And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time.

[0:51] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a show that you get to watch for the first time, twice. That's right. But don't worry, folks. I know you're worried about it. No need to be worried about it. Jeff and I are still doing the thing. We're doing the thing, Jeff. It's the thing. You know, the thing where we look for messages that are contained within, maybe the ones we got before, maybe new ones. We have a different perspective this time around. Maybe it's some new ones. But hey, speaking of this time around, that means there was another time around for Jeff and I. Yes, this is Jeff and mine's second time coming through this series, which means as far as we're concerned, anything and everything is fair game for us to talk to. That's anything from any point in the timeline, any point in the franchise, whether it's on screen, off screen, in a comic book, in a novel. Maybe it was something that was talked about at a convention. Maybe it's just fan theories online. Whatever. It is all fair game for Jeff and I to discuss. So if you have not seen this incredible show for the first time, we invite you to stop this and go listen to our first time, which was entirely spoiler free. We had an incredible community around us keeping us spoiler free. And there were people that were trying to trying to shoot us down. Yep. But we had people propping us up and we thank you guys for that and trust us. It is just better in that way. So that being said.

[2:18] My warning is sincere. Ignore it at your own peril.

[2:22] This uh week brent we're watching and the rock cried out no hiding place for the second time, what did you predict this episode was going to be about i said it'd be about the rock literally the rock as in dwayne the rock johnson wwe that's right it's the crossover do you smell well no you can't because it's television we don't have smell-o-vision anymore uh i i said somebody's hunting down somebody that's all i had all right i couldn't go much further than that how about you man what'd you have well i'm literally wearing my shirt today as a direct response to your prediction so it's fun for me i love it because the rock was in degeneration x no he was not but it's just a wrestling thing wrestling thing i predicted brother you know you know you know what the rock would say it doesn't matter what what the rock would say, uh let's see my prediction was that brother theo and his crew you know they're out learning the uh different names of God. So they're going to go, I got super specific here. So they go talk to Jakar about Jaquan. Jakar starts talking about his dust to dust vision and all the stuff he learned about Londo. So then they go to Londo, not necessarily to learn about the name of his God, but to try and get him to confess and ask for forgiveness and all that kind of stuff. And things are not going to end well for Brother Theo.

[3:43] Isn't this Brother Theo's final appearance on the show? It is. Yes. Man, remember when we thought he was going to be such a much larger part of the story? Yeah. You know? It's too bad because he's really a great character. He really is. And the monks doing their thing. It's these little things that you feel like they're going to be a part of the big story at the end. Like we're collecting all the pieces and then they're not. Yeah, they're in the background. No, no, no, no, no. They're a part of it. Yeah.

[4:12] Come on, guys. But yeah, in a way, we both kind of hit pieces of it. Brother Theo is in it. Londo is in it. And they are hunting down Rifa, sort of. So, I mean, you know, we're not too far off. Well, Jeff, that's what we predicted. We were not there. We were not there. Why don't we take a look at what we said the first time around about this episode on our first watch? Yes, let's do it. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time. And the rock cried out no hiding place retribution revenge manipulation and a well-earned romance something is off about this episode something just doesn't feel right but in all honesty i like this episode this is one of the first episodes that has actually marked time and it marked time with a z minus 14 days right i wonder if the intent is to create that kind of cognitive dissonance of, I want to watch this episode and see what's happening, but also I, need to get to the end of this season and close this chapter. Hey, Eric of Art is in this episode. Yeah, I loaded him up on IMDb and it crashed my computer.

[5:23] I loved the talk between Pastor Dexter and Sheridan. I mean, it was so well done and I loved that. I think it's a thing that a lot of TV at the time would shy away from, you know, taking its hero and showing their flaws. And I like the way they did it. She had to look up one word to find out what the other word meant and then had to look up a new word to find out what that word meant. And that's why English doesn't make sense. And I said, amen, sister. She said in two standard hours. Where are the non-standard hours? I liked how Londo pulled the wool over everyone's eyes, including mine. It's all there from the beginning. It's a beautifully written subplot. He saved 2,000 narns. but there's no way you can call Londo Malari a hero. He is an evil, evil manipulative person. Leave the face in the head.

[6:17] The rest is for you. Yeah. Yeah. He opens up his jacket, sticks it in his pocket, and closes his jacket and taps his chest a little bit. And he's like, make sure that that's found on the body.

[6:28] Go. And then we get that incredible scene, right, where they got the gospel singing going, and just everything that that singer is saying is happening in real time with that beatdown. Oh, it was dark. It was so dark. But Jakar never laid his hands on Rifa. Jakar is saving his hands for Londo. They do their work and they're looking at stuff and they find the pattern they have a target awesome is that next episode are we catching up with that because we didn't do anything with it today and now the conclusion i feel like you didn't care for it very much but i directly said i liked this episode you said that i liked this episode but i also said there's something that seems off with it there's something that seems wrong here's the i don't know what felt off about it right looking at it right now i don't know i'm based on our previously on video this might be the most i've been excited to dive into an episode for the second time really because i don't know what i was saying like i don't really fully remember what i was thinking what it was well then let's because i remember this episode really well i believe we also we thought that naroon bowed to delen so i mean also true also true i said something in this in this recap though it's like This is one where all the pieces were there from the beginning. I'm watching this episode tonight looking for what I meant there.

[7:45] I want to know. Yeah. I want to know. That'll be fun. What do you say we'd watch it right now then? I think we should absolutely do that. Let's do it. Hey, if you're joining us for the first time, I want to say hello and welcome. Thank you for being here with us. We are super excited that you're here. What's going to happen right now, we're going to bring up the episode. We're going to watch it right here with you. We'll make comments during it. We'll talk about messages or things that we were observing.

[8:08] If you're watching us on YouTube, you're going to get the reaction style video. It's going to be edited up and all that kind of stuff. If you want the full and the unedited version of this, then you can get that on our Patreon page. It's at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're interested in the full unedited version of these videos, nope, good night. That is not what I'm talking about. Different show. If you're listening to us on an audio podcasting platform or non podcasting platform, you're listening to us in audio in any way, shape or form, uh, you're going to hear all of that same video stuff that Jeff just talked about. Cause we'll talk about stuff in the middle of that. We don't want you to miss that. And then, of course, we'll have all of our other stuff on the back end to go through as well. So, Jeff, with that, let's cry out. Accessing file.

[8:56] Adira, Magda, you're with the Pac-Mura? Sorry, try not to drink the water. Nakari. Don't drink the water. We'll be rendezvousing with the Narn Resistance in Sector 40. He hardly ever leaves the war room anymore. He tries not to show it, but... You can see the fatigue in his eyes. He does. He's got the little scruff there. He's still on walkabout. No one's seen him in over a week. We hope he's all right and works this through soon. We're going to need him back in med lab. Though I don't share that belief, I'm glad to have Brother Theo and the rest of his monks on board. How he can be so annoying one moment and so comforting the next is beyond me. For every telepath you send to one of the other races, I send along one of my Norans as bodyguard. Their safety's already been guaranteed. I'm sure that will be a great comfort to their grief stricken families when a shadow agent carves them up into spare body parts. With my people around, this will not happen. If the symmetry were any more perfect, I should think one of us would break into this.

[9:51] I have decided that Jakar must be dealt with. Wando, has it occurred to you that half the other races are at war? We have to figure out what to do about them, about us. And you're worried about Jakar? So I have found a way to get him away from here. Not worried about getting poisoned by Veer anymore. Once there, he can be arrested, detained, and executed. And you, Veer, are going to help me.

[10:21] No, I'm not, Mondo. I do feel like the head-turning thing should be something that changes throughout the season. Okay. I don't feel like that should be a thing. Well, that's assuming that it does mean something. Didn't you say JMS said that it meant secrets are being hidden or not? I forget who said it. They might even be here today. It was one of our Council Chambers crew that had that theory. Yeah. I thought you pulled that from a JMS. We pulled that from our community. Fair enough. Fair enough. And we went through it and we examined it and we're like, yeah, it looks like we made sense of it somehow at the time. Ben says it was a fan theory. Okay. I tell you, in 50 years of living and 40 years of serving the Lord, I have never met a sorriest soul than Brother Theo here. Well, I wouldn't say that. Thank you. But I'd prefer to leave judgments as to the state of my soul to someone better qualified and perhaps a bit less loud. But it says in the Bible to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. I've heard you say. This is at one time. I can take my word for it. That is not what the good Lord had in mind when he said a joyful noise. Hello? Neither is that.

[11:30] Happy to meet you, Commander. Nice to meet you. When you can get a group of real ecumenical, you know, different people and they can razz each other a little bit, that's got to be so nerdily fun. Well, thank you. Now, if you all just follow me, we've set up temporary quarters for each of you. Temporary? Nice word, isn't it? So pay attention to William Forward, the actor that plays Lord Rifa. Okay. In his face throughout this thing. I don't know if we're going to see it or not, but when he got the, uh, the script, he was really upset and, uh, he went to JMS and because he's like, dude, what did I, what did I do to upset you? Like what, what happened? And he had to pull him aside and explain the situation. He indicated.

[12:13] Or JMS indicated, hey, you're great. I'm sure I'm going to use you again as an alien character or some prosthetic, something like that. If you hadn't done such a good job, none of this would have happened. You are a victim of your own success. No one would have cared about this character if you hadn't done what you've done with it. He was pretty upset coming in. Rightly so. And JMS is right. that really speaks to how he has handled this character. Yes. Like, yeah, you can have great writing, but you also have to portray it well. Here's a thought, Jeff. What if Liana Kemmer was a perfectly written character and just had a better actress? Could have come back and done, like she would have fit in so many spots. How often have we seen a character in a TV show, not just Babylon 5, but any TV show, who was only intended for a one or two off, but then the audience responded to that character to that actor and that person turns into a full time cast member yeah it's a thing like it's fun when those things happen stargate stargate's had that a couple of times yeah yeah right a couple of times more still to come so it's a thing all right i love that and if if i knew that i was effectively getting fired i would be bad too i'd have questions yeah yeah i'm tired i haven't had a good night's sleep since kosh died having the kind of nightmares make your hair stand on end. Well, that would explain the Centauri. We need food and rest. Yeah.

[13:41] The humans who you've been waiting for have arrived and would like to have dinner. No, no, no. I don't have time. If they want to come here, then that's the... So I told them, yes. Delenn. Do not lie, except to save another. Except when we do. They gave us the caveat. I will be publicly dishonored. We know that's still bullshit. Right. Pardon my language. Dinner isn't too standard hours. So this was one of Mira Furlan's favorite scripts. She said to JMS that she's had to be so serious all season. It's nice to finally have some fun with this character. Interesting. And you can see it. That was, she was having a blast. I like that. I like that a lot.

[14:29] She didn't call him a crotch. Remember Jakar's aide, Nathan? Remember, I still have the claw marks. They were very close when she was here. He lost track of her when we bombed Narn. He assumed she was dead. I love we get a Natoth mention. Yeah. And that it pays off later on. That she has been taken prisoner and is being kept in a cell beneath the building that once housed their ruling body, the Kari. Jakar is the last of the Kari's still free and the only one who knows the layout of these underground cells. Knowing Jakar, once he hears this, he'll return to Narn at once. This is Londo laying a trap for Rifa right now. Okay. Londo, as soon as we tell Jakar this, he's going to return. Yeah, he's got to get Jakar on Narn. Right.

[15:17] Londo's already aware. This has nothing to do with getting Jakar. We think this is about getting Jakar. This has nothing to do with getting Jakar. This is about getting Rifa, whom he believed killed Adira. That's what this is about. Let's watch this. I love the screenshot here with Veer. Veer, yeah. You know every ship going to Narnia searched? Veer. Nia says he's already spoken to Jakar at this point. I feel like there's a scene where he asks Veer to hook them up or something. Well, I think there's... There's also, isn't there a piece, this might be the episode where Londo actually has to play Veer because he needs Lord Reefa's people to believe that this is true. And Veer gets pissed off because Londo didn't tell him the truth and played him. Yes. Is this that episode? I don't know if that's this one, but I do remember Veer being like, his life was in danger. And you played me is basically what's going on because Veer had to believe it's true. So Londo will. Okay. So we'll go with that. Londo has already spoken to Jakar, which is very interesting to me.

[16:22] Jakar, you think Jakar wants to get Rifa just as much as he wants to do Londo? He wants to get any Centauri. Right. But I mean, Rifa is one of the high ranking Centauri who's torturing his people. And knowing what he knows now from dust to dust, he knows Rifa has been involved. Yeah. So yeah, Jakar could enemy of my enemy on this thing. Yeah. Our council chambers chat is telling us that this is that episode, Brent. So not only is he laying the trap here for Reefa, he's setting the stage for Veer. The fear is that Reefa has a telepath. He will believe that you have no reason to lie to me. Is Steven starting to lose some weight here? I think so. He's looking a little more. I won't do it. Yes, you will. You will do it because I ask you. Because it will heal.

[17:07] Yeah, look, Lando, because if you don't, my plan's going to shit. I will humiliate you, your family, and your house. I will drive them from honor and bankrupt them. I will have them stripped naked and whipped through the streets of the capital at midday. And in the end, I will destroy them. Lando is completely bluffing here. He's just, he's just, he's manipulating Veer. Okay, moral question. Does it make him any different than the Vorlon in the shadows? Oh, then you're going to go there. Yes, because he's doing it to one person, not all people.

[17:45] What makes it wrong for the Vorlons and Shadows to do it? That they're doing it. Okay, what makes it wrong for Londo to do it? That he's doing it. It's either the same or it's not that evil of a thing to do. It's either evil all the way around or it's not. We've had this conversation. Their manipulation is not always evil. In fact, I will go so far as to say that Londo manipulating Veer is not evil. How he manipulates him is. I just want to be clear. I don't think it's good to manipulate folks. You should really just kind of tell them. But also in this case, there is a legit reason why Veer needs to personally believe this. And sometimes ends do justify means. And this is one of those situations where I think ends probably justifies means. Maybe. In this case. Maybe. Because Londo's blood, he's not really going to do any of that to Veer. He's just got to make sure Veer's going to go through with this. Yeah, but he knows that Veer would believe that he would do that to him. Yeah. They once asked us to recognize them, you know? They seem to think that if our government would recognize that Blondheim, they would have a needy time establishing their independence. Which is not great. That's not a good reason for them to be independent about, is there, Lord Riefer?

[19:04] Or he's more in touch than he's ever been. Because it turns out, interaction with aliens, interaction with people who aren't like you, actually opens your mind, broadens your experiences. Come, your word can tilt the balance. We'll end this by me showing you he's wrong and I'm right. I will give it when I decide which side is more deserving. Who is this actor? I'm not sure. He looks familiar. I can't place him on anything. Well, this is awkward. I'm about to kill you. Be strong. I need to see Jakar. I said I need... Let's find out if this guy... That guy didn't get paid for anything today. Hello, Jakar. Just stand there. You did as I asked? Excellent. Minister, you're right. This division must end, but by deeds, not words. What if I could prove to Emperor Cartagia the value of House Molare over that of House Riefer? What if I could rid the royal court of a problem that has been bothering it for quite some time? That happens to be Riefer. This is where we said it's in front of us the whole time. Done. When I am finished, this rivalry will be over once and for all.

[20:29] We can think that he's talking about something else when he's 100% just talking about. Is that why you're doing this? To win favor at the royal court? How can you do this to me? To have Jakar in prison or killed just to elevate your position?

[20:43] Hey, Veer, we're in the hallway. Maybe shut up. Okay, let's talk about that. This is something you don't understand, but you will. I feel like when somebody who is like a mentor to you says that to you, look, you don't understand, but you will. It is the providence of youth to scoff at that and be like, oh, man, that's just old thinking and there's no way, no way that can be whatever. When actually there is something. It's very true. Yeah. I use that exact line with people that work with me and that I mentor because sometimes you just have to do the thing. You don't need to understand why you're doing this thing right now. I mean, most all of the time you do, but there are times I don't need you to understand. I need you to do something. And you will understand, like, I'm not telling, I'm not cutting you off. And there's other times where it's like, you just haven't been around long enough to get this yet. I can tell you as a teacher, when I'm with my students, there are things that I need to teach them to do, right? And I have discovered that if I will simply tell them, hey, listen, guys, I'm going to tell you to do something a certain way. It's not going to make sense to you right now, but I need you to trust me. There's a reason for it. And later on, you're going to understand it. And if you don't do it the way I'm telling you now, you're going to have trouble later on. I have a student right now who is saying that to a younger student of mine all the time who's like, no, no, listen to him.

[22:03] He's right. I've like, I'm only three years ahead of you, but listen, he's right. Like trust him on this one. But as a teacher, like you're not in a spot where I can communicate to you why it's important that you do it like this, but it matters because I see further down the road than you do. I know what's coming down the road. You don't, you really ought to love, you need to listen and trust me. Now, in order for that to happen though, Jeff, and this might be the mistake you're making. Maybe it's not. I don't know. You tell me. You have to have a relationship with that person. Yeah. There has to be some modicum of trust. In a boss employee situation, there's some inherent, like you're the boss, I'm the employee. I'm going to just kind of do what you say. There's that inherent trust, I suppose. But at some point, even as a boss, you have to earn that trust. You know? We also got our hands on most of the underground transmissions. So the Resistance is still alive back home? Oh, President Clark wants folks to think otherwise, but the Resistance is very much alive. Salder.

[23:00] Thanks. This will help. What do they say about us? You know, that would be a fun story. What's going on there? The story of the resistance. Pirates and traitors working with aliens to subvert Earth. That actually, think about that though, Jeff. It's an Earth-based story. It's Earth-based politics. But you have a resistance movement that is underground, but is set in the future so we have the influence of aliens on Earth. And we're working with aliens to accomplish the resistance movement and keep things going in the face of an anti-alien, Earth-first type situation. Yeah. That's a story that could work. It could be a good show. I think that could work. That'd be an interesting story. And you know what? Whatever's going on on Babylon 5, that's really not affecting me right now. What if they would have been right about us? I didn't think so. But if I was wrong, I was wrong. I'd rather do something and make a mistake than be right. This is all going on over here. That's the problem today back home. Folks have been conned into thinking they can't change the world, have to accept what is, I tell you so. The world is changing every day. The only question is who's doing it. This is the whole reason the ruse was set up. I didn't do anything! Correct, Tavir. But you're about to do something. You are going to tell me what Londo is planning. Or you will not leave this room alive.

[24:22] Okay, so tracking the subversion. What we're led to believe is the thing that the rivalry that exists between Rifa and Londo is real. We're going to prove to the emperor our worth by delivering Jakar, right? So Reef is like, uh-uh. Uh-huh, right. And that's what we have Veer believing right now. But what he really means is I'm going to prove my worth and end this rivalry. And in order to prove my worth, I'm going to end the rivalry by ending them. Yeah. Which is pretty baller. It's pretty hardcore. Yeah. That's pretty hardcore. I'm not, let me be clear. In everything I'm saying, I do not condone murder, and this is for personal revenge, both for him and Jakar, which is not a good enough reason to murder somebody, in my opinion. Very few things ever are. But this is fiction, and you kind of want to see who it is.

[25:13] I'm shrugging my shoulders at the fact this is fiction and going with it that way. He's not been very kind to you, has he here? He's treated you badly. This is a good tactic by Rifa. I can change that for you. I can have you appointed to the royal court. Except Veer has seen Rifa in action. A title, little power. In time, Veer, I think you would come to see things my way. Here's the problem with Rifa right now, though. He doesn't know Veer. Everything he's offering to Veer... He wants nothing to do with. ...is not Veer's value system. Now, Veer's still Centauri. You imagine that that does still tempt just about anybody, particularly Centauri. They're probably fairly human when it comes to that. But again, that's not typically what Veer values. Rifa's bar... I mean, it's a smart move on Londo's part. I'm going to get the guy who kind of is immune to whatever he's going to do to him. Yeah. I've just got to make him telepath proof, which means he has to, this is inception. He has to actually believe it. Something I do not have. Take it from his mind. No. No.

[26:16] Who is this short-crested booboo right here? This guy? I want you to go to Jakar. No, I know. I'm just short little crested whatever. Knowing Jakar, once he hears this, return to non-actuals. At the point the telepath shows up, don't you just say it? You're like, look, I'll tell you. I'll tell you.

[26:35] Is this supposed to be hurting, Veer? If it's a deep scan, it would. And he's probably adding a little to it. I know that was uncomfortable, but it was necessary. You will be attended to. now wait what does this mean attended to right it could mean all kinds of things we're either talking torture or we're going to take care of you and just keep you in comfort we're just going to keep you here when god comes knocking at your door you won't need me or anyone else to tell you what that sound is but you got to remember after god created man he created eve because he knew we all need someone to talk to someone to help shoulder the burden he's not talking about the Lynn here, but he's talking about the Lynn. Right. Yeah. He's just saying, you need someone else. You need someone else to talk to. Here's a biblical example of when, of the way that God made the order to do that. Oh, turns out you actually have Eve. And she was just actually telling you this same thing earlier in a different way. Yeah. She loves you, you know. I saw her face at dinner every time she looked at you. I don't want to talk about this anymore. He's talking about the Lynn then, sorry. Of course. Turns out, I take back everything I just said. Lynn's been through a lot lately. We all have. She's got enough problems on her hands without giving her mind... Him getting defensive just proves how right he is. When I help you clean up your place, I am helping you. Of course, the way I lived back then, sometimes the mess was too much for both of us, but...

[27:56] Sure was nice to have the company. God, so, so well done. And look, it's working too. Here's the thing I'm going to hit you with. Okay, I'm not going to hit you with a thing. Oh, here's the thing. I don't know if we talked about this the first time around, but I really love this whole thing. Yeah. One of the things I've learned in my many years of marriage is if you make the other person first, you focus on taking care of the other person in a healthy marriage, I should say. Yeah, not a codependent sort of a thing. Right, right. In a healthy marriage, in a healthy relationship. When you make the other person your priority and you focus on their needs and taking care of them they are focused on you and taking care of your needs and so your needs are filled and met you don't have to worry about your own needs and i love what he said when i sweep my floor all i've done is sweep my floor but when i sweep your floor i've swept the floor and i've helped you yep i can just take care of me and you can just take care of you and at the end of the day then i've only taken care of me why.

[28:50] I could let you take care of me so I don't have to worry about me. And then I can take care of you. And now I've taken care of someone, which is cool. And I've done it for you because I love you. Right. And that's even better. And that's just one of the, it's one of the things I love. And, and my wife and I, we don't always get it right, but it is, it's a thing we've talked about often in our marriage over the years. And that's how we try to model our marriage is, is I look after her needs and she looks after me and mine. And again, we don't always do right with it, but it is the basis of at least what we strive for. Yeah. And I think it extends to so many other things. There's this weird psychological thing. I'm going to share one of my, this is one of my leadership secrets that, uh, like one of my secret weapons that I like to share with people. But psychologically, so many people believe that like in a work context, I have to, people have to know that I did a thing so that they know I'm a value and they don't fire me. Like that's what it really boils down to. And what that leads to are literally just a bunch of people in a space working at only not getting fired and not actually anything else. But psychologically, there's this weird thing that happens where when I put all of my care and attention on someone else, which people are afraid to do because then they're going to get all the credit.

[30:06] But no, I get just as much, if not more. So as an example, you and I work on a project of some kind and we end up in a meeting and someone's like, we want to give you a million dollars for this incredible thing that you came up with. If my response is like, yeah, I did a great job with that. I deserve a million bucks. They're like, yeah, you did. You're kind of a jerk too. But if I go and I say, you know what? We couldn't have done this without Brent.

[30:30] Everything he brought was top notch and incredible. He challenged my assumptions in ways that brought us to decisions we wouldn't have come to otherwise. Wise, I give you all of the credit right there, whether you're there or not with that per the fear is that they're just going to think you're the only valuable part of the equation, but psychologically. They get, they see it. They understand. Oh, this guy's a good guy right here. And this Brent guy is talking about also.

[30:59] I think that the, the, the message I wrote down here is just simply there's value in service. And that value is that when you serve others, you serve all. And I'll point this back to Jeremiah last week, talking about the universe thing. If we're all manifestations of the universe, same universe, then when you suffer, I suffer. When you succeed, I succeed. When you thrive, I thrive. Because we're all one. And I think if we can come in with that mentality, I'm going to give of myself to you selflessly. Yeah. I will still receive. And maybe even more than I would have if I just went to take. And here's the thing. I like to think that we are in a healthy podcast partnership, friendship that we have.

[31:43] If that person then comes to me and be like, hey, I heard you were the you're the bee's knees about making this thing run my response should and frankly would be yeah but i couldn't do without jeff yeah yeah you know what i mean.

[31:56] Which just makes us as a team that much more valuable because they're like, look, they both get it. Even if that's not a conscious thought, it still hits everything. Yeah. And now you and I get to go together wherever they're going to take us. Exactly. Exactly. There we go. I dig it. There's a lot of chatter in the council chambers chat that I really appreciate around. We talked about it back in TKO. You were the one. I want a rabbi. This guy's great. I was just thinking about this. Yep. And there's people here. I want a pastor. I'm going to tell you this. This is just world according to Jeff right here. You may think otherwise. I'm not speaking for you. But this, frankly, has nothing to do with religion. I mean, it has to do with religion, and that's the training that they come up with and stuff. But this is really just being good humans. You can get this from a professor, a boss, a good friend, somebody. It happens to be a wise person. A wise, trusted person. Now, in the religious space, there are assumptions of wisdom.

[32:50] There's a level, if you are within that religious circle, there's a level of trust that you start with. I think even if you're not a religious person, when someone's like, hey, I'm Reverend so-and-so from this church, there are assumptions, positive and negative, that are made. But I think it's just easier to put these words into a religious person's mouth. Oh, it makes sense. Of course the reverend's saying these things, but it could come from anybody. What I love, though, is Jameis is, despite being an atheist himself and having his negative real-life reactions with religious folks, he's not just writing the religious people to be the evil Cardinal Richelieu's. Exactly.

[33:28] You know what I mean? Like, he's allowing them that space. But nothing that he said here is religious. The only thing that's kind of religious that he said was, when God comes after you, you're not going to need me. Yeah. Which, hello, yes, that's the kind of attitude that most of us should have. Yeah. Right? Right. But I think back to Rabbi Koslach. Man, I want a rabbi. I look at Brother Theo. I want to kind of become a monk if I get to go serve with this guy. Why? Because I want that guy in my life.

[33:56] By the way, you don't have to be Jewish, I've learned, to have a rabbi. Right? Exactly. They'll talk to you. You don't have to be a member of a particular church to go to a pastor. In fact, if they tell you you need to be- I assume, same thing's true with the priest. Exactly. If they tell you you need to be a member, that's not a church you want to be a part of. No. No. And I'll bet you most monks, if you just go talk to them. They're all about it. And they'll probably give you some really wise stuff. Yeah. That's next on my list. I've never done that. And some beer. And by the way, I'm sure you probably could do the same thing with, I don't, are they called imams? Imams, yeah. In Islam. Imams. I forget what they're called in Hindi. Like, you're going to find the wise folks, and then you're going to find the people that are the evil Cardinal Richelieu. Yep, there are. There are a lot of them out there. And it's, yeah. In fiction, it's usually one or the other when it comes to the literature. Yep. You know? Z minus 30. Z is Zathras, or Zahadum. It should be Zathras, though. It's days to Zahadum, is what we're saying, right? All right, so this scene right here, JMS, says that the buildings, the overall setting of Narn was very intentionally inspired by Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Oh, okay, fair. Very much meant to inspire those thoughts and feelings. Once we have the Snarn, what shall we do with him? Bring him back to Centauri Prime in chains. As a gift for Emperor Cartagia, along with a silver plate, on which I will have the head of Londo Molari.

[35:25] If I'm dude, I'm like, how does Londo fit into this? I thought we were going for the Kari. What is it? There's no pattern to the shadow attacks. No pattern at all. But maybe no pattern is the pattern. Sometimes it's just nice to have the company. He's taking the advice. Put the three-dimensional grid back up again. Display the attacks in sequence, chronological order. Like, the second he takes dude's advice, it's like, oh, there's the breakthrough. I started here, then jumped across to this area. Maybe this is as much about terror as it is about territory. That's why they call it territory. That way you get maximum results when you finally hit them with something big. The bad guys, if I were them. The only way we're going to beat them is to think like them. Think like them? Yes. No. That's the problem. Yeah, it's offensive right there. We just figured this out. Reverend Dexter says you need some time away from this. Right now, I agree. She knows what he needs to get his mind right. Woo-hoo? Yeah. Listen. We are ready to proceed, Jukon. They understand the target. I love that phrase. Follow me. I know the way.

[36:31] Londo legit just punched the dude. Yes. Does it make it any better that Londo came for Veer himself? A little bit. And didn't let him sit there? Like, Londo had a plan. He wasn't just going to leave Veer there. Yeah. He didn't send Veer out like a sacrifice to be slaughtered. That's funny. Okay, so right now, this is all part of the plot. Yep. Jakar knows what's about to happen. Jakar's got this little hologram scanner thing. this is jacar is leading these folks into a known trap knowing that really they're turning on leading this guy into trap right do the people with jacar know what's about to happen i think they do no you think they do the people with jacar yeah jacar's folks yeah i don't know they're doing the thing does it matter do they know that londo's about to pop up on a thing and they're going to go kill this guy they know they're supposed to kill this guy as you just said jacar just said do they understand the target oh not in the toss right reefer yep because it could be the the targets in the toss we got to go get her out yeah it's yeah they're all in on this this is they are the trap and they know they are the trap because i was thinking that that he's still leading them to go get in the toss yeah again see i'm still getting flaked out man you have just taken your final dude this has such great rewatch value yeah.

[37:49] This episode is everything that my memory told me this episode was. So far, I've agreed.

[37:54] Who is the enemy? All right, this is the thing I really want to pay attention to. We are all alien to one another. So before, as you pay attention, JMS, describing this whole scene, says it's funny yet chilling. These are the scenes I love the most. The ones where you're utterly conflicted. It's grotesque or frightening on the one hand, and comic or absurd on the other. It leaves you uncertain which way to jump emotionally, and I love that feeling. Caught betwixt in between. Just to further add a bit of creepiness to it, in the sound mix, I had the editors verb up the music toward the fade out, so it had a slightly distorted edge to it. The details are everything in this scene. I'm going to be specifically listening for that. Also, I just want to say this, Jeff. I get the feeling we could probably pause this video after every sentence that this pastor is about to say and pick apart what he's about to say. That is not the scope of our video right now let's just let this go and see what happens let's save that for a a bad nerds podcast episode so we need we i mean we talk about a little bit here but i don't we can really deep dive into this because i feel like probably everything here he's about to say would just be it'd be an episode all into itself the enemy is the one who tells you that you must hate that which is different because in the end that hate will turn on you and that same hate.

[39:20] I've got freaking chills right now. I don't even care about this. Go back to him. Yeah, he's talking to us right now. Holy smokes.

[39:34] Oh, that's right. All the guards are Wando's guards. You've taken from me that which I love, Drifa. You also took the life of Prime Minister Malachi, a good and dear friend. Weakened our defenses by your constant warfare. None of which matters to Jakar or his associates. Did you see that? Right through him. Did you see that? You also took the life of Prime Minister Malachi. I have given Jakar documents which prove that you are the one who orchestrated the bombing. Fear is the enemy. Be careful of those who tell you to hate that which is different from you, because that will be the thing that undoes you. Rifa's the guy who's been saying, hate the Narn. Londo too, but Rifa has been. But Rifa's really been the guy driving it, right? Because Londo's effectively been out of power for a lot of this. Like, it's been Rifa back home. I'm not saying Londo hasn't been saying it. Rifa's been the guy who's been leading it among the people, right? And here it's about to destroy him.

[40:40] I love that Londo's not exactly looking at Rifa here he's lying on the off chance that Jakar might not believe me. I have arranged for 2,000 nuns now in custody to be three, half in advance that doesn't necessarily mean that Rifa, they would kill Rifa to free 2,000 Narns regardless of how many Narns Rifa killed I would discredit your house and all opposition in the royal court. He's trying to be big, but he's like, I don't know how I'm going to get out of this. There is no hiding place. I like that they just walk away. Come back! Okay, there's only four other norms there. Make sure this is found on his body. Leave his face and hair. It will be needed later for identification. The rest is yours.

[41:28] No hiding place down here. This is brilliant. There's no hiding place down here. There's not as much intercutting back and forth here as it was in TKO. Because there was the message, and then we watched what happened, and now the music is basically soundtracking this part. You know the sinner's gonna be running? Yeah, you know they forgot about Jesus. It's only four in orange. I know. Why did it feel like 20 last time?

[41:57] I really felt like it was like 20 darn last time. No hiding place on the mountain. No hiding place in the waters.

[42:04] No hiding place down here. No hiding place yet. Okay, here's what I want to know. I want to know this from all of our listeners out there. I want to know this from all of our listeners out there, okay? Particularly if you are not a church-going kind of person, all right? And Jeff, I'm even going to include you. I know you're a church-going kind of person, but you're not this kind of a church-going kind of person. Here's what i want you to i want you to watch this scene all right and i'm talking to probably just about everybody i'm talking my voice i want you to email us jeff our email address is the bad nerds at gmail.com okay i want you to email us or you can comment down below but i'd rather email us let us know who you are in the crowd oh wow okay i want to know like have fun with this but which which awkward person are you in like you're you're you find yourself in this spot that's not really a spot you're used to who are you in the crowd okay that's that's what i want to know i'll remind you so you guys can see this bit a little bit but i want to know and council chambers go ahead and go ahead and thank you andy and you can keep it to our cast all right we don't need the other dude over there that we don't know and no fair saying you're rifa or the narn we're talking about in the crowd i'm just really impressed with the compression they've got on her vocals like for live that's good i'm hearing the reverb on her when it comes.

[43:27] I'm Sheridan. I know I'm Sheridan. Now there's 29. Yeah. Where did they all come from? There was only four. Who are you, Drew? I'm Theo. 100%. That's why we feel like there was 29. On them. Because there were. Yeah. And Jakar just watches. Andy says he's Lanier. Debra says she's Lanier. Most people saying Lanier are like, uh... That's what I thought for most people.

[44:03] I'm going to be respectful and I have no idea what's going on. Alright, Vera has finally put it together. He knows what's going on now.

[44:10] And he's back there pissed, just waiting to get Lando alone. Purging acts of terror against our people. He hoped to undermine the royal court, create enough public outrage that he could move his own people into positions of power and where they go while londo is lying through his teeth right here he's also not wrong about right what was it a little bit of the truth in every lie kill you this is a lot of the truth i missed amalekai apparently he felt that sooner or later it would destroy him or us a big thank you to andrew brent that's not a red crystal that's blood on the well thank you for bringing this to my attention malari i live only to serve. Even Veer's like, really? Steven First just has to be back there. All right, Veer. What is it? You have that look again. So I let you believe what I wanted him to believe. It was the only way to lure him into the trap I had set for him. Rondo, they could have killed me. Nonsense. You're not important enough to kill. But I'm important enough for you to lie to you. Pleased to think I need you, Rondo. But I never... What? I think you just should not be, I mean, you should be mad. Are you kidding me? But not surprise. I wish you would tell me what it is. What?

[45:21] It's a surprise. Let's show you those resources you've got. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This comes here. Yeah. Okay. White star was never intended to be one of a kind. It was only the first. They've kept this a secret from him this whole time. Yeah. I said we needed time to prepare. This is why. One last thing to do before we actually go to war. I don't know what to say.

[45:47] Do it, do it, do it, do it, do it.

[45:51] Yes, there it is. For real, the first time, for the second time.

[45:57] Dude, they even had a first time kiss for the second time. Right? Here's the thing. Here's the thing. She wanted to see all of the resources he had. It wasn't the White Stars. No, and I don't mean that. I don't mean this. This is a family-friendly show. I don't mean it that way at all. I mean, he knew that he and Delenn were, but you have John Sheridan. You have me. And really the white stars are nice, but does he need any other resource? Yeah. I mean, he needs the white stars. That's actually his physical war, but I, I feel like the real resource was to Len. She is his resource. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and in for practical reasons within the war, but also for personal, emotional, mental health reasons as well. Yeah. Which we got so clearly in this big things. You want to, you said a thing at the end that I just want to touch. On really quick and that was, uh, what so much rewatch ability in this episode. Yeah, so much. It's, uh, it's just super good. And is there anything else you want to kind of, we didn't, I could do this for a third time because of that. No, I, I really do think we need to just in whatever note we're, we're keeping ideas and stuff in the future though, Jeff, a breakdown of what the pastor said there. Now, granted it, what it really is, is it's his one message, which is really just about a paragraph long juxtaposed against what's happening to refoke. Yeah. Right. And then the rest of it's just the song being the soundtrack to Rifa getting his lunch eaten or his gizzards eaten. Yeah. Like whatever's happening.

[47:25] But just that whole clip needs to be taken, edit out anything that's not him, and put that out because that hits today. Yeah. It hits today, and it also hit yesterday, and it will probably also hit tomorrow. It's a timeless message. It's so sad that it has to hit. You know, like we should be better than that. Well, these are the things that make us better, though. We have to hear these things. We have to see these things, and we need it in repetition. And you have to hear them repeatedly. And I think because we're human, we need to hear it repeatedly over generations. Yeah. And that sucks, but we can change. We have the capacity for it. I do want to read one quote that I pulled from the pastor, actually, about the middle part of the episode. When you're all worried, your worry tank is all filled up, people stop coming to you because they don't want to add to it. You got to empty out your worry tank. Yeah. Yeah. People will start walking on eggshells around you. It'll happen. I talk a lot about leadership. We know that. But one of the things I talk about in that is that leadership is lonely. There are times you are the only person making the decision. I mean, you can have people providing input or whatever, but you have to make the call. And that's a very lonely thing to have to do.

[48:38] And it is in sharing. You can't, you almost can never share everything, but to sharing what you can with who you can makes all the difference in the world. And I loved how the reverend approached it in this too, where it's, you're not putting off any responsibility. You're sharing the load. That's it. And it's totally okay to do that. Absolutely. Well, Jeff. Yeah. I have a question. I know you do. We have a ranking. We do. You rank one week, I rank the next. You rank the next week, I rank the next. In our power, do we have the ability to alter the person's previous ranking from the week before? We've never done that before. I don't know. Well, the question remains even right now in this moment, Jeff, where does this episode go in our 100% completely accurate, objectively correct, Joe, ranking of Babylon 5? particularly as a second watch. Jeff, our top five currently sit at Dust to Dust in the number five slot, Interludes and Examinations, and number four, Ship of Tears in number three, War Without End parts one and two in the number two slot, and the trilogy, Messages from Earth Point of No Return and Severed Dreams up in the one in Joe. Jeff, we've been getting some comments and emails. People don't like the fact we combined it, but it's there because it's objectively correct. It is. I call it Mepers. Jeff, I'm curious. Do I know? I call it Mepers. Mepers. Messages from Earth Point of No Return. Wow. Okay. There you go. Mepers. Dude.

[50:02] Where is this one going to find itself in? By the way, you know what that secretly allows us to do? To have one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight episodes in our top five. Because this season deserves it. We kind of need that. Do you guys like it now? Okay. Go ahead, Jeff. Where does this episode go? Well, it is, you picked the right zone for this one for sure. Of course. And I am not going to mince anything on this, Brett. This episode was incredible the first time we watched it. I'm going to say it's even more incredible the second time that we watched it. Why did we not? Why did we come across that we didn't like it? My memory says we loved it. So I think what we come across that we didn't like it. And I'm not saying we didn't like it. I'm just saying that we liked it. I like it more. And we really tried to figure out the first time what it was that didn't feel right. And I think what it was is we were caught in the Londo ruse the whole time. Oh, yeah. And so we had no solid footing. This time we did. So everything just hit. Is there a thing that, like, when you watch a future episode that explains something or informs an opinion of a past episode, your memory of that episode updates? Yeah. The file updates? It turns out. Yeah, it does. It turns out our memory's not so, you know, accurate. No, but it turns out, but it's because you're updating and replacing the old file with the new file as you go through the series. Absolutely. I like it. So where's this going, Jeff? That's going to go as number three. Yeah. Number three. Yeah. Yeah. Man. And we got two episodes left on the season. I know.

[51:27] Well, Jeff, with that, that's going to do it for, and the rock cried out, no hiding place. You know what? I don't want to hide from this one. No. I like it all the way through. I do feel like there's a whole lot more to be said about what Londo did. Is he right or wrong? Yes. I'll give you my final judgment, though. My final judgment. Okay. Wrong. Yes. Because he did it for personal revenge. It was murder. Yep. It was cold-blooded murder. And he effectively betrayed a friend. Yeah, to get it. To do it. I will also say, I think Vera's blowing away.

[51:57] He's taking offense where he really ought not take offense. His offense was, I thought I knew. No, dude, this is so on brand. This is exactly what you know as Londo. You're just mad that he got you, dude. But the thing is, Londo had him the whole time. Vera was safe the whole time. Vera just needed to trust Londo. But Londo has not exactly been the most trustworthy of people. He sure has not. Jeff, next week, next week, new episode on deck. It's an episode called Shadow Dancing. I don't know if you remember this episode or not. What do you remember about it? What do you remember thinking about this episode? The thing I remember about this one, I know there is so much more to it. The thing I just remember is Franklin. Franklin actually walking into himself and working his stuff out. And I really liked how it happened. And I remember in the moment being like, I like this. This is good. And then what comes later for Franklin, we see him readjust to his new place. But what's weird for me is like, I know there's all this other stuff that happened. I couldn't tell you one of them. What do you remember about it? Nothing. Right. I don't remember this episode.

[52:57] Tell me the big thing that happens in this episode. Like Kosh died in the last one. This is the one where Rifa dies. What's the big thing that happens in this episode? Franklin. I know what Zaha Doom is. Do what now? Franklin finds himself. Oh, this is this is Walkabout part two. Yes. That's right. Okay. I remember thinking that this was Walkabout only done better. Okay. That's what I remember thinking. I couldn't tell you why. Well, that's all. Next week, find out what else happens in this episode. It'll be our second time, but maybe a little bit of the first time as well for Brent and myself. So make sure you're subscribed so you get notification when that thing comes out. If you want to get access to all the other cool stuff that we do, we've got a Patreon page where you can get full unedited versions of Babylon 5, of Stargate, of the next projects we have coming up, of the little things that Brent and I do on the side. There's a ton of content on there, and I'm sure that you would really enjoy it. And if you really want to help out The thing you can do that costs you nothing And means the world Means the galaxy to Brent and myself Is to share this show Share it with somebody who loves Babylon 5 Or who should love it And maybe watching two nerds watch it A couple years too late Will help them fall in love with it So with that, my name is Jeff Akin This is Brent Allen Hey, Jeff, What's up? Brent, what is going on?

[54:16] I don't like the look of it You know what I'm about to do, don't you? Please. Oh my God. We've had so much of this. Don't do it.

[54:33] Oh, no hiding place down here. I want to tell you that there's no hiding place down here. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something. I freaking hate you. We upset some people. I had that written before we even went on. Before we even came together to be like, hey, are you ready to go? Oh, my gosh. I hate you so. I did not see that until that very last bit. And I was like, oh, my God. I'm going to do this, aren't I? You did it.