And Now For a Word | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much.

[0:22] We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters. Then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, catching all the things, big and little, that there's no way we could have caught the first time around. That's right we are watching this for the second time we've already examined it we've analyzed it we've gone through but you know what, There's stuff we didn't catch the first time around. There are messages we didn't know about the first time around. And we are looking for those messages that not only we missed, but just what's right there. What is it? JMS is giving us, uh, what can we learn? What can we pull? What are the things that are mirrors to society for us today? What are things that give us hope that things can be better in the future or what things just tell us how to be better human beings to one another? That being said, yes, we have seen this show before, which means from this point forward, everything from here on out is full of spoilers. The no spoilers warning is away. It is gone.

[1:42] We are able and allowed to say anything from any point in the franchise, in the show, out of the show, from any of the other spinoffs, movies, anything. It's all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. So if you have not watched the show for the first time all the way through for yourself, stop the show right now. Don't listen to any more of this show jeff and i have the perfect show back for it's called babylon 5 for the first time go back and catch us then and get caught up and then you certainly can be a part of this because trust us with this show it's better that way it really is this week brent we're watching an episode called and now for a word and now for a word i remember loving this episode and it could i mean this is one that i'm so interested to watch again and i'm even more interested maybe to hear what you're going to talk about here in a moment because we have a lens on the history of this episode this was one we got you specifically got run through the ringer on yeah this one is left some marks on us but i have really fond memories of this episode i've this is one of them i've really really been looking forward to do you remember what you thought of it uh this episode holds a special place in my heart for that reason you just should there yep Jeff, this is the clip show. That's not a clip show. It is. It's a clip show. That's not a clip show. And I know I can hear all of you out there right now. I heard you the first time you're screaming at me. It's not a clip show, which I have to say. Yeah.

[3:08] You're right that's what i said it's not a clip show it's it's clip show without being a clip it's not a clip show it's not one yeah it's not one you heard the without being that's the key part of this and and i remember liking the episode i thought it was really creative i thought it was really really well done but i also remember the other side of being somebody who has just for i don't know if you can call what we do binging jeff like because we wait a week we do in each episode but like we don't we don't necessarily have the um we don't have to wait in between seasons or we don't have to wait during breaks and stuff like that right like as somebody who just came through and watched the previous 36 episodes it was not an episode i needed does that make sense yeah but i really loved the i loved how it was put together i appreciated what it was trying to do because you know what not everybody watching this at this point in tv had this information and jms had to find a way to give people this information and i just i had a lot of respect for this episode but man did i get it after you really did you really really did, oh man uh now that being said jeff that's what we remember i i did happen to go back.

[4:13] And listen to our first you did our first thing and i know what we actually said okay uh we both watched this one twice so this is not our second time this is actually our third time we watched a lot of them for the two we did well because you got it you got to prep for the show right but but this will be for the second time like outside of that but we did watch it twice and you and i both had the same opinion great first watch it was a lot of fun but the second time we watched it kind of boring okay yeah i can see that just because the clip shows tend to be boring the second time around yeah yeah you really did not like the performance of the guest star okay the the news anchor lady oh you were not a fan but you also said you thought that's how it was supposed to be like that's how she's supposed to you're not supposed to like what she's doing she's my byron according to you i listen i think it holds water i think it holds water i could be wrong but i think it holds water also who's byron i don't remember i don't remember i do not remember um i called out the idea that because the show you you said it in your recap that this This is 36 hours on Babylon five.

[5:28] We're gonna do 43 minutes of 36 hours on Babylon five to which I said, Jeff, what, what episode number is this? Oh, you looked it up and you like, well, it's episode 37. I went, so what we literally have up to this point is 36 hours of previously on Babylon five. And we're covering that here. Almost as if we're going back and covering things that have happened already. I think it still holds up. I love that idea. Um, I said that I felt like this was an episode kind of pushed on JMS by the studio.

[5:59] I would like to retract that. I, I think this is just JMS in his brilliance going, Hey, I know what's getting ready to happen. And I know that there's a lot of people who have not seen the things that they're going to need to see coming up. And so let's fill people in on what's going on.

[6:13] I have some really interesting stuff on that here in a little bit, by the way, if you're trying to get somebody to watch Babylon five and they keep getting stuck in season one, because season one is just a slog to get through and honestly so is the first half of season two giving them the episodes to skip and then say hey once you get to coming of shadows just watch everything from there on out you can do that because this episode exists because it covers everything it will cover everything they need that will get them where where else they're going uh i posited that uh avonaville was basically jms's like personal mouthpiece within the show okay yeah like last week she had a lot of the you know this station is about something although i know that line was written by peter david but still um you know the the great this is just a you know last best hope to make a buck like why are we doing all this merchandising stuff this sucks you know and now she's kind of having the same thing about this about this lady here i said that i had a lot of respect for this episode it it did what it needed to do and it did in a rather creative way um you said that this was one of the more star trekkie episodes like just in the messages in terms of the messages it's really trying to push out like this was a very star trek uh star trek episode we had talked about how we really thought that because this was that quote unquote clip show it's not a clip show this is a sign that everything in babylon 5 is about to ratchet up oh like this is the hey before we get on this next bit let's let's pause and go here's everything you missed because this is about to go and shoot straight up i think we.

[7:43] What's what's what's next week's episode jeff it's it's i don't know if you're gonna remember it or not it's just called in the shadow of zaha doom what's zaha doom i've never heard that before yeah you're gonna we're gonna learn about the shadow we'll talk about it okay okay cool um in other words i was right like like or we were right like yeah from i mean this show rockets i mean this is this is have you ever have you ever read i know you have jeff because you've written it with me rock and roller coaster at at disney yeah or tron or veloci coaster or the hulk or any of these that have like a magnetic launch not just a up the hill and then they drop you but it's a.

[8:24] That's what in the shadow is a ho-doom does it's just you're gone you know um.

[8:30] Although some people could say that the first season and a half had been the true, whatever. We both had kind of a moment of reckoning, a moment of realization, I should say, in that we were really beginning to come to terms with the idea that we would not necessarily get the redemption of Londo Malari in this season, that it could go seasons. Yeah, maybe it might. And I got to tell you, I could totally see why people kept putting people were making memes. Hey council chambers and patreon folk i actually i think this is good for all patreon okay um it well not all patreon anybody on discord all right on our discord general jeff there was a red sector yeah you and i were not allowed actually we're still not allowed into it but i know that in red sector you guys were making memes some of those memes made their way out a lot of them made their way out i would love to see those again especially any of them that have to do with the redemption of londo malari because that's just something we just kept talking about literally is this the redemption of londo malari and we're like i don't jeff i don't think we're gonna get it this season i think i think it's possible this could go seasons and you my friend said yeah it's gonna go up till about oh i don't know season four oh okay okay good job jeff real yeah real close.

[9:55] Oh my word i would argue we got redemption for londa malari really established in season four it was completed by season five that's fair you know what i mean but i mean season four is where where the turn really happened for him so uh also we just gushed for like 20 minutes over peter juristic and andreas katsoulis pretty appropriate that actually could just be the show and it'd be everybody we would all listen to it because it's right so um paul over in our council chambers who's joining us hello to our council chambers says i remember at one point you declared that londo was unredeemable and maybe i'm wrong you're 100 right he is unredeemable and there was another point later on where i said actually you know what the truth is nobody is, unredeemable and this goes on to kind of prove that and and that's part of the journey that's the roller coaster that was babylon five for the first time in that in order in order to get to the top you got to go to the bottom it happens there so that being said uh jeff that's what i found out from us jeff did you catch anything out there from the great maker himself about this episode it's not a lot out there on this one nothing that corroborates our theories about what's going we need to we need to call up we need to call joe up and be like hey talk to us.

[11:15] I will corroborate our theories, actually. Much like has happened in the last few weeks, many of our offerings and our thoughts of this show get validated here. I just have two things for before we get into the episode. There's a handful during the episode itself. There's just not a lot on this one. But he says that this is probably the most unusual episode to date. It's so unusual that he was very concerned about Warners approving it. So this isn't a thing pushed on him by the studio. In fact, he was afraid that it wouldn't, uh, wouldn't pass muster. So he wrote a letter that explained why this episode was done and why it should be produced. And we'll talk about that in more detail when we get to the messages portion of this conversation. But he said he wouldn't be putting in for a script payment until he knew they would accept it and let him make it. Oh, wow. So he really, really strongly believed in the concept behind this one. And then I'm going to read this. It's a relatively long statement. And then I want you to summarize this in as few words as possible. Be my chat GPT here and summarize this statement in as few words as possible. I'm sorry.

[12:26] Have you met you and I? Oh, you got this. You want me to be the one who is less verbose? You got this. Trust me. I'm leaning into your strength here. I got it. All right.

[12:38] He says, for those who've been nudging other folks to try out B5, you may want to tell them that this coming batch of episodes is probably the best time to dive in. In particular, our second new show, airing the first week of May, is designed, in part, to help new viewers coming to the show to catch up on background. What's another way to say that, Brent? It's a clip show. Without being a clip show. Bingo. He says no it's not a clip show or anything like that it's not a clip show but i think you'll like what i but i think you'll like what i did with it oh hey i have a lot i have a lot of respect for this episode it was a really creative way to do a clip show without having it be a clip show it's it's exact and the reason it's not a clip show is because we don't go back and watch the clips yeah that's the only thing missing that's that's that is my theory i'm putting forth as we go into this we're going to be like yeah they just tell you everything it's it's here's the thing like clip shows serve two purposes one there are a really cheap way to make an episode when you need to save that money for another episode like really cheap two they do serve to provide some background on what's going on yes i would say nine times out of ten jeff maybe even 99 times out of a hundred, it's mostly just to save money.

[14:06] Very rarely is it moving a story forward. Very rarely is it, um, uh, recapping previously on.

[14:15] Right okay maybe 95 out of 100 like like very rarely does it ever do that this one this one did its job of let's fill everybody in on what's going on because i don't know how much money they this is a bottle episode i guess but babylon 5 as a whole is designed to be a bottle show in and of itself yeah yeah so cool let's stop talking about it brent and let's watch it let's do that for sure. Welcome to all of our viewers and listeners that are joining us for the first time. If you haven't joined us for a while, this happens to be not a clip show that we're heading into at all, but you've chosen a great one to start with nonetheless.

[14:57] If you're not sure what's happening next, let me break it down. Brent and I have been talking about an episode we watched like three years ago. Gosh. Isn't that nuts? It's been a long time. So great. You watched a long time ago. We're not going to rehash that. We're going to actually bring the episode up. We're going to watch it right here in real time with you. If you're watching this on YouTube, you're going to see the cut up edited version of that. It's going to look nice. All of the dumb things that we say, all you're hearing is the best, the absolute best of what we have to say. And then cutting everything up to honor, copyright, and those other things. If you want to hear all the things that didn't quite make the cut that are part of that full version of everything, you can see that almost a week ahead of time. Most weeks over on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to this on the audio podcasting app, uh, you're still going to hear that reaction. We don't want you guys to miss the conversations that happen. We could save them for the very end, but we wound up having them in the middle of the episode anyway. So we'll make sure that you guys are there for that. And then certainly we'll meet you guys on the other side to share our thoughts and talk about the messages new or otherwise.

[16:09] That we uncover. So, Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's watch it. Accessing file. We interrupt our regular evening schedule to bring you the following special program. I wonder what was regularly scheduled. September 16th, 2259. And the Interstellar Network News presents 36 hours on a Babylon 5. I love that we get an actual day. With your host, Cynthia Torkman, reporting live from the ISN News Center in Geneva. Only the Mars colony, plagued by scattered groups of separatists who have used acts of terror to intimidate the Earth-loyal majority. Let's go ahead and demonize Mars. ...than the Earth-Alliance station Babylon 5. From its highly publicized debut three years ago, recent polls indicate a growing dissatisfaction with the time, money, and effort consumed by this space-born community. That's his commentary on Warner Brothers right now. So tonight, we take you to the center of the controversy. Is it really? No, but it'd be great if it was. Yeah, yeah. He spent 36 hours aboard Babylon 5, Asking hard questions, and on occasion, getting in a little over our heads. Non-transport Natan, return to your holding position at once. I repeat, return to your... Shadraka! This is so the intro to a ride. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[17:22] A terrible explosion, conspiracy involving several of these individuals, lies, deception, and the deaths of hundreds of people, all this and more in 36 hours aboard Babylon 5. That turned on such a dime. on the interstellar network expect the unexpected it's a lot of fun lies deception conspiracy six hours sponsored by interplanetary expeditions exploring the past to create a better future i love that tag that's a great little line yeah there's that great franklin scene here for transfer to various med lab facilities on babylon 5 which are already working beyond max.

[18:00] Let's put the device up that shines the light over top of him so it can heal him. Captain Sheridan, Cynthia Torkman, ISM News. Do you have any comment on what just happened here? No, no comment at this time, doctor. What about the Narn vessel that attacked the transport? He dispatched a fighter wing to apprehend them. We won't know anything more until they're in protective custody. If you will excuse me, please. This is exactly the kind of behavior that endangers the very purpose of Babylon 5. This place is dedicated to finding peaceful solutions to our problems. I love it. For the Narn to carry their vendetta against our people into neutral territory like is reckless and irresponsible. We're such victims, we Centauri. Though we mourn our own losses, we have felt strongly about our friends from Earth ever since we first encountered the world 100 years ago. Hey, thanks for telling us how long it's been since we've known you. I wonder if right now there are talks going on between Centauri and Earth and the Alliance we're going to hear about and he's greasing the skids. Oh, absolutely. He's lying. Then can you tell us why your ship opened fire on the Centauri transport? I'll issue a statement after I've consulted with my government. Are you saying your government sanctioned this attack? No. Do you think attacks... I like that Andreas says issue. Not issue. It's issue. You're already in more greater jeopardy than you can possibly imagine. You enjoy working with everyone? Look at the other person in the background, just like, calm, pleasant environment. I don't think I've ever seen anyone get upset here.

[19:25] I guess it's the old joke. So good. You don't have to be crazy to work here, but it helps. I suppose there is a certain attraction to being out here on the edge like this. A new frontier. New frontier is right. He's so pretty. Babylon 5 went online in 2257. Oddsmakers from New Vegas to Lords of London were predicting it wouldn't last six months. So a note from JMS, New Vegas is on Mars. Oh. So they're terrorists and horrible. Also, we're going to go with their bookies. Babylon 5 has been through some dramatic changes in administration since it became operational. Would you attribute these changes to bad management?

[20:07] Or to quote former Senator Hidoshi, is this horse just too big for anybody to ride? Changes are part of the military life. Everybody goes into this knowing that tomorrow you could be some place that you hadn't even heard. That was the moment he's like, here's the setup. I've been stationed so many places over the years, I can't even remember most of them. But you're right. They're pointing out the phrase, former Senator Hidoshi. One hell of a big horse. Living your days and nights in a big tin can surrounded by a vacuum. I remember my first time on a transport. Isn't that what we are on a planet, though? Just not a tin can? Just a kid, maybe 17. A rock hurtling through space. A buddy of mine was... Surrounded by a vacuum. Zipping through the halls. And he hid in one of the airlocks. I don't know, I guess he was going to try to scare us or something. Dude, Biggs is so good. Look, he is there right now. Just as I got close, he must have hit the wrong button because the air doors slammed shut, space doors opened, and he just flew out into space. Now, the one thing they never tell you is that you don't die instantly in vacuum. Oh, really? Because I've only heard it by like 18 times. Just hung there against the black. You could see that he was trying to breathe, but there was nothing. The one thing I remember when they pulled in his body, his eyes were frozen.

[21:16] A lot of people make jokes about spacing somebody about garibaldi shoving somebody out an airlock i don't think it's funny never will so first of all that that is a a frequent threat it is and it's a very clear and explicit description of it uh fabio in here says i know you guys love to hate on franklin but this is a great scene jeff i just from our original episode that we did you specifically called this out like i know we give franklin a lot of crap but i need to give a lot of kudos to richard biggs for how he acts and in the way he does this like he is great at what he does he's good at his job and that that has to be the scene you're talking about there yeah i was gonna say i bet in our first watch i i talked trash about franklin and oh look how he thinks blah blah or whatever this was incredible even like even like in this time in franklin's life we're not we're not high on him now this is great this is really yeah and i mean it's so easy to see later later stephen franklin in in this moment right right here and and just be like yeah see look he's right there he's he's always been there um i do wonder about something though, This is just the logistics. When they, what did he say? When they roped his body back in, when they got his body back in, they pulled him back in. That's what it was. When they pulled him back in, what does that work? Like, was somebody standing there and, like, they lassoed him? Right.

[22:40] And somebody's, like, pulling him back in. Like, did they have a, did they shoot something at him that, like, grappled him or something? Like, I really wonder what the mechanic of they pulled him back in. Well, this is, I'm going to ask you to put your astrophysicist hat on and check my understanding, but things don't stand still in space, right? Right.

[23:02] In fact, that's one, and we've talked about this, one of the reasons why time travel, as we understand, it couldn't happen because if I go back to 1714 or whatever, the earth is physically in a different place.

[23:14] Yes. what you're what you're saying like back to the future delorean disappears and then reappears in that same place in that same just in a different time could not happen because the earth would be in a different spot like like even if you go back 30 years at 859 at this point like we're even in your revolving around the sun you're still not in exactly the same spot you're further down the down the road so it's not a it's not a you you would have to be moving through space and time when you're traveling yeah if that was if that was a thing so that makes me think with a body floating out there if it wasn't lassoed and somehow connected it would be hundreds of miles away by the time everything he described finished yeah and and neoreilly points out the solar system's moving too yeah like everything is moving the galaxy is moving everything everything's moving and it's all relative you just got to be relative with what you're talking about but i do also just want to point out before you hit play here um time travel is uh entirely possible outside of my own personal theories about how it works uh we do know that you can travel forward in time we just don't know that you can travel backwards in time so but we do know now like we know how to do it right now yeah we can do it right like that's real we could do it right now so also i would argue we are doing it right now oh there we go on five are considerably safer the last three years have shown that the station itself is anything but secure.

[24:37] In its first year of operation there were half a dozen murders three acts of sabotage including a bomb that blew i love the people in the background like trying to get like on tv.

[24:46] Since then whoa what was that guy doing oh jeff okay i want you to keep an eye on long hair dude.

[24:54] Long literally in the in the in the like gold shirt with the white collar and then there's the guy next to him with the weird like the cheeky thing yeah whatever on right um watch him and you interpret what you're seeing is anything but secure in its first year of operation there were looking around trying to trying to get on sabotage including a bomb that blew out two levels there and right about by the vorlan empire oh he's going for it he wasn't doing there he's either gonna bite his ear or kiss him it was one of the two right like he was like he's like eat that dude i've been waiting forever to tell this guy what i feel about him what better time than right now i love the security guy trying to break it up like everybody behind him of course there's the okay what is this alien over here that's a markab the market the markab is like just chilling like right he looks like he's about to shank her dude i know there have been 50 deaths by violence so the question remains given its cost in lives and money is babylon 5 serving any purpose or as we're about to see is the whole thing falling apart at the seams they're all like posing that's so good government and i'm prepared to issue the following statement the centauri ship that was attacked by one of our vessels was not simply a commercial transport it was secretly transferring weapons of mass destruction to ships bound for the front lines where they were to be used in the war against our people they have turned babylon 5 into a weapon supply potion we cannot allow this.

[26:23] So here we have the recap and the just reestablishment of the Narn-Satari War.

[26:31] And in that scene where we were watching the background players, Ms. Torkman was going through, just at a very high level, a lot of the acts of sabotage and crimes and things like that that happened over the last season and a half. So we're definitely getting quite a bit of clip work on this. But let's remember that the Babylon Project was conceived right after the Earthman-Barre war. At that time, the idea of a diplomatic station designed to keep anything like that from happening again was very appealing. And now?

[26:59] Not so much. Certainly we've rebuilt our military forces to a point far in advance of where they were 14 years ago. If the Earth-Minbari war started today, I think things might have gone a little differently. Very much meant for the Minbari to hear that. So I'm not sure how much concrete benefit we really derive from Babylon 5 any longer. Here's what I'm hearing from this guy. Yeah, we needed the diplomatic solution for this whole thing, but we're a little bit stronger now, or we're a lot stronger now, and we don't need the diplomatic solution. We can just defend ourselves if they want to come start some stuff anymore we got guns we're like so so because and this is the thing to discuss okay because you now have the muscle power which frankly you may not yeah i don't think they really do that like earth thought they were something back then but they weren't but let's just say you assume that you have the muscle power does that mean that you should no longer try the diplomatic solutions does that mean you should no longer invest in the diplomatic way of being or because we got guns as you said speaking as someone who did his part in the front lines i'd have to say we still haven't fully recovered from the minbari war and we haven't anywhere near the level of technology we would need in the event of another major conflict and anybody who thinks that we could hold our own against the the minbari the centauri and god forbid the vorlons is just plain kidding himself you sound angry about it no i'm frustrated with you pushing the issue. It just just sounds to me like.

[28:26] Jingoism and self-deception and armchair quarterbacking there you go anytime you lose a war you just you just wait a few years and you'll hear from everyone who thought that we could have won if they'd have done the fighting except of course captain we didn't lose the war the minbari did surrender semantics at this point lady come on i love yeah i love the look that sheridan's giving her right now of like yeah no we lost the war they might have surrendered there at the very end but we totally lost that war it's like you're so cute i love i love you yeah like.

[29:00] That's yeah that's that's so nice that you think that ask anybody in that war who wasn't called general and they'll tell you tell us if we if we saw also i love sharing it's just like no we are we are not gonna also by the way you've got a senator back on earth you've got sheridan right here on the front lines yeah okay yeah we could do this we could yeah i've listened to the people and that's what it is and you've got this guy right here who's saying let's talk about what this really looks like sometimes folks ask the people on the front lines not some senator or some secretary who's sitting up in some government position or some minister sitting up in a government position telling you what it is listen to the folks who are actually on the front lines doing and i don't i don't mean the people who've been disbarred or dislicensed or whatever i mean the people actually doing the work the for real professionals doing the things yeah paul and the experts paul in the council chambers chat makes a good point though that senator quantrell isn't just talking to the minbari he's talking to the people on earth we're armed we have guns we could even take on the minbari making so we can stop spending money out there well that is we stop any money there but if you don't line up oh we like we got we got guns we got lots of guns yeah yeah we can use them on you mm-hmm but jeff a government would never use their own military on their own people right not a free government no not a free government wouldn't happen especially.

[30:28] With one as popular as president clark who are.

[30:32] The people who run babylon five and what do they do here what are their hopes and dreams i'm uh jeff um uh our friend andrew just arrived yeah and he's asked that we restart the whole thing cool you can only watch it for the first time i'm down.

[30:50] Uh uh uh can somebody uh catch andrew up on the uh just just give him a clip the clip show version of what's happened so far but aliens make up roughly 42 percent of babylon 5's population roughly 42.18 so-called alien sector which provides alternate atmospheres for 14 different species ironically the alien sector is how the aliens here refer to the human part of the station proving once again that beauty and the beast are in the eye of the beholder. Also notice, they call us aliens, so they're we're different and they're different, so they're bad. Probably the most elusive of all the aliens is Ambassador Kosh Naranek, a representative of the Vorlanes. This is the first time we heard Naranek. We did, we talked about it. This is the first time we got his last name.

[31:40] It's Ambassador Kosh, over here! Mackie, quick, the camera! Ambassador Kosh! Ambassador! Cynthia Torkman, ISN News. Nope. Can we ask you a few questions? He noped right out of there, man. Did we get that? Tell me we got that. Did we get it? Second in elusiveness to the Vorlon is Ambassador Delann of the Minbari Federation. After initially refusing several requests for an interview, she finally agreed to talk to us. So I remember this whole scene. We reference this in future episodes as well, but Delann does not do well here. And I, I believe in our first time watch, I was particularly harsh against her. The JMS speaks to this and he says that this was likely Delenn's first real encounter with earth media on this level. She's never been put into such a situation before been challenged on screen like this, which would be the height of disrespect back home. You know, we learn later on that Minbari are only told what they need to know, you know, It's a very different thing. And so she's coming at this thinking, oh, they're going to treat me like I was being interviewed as one of the great counsel. It's just going to be one of those things.

[32:45] Your appearance, though, isn't typical of your people, is it? Yeah, she just hardened up. No. According to station records, you looked quite different a year ago. I volunteered for this change in the hope that it would lead to a better understanding between our peoples. Over a quarter of a million humans were children. Also, so I could keep an eye on Sinclair and maybe have his baby. I don't think the families of those victims will feel about your change. I don't know. I would hope. I think they would feel hurt, betrayed. That by assuming a human face, you're taking a part of us you're not entitled to. What would you say to them? To all the husbands and wives and children and brothers and sisters of the people who were killed in the war with your people. And now see a Minbari with a human face.

[33:30] I'm sorry. Can we stop this? Okay. Frankly, the questions that she is asking here. Highly inappropriate. Also 100% fair. Okay. Okay. I feel like it's such a they might be those two things are not necessarily mutually exclusive like they can coexist right um they might be diametrically opposed but they can coexist very inappropriate but also fair like what i mean by that is like dylan should have had some answers for this you know and and i hear what you're saying like she thought they were going to come in and just sort of talk about whatever and be afford her all of this respect these are questions Dillon honestly probably should have thought of long before now. And if you are an ambassador and you're taking on an ambassadorial role, and I think maybe we can give her a little bit of grace considering the fact that Dillon is not necessarily a trained ambassador. She's a great council person that has come here to observe this guy. And now this guy is not here anymore.

[34:36] So Um, but this is a question she should have, she, she needed to have thought this through at some point, even just in private, you know, like, Hey, so what are they going to think? Not only what are my people going to think, what are they going to think when they see me do this? Well, I'm doing this for all of us. It's important that we, it's important to us. And this is what unifies us again, like that. And frankly, that needed to be an answer that could come real fast. Now, the other thing I could possibly see is Dylan, correct me if I'm wrong, is probably experiencing certain emotions that she's never felt before possible, or maybe she's experiencing certain hormonal changes at various times.

[35:23] Throughout the course of a month that she has not yet learned how to navigate on a rotating basis yet you know what i mean and so maybe this is happening at just the wrong time for her that he's feeling rather not just vulnerable but all of a sudden emotional about some of this stuff well i think and she doesn't know how to navigate it and and becky in the in the council chambers chat is on the exact same place i'm at after gropo's where she was literally attacked for this thing like this is a thing she she had to have thought about but beyond that the multiple times in this season that she's been faced with bro what are you doing from everyone from other gray council members to ground pounders to chudomo mates of lanier and everyone in between all i mean yeah she took this on herself this wasn't something that minbari wanted to do this was her own self righteous.

[36:14] I believe in this prophecy. So I'm going to do this thing. This is the calling of my heart. Yep. This is, this is my thing. And you can't tell me no. And now, and now that I've done it and you're telling me no, or you're question, you're even questioning it. I'm going to get upset with you. I'm going to, with Ashen last week and, and you know, she's off. She's like, I'm out. I'm not even going to do it. And I praised her for that because I mean, dude was just being a bigot. But when you look at that in the bigger context of how she's behaved since this change it's like she is begging begging for like hey look at me i'm different please come at me and let me make a big deal out of it or it's like hey look i'm different make sure you say something about it but if you say something about it i'm gonna freak out so let me you you just said something that cute in something i've never thought about before let me put a different spin on this and see how it sticks okay you just said based off what becky said back in grow pose she was physically attacked and i mean and she almost ate it she did it was bad you know i mean like she could have died had garibaldi not stepped in avonava not stepped in somebody stepped in i don't even remember lanier i don't know somebody stepped in right she she could have legit died in that moment when earth people saw this face.

[37:31] What if what we're seeing now is her actually having a little bit of like PTSD flashback to that moment right there? Oh, okay. This is not emotion over like grief of what's going on. This is a, I, I, I'm like, she's almost having a panic attack feeling like she's back in that spot again. That is a really interesting take. I really wonder if that might not be more like that actually makes this make a lot more sense to me if you think about it in those terms another thought i had during this dodger there the council chambers thank you guys dodger stepped in and saved her i thought i had on this was torqueman's coming at her and i said this was highly inappropriate because she's like hey let's have an interview let's talk about your role let's talk about the station and then she's coming at her for cultural appropriation you know just out of nowhere and uh there's a word you know for that kind of journalism i forget what it is it's not great but understanding that basically she was the deciding factor in launching the war and then to have this put here all these people died because of your decision delen and now you put this face on and expect everything to be cool i'm just thinking about that in her mind like there has to be some reckoning of that within her as well and and i do want to you know i remember when we first got through that whole that whole piece in um atonement i believe it was when we first saw that uh i am still going to.

[38:56] Defend defend the Lynn that just because hers was the last vote yeah it was not her responsibility it was not on her solely I agree that she bears that that uh that guilt now that doesn't necessarily mean she doesn't personally take that guilt on that's where I'm just saying she shouldn't because that's not her thing but it still means she could if she voted second yeah she voted second it would have been different whatever and I agree but it's that it's my fault because xyz happened like I I think I'm speaking from the narrative that she has, that she started it, that she did it. And also the fact that like 10 minutes later, she was like, hey, I'm, whoa, I made a mistake, but cat's out of the bag and you can't put this toothpaste back in the tube. But see, here's the danger of this, Jeff.

[39:41] Okay she's having this internal response right now and what's going on inside all that we as the observer oh i'm sorry all that the people who are watching on tv back home can do is just try to interpret what she's feeling now yeah and either one she's actually having a ptsd moment where she's flashing back and she's she's kind of having a panic attack or man she's feeling all this guilt and she knows she's wrong and she's and you see how this can spin out of control and take it whichever way you're going to take it we've not asked hey dylan what's going on right now yeah nope tell us what's happening be honest like like you know process it yourself because you may not even really understand what's going on right now but what's actually happening right now and the fact is we don't don't know we don't it's us the viewer interpreting something on top of her probably based frankly on our own predilections of what we already believe or want to believe exactly i think torquemans got exactly the reaction she was hoping to get absolutely she was also highly inappropriate for her to be going after an ambassador like this yeah and once again she should have her media credentials agreed that's not censorship that's unprofessional there are ways to ask all of these same questions that are in appropriate ways also if dylan had a PR team, they would have established, what questions are okay and not okay to talk about. And they would have stepped in and been like, we're done. This interview's over.

[41:10] And now, thanks to Commander Ivanova's investigation, we have proof of what we've been saying all along. An inspection of the destroyed Centauri has found conclusive proof that she was carrying fusion bombs and support equipment for ion cannons, mass drivers, and heavy energy weapons!

[41:31] When does Sheridan wear dress uniforms to the council? He does. That's not an uncommon thing. Is it? It is not to be used as a staging ground or a munition. Depot i may make an observation is this kind of irresponsible activity ambassador that endangers this station and everyone here classified will not be tolerated transferred outside the station ship to ship the risk to babylon five is minimal oh we've already seen it was within 1100 feet of a school not a thousand feet by their attack on one of our vessels our ships have the right to carry any cargo they choose we will not surrender our sovereign rights the sovereign rights of any race end where they threaten innocence they're doing what they always do using details to distract us from doing what must be done that's huge using the details to distract us from what was done how often brent does that happen to us forever right i don't care who the company is who the politician is whatever i don't care who it is someone does something bad and all of a sudden there's going to be well there's this thing over here and then everyone starts arguing about this thing over here and we forget this other big thing here there they are met they the italicized capital they are masterful at this yeah we've got a shooting war going on out here.

[42:51] You guys couldn't have waited till tomorrow right the sounds you hear are heavy weapons, Centauri vessels doing battle just outside Babylon. Get out of their way, lady. The station is on a priority one alert, and people are being evacuated to shelters. Two non-vessels destroyed, two damaged, and out of the fight. Remaining Centauri vessels are offering to surrender. All right, pick them up, bring them in, and throw them in the break. And I want every one of those ships scanned for weapons. And tell Ambassadors Jakar and Londo I want to see them in chambers now. Right now. Then you can throw them in the... Pot of it's on top of it. Then invite them again as firmly and as politely as you can. This nonsense has gone far enough so there's a thing right sheridan and vanova have a working relationship they have a short code also because of this established relationship they can say things to each other that the other one can interpret as that's not what he really means he's just exaggerating he's just blowing hot air i'm and and and the other guy can feel safe letting a little vent off like that yeah and then you put the camera on them all of a sudden people oh you You see what he said?

[43:57] And, and you know, this is exactly why having media in the locker room. I just think in general is about it, especially post game. Like you do it during the middle of the week when they're doing practice and stuff. Fine. But you know, post game when stuff is feeling the way it's feeling.

[44:11] Yeah. You gotta, gotta cool off time is period, but you know.

[44:17] Recording private conversations like that, just the nonsense captain Sheridan referred to is the non Centauri war. Which over the past several months has grown into a conflict which threatens to spill into other systems and lead to an escalation of... And here he is just brushing it off as nonsense.

[44:35] ISN spoke with representatives from both sides in order to better understand the history of this conflict. Oh, this is good. I remember this. 150 of your years ago, the Centauri came to our world. We greeted them in peace and spent the next hundred years in chains. So this would mean Jakar has never known Narn to be a green place. Exactly. Unless he's just that old, which I don't think the man lived that long. My family lived in Jakamazad, one of the larger cities on Narn. My father served in a Centauri household during the last years of the rebellion. Did you catch the name of the town that they lived in or the side? Jakamazad or something like that? Jakamazad. I wonder if there's an intentionality because that sort of Islamabad. Islamabad is does like it sounds very Middle Eastern very you know not European I should say you know what I mean like it sounds very oh it's those guys are I wonder if that was a little bit of intent from JMS or if he just really liked because Amazon right he's like this is a fun like, There are humans for whom the words never again carry special meanings they do for us. That's a good connection point right there. We are just like you.

[45:48] Well, especially for us living in a post 9-11 world. Oh my gosh, yes. You know what I mean? I mean, the closest thing to 9-11 that I can think of back at this point was Pearl Harbor. Yeah. Which was back in the 40s. Now, there might have been some other never-agains, but nothing that I'm aware of. Yeah. You know. To that scale. Yeah. Yeah. Not to the scale that 9-11 hit. And even, I mean, how many years has it been since 9-11 now? 24.

[46:18] Like a quarter, almost a quarter of a century. Yeah. Long time. And we haven't had anything to that scale just yet, at least here in our country. Certainly around the world, there have been places where we've seen that. You know, never again is this going to happen. In the chat, Fabio just talks about how great Andres Katsoulis is in this scene. But I want to shift that a little bit to Jakar, just the masterful way he handled this. Torkman asked him this big question. Tell me about the Narn Centauri thing. Like, what's the history? He takes that massive thing and takes it down to, let me tell you this very specific story about me, my mom, and my dad. And he tells it in a way that, like, it is impossible for you to not be like, oh, my God, you poor kid, you poor Narn. I mean, just everything he did here is – the artistry is unbelievable. It's top, top notch. So over in our council chambers, several, several of them kind of all together all put up talking about this. We were talking about Pearl Harbor, talking about 9-11 saying in this particular reference, this never again reference.

[47:26] Is a specific reference to the jewish holocaust that was the reference um to which my my question back then is where does did jms say that in the lurker's guide because clearly jms has, definitively said this is what i meant by that in that moment i didn't see it when i was looking through it but you didn't see it in the lurker's guide i wonder where he well but but i think it, is the thing that just like that is the thing with the holocaust is never sure i have i have no doubts that that that's the appropriate response because it should be or that that's what he was just saying what what i'm saying is is that uh somewhere along the way jms must have said talking about this things that we've never forgotten this i was specifically referring to the jewish holocaust just because you know we we know how this how this goes and so many people i i i see i see you guys right now in the council you guys are you're just repeating that that's what he was my question is is where did he say that i don't i don't think he say that i don't think he had to it'd be like if i said i'm loving it and i'm and and you'd be like where did he say he was referencing mcdonald's well it's the thing i don't know about that but okay and maybe that's what they're uh suzanne says never again is not a generic phrase oh okay yeah it's it's the thing about the holocaust about the holocaust yeah.

[48:45] And everything leading up to it, like the whole totality of what happened there. Okay. Hey, you know what? People in council chambers are actually echoing exactly what you're just saying, to which I'll go, cool. Brent just learned something because that's not something that I grew up around hearing that that's what that meant. So I just learned something. Cool. We will never fall back. We will never surrender. I grabbed our hammer. When we first met the norm, they were what?

[49:12] Primitive people. We gave them technology centuries ahead of their own, took them with us to the stars, taught them laws, civilized them. They repaid us with terror and death. Then you weren't driven off the Narn homeworlds. The Narn have rewritten history. Is it? Don't you think? Please. If they wanted us gone, we were hardly going to force the issue. But ever since, they have grown more and more irascied. Revisionist history, isn't it? to seize Centauri territory. Finally, we had to take a stand. But you take this, juxtapose it with how Jakar handled this exact same thing. He used a very personal story to show how evil the Centauri are in a way that you can't argue with. Londo is talking in this big general, they are awful. They, we, you know, there's no I in what Londo said. And he's just coming off as like a blovi, he's coming off as a bloviating ambassador in the middle of a war. The difference in the presentation between the two is so, so stark. They were the ones who declared war, remember? We want only peace.

[50:20] We blew up their calling, but I mean, they declared war. As we've just seen, the reality is anything but peaceful. If we don't act in our own defense... I love how Londo is leaning back. Right. Centauri Cruiser is arming weapons. He looks like Jabba the Hutt sitting back there on his thing. He's got all the big, like, fancy stuff behind him. Sentai custody intact and unopened. ISN, the galaxy's most important network.

[50:46] This is great. John, why aren't you outside playing with the other kids? They hate me. Now, John. It's true. I'm just... I'm different, Mom. I can feel what they think about me. Don't worry, Johnny. We'll take care of it from here. Mom, look, a psychop. That's right, Johnny. You know, there are a lot of other kids who feel just the same way you do. They're confused and afraid. They don't have to be. The problem isn't that other kids don't like you. It's that they don't understand you. But we do. This isn't a bad commercial. Like, seems great. You're a latent telepath about to come into full bloom. How do I find one? We're everywhere. For your convenience. We're everywhere. We have offices and schools and children's hospitals. We even have mobile testing centers that travel the country. And we'll give them a mate and try to do stuff. I can't believe it. Give them a new haircut. We're all so proud Banded collared shirts Buttoned all the way to the top So stylish Or think you might be one yourself, them get the help they need okay we just saw it right saw it flash up yeah uh jms says that very few have noted the play on the title the usual complete phrase is and now a word from our sponsor so what was the only sponsored commercial shown in the 2259 version oh.

[52:07] Then says what we did in the commercial was totally legit we researched and found that the FCC considers a subliminal to be two frames per second. So we made the blip four frames total, but yeah, we're watching the broadcast. This is the only commercial. That's, that's, that's an interesting thought. ISN is, is sponsored by, or this particular is sponsored by Psycor. They're the only ones you got to placate your sponsors, right? Uh-huh. Interesting. That's great. Journalism, Especially for JMS, who was a journalist, right? Exactly. having that background and understanding how all of this works right but you know it also has the integrity of a journalist seeing journalists not by that integrity yeah you realize if they do attack the transport they'll turn right around and fire on us next figuring we'll have to retaliate that's an interesting camera angle i know kind of makes him look evil villainous almost main bot 12 how often have we heard about the maintenance bots, You see their weapons targeting us? That's interesting. Open fire. Uh-oh. Yeah, not so good. Babylon control to Narn Cruiser. We do not, repeat, we do not require assistance. We have the situation under control. Narn Cruiser powering up weapon systems. Oh, that's right. No, listen to me. We do not need...

[53:33] Dude, look at that ship. That thing's a beast. Dude, those spins on the back. Uh-huh. Get me that cruiser, and I don't care how you do it. Get her off the bridge. Yeah. Yeah. Close my door, stop.

[53:53] Hey, is that foreshadowing of how Bonova's going to eventually get it? Oh, wow. Wow, with the thing flying right at it? Just saying. Probably not intentional, but I'll count it. As journalists, we would be remiss in our responsibilities if we suggested that events such as those you've just witnessed were typical of the situation on Babylon 5. Like anyone else, they have good days and bad days. But there can be no question that it is a flashpoint that can only grow hotter as time passes. And yet growth only comes through pain and struggle. So perhaps we should allow Babylon 5 time to realize or... I'm sorry. I hate to keep pausing this. No, you don't. What did she just say? Growth... Only comes through pain and struggle oh man jeff she is this show to the people of earth.

[54:42] This show is sponsored by psychor we know psychor is in bed with the shadows and the shadows whole philosophy is conflict pain growth what she just said there is straight out of the shadows playbook that's so great good on you because i just went to the level of hey people of earth things are gonna suck so you know just know but going to that next level of that freaking brilliant that's great and here's the thing no one ever doing a first watch of this show would ever pick up on that nope not not even a tiny bit and i and i dare say probably most people doing a second watch would.

[55:24] Still not pick up on that that's a third fourth maybe even fifth watch type thing to pick up on just taking a guess and the only reason why you and i picked up on that jeff is because we're we're watching for these things like that we're looking for that kind of stuff um and i don't know maybe maybe people in the culture i caught it the first time around what are you talking about and okay they did it should be weird because we don't know that about the shadows right now yeah we don't none of the things yeah so either we're just we're particularly normal or we're just picking up on it because we're we're doing the podcasting thing where we're looking for it but that's that's wow yeah we know the shadows are kind of interfering in earth behind all that yeah one day even exceed the dreams we have invested in it we'll be back with some concluding thoughts right after this message so the growth only comes through pain and.

[56:15] Struggle maybe we should just let babylon 5 figure it out figure it out for themselves like.

[56:20] Wow it's a shadowy thing i gotta tell you though jeff as a parent right now i've often said i still think the vorlons are still the good guys compared to louis speaking i think the the yeah my problem with the shadows is is they don't allow the pain and struggle to come up naturally they force it and they they force it okay but as a parent when my children are in the middle of something i am very aware that i don't always go to the rescue exactly they've got to learn this one and they will learn this through the pain and the struggle better than if i just go give them the answer but i say it would also be very remiss of me if i intentionally put them through pain and struggle you're also on the outskirts when in those situations where you're like hey figure it out i'm gonna still battle off the stuff over here so they'll feel it but they're not gonna get hurt i gotta tell you i uh so so my kids are are 13 and 10 right about a year ago at 12 and 9 we were at disney go figure my family's at disney and you know at disney at seven years old kids can ride by themselves okay it's wild yeah but they can they can ride by themselves and so i was kind of saying like are they old enough now or especially if they stay together can i let them just sort of like go off in the park on their own like i like i didn't know all right folks listen i i've never had a 12 and 9 year old before this point like i'm i'm still figuring this out are they old enough to kind of go and so i was like okay you two stick together.

[57:47] You guys can go ride that ride and and i'll i'll hang out over here and you guys can just kind of like let's let's give them some leash let's see what happens they got about 10 steps down the way and i went nope not a good idea but but but i didn't go call them back i just watched them and i followed yeah hung back a little bit right and and and they went to ride i remember as pirates of the caribbean i was two boats behind them they didn't see me the whole way but i i had eyes on them for most of the way, you know what i mean because i was like but i still needed to let them at least feel like they were off on their own doing that kind of stuff but i gotta tell you i was to what you're just saying like i'm still on the outskirts like nope i wasn't i wasn't quite ready for that one just yet like so now that we know that we can make sure it doesn't happen anymore we learned we learned what humans do yes it is misunderstandings aside we'll talk about it later jeff we'll talk about that is what humans do my god we well it's what we can do to a peaceful protest by my government and with the intervention of earth perhaps and keep them from making a similar mistake we just watched how none of it was peaceful but i said it was peaceful so now it is i used to think so but now.

[59:01] Yes everywhere humans go they create communities out of diverse and sometimes hostile populations it is a great gift and a terrible responsibility one that cannot be abandoned well i guess we'll just have to see okay we got it we just we have to say it because first of all i'm not going to capture i'm sure we captured it the first time humans have a unique quality in that they create communities out of diverse people it is a terrible responsibility and a bird whatever she said and it's one that cannot be abandoned right it's like nobody else is doing that i don't know what the whole quote is but put that up on a plaque it's a core message of so much sci-fi humanity's strength is in its diversity bringing people together now get the hell out of our galaxy exactly exactly.

[59:48] Won't we if we weren't here right now half the people in this room would be dead now that should be a good enough answer for any look to your left look to your right if we weren't here one of those would be dead have a retirement pension to make you know yes let's go right but not for any of the reasons that you've probably been told before he goes there what a what a great just contrast we build communities we're having the conversations uh people come to like all these big things bro i just got a pension to make like there's all this stuff here and then there's just the people show up every day just trying trying to make today a little bit better than the one before i think it's huge we're not just holding jobs and having dinner we are in the process of building the future that's what babylon 5 is all about that's what babylon 5 is all about only by making people understand the show or the station can we hope to yes create a better world for ourselves and our posterity.

[1:00:52] I'm Cynthia Torkman, ISN News. Good night. Fascinating. It even made me. Go ahead. I'll say fascinating to end on such a high note.

[1:01:01] Yes. You and I are after this entire railroad job that they've basically been doing to end on that is a note with no commentary whatsoever.

[1:01:15] Yeah. Yeah. It's nuts. although although maybe it's not so nuts because maybe the psychology behind it i don't know but railroad job beat him up awful awful let sheridan hit that piece at the end because then everything we're doing from that we earth alliance is really that just trying to create a better future like they they let it sit in sheridan's mouth instead of theirs maybe well i mean they they're certainly a piece of uh what is the point of this whole thing well they start at the beginning is the cost and everything worth what we're putting into this because a lot of people don't think it is anymore and they start with senator what's his face saying oh right no okay dude and we get all the way down here the end is it worth it is it worth it yes it's worth it yes it's worth it's worth it on so many galactic levels so many interplanetary levels it's worth it to the individual dude who's just trying to make a pension yeah oh yeah it's also worth it to our his words are inheritors i love that and it's worth it to all of them and so yeah we should keep doing it and keep doing the thing uh that we got going on interesting interesting way to end that episode jeff i want to start this part of our conversation with a simple question.

[1:02:32] I want you to think forward to the episode and i forget the name but i want to say it's in season four maybe season three it's it's the other news episode yeah only this uh yeah illusions of reality or something like that whatever that is yeah but in this time it's it's a it's a male reporter coming in and basically and he tries to sell them this line like hey listen nobody else has given you the press that i'm about to give you nobody's gonna get what you have and i remember thinking with that episode like he comes in and he runs a complete and total railroad job there if you watch his report there is this sort of thread line that does seem a little subversive now he has to maintain a cover for his overlords but if he puts in this little thread line that yeah it looks like it's really bad but he's kind of screwing in there maybe he actually wasn't just a piece of scum but he's he's really kind of helping is this lady because of the way they edited it and they ended on that note.

[1:03:32] Is she maybe in that same vein as him or is she just an awful reporter? Right. I don't know. And I think that was the focus of our conversation about that episode, Illusion of Truth. We really asked that question. Did he let him get shared and get that line out or was this whole thing just him just being a piece of a piece of absolute garbage? And I think the answer, I like to think the answer is both. He's a piece of absolute garbage and he gave him a piece. But I think this is one of two things. It's either let's put our agenda into Sheridan's mouth and let that be how we sign off or they just don't care.

[1:04:08] I don't know that they put that much intent in. They either put a ton of intent into it or none at all. I don't think it's her trying to throw him a bone in any way. I didn't get any impression from her of like, oh, you're winning me over in some way or anything. She's just slamming everybody. Jeff, that's our second watch of, and now for a word. Yeah. dude we watched we talked about you said at the beginning yeah second time through it's kind of boring for us but we didn't know what was coming we didn't know what we didn't know and now that we do we didn't brand this episode is huge it's it's it's compelling it's big it there's there's foreshadowing there's there's world building there's actual execution of stuff happening like Like, it's so, so brilliant and so well done. Can I tell you something?

[1:04:57] Specifically looking for all the clip show parts of this, I, watching this now, I didn't feel like there was really a lot of that in here. We lost that? Like, the little game? It was a little bit, but it didn't feel like there was a ton in there. This felt like there was this whole other thing. And I know what everybody was saying. It's not a clip show. It shows you what's going on back on Earth. And I'm sitting here going, yeah. it's showing you a lot more than what and and it's so much more than just a clip show it's so much more to this episode than just catching us up on what's been going on and i never knew it i never saw it and i wouldn't have seen it back then couldn't have seen it because now we know it's again we know this is again again the value of the second watch on this and i think you know we talked at length in our first time viewing around the messages in this one and there's a lot of conversation to be had around that but my real focus this time around is just that like yes it's a clip show without being a clip show and it's an episode that moves the story forward it lives in the past it lives in the present and it's setting up the future it's such it's just such a brilliantly.

[1:06:08] Put together episode i i think there are places where i forget exactly what this episode is telling us has already happened yeah because it's just wide knowledge like everybody should just know like going through that whole thing with the land of like you were this and now you're this and you transition and this people had a hard time with this and da da da da watching this the first time it's like yeah of course that's what we were just watching now it's like oh no but there's this whole other thing going on you know uh when she's saying it and so listen i i will i will echo.

[1:06:41] What i said what you said the first time this is an episode that clearly is designed to catch people up on where they need to be yeah but it is so much more than that and my respect is off the charts for jms and how he put this episode together and the way he crafted this to do the job it needed to do without doing it the way that it's really frankly ever been done and maybe never been done since yeah it's so good as as just a single 45 minute piece of art for doing what it needed to do and doing it in the way that it did do you need this episode no as a part of the overall story of babylon five no and here's the thing no most episodes so far in season two you don't.

[1:07:28] Need without them right it's less this it and and truly this episode in many ways does feel like okay something is about to happen we are about to launch like like we feel like we're on the precipice of something right now with where we are when i was going through the the jms stuff at the beginning he talked about the letter he wrote to to warner warner brothers saying hey this is an important episode. He said, he wrote the letter to explain why it was done and why it should be produced. And then he talked about how, Hey, this is a great one to introduce people to the show. Yeah. The reason he thought this was important to be produced in this, I'm, I'm, this is the message from JMS. And this message, Brent is more timely right now than it was in the mid nineties when this came out, it was timely then as well. Yeah. But he says that uncritically dismissing everything you see on TV is just as wrong as accepting everything that you see, what people need are the tools to examine what they see in here and weigh them against the true gold standard, common sense. And I, and I take that a step further common sense. Yeah, but there's a whole, you know, common sense. If it was as common as we think it is, we'd be in a different thing or whatever.

[1:08:49] It's critical thinking. You know, we have people that fall into two camps, and he named them here. Well, it said the news said, so it's this. Or, but the news said, so it's the opposite.

[1:09:01] Again, just two totally, think for yourself. Lay that lens of common sense to anything that's being said, and most of what we're being told now, in the past, likely in the future, doesn't stand up to even the first blush of like, oh, does this make any real sense? Yeah, it does not. it really doesn't jeff were there any new messages you think you found this time i don't know that i found new ones outside of this one i think we did a really good job in the first time pulling out the messages but i think i think what i really got out of this and this isn't so much a message as it is just a way to think about the world i guess is we have londo coming at things at this big macro all these people suck and we are all such victims and jakar saying me my mom and my dad is one thing we talk about this a lot on this program when you think in generalities and big things it's easy to hate that's where harm can happen when you think about that person who has a name and a family it's a lot harder to hate jakar's approach to this touched me in a way where i was like oh my god what a horrible history we have to uncouple the narn and the centaur in some way whereas londos was just like wow i'm kosh let them both blow up the way it came that's what i kind of got out of this additionally what what did you get.

[1:10:22] Man there were there were a few things we talked about it in the episode so i'll just i'll mention them here but i'm not going to rehash them uh listen to the experts in the field you we know when the senator or whomever is twisting stuff and doing the jangling like let's actually listen to the real folks out there okay not everything is a conspiracy theory folks right yes really not like these are just what they are yeah yeah exactly um dylan said this the sovereign rights of any race end when they threaten another yes jacar says why does any civilization seek to destroy a less advanced one because they can because they can or land and i'm like yep that.

[1:11:05] Yeah talk about a mirror to society um garibaldi says this and you pointed this out jeff he says we'll learn yeah it's what humans do yeah it's what we do man can we can we apply this to hope for a better future you know what i mean like like yeah look we're gonna go through this the struggle let's let's boil it down to this the struggle is worth it no it's not going to be pretty no it's not going to be clean yes it's going to be very messy at times yeah but the struggle is worth it why because we as a as a as a species we learn now sometimes we have to learn the same lesson over and over and over again before it sticks over a period of hundreds or even thousands of years right sometimes each generation has to learn it for themselves but we learn.

[1:11:54] It's what humans do so is it worth it yeah humans have a unique ability to to create communities yeah these are things that we are learning but i love love love what sheridan said at the end and i think we may have talked about this in the first go around because if we didn't then we certainly slacked in our job when you stumble a lot and i'll say this i think we at least in my country here have stumbled a lot over the last at least 20 some years 250 years that's what i was gonna say about okay yeah sure but you know and and i'm i'm not going back to just current stuff i mean over the last 20 there's been a lot of stumbling in my adult life that i've seen and he says this when you stumble a lot you begin to look at your feet what we need to do is to lift our eyes back to the horizon so we can see our ancestors and our inheritors. Now, there were lots of other words that the full quote is there, but that's when you stumble a lot, you begin to look at your feet. That's the natural way.

[1:12:55] We're caught up in the muck and the mire of this, and we've really got to stop and we need to look up and see the whole thing. We need to see the horizon. We got to see where we've come from. We got to see where we're going. And that's what we need to be focused on not the ground at our feet i remember when i was learning how to drive jeff yeah oh you're gonna say something that ties to what sheridan said in the council chambers as well or jakar said they're distracting us with the details look at this thing look at this over here instead of the big actual thing going on will we do that by looking at our one step in front of the other instead of looking up i remember when i was learning how to drive jeff the driving instructor told me this he said don't like i was kind of like like trying to keep your car between the lines Right. He said, don't, don't look at the road right in front of you, which you want to look as far out as you can look at the car. That's as far out as out there. Look at the Hill. Look where the road goes off. Like, look, look out there.

[1:13:49] And keep your eyes focused there and if you keep your eyes focused out there guess what's going to happen you're going to stay in the lines but if you start focusing on the the part of the road that's directly in front of your car you.

[1:14:01] Know what you're going to constantly be doing you're going to be shimmying left and right because things you're going to you're just going to constantly be doing this focus on that out there and keep going when you um uh when you're plowing a field i hear the same thing is true when you're plowing a field now i've never personally plowed a field like to keep like a straight line right you you got you look at a tree and you follow the tree you don't look at the ground that you're plowing you look at a tree and you follow the tree right you find you find yourself a fixed point and you follow that point out there lift our eyes back to the horizon and great episode yeah all the way around by the way i'm pretty sure we rated this one like five deltas and four star fury we'd be correct to have done so and yeah like oh my gosh so good so good well jeff along with uh researching this show and looking at those things that you know uh bring up the messages and all that sort of stuff the the main thing really this is the crux of the whole thing we are creating the 100 completely accurate and definitive ranking of of star trek stargate or babylon five we're doing it for babylon one of season two um hey you know what our current top five okay we got 14 episodes on the docket but our top five let's see if our top five is going to be changing number five is an episode called all alone in the night number four is a race through.

[1:15:23] Dark places three is the geometry of shadows two is soulmates one is coming of shadows jeff you get one chance and one chance alone to place this in the definitive and correct position in our ranking is it in the top five if so where error or are you wrong i will not be wrong what's interesting we usually do this afterwards but i want to do it before i before i rank it in our first time viewing where do you think we placed this one this was probably way low i'm going to guess like uh 16 or below like 18 19 it was 19 19 19 yeah which i think i think if we were to if we were to rewind the tape the reason we placed there's because we felt like it wasn't an important episode exactly not that it was a bad episode it just wasn't an important episode to to muster much more than that this brent might be the episode with the largest margin of change from first time to second time and i feel like there will be there's going to be thoughts around this ranking but i'm going to put this one brent, It's our new number four of a race through dark places and right below the geometry of shadows. So, Jeff, ultimately, this is our ranking, right? Our definitive 100% completely accurate ranking. It is. Yeah. Immutable. Objectively.

[1:16:44] Well, it's immutable until we mute it. Correct. Yeah. So, or mutate it, I guess, is really the operative phrase there. Let's do just a quick check in. Okay. Okay. Because something is standing out to me and i'm wondering does one of these not belong looking at our top four episodes there's the coming of shadows soulmates which i love that episode yeah yeah the geometry of shadows and now for a word do we need to make a shift here or is this the actual correct top four or are we due for a shift getting rid of some recency bias and all that sort of stuff and looking at it objectively or are we still 100 correct you're gonna hate me for what my thought is on this soulmates don't get too crazy don't don't go get don't you get too crazy on me no jeff i'm not gonna say it doesn't belong in the top five at this point but i'm gonna say it doesn't belong in the top three i agree no i i agree i what i what i what i actually think okay i am placing and now for a word where it is because we've placed some others, others lower because they are pavement lane episodes. Right.

[1:17:55] But this one between the messages that it carries, the masterful artistry that it was construed, this episode was constructed, written, performed, directed, lit, everything. Like it is, it is a, it's a masterpiece. So what I'm thinking right now, and I'm open to debate is moving soulmates just below. And now for a word. i i a race through dark places was the one with bester right yes underground railroad which is a great episode i i think the actual conversation is uh and i like all alone in the night i think that's fine it's okay one soulmates is such a great episode on so many levels yeah and it's so fun okay i think the actual debate is does it go above or below race through dark places not does it drop below and now for a word and i think i could make the argument and you said it it's the underground railroad episode and and all of that that it carries it's possible to me that this is actually our the soulmates is currently actually our number five episode wow let me put it there and see what it looks like well the the it's it's not going to create the christmas tree effect i know i'm all about that christmas tree effect on another show right but uh.

[1:19:11] But just kind of feeling this out because I heartburned with and now for a word on a race through dark places. But I think that and now for a word touches on like everything but the cycle, but the best or stuff, but it touches on the cycle stuff like a race to dark places is an incredible view of this thing. And now for a word covered the series. I think we got it all. I got to be honest, but I think this looks good with. yeah i think soulmates soulmates is actually our number five at this point i do like it better certainly than grow pose and i like it better i think than all alone in the night for sure um i think this is so our top five as it is right now official immutable and 100 completely accurate the coming of shadows the geometry of shadows and now for a word shadows and a race through dark shadows and then shadow mates oh my gosh and you know yeah yeah you should you should uh transition us to the next episode because that that's that's an interesting on this exact theme well jeff that's gonna do it for and now for a word moving on to our next episode jeff we are watching in the zaha doom of shadows sorry in the shadow of zaha doom jeff in the shadow of zaha doom we have still you guys keep telling me about the zaha doom and we've never heard about it yet.

[1:20:31] What is this episode about what did you think this episode would be about the first time we came through and we had to predict and we hadn't watched it yet my prediction was very simple this is going to be the start of the actual great war that's referenced in the opening credits.

[1:20:46] Oh yeah that was the year the great war came upon us and you were so mad that they gave us that yep and i say it was a brilliant brilliant line still that's expectation what was your prediction, uh i said this was the return of zathras okay okay it's the return of zathras that's all it would be he's in the shadow of zaha doom yeah zathras the return of zathras yeah this is a big one brent this is this is one of the pole in the tent episodes for this uh for the season for sure and for the series maybe overall as a whole and we're gonna watch it right here next week thank you for being here with us for this uh in-depth discussion on the second time of and now for a word. It was fantastic. I'm glad you were here with us. If you haven't already, please subscribe, like rate review, leave a comment. If you're able to, the one thing you can do that makes a real difference. And we appreciate so much is share this show and what better time we're heading into the shadow of Zaha doom. This is the stuff, man. This is the stuff, share it, get your buddies watching it. It's going to be fantastic. So we'll see you next week until next time. Yeah. Brent, what uh what's up not much i uh just wanted to take a second for this word from our sponsors, i mean we're not some some deep space franchise this station is about something.