambers i know you guys right you got this on tap i was gonna say i know you guys know right off the top of your head but bester is a major character in the in the babylon 5 and this is the episode i think that really cements his status yeah in the universe here before this he was a sort of villain he was a guy who came in once he was a guy from star trek we knew yep oh look at that how cool is that yeah i'm actually like i'm 12 12 times that's okay just over 10 yeah this is a moment it's bittersweet right so we're done with the brace the dark places but next week brent next week is the coming of shadows our number two episode in the first time uh-huh yeah we are uh we are hitting we're hitting a stride here do you remember what your prediction not what you thought of the episode but you're what you predicted a coming the coming of shadows was going to be about yeah i basically said whatever the shadows are because we really didn't know at this point right we had inklings but we didn't know at this point I said, whatever the shadows are, they're going to bust on the scene and everyone is going to know who they are by the end of the episode.

[1:02:38] That's what, that's what it is. There you go. What about you?

[1:02:41] I said that there are big capital S shadows and little S shadows. The biggest shadows are like the shadow monster things that we saw. The little S are all the other things like.

[1:02:53] The Earth Force stuff, the Earth Alliance stuff, the Londo, Jakar, the Centauri Narn, all the other awful things that are going on. And so I felt that this was going to be a Londo and a Jakar episode where a rift between Jakar and the Kari was going to open the door for the shadows to openly attack. We're going to talk about that next week. I am very excited for this episode. I'm sure you are, Brent. I'm sure all of you watching and joining us, listening to us are also excited. This is like a big deal. This is a big deal episode. I am excited. So be here next week. Same place, same time. In fact, if you really like Coming of Shadows, you could catch us in all the places we are, right? We're on podcasting apps. There is a podcasting app called Good Pods where we have been the number one Star Trek podcast for a couple of years now. Which is fascinating because not a Star Trek podcast is literally in the title of our show. But it's there but go check it out there check it out on YouTube see all the cool stuff come check out our Patreon where you can see the neat things watch it everywhere you can while you're there subscribe.

[1:04:01] Like hit the stars turn on the bell notifications all those cool things it's fantastic when those things happen if you leave us a review or something we might read it here on the show I love doing that but the one single thing you can do that really truly makes a difference Brent and I love more than anything is you can share this show with someone word of mouth. That's the way we grow our community. So share the show with someone who loves Babylon five or needs to get into it for the first or second time. So with that, we're going to go ahead and close out this week. Yeah. Brent, what, uh, what is up? You know, we, we talked a lot today about sitting down with other people and sharing your stories, you know? So I think I'd like to do that. So my friend, Jeff, just sit right there.

[1:04:46] And you'll hear a tale oh don't don't do this brand come on it's already we've already gone so long just know a tale of a fateful trip that started, from a tiny port aboard a tiny ship oh my god for crying out loud i mean we're not some some deep space franchise. This station is about something.