Acts of Sacrifice | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters. Then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, picking up on all those things there's no possible way we could have picked up on the first time around. We are still doing the thing that we do jeff i have to tell you this is something that has started permeating me in other podcasts i do what brent does podcast outside of bad nerds yeah so do i and i'm sure jeff does every once in a while too um it happens we do that and we cheer each other on we have an open podcasting relationship we do we do although you're still my boot you're still my my main my main school we're still primary oh my god i think that's what they call it i think Yeah, there it is. There it is.

[1:26] But this has become so ingrained in what we do. I have started doing this with other shows that have nothing to do with sci-fi, that have nothing to do with anything even related to what we're doing here. I just find myself searching for those sci-fi messages, asking what episodes are about and what they're trying to tell us. Are they holding up a mirror to society? Are they giving us hope that things can be better in the future? Or are they just telling us how to be better human beings to one another, which, oh my gosh, we could certainly use more of that. Now, that being said, a word of warning to anybody who is joining us, who has not seen Babylon five.

[2:10] This show is specifically for folks who have been all the way through the series. Jeff and I actually have the perfect show for you. It's called Babylon five for the first time. This is for the second time. trust us it's better this way stop this right now go listen to our episode on acts of sacrifice from the first one when you get all the way through the series trust us you're gonna want to do the second watch do this one then because from here on out this show is full of spoilers that one was no spoilers this one has all the spoilers from any point in the franchise Because canon, non-canon, on-screen, off-screen, whatever it is, we have fair game, fair access to talk about anything from this point forward. You have been warned. And with that in mind, we are watching the episode Acts of Sacrifice for the second time this week. Yeah. We watched this the first time. Brent, I got to be honest with you. I didn't remember. I don't remember a lot about this one. I remember for our audio listeners behind Brent, he's got a picture from the episode. And yeah, it's a Ivanova with her, uh, the Lumati diplomat. And that was the thing I remember. Do you remember that name?

[3:27] I got some stuff that sticks around for me. But yeah, this one didn't leave a huge impression on me, to be honest. There's that whole Ivanova line, and then I think there's some Londo stuff in this one. Do you remember what you thought of this one? I'm going to read you my note here exactly, which, by the way, I write these. I do these a season at a time, and I try to remember what that is. So here's what I wrote. I don't even remember this title. I got nothing. It wasn't until I started doing the research on it that I was like, oh, that's what happens. And even still doing the research the only thing i really remember is the whole avon of a thing now we remember this scene we talked about the scene throughout the run of of the first time every once while we revisited it every once while i couldn't have told you it came from this episode i honestly couldn't tell you what else happens in this episode and that's after doing the research on it.

[4:18] I really don't remember anything about this episode outside of avonava really making a fool out of herself and i remember the conversation we had surrounding that which was quite it's something i think people should hear i think so too we had a really good conversation around it yeah in fact i just listened to it would you like to hear some of the highlights from that listen was there any highlights from that listen couple there's a couple okay great let's do it uh first off um yeah you your your comment on the episode was it said a lot but it didn't do a lot and you did not like and you're thinking i don't like this at all you did not like this episode at all did i not like it but i didn't hate it either like i just had like no feelings towards it or like did i not like it and i really didn't like it you really didn't like it okay and you acknowledge it's saying some things like we had we had a pretty intense like you just alluded to conversation around messages and things like that. Yeah. I stated that your recap, for those of you who for some reason didn't listen to our first time, go around one of the popular segments of that was we would write these really fun recaps.

[5:27] And my statement was that your recap was much more exciting than the episode itself. You said, this all has to come around to the redemption of Londo Malari. And it better happen sooner than later. I really hope this doesn't stretch on for seasons and seasons. oh my god are you serious yeah wake up brett guess what.

[5:51] Nailed that one it's gonna take a little bit for that to come around spoiler alert it literally takes the rest of the show i said the very ending of the series will either be us getting to finally see kosh and we'll learn that all of this stuff was being kind of puppet mastered by the vorlon all along or it's going to be the conclusion of the story of londo my statement was babylon five is the story of londo malari jeff you couldn't have nailed that we have heard that so many times from from other babylon fan five fans when we got to the end of like hey really the story of babylon five is the story of londo malari and it started his voice at the very beginning of the gathering and it in it really goes all the way it is his story in many many aspects that's true i i would agree with high five to you jeff for nailing that let's get this one.

[6:43] One nothing cooler than high five nothing cool about that at all you were very angry like very angry that Ivanova is wearing only one earring and we're just supposed to accept that with no backstory no context or anything like that I still agree I love that they have that out there I love that's a character thing we need the backstory in context guess what we have it now yeah it comes along after quite a while we gotta wait till the movies for that so then brett we talked a lot like a lot about the scene uh behind you the lumati as a culture and and then the the ceiling of the deal we talked we kind of sums up and we said that ivanova's response to the whole thing was very smart and it was absolutely ridiculous that she even had to engage in it in the first place. Absolutely. I still believe that.

[7:37] We had an interesting conversation though, where you talked about if sealing the deal in the way that they do it as part of their culture, we don't want to take anything away from that culture, right? Like what do you do when something is so repulsive and wrong to you through your cultural lens, but it's appropriate and right for theirs? Like who are we to question those things? And we had a pretty deep dive conversation around around that like honoring the things in other cultures that don't seem right to ours i mean that's a conversation that sci-fi i think.

[8:16] Is uniquely situated to engage in absolutely and it sci-fi does it best star trek does that one all the time you can you can pull that one through so many different sci-fi series out there and babylon five really puts that on display in many many different situations a few weeks ago we saw it with the drazi right you know and like how can you do this thing uh-huh so good conversation I look forward to us possibly diving into some of that. We watch it this time as well. You, sir, though, scoured the internet for things that, uh, Joe.

[8:50] Michael Straczynski might've said about this episode. What, uh, what did you find in talking about just having written this episode? He talks about the title of it and he says this, despite its rather ominous title, this is just a slice of life episode. He did say though, it probably, it contains probably the funkiest, weirdest sequence I have ever written full tilt wacko. I'm assuming that's the sequence right here probably yeah it's the illuminati the lumati sequence with avonema by the way the illuminati the lumati are i don't have it in my note here but i'm sure that i saw he said that's the same thing in fact because he invoked the names of newt and dole really talk about where this came from and i'll leave that to any of you political historical historians out there to know who those two people are he does talk about Londo I like what he had to say here he says Londo is a fascinating character to explore it's the most careful balancing act of the entire bunch part of the character's appeal is that on a very fundamental level you like him hey you know what I loved Londo 100 I still love Londo you don't want to see him on this terrible slide downward and that's I mean it you're just watching him careening downwards you know you're like stop every so often though you have to pull him back and go in a different direction remind us of his basic humanity and potential for heroism.

[10:17] He is really any of us caught in a web of events spinning more and more out of control every day which for all the stuff that londo is at fault out for all the things that he has to take responsibility for and he does take responsibility for them ultimately he does i have to wonder, Because I don't think that my personal life experience is unique. I feel like my personal life experience is actually rather common to the human experience. I understand what it is that to have a web of events that spends more and more out of control every day and you're just doing your best that truthfully.

[10:54] At the core of your being, you are a good person. You want to be a good person but things in life and circumstance things happen and you make crappy choices every once in a while yeah you know what i mean just and that was a really bad.

[11:11] Decision you just made and it doesn't mean you're a bad person it's interesting because i think about you know um the idea oh this is this was it's been interrogated in a lot of different sci-fi but the idea that you know when things are great it's easy to uphold your values that you espouse and all those things and when things get hard or you get sucked into a thing like that yeah that's what really separates the the wheat from the chaff as it were and you know with Londo specifically what we see is him stuck in this web of events yeah and consistently not being able to stick well it's interesting right because he sticks to oftentimes the centauri values that he was raised with but we know that Londo holds a different set of values yeah that he kind of let's go but we get to watch like that battle between the two sets happen and then eventually he wins out but wow so many people die in that wake it left a lot of a lot of wake i i just i feel like there this could be an entire podcast unto itself and i don't want to dwell on this too much but it really listening to reading what jms said about this piece of londo i i just think there's so much to talk about with londo malari as a character his character arc and what it says to the human experience but i love this idea you've got to pull him out every once in a while and remind you that actually he's a good dude yeah so i don't know what that means in today's episode i really don't remember so i'm excited actually to see what what we're gonna do there was a question that someone asked.

[12:37] If Sheridan had been the one to show the Lumati around, we talked about this in our discussion too. Oh, did we? Yeah, yeah. What did we say? Is this because it's an Ivanova, a female thing, or is this a Sheridan thing? And we were almost like, if this was Sheridan doing the thing and he was doing the same thing, that prompted us on the conversation of who are we to question someone else's culture? Okay. Let me provide a definitive answer for that. Okay. From the man himself. Yes. If sheridan had been the one to go around he would have been the one who was proposition okay so it is truly a cultural thing it's truly a cultural thing and to that he taught us here did i i don't think i got it down here i didn't i didn't write it down but basically he talked about how throughout human civilized history this is how a lot of deals have been sealed over time.

[13:27] Egyptian culture medieval culture lots of other cultures he just is this this that and the other This is how they seal a lot of deals. I mean, especially when you think marriages and stuff, ultimately, is that not really what it becomes down to, right? That's true. Consummating the marriage, right? Consummating the marriage is certainly a big piece of that, right? To think that socially that's just all evolved into a handshake. Wow. We've missed out on so much. Well, and, you know, and the other side of that, again, I, you know, I've recently been thinking a lot about just because those who are in America, how much even still today we are still trapped by our Puritanical origins as Europeans here in America. And I think a lot of our culture really carries over from the Puritans and not necessarily, and we just sort of think this is the way the world is, right? And that's not necessarily it. I think we are ensconced in that more than we would even realize, but it's our culture. And who are you to say that our culture is wrong?

[14:26] Uh with that um oh he does confirm one more thing the narn were not in space prior to the centauri arriving oh and most of their space tech is basically leftover stuff from the centauri fascinating like where they pulled out so it's almost like the centauri are the ones popping and you know like they're hitting these planets and pulling people onto the galactic stage because it was the same thing with earth but that's all i got here from jms so jeff i think with that But it's time for us to go watch an episode. It's time. Yes, it is. I'm excited for this, folks. If you're joining us for the very first time, what's about to happen is we're going to watch the episode. We're going to pull it up. We're going to sit here. We're going to watch it with you. We're going to talk about it. We're going to react to things that are happening, all that good stuff. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're going to see kind of the cut-up edited version, the reaction video style of this. If you want to see the full and unedited version, also, if you want to possibly be a part of these recordings as our council chambers are every single time are invited to be a part of it, we'll mention things that they say throughout the, throughout the viewing.

[15:35] You can head over to our Patreon page. That's patreon.com slash Babylon five first. That's number five and the word first. And hey, listen, if you're catching us on an audio podcasting app, because ultimately this has always been a podcast first and foremost, Jeff. Uh you're gonna hear the audio from that youtube video we don't want you guys left out so that you guys can hear the full conversation because sometimes the conversation will happen mid episode yep and we won't save it for the end so we will get you guys that but after that uh again you guys will hear the conversation that we have uh going on there so jeff let's do a thing let's do it let's start up accessing file the very star wars looking shot right okay i'm sorry this is just This isn't it. Right, yeah. How beautiful is this? Look at that ship, right? This is what, 95? It didn't make it out with the rest. Shruck, how many? Shruck. That's a new one. Satari Force is closing on their position. I'm going to start working that in.

[16:39] That's better than frack. It is, right? Yeah. Shruck. I'm so glad they put cameras on the bridges of those ships. 5,000 of my people died in the bathroom. And outside. And had cuts, you know, and good lighting. They were attacked without warning, despite their promise not to strike civilian targets. supreme sacrifice to save the colony's civilian population. Why is he saying this to a bunch of Earth Alliance people and not the council? The old, the infirm, everyone. Everyone in this room knows too well that the first casualty of war is always the truth. Oh, that's big. Unfortunately, the rest tend to be too small or too weak to defend themselves. In fact, I would say it's what leads to war. Yeah. I like this too because it's setting up the expectation that they're going to come out to support the Narn. And then here in a couple episodes, slap.

[17:25] Do whatever you have to just get them to sign up do whatever you have to ominous ominous words.

[17:35] So to this whole thing um apparently claudia came to jms at the start of year one and asked to do more funny stuff in her role okay now they were already in production on a lot of the scripts for year one so they couldn't change a ton there didn't want her to change anything in the story just let her have some more fun before all hell breaks loose in season three so what we're watching is claudia getting her wish very much be careful what you wish for kind of story i love jms uh i mean similar to the story with londo and the hair and stuff like that he allows these actors to have influence over their characters because as he says who knows these characters better than the people who are embodying them and living them out yeah which is great difficult for anyone to come to your aid now that's interesting sins of the past talk about that jeff you know it's what we're watching is a clear atrocity right and dylan just outright said that they're willfully killing civilians and you would think an enlightened people would be like no we can't let that happen You have to intervene in some way, but because of things that Jakar has said actions that he and his government have gone through, uh, they're like, no, we, you don't get that help. I, yes, it's, it's wrong, but you don't get the help. I have really mixed feelings about that.

[19:01] And I think part of it is, I think that both Jakar and Delenn are looking at this in a very binary sense. Either you don't support in the war at all, or you fully support the Narn. I think there's a space in there of, hey, we're going to deploy ships, and we're going to monitor the civilian populations or transports or whatever and intervene if they're attacked. Like there's more, there are more options, but they're both just being very dualistic in their thinking. What is it when a tragedy occurs? no victim is ever responsible for the acts of a perpetrator right absolutely okay there are times when people bring stuff on themselves you feel me i'm following there there are times when words you say actions you do things like that lead others or open the door to others making their bad choices that they are solely responsible for and you are not correct yeah.

[19:56] I didn't say this thing. I didn't wear this thing, which made this thing happen. No, they made the choice a hundred percent. And it's, it's their responsibility. They're the ones that did it. And the, the act that they just committed as a tragedy also, because of the words you spoke and the actions you have taken, this is where you are. You're exposed. Maybe you're exposed. That might be the better way to put it. And we can't cover you on this one. Does it, it's, it's a real weird spot. Like this, this thing should never happen.

[20:28] It's not okay. You kind of did it to yourself though. Like, like it's, it's a, but you're not responsible. Like, like, I don't know how these, this is like that. These are two diametrically opposed things that lives together and are intertwined. And it's, it's a really weird thing. Cause Dylan's basically saying, yeah, all your people are innocent, all this, but because of what you've done, what you've said in the words you've spoken, you've cried wolf too many times. And yeah, I still don't really feel like that's just either or thinking, you know, I mean, I still, I think even if we take it out of this war situation, I think that people and societies can make decisions that protect the, the innocent, the civilians, the victims without coming in and having a stake in the conflict itself. You, you can't, for example, and some of the, we have so much war happening across the globe right now. And multiple nations have come together to try to, you know, we're going to carve a pathway so we can get food and medicine and humanitarian aid to just the people trying to live their lives. We're not going to touch your military stuff. You all do your thing, but we're going to take care of them in this situation. I think you could, we're going to patrol, right? We're going to be out around where these things are happening. If you call, we will come, but we are not getting involved in your conflict. We will protect these civilians.

[21:54] That aren't a part of it, even if their government said things that put them into this situation there, I think there's still victims. And I think that there's, I think everyone can do better in protecting victims and it's the either or thinking that stops us so often. Yeah. And, and I think the biggest difference, and I'm with you a hundred percent on what you just said, the biggest difference there is people who are having something perpetrated on them because of what somebody else has done and said versus what they themselves have done and said. And that that i i think you and i probably are relatively aligned on what we're saying yeah just that's that's where the separation comes is yeah and i think in this situation for those people on the transport it's it's stuff jakar said it's stuff the car read decided i mean yeah these are people just trying to get away or trying to go on vacation you know or what whatever it is they're they're trying to do interesting piece all the way around there is nothing to mediate yeah delin distancing herself become involved from the minbaris and her role in the earthman bari war is no in between soft plane this whole thing not a good look.

[22:59] I'm 100 on jakar's side in this of what this this conversation.

[23:05] This whole hey we asked you for help thanks for the tea and thank you for your honesty she is being honest and here's the thing um i think jakar is wrong okay he just said a statement without someone else intervening we will exterminate them or they will exterminate us we will kill them all or they will kill all of us he said there's no in between on the one hand he could just be stating a fact it's like when somebody looks at me and says hey i'm going to need you to remember to do this thing and i'm like that ain't gonna happen right that's i'm not being will i'm not being willful about that i'm just telling you it's not going to happen like i've been down this road a lot i know how this is going to play out for jakar and here's where i disagree with him there is no in between there is.

[23:47] No hope for jakar on this one yeah the idea like jakar is not trying to work towards peace he is just trying to get somebody else to come in and solve this stuff also he could just be stating fact right i mean when things look but i think 100 agree this whole conversation between jakar and delen boils down to dualistic binary either or thinking with no gray area and no in between and that just leads to awful things yeah and suzanne points out perhaps this is why kosh says that neither the centauri or the narn should survive yeah effectively is what they say you know which what are you talking about the centauri or the narn yes i think this is where we discovered.

[24:41] Why why is it the narn are getting pushed out and the centauri get to stay there, Somebody has to get pushed out. They threw the bottle. I can see that, yeah.

[24:52] But this is where, frankly, and I have a very strong opinion on this one. They both contributed to that event. Both need to have the same response. They both need to be ejected from the bar. You both contributed. Yes, they may have threw the thing, but you were doing what you did to cause. Again, you didn't throw the bottle. They're responsible for that. But your word. Oh, there it is. Because of the words you have said, you brought that on yourself. Well, I was responsible for what they did. You brought that on yourself. I would say it like this. If they had not said the words, they said the bottle would not have been thrown. It's not that you said it. So it's no, if they hadn't been said, this wouldn't happen. You both, you both. Yeah. That's not victim blaming.

[25:38] Nia says that she'd love a conversation between S. Jakar and season five. I am Coral Mirzat. That'd be interesting. And you are? I am Coral Mirzat. JMS, I'd read, um, as I was preparing for myself and I was at your job, but he talked about this interview he saw and I forget all the specifics, but there was a, an American reporter who was interviewing some, uh, you know, ambassador, dignitary, or official from some other country. And it was clear that when the reporter asked their questions, the person understood exactly what they were saying, but they never spoke. All responses came from the translator. And it was just basically this whole thing and he's like oh my gosh i have to put this into the show somehow and thus the lumati were born did she just do the picard thing she did she did the picard thing with a little mustard on it.

[26:33] Are hard it was nia who brought it up earlier the debut of the black jacket you better tell me right now so that i can have them thrown off this station and sent somewhere else oh yeah he hit him right where it counts there uh-huh and sheridan's right like they have the right to defend themselves there's nothing to defend at that point the way for one race to help another is to allow evolution to run its course to give them their bootstraps from which they will pull themselves up ben says the lumati philosophy is kind of similar to the shadows and i disagree with them i think the lumati presents a third option to the vorlon shadow idea the vorlons talk about we're going to move society along we're going to move evolution along through order and through organization and this sort of stuff right shadows say we're going to move evolution along through conflict and chaos and that sort of stuff these guys say we're going to move evolution along.

[27:27] Through non-interference through non-action by being on neither side we're just going to let it happen whoever survives is the one who survives and good for you it's almost like what sheridan says when he wins we're not playing your game but the difference is they are playing the game just the way they're playing it is through non-interference and the way sheridan plays his game is by not playing the game well yeah he's just we're not doing this texas alishok in the chat brings up such a great point for my Mass Effect people out there. Javik, one of the Protheans, like this is very much the Prothean mindset as well. You're either one of us or you're not. Now that means we may enslave you. That means you may be worthy of becoming one of us, but you are Prothean or you aren't whatsoever, which was their downfall in their cycle of the Reapers because they were so homogenized in their culture and in their ways and everything, they just got beat. It was the diversity of the modern galaxy that spoiled it. Homogenization, not a good thing? Yeah, isn't that weird? It's been a long time since we've had a good Mass Effect reference from you, Jeff. I know, and I'd thank Texas for queuing that one up for me. I'm sure they will pass with time. You'll get back. I love that line. Right. You've got some strange ideas, but I'm sure they'll pass with time. I also love this too because it shows why Franklin is not a diplomat.

[28:53] That's a great line a moment of joy and i want me to be happy i want a taste of the past and me to be happy for you yeah our humanity and relationship why is everyone here walking around like they're afraid of me as maybe we are i would never threaten you that was garibaldi being a good friend right there being very honest.

[29:16] I don't know you anymore londo that was my good friend mr garibaldi here's a question is it not is he saying this to her to her or to himself yeah she just happens to be there it really is sad it's the real londo trying to peek out but these outbreaks of well this is where jam is talking about you got to pull him back a little bit and show this is a bit of jacar we've never been in this position pulling back a little bit we pushed the satori off norm through a war of attrition so if you're interested in showing how strong you are i suggest you return home and join the military that's a great response it's easy to talk about being strong here and when we finish there was not be one centauri left alive on this station it is here where i feel obligated to point out something that we have talked about often here um at bad nerds we've talked about it on star trek before we've talked about it on babylon five before we've talked about it on stargate i'm sure we talked about it on crusade and any other places where you and i may have had a conversation i've talked about this in other places it is wrong every time to strip individuals of their humanity and lump them together as a single group based on something that binds them together yeah in sci-fi It's almost always their race of, of, of alien ship.

[30:42] In real life, it's almost always your race of the color of your skin, or it's the gender of your body, or the transgender of your body and the choice that you make, or it's the person that you decide to love, or it's the color of your hair, or it's the nation that you come from, or whatever, or it's the political side that you lean towards, or it's something of that nature. Oh, it's everyone on the left. Oh, it's everyone on the right. Oh, it's all of you Russians or all of you Jews or all of you Germans or all of you Americans or all of you Canadians. Okay. Nobody's ever been mad at the Canadians before. Wow. Nobody. No, no. Canadians are cool, man. Like they love everybody. And that's just awesome. And I don't know that there might be. But my point being, when you, when you strip individuals of their humanity and hold them accountable for the actions of a race of an entire group of people and you lump them together, you serve to make these broad statements that may not apply to that one. Right.

[31:55] Or to that one or to that one. Also, you know what happens when you do that? You make it easier to hate. You never make it easier to love. Exactly. You only make it easier to hate when you strip the individuality away and lump them together as a group. And we do great damage and disservice to our human race, to our country, to humanity as a whole. When we do not acknowledge their individuality, but we lump them together based on some demographic check mark that they put on a box on a census form we're going to blanketly kill all of the centauri there must not be a single centauri not one why do you have a death sentence simply be virtue of your parentage your lineage.

[32:47] That is wrong every single time that's what we were talking about earlier they're all going to die because of things that are happening on the other side of the galaxy i'm just chilling here on babylon 5 i actually have a really cruddy job like you know i go to all the time i'm just trying to earn enough money to send my kid to school you know or whatever eat showing up i read about the war in the news i have an opinion whatever but i'm not doing anything i just show up every day And now I'm going to die because, because of all that. And I think it really, again, boils down to what we were talking about earlier too, where when you put everyone in their group, whatever that group is, strip them of their individuality, their humanity, you've now created either or thinking that can only result in hate. If I am this checkbox and you are that checkbox, how does that result in anything other than I hate that other checkbox? I love this one and I hate that one. well said i want i love the ones like me i hate the ones not like me no tauri left alive that's a problem, oh were you um were you waiting for someone yes you saw him say he might come you were right there all perfectly understandable given these temptation of our company given the temptation of our company.

[34:10] You have many of these? Yeah. Is that Natoth? I think so. That looks like Natoth. If that was real Natoth, she would have busted heads right there. We have to decline their request for intervention. That's a bad Natoth. We're going to call her Phutoth? Phutoth. I think Natoth. Save their civilian population when they get caught in the middle. Planning to attack the Centauri here. Shruck. Are they armed? He said Shruck also. How did we miss Shruck? When? About two human hours. This has to be stopped at the source. Also, they never use it again after this. They rejected my authority. I have to reclaim it. You create a workforce without a power base to challenge you. Does that sound at all like anything that's happening, I don't know, right now in our world in society? Not at all, Jeff. Not even a little bit? Nothing that could lead to anything bad or uprisings. I have two thoughts on this scene. One is that exactly. We're like, they're describing exactly the economic realities of our world today. And two, of everything the Lumatis say and do in this episode, this is the filthiest, this is the worst. Like, not only are we not going to bother ourselves with you, we're going to fully exploit you to the point of, like, extinction. She's disgusted. Disgust the turds of her alignment.

[35:22] Oh that's intended as an honor i'm speaking to you and she's just disgusted by the whole thing yeah i think what really is more disgusting than anything is you're gonna talk to me now it appears that we are more alike than we are dissimilar this is the thing and now i it took you this long it's kind of insulting like just all the way around it's insulting and it's like oh now you want to talk to me well you know what you're not my equal exactly don't go i'm gonna get my interpreter because i'm not going to talk to you anymore because that solves things yes we're down below somebody here will do it for a couple bucks like there you go i want one of those guys they are creatures of the night.

[36:14] I want to watch two kangaroos fight and see if it's anything like this at all oh my gosh it's like the worst narn fighting, did you see how weak this faux toth just like she's just like gut tap backhand right if that what's that what's that what's that lady's name julie caitlin something i forget i forget if that was her dude that would not have like it would have been a backhand but would have been a backhand through the sternum right she would have found a wrench that would have happened to be there she would have used an elbow like come on and a knee and probably her skull and and then crouched.

[37:01] Elbows aren't supposed to this ends now if peace on this station is the only way to win the war at home, then peace we will give them! If peace on the station is the only way to win the war at home, then peace we will give. That requires some time. Ambassador! He's doing peace at the Centauri.

[37:28] But you realize this violates your government's recommendation. And this is as unofficial as you can get. It's like, Dylan, let me introduce you to John Sheridan. If you do this right, there won't be any fingerprints leading back here. But Ambassador, I've learned the hard way that governments deal in matters of convenience, not conscience.

[37:43] Thank you. Aww. i'm curious though what changed between her conversation with jacar and her conversation with sheridan that now she's willing to do something is it the removal the absence of jacar from the equation no i think it's the their fingerprints can't be traced back to us also or oh here's the thing uh somebody else is taking the lead which will go into a message that i had later because what what did dakar say to sheridan at the beginning of the episode if you take a stand the rest will follow he went to dylan he's not the one that others will follow no you're right he said to sheridan and he and and yes at the time it sounded like he was talking about earth if earth takes a stand the others will follow but that's not what it was sheridan if you you take a stand others will follow we really see that play out through the series as well right you know one of the things the thing yes yes the thing i've taken heat for is my assessment of delen in a lot of situations but in those situations there's a gap there's a vacuum in leadership she's trying to fill and people just don't follow whereas sheridan steps in and he forms the interstellar alliance because i'm john sheridan he is that leader that people will follow.

[39:11] Although to be fair sheridan didn't really form the interstellar alliance either if memory serves the interstellar alliance was formed while sheridan was being tortured because it was while he was being tortured that correct me if i'm wrong but in that he was being tortured and that's when delin londo and jakar came together and said hey we've gotta we gotta come together, yeah you gotta do this other new thing now sheridan may have been sowing those seeds sheridan may have had those conversations that we just never saw before that moment but it was finally a no no we've got to come together to do all this well i think it's a thing where similar to this someone else actually had the initial idea right jakar had the initial idea here we got to do something we have to there they had the idea of the alliance it's sheridan who can run it across the finish line there's visionary leadership and then there's operational transformative leadership and they're not always the same right and so i don't think that it's him, having that vision it's him execute having the ability to execute the vision and that's what he does here pieces all brings everything together yeah but but even look what's happening while he's away these people come together knowing sheridan's the leader they're they're putting this yeah we're going to form around this guy who's not even in the middle of this conversation right now which i think lends it not for this episode but for future ones when this happens the idea of leadership and specifically charismatic leadership.

[40:40] Which opens up a whole conversation when we get into Frank Herbert's Dune. No, I just find it interesting. Dylan's like, nope.

[40:48] Well okay although i don't know that i would necessarily describe john sheridan as charismatic what i don't know that i'd describe him as susanne puts it best in the whole thing, it's his smile like that alone charming yes but he like like sheridan is very down to earth he's very he can live in both places he's very bro he can do the he can do the rah-rah speech but he's not this big magnanimous personality like we see that time and again he's not this thing people may have an image of him as that thing that's not what he is really which is why i think he's actually effective at it because he's not actually not just the charismatic leader he's not the cult of personality he's the real deal that's what makes sheridan different he brings the whole package but people come on board because he's got a great smile and later on he has that voice i, And the hair scoop that he gets later? That's exactly what he wants to do.

[42:02] That was great. I wonder if he really just did that off the top of his head, or if he had Peter Jersik say it and try to imitate it. Let's find out. This couldn't possibly be any worse. That, Brent, was an ad lib by Jerry Doyle. So here in the actual script, it says he was supposed to say, Garibaldi, he'll announce it all over the station as proof that the Narns are doing Londo, is what it says, barbarians. Period. He did the rest. That's great. Go, Doyle. You know what I love is we hear about this on particularly Star Trek all the time, where if it ain't on the page and ain't on the stage and if you were to say something like that they would have to like call the writers and get sign-offs and all that sort of stuff i don't know that they had to do that i mean jms might have been right there and be like yeah go ahead do it that's fine but the idea that that could happen again we said it earlier i love that jms allows the actors to influence their character in their character's arcs we talked a lot about how like, franklin kind of being the bro here and like at this point in time it wouldn't be a question of like oh you shouldn't have to do that it's a question of how are you going to do that, oh i remember this scene we're gonna see peak katsulas here in a moment.

[43:28] Okay so is he laughing or crying here yes that's the correct answer it's both yeah he's jms jms addresses that he's laughing at the absurdity and he's crying it's about as close as we'll ever get to seeing a narn having a nervous breakdown i just am so impressed with the acting i mean how much he was able to convey in that like 40 second moment without any words everything he's so excited he's so relieved he's heartbroken he has no hope and hope yeah everything at once boom shubba lubba lubba boom shubba lubba lubba hey there hey there three bags full drink shubba lubba lubba kiss kiss kiss kiss like i was trying to play along how do you like it so far the fact that he's anywhere nearby what do i do now i love that he shakes her hand, I want to think he was like Game recognized game Yeah, exactly, He's got his going out shirt on Thanks For what you did Even if only for a little while They both know what's coming Right.

[44:41] Music.

[44:48] You know, it's so interesting to me that we get a You know, hey, what in the world's going on With Mr. Garibaldi thing going on and it's and it's jacar yeah you know in the in the future who's all about him and not londo it's just i don't know it's it's interesting is that friend then that moment it just showed the power power of their friendship unfortunately we never really got their friendship did we londo and garibaldi yeah no no jacar and garibaldi i don't think we really did we got that one kind of came out of left field all of a sudden well no it made sense because garibaldi did the same things he did for londo he listened he was there he problem solved he was just a good Dude.

[45:24] Which is a thing Jakar, much like Londo, wasn't accustomed to. Well, Brent, that's acts of sacrifice. Yeah. I'll tell you what. I'm curious what your thoughts are, but I'm definitely seeing this episode in a different light the second time around. There's a lot. We unpeeled a lot of it in our first viewing, but on the second viewing, I think there's. A lot more, at least that I got out of it. What about you? The question I have at this point is fast forward 60 episodes, 70 episodes, whatever it is we have left. Will I remember this one again? I'll tell you what you will remember subconsciously. And I think that's the intent is that we love Londo. Londo is a person that we want to see pull through and win as Londo, not as Londo. We see the real Londo here. The guy who really doesn't like the platitudes of his fellow countrymen exactly he thinks he does but they don't really appeal to him the londo who really just wants to have friends who.

[46:26] Just wants to have a drink and isn't burdened by the the political aspirations but we also see the political aspirations coming for him yep and it breaks our heart when he gives into it because we're like dude you forgot how to dance you were so close to remembering how to dance man right there it's the life you want versus the life that's thrust upon you and this is an episode that if babylon 5 was made today with 10 episodes a season.

[46:55] This would not be an episode i agree because i think the other thing this episode does is it gives us a view of jakar that lets him start transitioning from like we saw him as evil.

[47:07] The the clearly you know the reptile dude who's always going to be the bad guy then we saw that switch when you know he got attacked no he's a marsupial and we can look at him in a different light but this kind of brought those two together in a way that's really meaningful moving forward also we see that happen this is this this was a pavement lane episode that yeah in a 10 13 episode season the pavement would just be there this this is a character building episode even if you don't know why it's building the characters this is an episode that pays dividends seasons down the road because of the work that it does and it's not even memorable which honestly jeff isn't that the sign of brilliance i think it really is absolutely yes joe i'm talking about you it is the sign of brilliance the fact that you can give me something that doesn't seem and i'm sorry i'm sorry to describe your work as forgettable but go with me on this it doesn't seem significant at the time you may not be able to put your finger on it but this does something like this is an inception level episode. It puts these things into your subconscious. It puts these things into your brain so that when you think these thoughts later on, you don't even realize that this is where they came from. You just think this is what this person is. But I think you're right, Jeff.

[48:31] This is a pavement laying episode that 60, 70 episodes down the line. I don't know that I'm going to remember the pavement, but it's going to be, it's going to have impacted the viewing like anything else. I didn't listen to our messages portion of the conversation from the first time ago around. I do remember the conversation we had about Ivanova and just the dignity that people should have, and they should never have to go through this. Right. Exactly. Frankly, that part of the episode on this watch meant nothing to me. It was, it was such a, it was so just over here. It was just over there on the side. It was a funny moment for Ivanova. That's all it was. And it really didn't have the impact that I thought it did on the first watch, at least not to me this time. I still, I remember everything I said, and I still stand by everything I said the first time I'm not going to rehash it I do think this episode had some other really important things to say that we probably missed the first time around many of which we covered during the episode and I think that's so much of it for me was that there's a lot to unpack in the Londo stuff the Jakar stuff there's a little bit of stuff to unpack in the Lumati stuff but our first time around we really focused on that Lumati stuff because that seemed to be.

[49:42] Important in some way but here's what you and I know right now the Lumati never returned exactly and we can't this could have been the introduction of a new key race in the series this could have been a whole story about how this superior race learns from we inferior races and then becomes a part of the galactic whole and contributes and does all this stuff but no yeah it's just we have to fill you know 40 some odd minutes of an episode and so let's let's do this hey you remember that first episode that we got lauren laurian the first time around yeah yeah yeah yeah uh how important did he wind up becoming i mean he became critically important that's what i mean and how many episodes did we see him in i don't know seven yeah six seven something like that okay zathras remember when we first met zathras we only saw him in four episodes yeah but man did he have an impact yeah huge going through the first time you're aware that everybody you meet could come back later and could have an impact on the show so you give undue importance to them you and i watching this the second time around we know these guys never come back so you know what we don't really think too much about their particular story yeah what are the messages you found this time around maybe we talked about it maybe we didn't talk about it summarize it if we have already talked about it but if not dive into it what'd you find you know i think i found this time that we didn't find last time and honestly i found this in the lumati no no no this was in Sheridan Sheridan who said this one and I just thought like this is so profound.

[51:10] Governments deal in matters of convenience not conscience conscious for those of you that know I've started a recently started a new position in with the government that's, relatively high up there. And I got to tell you, man, it's disappointing how much we lean towards convenience instead of doing the hard work or having the hard conversations. And this isn't a reflection on the company I work for. This is a reflection on corporate and governmental culture at a certain point. It's, you know, how is this going to look? How's this going to sound? How do we, this thing, as opposed to actually doing things that matter? And to me, it wasn't so much a message. Well, it was a message in terms of a mirror to society. I think this episode had a lot of mirrors to society in it. The Lumati down and down below, which we discussed. But I think so much of it too, I mean, when we talked about this during the episode, because I won't dive in, but just that trap of either or thinking. It took so much for Sheridan to be able to come in with a, hey, here's a different idea. And it took a Sheridan to move that forward. And I just think that's so disappointing that all could have happened in the very first conversation when Jakar was talking with the Earth crew if they hadn't just been focused on the, the passion, the emotions, the anger, the.

[52:27] Convenience, not the conscience of what was going on. Let's talk about what we can actually do. There's, there's always that conversation. And I, I try to do this with my kids. I practice this with my kids a lot. They come here, dad, dad, dad, can we do this? I don't want to be the dad who always says no. So I've really, I really try. And I, I think I'm fairly decent at it to say, no, we can't do that, but here's what you can do.

[52:51] And I don't, and I don't make it. No, you can't go play all day, but you ha you can go clean your room like it's not that sort of a thing it's a hey dad can i have a you know can i invite someone so over and have a sleepover tonight now baby we can't do that tonight but maybe we can look at that for next weekend or the following weekend or maybe instead of you spending instead of them spending the night here maybe you could spend the night there and i know there's a whole thing some parents don't let their kids spend the night that's fine that's that's you do you that's an example it's an example but to sit there and go hey you have to get involved and you got to run these patrols yeah we can't do that but what can we do a lot of it's finding the actual thing so to use the spending the night example because i like it it's one i experience as well it's not actually the spending the night that's the important thing it's the spending time with their friends there it is right so you boil it down with with jakar in this situation it's not military intervention.

[53:47] It's help in some, some form or another. Yeah. What are you really asking for? Exactly. You know, I think I teach us a lot with, and support it with the teams I work with. There's the adage that the customer is always right. And I'm like, yeah, they're actually almost never right. Um, the customer has an idea of what they want. If you're an actual professional, you will help them not in a like manipulative, you know, let's upsell them kind of way, But in a true problem solving way, find out what they actually really want and then point them to that thing So if it's about spending time with your friends, cool We can talk about how you can do that spending the night's not on the table Yeah.

[54:26] There's these other things yeah we can't give you mines and drones and cruisers and soldiers but you said you needed help right so here's some food we can give you here's some transport find the commonality find the real thing you truly want did you find any other ones you wanted to touch on i feel like we probably mentioned this the first time around just because it's the kind of thing we would mention the first time around but the the line of sheridan at the very beginning the first casualty of war is the truth yeah you know something i feel like we see is when, war starts or the build up to war there's the oh you oh let me take this even back let's go to history jeff i'm familiar with the hatfields and the mccoys uh not terribly but a bit okay uh for those of you who don't know the hatfields and mccoys were two families that lived basically on the border of kentucky and west virginia back in the day and they got into a feud it's one of the.

[55:20] Most infamous family feuds not the game show an actual real life family feud and basically it was one person killed somebody on the other side of the family and so their surviving relatives came and killed the other person and then they went and killed another person they just went back and forth there's a great mini series on it a bunch of years ago called hatfields hatfields and mccoys or just hatfields or something like that fun fact i'm related to the hatfields really through marriage, not, not by blood, but you know, that would be the side that, that, uh.

[55:50] But I, I, I am close enough to that area that I, I, but here's the thing, the atrocities are, and if memory serves i'm trying to get this right i want to say it was the hatfields that no i'm sorry it was the mccoys who killed a hatfield first okay okay but that was also out of response to the atrocities that hatfields were committing upon the mccoys as a family yeah so when the first person was killed whichever side it was it doesn't really matter when the first person was killed all of a sudden it was they just came and killed our guy this this guy who was a father and had children and now we're gonna miss him and we can't let that stand they just came and killed our guy who was a good guy there was a reason they came and got him oh he was it again the casualty of the truth yes he was a father and yes this is terrible and yes he there's all the good things he did but here's also here all the bad things that kind of go back to what i said earlier.

[56:55] He's not responsible for somebody coming and killing him but he also kind of brought it on himself those two things can exist right at the same time and then when the second murder happened and they went and got him back hey listen we were just listen this was just vengeance for what happened with our guy we're clean now you came and killed our guy he did that because of whatever he was justified you guys had no justification to come and do this and now you killed our guys so we got to go get you again the casualty of the truth you forget the other side of the stuff of what's going on right you're just oh we're going to highlight this person you know oh we should honor this person and fly flags at half mast and all this but wait when this other person got killed we never did any of that stuff so where is it yeah what is one person's a martyr the other person is well they brought it on themselves what are we going to be point being the first casualty of war is the truth and that's that's where people i think justify the war that's how you justify the war is by you forget the the parts of the truth that really yeah.

[57:58] You'd that don't lend credibility to your war that's where i would almost reframe what sheridan said as opposed to being the first casualty of war it's the casualty that leads to war i do want to just highlight growth quickly i won't dwell on it we we talked about it during the mid episode but jakar says to sheridan in the very beginning if you take a stand the rest will follow and my comment at the time was never underestimate your influence and i think that's true never underestimate your influence folks i like that a lot never underestimate your influence because people will follow again we thought at the time we're talking about earth if earth takes a stand the other governments will follow okay well that's not gonna happen right nope but when sheridan took a stand the mimbari followed again others followed to build on a conversation we had before we were thinking in terms of the big checkbox the checkbox of earth when earth does this, but it was the individual Sheridan that people followed. So it's not just in dehumanizing, it's also in noticing the humanity that I'll follow that this big checkbox over here. No, actually I hate them.

[59:02] I hate that checkbox. I like that person. I love the line of Lumati. It appears we are more similar than we are dissimilar. We interrogated that a little bit earlier. I won't go back to that again. But Jakar also says this, and I don't even know what to do with this jeff i don't even know what to do with this it it's i gotta think about it more okay, jacar says if peace is the only way to win the war at home then we will give them peace yeah or then peace we will give them i think is the exact line i don't even know what to do i don't even know how that applies to life right now you know well let me try and unpack it a little bit so if we take away the you know kind of break it down what he's saying is if there's only one way to win the war, we'll do that thing. So what is the thing he wants? To win the war. He's focused on winning the war. They could say, if the only way to do it is to eat all the ice cream in the Zocalo, we will eat all the ice cream in the Zocalo. It sounds nice because it's about peace. If giving them peace is the only way to win, then we'll give them peace.

[1:00:03] I almost boil that down to a point of it's a by any means necessary we will win this war and i think to jacar winning the war is still destroying the centauri well he said earlier that they they fought the centauri the first time through a war of attrition we're just going to outlast them until it's no longer worth it to them to be here it's what worked the first time i think of dr martin luther king jr you think of gandhi two people that led movements based upon the same ideology of non-violence we're not going to push back we're just going to be here you want to hit us you want to beat us you want to do whatever you go ahead and do that but we're going to be here.

[1:00:44] And we're just going to keep staying until we break your will yep until you until you folks out there see how awful this is we're just going to let you do this to us we're not going to fight back first to me we might be seeing that somewhere in the world today honestly as well that shows how bad other people can be and turns everybody else against you till we get what we want but that's honestly what i kind of think jms might have been hearkening to when he said this yeah is you know listen if this is how we got to do it not fighting but by not fighting which oh my god that's the answer that we get from sheridan in season four uh-huh exactly we're not gonna fight you anymore we're just not gonna do this anymore how are we gonna fight you by not fighting we're not doing we're not participating in this anymore i like that so much because it's it is it's we've talked about this before again but when you fight fire with fire you just get more fire nobody wins right and so that's it's that thing of.

[1:01:43] If we fight them conventionally the way they're fighting us there will just be more fighting and frankly they will win they have more resources than we have but it will just be more bloodshed and everything and so yeah well well and here's the other thing okay you can fight fire with water that would seem pretty good but what happens when you run out of water what happens when water is not near you know another way to fight fire suck all the oxygen out of the room take the fuel away then you're done how do you how can you fight fire with fire take the fuel away yeah we burn.

[1:02:13] You have controlled burns that are meant to take the fuel away so there's nothing to burn, right? That's what I got, Jeff. Cool. You got to have one more thing, Brent. Do I? You do. This is on you this week. All right. So we are creating the definitive, the immutable, the objectively correct ranking of all the episodes in the second season of Babylon 5 as we watch it for the second time. I uh you know in our notes we always list the top five in this one but I'm gonna I'm gonna take a guess and think that this one might land in a little bit of a different spot so uh I'm gonna start I'm gonna start at number eight our number eight episode is a distant star number seven points of departure six is grow pose number five is all alone in the night and then fourth we have a race through dark places brent where are you going to place acts of sacrifice you know jeff one of the things about when you have a partnership with somebody and and you've been around each other you know each other so well you don't have to say things you just i know what they're thinking and i know where this is going to go and you're absolutely right you're right there this is an episode jeff that upon further reflection upon second viewing you have an entirely different experience of yeah And it means something very different to you this time around. I think that's really where this is. Is this a, a top tier episode? No, it's not.

[1:03:37] Is it a bottom tier episode no was it a bad episode absolutely not is it doing something and saying something something we didn't even really see or catch before yeah so that's the group this episode is going to find itself in and when i look here and i look at episodes that said something that we we picked up on more than what we could find the first time around there's one episode that glares out at me was i look here probably because it's in all caps but also.

[1:04:08] Because of that that same function and that's grow post yeah grow post was an episode you and i very much wrote off the first the first time around we in fact that to me grow post was the turning point of season two yeah once we got past grow post the rest of season two was great this is another episode where i could sit back and go yeah but better than grow post was is it better than grow post is now i i think this is i don't know i really liked grow post this time around yeah we liked it the first time around as well just as a stand i guess yeah it was great, it's fine yeah yeah whatever we liked kefir because of it you know yeah and and here's the thing i think i still like grow post more than i do this one yeah i think this is just going to come down to which episode would i want to watch again first and grow post is that to me although i kind of like this is that that thing was you put them both in an episode you put them both in a bag you shake up the bag pull one out and you're probably not wrong you're good to go um yeah i think you're good to go so in the official ranking because i would rather see grow post first grow post is going to stay at number six this is going to slot into our new number seven spot jeff dig Dig it.

[1:05:16] Well, Brent, that's going to do it then for acts of sacrifice next week. We're watching Hunter prey for the second time. Do you happen to remember what you predicted that Hunter prey was going to be about? Oh man. I, this was one where I said it was a Vorlon episode. And I said, Kosh is going to be chasing somebody. And my prediction was it was Mr. Morton. Kosh was coming after Mr. Morton. That was my thought. What about you?

[1:05:43] I thought somebody was going to come onto the station and set up a business hunting lurkers, like a island of Dr. Moreau, kind of like, let's go hunt people kind of a thing. Interesting. Jeff, we forgot to do something. If I want to rewind this just a bit. One thing we do typically and we didn't do it this time is where did acts of sacrifice find its final ranking the first time around first time around it came in at number 18 right below there all the honor lies and above and now for a word i'm really so this is now number seven we are 12 episodes into this into the season we have 10 episodes left so if every episode from here on in is better than this episode this could get down to number 17 and be right there yeah i'm curious to see where this episode quote unquote falls to, or rather just gets pushed down because of the quality of the rest of the episodes left. Yeah. And interestingly enough, in number 16 was Gropos. So in relation to each other, we weren't, we're not that far off. We're not that far off. Listen, a hundred percent accurate all the way around every single time. We know what we're professionals, professionals at this. I mean, you can't argue with it. There's no real ground to stand on. Oh, Brent next week, Hunter prey right here. Thank you everybody for hanging out with us and watching this episode with us. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. Leave us a rating, leave us a review, comment, however you can. Interact with us. We love when that happens. And if you want to follow the calling of your heart and be of service.

[1:07:09] Please share this show with someone who loves Babylon 5 and needs to watch it again with these two Yehoos watching it right now. So until next time, thanks for hanging out. Hey, Jeff. Yes brent what is up hey is is this the last time we've seen a toss yeah i think this is the last natoff until the fifth season good because i don't know why the shrug they stuck with her this long.

[1:07:36] Music.