Babylon 5 Season 3 Wrap Up

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time. Not a Star Trek podcast.

My name is Jeff Akin and I am watching Babylon 5 season 3 for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I will have watched Babylon five season three for the first time. And Jeff, it is now time. To take a break from the show, just a little bit to collect our thoughts here about season three. Before moving on into season four, Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching Babylon five four, the very first time.

We are three fists of the way through the show. We are searching for what we call Star Trek, like messages in the series and trying to decide how much we really like it. And this week, like I said, we're really talking about the season as a whole.

Jeff: Normally in our show, this is where I introduce the rule of three, where we each get up to three references to Star Trek and no more and all that stuff, but this is our season three wrap up. So. We're not gonna play that game. Right. It's a special episode. We're looking back on the entire of season three and we're not gonna have any restrictions whatsoever.

Brent: Yeah, that's right. And so absolutely no games in this episode at all. This one's just gonna be boring. Everyone sit around on the couch and look at each other while you nurse your drink.

Jeff: Respectfully and politely

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: do it.

Brent: No, actually, Jeff, you know what that means? We're gonna be doing, we're gonna be doing all of the Star Trek references, like we'll do every single one back to back, to back, to back to

Jeff: didn't upset the community at all when we started talking about Picard

at

all, so that's fine. Let's just, let's just do that

here

Brent: Or discovery or . We'll be like, wait, why are you talking about Star Trek now? Like, well, let's. We, we have, cuz we, we say it at the beginning of every episode. We are two veterans, star Trek pun. Anyway, um, anyway, we, we, I might be kidding, I think we're kidding. We're not gonna be doing all the Star Trek references, but you know what we are gonna be doing? We are having a very exciting giveaway.

Jeff: boo, boo.

Boo.

Brent: been talking about this for several weeks now, and here in a little bit, we are going to be giving away two of these amazingly awesome.

If you're watching on YouTube, you can see it. If you're listening to the audio podcast feed later, go to YouTube and check it out. Or just take my word for it. Awesome. 3D printed star furries, which are just amazing. Look how big this is in my hand, Jeff,

Jeff: I know. It's huge.

Brent: I mean? like

Jeff: It

Brent: it fits right there in my hand. It's pretty good. It's really detailed. Our friend wash did these for us and um, Uh, Jeff, are we gonna give one of these away?

Jeff: No,

Brent: No, it

Jeff: gonna give away two.

Brent: giving away two.

Jeff: first time ever in Babylon. Five for the first time history. Two giveaways

in the

Brent: can. So since we have two, can we go ahead and give away one right now?

Jeff: Do you want

Brent: Let's do one right now.

Jeff: you wanna do one right outta the

Brent: Right now I know we keep, I know In past episodes, past rabbits, we like delay it. Delay delay. Let's do one

Jeff: Yeah, let's do it. Okay. I got a spreadsheet over here. I have all the reviews in

Brent: How did people sign up to, to win this, Jeff?

Jeff: So people signed up to win. This was the easiest thing in the world. They went to Apple Podcast. They went to Pod Chaser. They went to Good Pods, they went to Audible. They left us a review. Uh, we got a bunch of five star ones.

We got a couple less than five star ones. All incredible, all valid entries into this. Not only did they do that recently, people have been doing that since May of 2022. Is that when we started this

Brent: It's been like a year and a half. Not quite a year and a half, but almost. Wow.

Jeff: yeah, it's wild. So we're going all the way back. Anyone who's ever submitted a review is eligible for this, so I wish I had a cool sound effect for this, for the audio version, for those of you on YouTube, I will have a cool sound effect for this , but

Brent: I can't wait to hear what it is.

Jeff: I can't wait to, I can't wait to hear it either.

All right. Let's see.

And our first winner of a Star Theory made by Wash is Sci-fi Grandma

Brent: sci-fi. Grandma, what's up granny?

Jeff: now sci-fi. Grandma's the one that said that you and I were both being changed by the show and that our listeners and viewers were also being changed as a result of our change.

Brent: I like it. What do you think, Jeff? They, I, I don't, I don't, I honestly don't remember this, this review.

Jeff: Oh, okay. Yeah, it was a while

Brent: it's been a while, but you guys know my memory with things like this. However, Jeff, I do wanna ask, how do you feel like you're being changed by Babylon? Five?

Jeff: You know, honestly, I don't, well, I, I can't say it's not Babylon five, but the way I'm being changed is with the relationships that I've built with people in the community, specifically the people in our discord. Um, I, I, I'm just, I am consistently like all the time blown away with the deeply personal stories that are shared that really help me see the world in a different

Brent: Yes, yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, Jeff, if anybody wants to join our disc, They can do that. But going to patreon.com/babylon. Five first. That's the number five in the letter first. Nope,

Jeff: The word

Brent: the word first that I'm gonna get it one day, Jeff. One of these days I'm gonna get it. But hey, you guys can go over there and do that.

And uh, Jeff and I have a lot of fun hanging out with the folks over there. They are absolutely amazing. Uh, and you are too. Uh, so come join us. Join the fun. So grandma, Hey listen, grandma, here's what we need you to do. We need you to email us your, uh, mailing address and we will get this shipped out to you.

Licky split.

Jeff: Absolutely. Well, hey

Brent,

Brent: Jeff.

Jeff: why don't you wrap up. Let's play. Let's play a little game. We gotta, this one's

Brent: I thought we weren't doing games this week.

Jeff: well, that's what you thought. You were

Brent: Oh, well. Let's do a game.

Jeff: the rule three.

Brent: Well, you know, typically at this part of the show, we've done the Rule of Three as a game and you read a couple of reviews and stuff like that. And then I usually say, uh, you know, this is the part of the show where we, um, play a game later on in the part of the show where we predict what the next episode's gonna be about.

And now's the time to pay the Piper and look back and see what we predicted last week that this week was gonna be about. Except this is not a show about an episode. This is a show about an entire season. So here's what we're gonna do, Jeff, last time during the season two wrap up, we predicted what we thought season three as a whole was gonna be about, and now is the time.

I'm sure we'll do that again for season four later on today. But now is the time to pay the Piper and look back on what we said in season two and season three was gonna be about, and just see how right we were. So, Jeff, do you remember? What you said season three of Babylon five was supposed to be. And how close were you given that we've now seen the whole thing?

Jeff: So I said that Babylon five was going to leave Earth secede from earth, boom. Then I said that in the episode point of no return, cause that was the, the name of the whole season, that that was where Sheridan was gonna leave Earth

Brent: so close.

Jeff: off by

Brent: Well, but, but, but that point of no return messages from Earth and Severed Dreams, which point of no return was in the middle. I, I did those out of order. Um, those are kind of like a, a, its own little mini arc series, so you're kind of right and still off by one, but I,

Jeff: you where I was. Exactly right

Brent: what's that?

Jeff: is I said he'd be very picard in how he did it and he would give people the opportunity who didn't feel good about it, to just walk away and one dude did.

Brent: Well, yes. Because they had to.

Jeff: Yep. There's a whole lot else that happened in this, uh, season. I didn't even, didn't even touch on.

But, uh, what about you? What did you think this one

Brent: Yeah. Uh, well, I said this is where the shadow war would erupt. Do we think the war the war had the war's on? Like it's officially on,

Jeff: they're in the open.

Yeah.

Brent: Uh, so that's good. And then I, I predicted what you said, um, although I think I said it first, you just put it into the, uh, episode name. Uh, but I said that Babylon five was gonna break away from Earth.

I don't remember what it was from season two, but I remember there was stuff particularly in the last several episodes that was like, Babylon five could operate independently. And there's been some maybe foreshadowing or something that kind of had my mind thinking like, what if Babylon five broke away from Earth and became its own thing, given the way things were going and.

Oh, and then I also said that they would become the hub for the resistance to the bad guys, and absolutely Babylon five is the hub for the resistance to the bad guys.

Jeff: they got a treaty in everything,

Brent: and I did great with predicting season three.

Jeff: the earth parts of it, at least, like, sure, sure. Didn't even get close to the mark on how this one ended, but we didn't get there for season two either.

Brent: but wouldn't it be boring? Like you shouldn't be able to predict those beats. Like the, these should be able to predict the, the overall, you know, the, the high points, but there's gotta be some beats that are hidden and secret so that they just blow your mind, you know?

Jeff: Yeah. And I don't know about you, but this season did kind of blow my mind.

Brent: Did it. Well, let's get into that, Jeff. Let's talk about our impressions from season three. Jeff, I'm gonna toss. To you first, what did you think overall of season three? I believe season two, you compared it to season one, and you said that season one had like really high highs and really low lows, and there was nothing really in the middle, whereas season two was just kind of all right there in the middle.

Jeff: that's kind of what I said. Although I think upon reflection it's about half That was. Not great and a good half of that half I'll never watch again probably. And then another half that was just like, holy crud,

Brent: This is incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what did you think of season three?

Jeff: well there's 22 episodes right in this thing. And I loved almost every single one of them.

This was such a st I mean, this was an incredible season. Uh, we talked in season two, especially near the end about not wanting like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to go watch the next one. We cut off episodes, like in our discussion, you know, so we finish recording the audio portion of this and then we hang out with people for a while afterwards and we cut that off more than once cuz we're just like, want to talk, want to hang out?

We have Babylon five to watch. Like, I can't wait to go do it. This was, so I, I, I loved, I loved season three. What about,

Brent: Well I, you know, I broke it down. You said 22 episodes. Season three for me had seven absolutely outstanding episodes.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: had four fantastic episodes. It had five really good episodes. It had another five Good to Okay episodes, and then. And, and by the way, those good to Okay episodes, if you placed them in season one or two would've been fantastic, right?

Uh, and then this episode had one stinker of an episode that should be erased from people's minds altogether. 21 out of 22 episodes that were at least a positive reaction. Now, Jeff, back in season two, somebody posited that you and I were hired by some outside company to crap on the show and tank the reboot. If that's the case after season three, you and I should be fired from that job,

Jeff: Yeah. Which by the way, check your email

Brent: okay? From hr. Can I get something from HR

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Um, but I mean, Jeff, this was a damn good season. It really was. There were so many surprises, but at the same time, nothing was out of left field. It all tracked within the story and the world that j m s has set up, which was absolutely fantastic. Seeing Sinclair come back was not a surprise.

It was a, oh, he is here.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: You know what I mean? Like it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh my gosh, where did he come from? I

Jeff: They seated it. So they seated it so well on the second season where he popped up and like, I think you said this and we were talking about him. That could have been his last appearance ever. Right? There he is. He did the little screen thing, introducing the Rangers. They could reference him. It would totally work, but also like this story makes sense for him to be a part of it again at some point.

It made perfect sense for him to come in and also it was in the second season that I was calling that Sinclair was in one way or another, Valin, cuz they were dropping these little

Brent: it all there. Absolutely. You knew that Atheros was not gonna be a one and done from a season one episode. He was going to be back and he needed to be back. Zach finally turning his back on mini packs, right? Was, was so good in, in seeing that happened. Babbel on five splitting off from Earth.

Jeff, you and I both called that back in season two, that it wasn't that big of a surprise. So, so all of those things were so good to see. Nothing was out of left field, but there were still lots of surprises throughout the show that were particularly good. Um, you know, there's, there's three episodes that stand out as surprises though, over the course of the season to me, and I'll give you those three real quick.

Um, one is passing through gase, which was. And in an episode should have been stupid. But it was so well done and somehow it set the thematic tone for the entire season,

Jeff: The whole

Brent: you know, and it was, it was just amazing. The second one to me is Gray 17 is missing, which I was expecting the worst of the worst based on what I had heard about that show.

Um, and honestly, for the most part, I liked it. Goofy part, notwithstanding, I really liked it. And then the third one, which was an absolute surprise to me, and you're gonna be shocked when I say this, Jeff, wasn't an episode called a Late Delivery from Avalon,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: I thought the concept of it was a really high concept.

They seeded the idea that people from history could have been taken by the volans and brought back into our world at any given point. And the idea that they, they would've gone and gotten the original King Arthur. And brought him in. Now, when he started talking about the Knight of the Round Table and that kind of stuff, that was a little off.

I'm like, wait a minute. That's not what the real Arthur would've done. But the way that that episode just turned and lost, uh, forgive the phrase, all of its magic was so heartbreaking, but it was such a surprise to me that it wasn't what it was supposed to be like. I was tracking with it up until it's like, no, actually this is a guy on a guilt trip.

Jeff: Yeah.

When it could have been and, and we could have, we talked about it, we're like Arthur could have been real and Arthur went to Avalon, but Avalon was actually the VLAN home world. And what a great

Brent: And they seated, I'm sorry, and they'd seated. The boons are angels and part of our, our history. So the idea that that actually is a carryover to redefine that, like it works.

Jeff: yeah, the Alon being the Lady of the Lake. Yes. Yes. No

Brent: And then, and then all of a sudden it's just kind of ripped away from you of like, oh no, it's just a dude on a, on a guilt trip.

Which again, they already did that episode back in pathing, passing through Guest Enemy, but they did it better there.

Jeff: Yeah. And it was an, even, that was an interesting take on it, but because they introduced it in this package of like, here's a great cool, like fantasy sci-fi babble on five concept. We, no, no it's not.

No it's not.

Brent: yeah. So, uh, you know, I, I do want to get into the, the stories that I loved though, but we're gonna do that here in a segment in just a moment. So I'm gonna save it. I wanna save it for that. But I'll just wrap this portion up just by saying, this was a great season of television. The season was a great season of television.

This is why people fall in love with Babbel on five. This is what those folks who back in season two were like, oh, this show gets so good. This show gets so good. And we're like,

Jeff: eh,

Brent: is why they're saying that.

Jeff: and I get it. I think what this season showed me was the, the great magic trick to, to borrow on what you were saying earlier, that j m s pulled in everything he sold. He sold the concept for a show that was an arc, but he had to do it in a way that the studios and everyone thought, oh, here's my syndicate monster of the week episode.

You know, sort of a sci-fi thing. And so he had to take all of season. and basically have episode, episode, episode season two, which was episode and a little bit of arc and a little bit into season three, where like that messages from Earth Point and no return and severed Dreams like that is one continuous episode that are also three unique, you know, and, and specific ideas that were in there.

Like he played a huge trick on the world and season three is where it starts to pay

Brent: right.

Jeff: So well done. So well done. But with that being so well done, we, I mean, Brent, let's, let's just be real right here. You know, you and I both value transparency. We're basically the authority on ranking all of the episodes within the seasons that they happened in.

I mean, we've already developed the two definitive lists, one for season one, one for season two. Those are objectively correct

Brent: a hundred percent

Jeff: Yeah, a hundred percent. You can argue with them. You're wrong. Like we're the authorities.

Brent: Yes.

Jeff: Let's do, we did the same for season three this whole time.

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: Now last, oh,

Brent: No, go ahead. Go ahead, . I'm gonna say the same thing you are. Go ahead,

Jeff: now last time we took about an hour and a half to go through everything and kinda rework where it was. Brett, I wanna make a proposal.

Brent: Please do.

Jeff: I wanna make this a little tighter for us.

Brent: Jeff, you and I are of one mind my friend. How should we do that, Jeff?

Jeff: So what I'm thinking is, between the two of us, we're gonna alternate. You can start, and each one of us can make three moves. Because we're in Barri, right? We do everything right. We play the rule of three, we all of these things. So like for example, you could say, I think that a late delivery from Avalon is the greatest episode of this season.

It's the new number one. That's move number one for

you. Now I can use my move to change that back. No, no, it's 22. and you can use it to move it back or pick another one or whatever.

Either way

Brent: of our moves fighting over that one episode,

Jeff: which, if we do, then we're way off base on what we thought of this season. . But yeah. So what is like, we just alternate, we can each make three changes.

Does that work?

Brent: I think that's, I think that's fine. Um, Jeff, I don't think this segment's gonna take an hour and a half at all.

Jeff: don't either.

Brent: Because I'm looking at the list. Right. Um, Jeff, do, do you have, can we pull up the list? Do you have it for our YouTube? So if you're on YouTube, if you're, if you're an audio person right now, God bless you.

You're not gonna be able to see this. But if you are on YouTube, this is gonna be popping up on your screen in any moment. Whenever Jeff clicks the little button.

Jeff: Well, I have to hit the share button. I'm like, how come it's not coming up? There it

Brent: There you go. All right. Um, so what we should do, Jeff, is for the audio listeners, we should just do a quick rundown of the 22 episodes and where we have them ranked. Do you wanna go bottom to top or top to bottom?

Jeff: Let's go bottom to

Brent: Okay. So starting from the very bottom, number 22, I'll let you guys keep track of the numbers.

Uh, we have a late delivery from Avalon at the very bottom. Coming up from that ceremonies of light and dark exogenesis convictions a day in the strife. Walk about at number 17. Seek at 16 dust to dust voices of authority. That's the one with Chicky, uh, matters of honor, which is number 13. Grace 17 is missing.

Sliding in at number 12, way higher than most people, I think would put it. Uh, shadow. Dancing in at number 11, bringing in the bottom part of the top half of the season, passing through Gmy at number 10, making a top 10 entry there, interludes and examinations at nine, and the Rock CCR out. No place to hide messages from Earth.

Ship of Tears, which was the Bester episode, and then the top five point of no return Severed Dream War without, in part one, Zaha Doom and War within part two, taking the top spot of the season. Now, Jeff, you said I get to go first.

Jeff: Can I stop you real quick before you dive in here I am, I'm full of proposals, and I promise you none of them are gonna be indecent.

So sorry to, sorry to disappoint there, but

Brent: folks. Jeff looks nothing like Sharon Stone. Just for the

Jeff: I don't, well, not Sharon Stone from then, maybe Sharon Stone today,

Brent: uh, that's not nice.

Jeff: That's not, I, I was just trying to, I was trying to elevate myself on that one. I really feel like, and I'm open to debate on this, but I feel like the war without end two-parter

Brent: Yep.

Jeff: is kind of one episode.

Brent: Uh, did, did it air as one episode, like kind of a TV movie? Do we know, or did it have the

Jeff: know, you know, I think someone did come in, cause we asked about that and I, I, I think that it had the break, but it's one story.

Brent: It, it is one story, but the, the, the only reason why I would say to keep 'em separate is because there is a clear distinction between the two. Number one, very much set up, number two. And number two specifically was the, Hey, let's go revisit Babylon squared and show it to you from the other side.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: So there, that's the only reason why I would say they're different, but they really are one story. I mean, but you could make that argument for the entire show.

Jeff: The whole thing. I think these though, more than anything, they're self-contained episodes that you can't watch indepen. Like you can't really watch the part

two without part one, but I can watch severed Dreams without watching, um, point of no return.

Brent: Okay. So I, I'm okay with putting them together cause I think that's, that's not a, a, uh, a bad thing to. Because if you were to, you might have just said this, if you were to drop into the middle of, of part two without watching part one, you'd be like, what the heck's going on? Like, you kind of need that. Uh, so what that means is we're only gonna have 21 episodes in our season in Jeff.

Here's what I'm gonna ask to do though. We have to define this. Currently, they're split part two. Is it number one and part one? Is it number three? So if we're gonna combine them, do they both collectively take the top spot of the season, or does Zaha Doom take the top spot of the season?

Jeff: they both collectively take the top spot if you ask me. That's my opinion.

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: want to, I don't necessarily wanna spend a move on it,

Brent: Well, um, so I was gonna say if, if you're going to make it number three, my first move will be to move it up to number

Jeff: okay. So let's, uh, let's just do this then, right? So let me make sure I, I know how to use a word processor, which I apparently don't. There we go.

Brent: And just say war without in parts one and two. All right. So, uh, that's gonna move into our top five ship of tears. That's gonna bring ship of tears back to the top five, which is really cool. And, uh, yeah, we got 21 episodes of the season. Um, I'm looking at this whole thing, and Jeff, for my first move, I'm going to pass. I like, I like it as it is.

Jeff: That is a bold, bold

Brent: I like it as it is. Now I'm open to talking, but I'm going to take a pass on my first move.

Jeff: Okay. I

Brent: have places you want to move, but.

Jeff: I've got, I I, I gotta move for my first one. I am gonna move walkabout.

Brent: Oh, okay.

Jeff: So shadow dancing, we talked about this when we watched shadow dancing, but shadow dancing really changed. What happened in WA or our impression of Walkabout and I, we ranked this based on what we saw when we saw it, where we thought it was a really well done metaphor with the singer and the glass where Franklin saw himself.

It wasn't

Brent: That that was, that was what the walkabout thing was supposed to do. Right. But it wasn't, because it turns out that's actually what Shadow dancing was about.

Jeff: exactly. So we had to sit through that whole thing too many times. So I'm gonna take that and I'm gonna move it right below Exogenesis.

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: Whoops. And make that our new number 19.

Brent: Okay. Um, Then for, is this my first move or my second move? Does

Jeff: This is your second. Well, you know what? You know this. We can make it your first. I'm

good with that.

Brent: I'm actually gonna move, walk about myself

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: gonna drop it one more spot to number 20. I'm gonna drop it below Ceremonies of light dark, cuz I still like ceremonies of light and dark. Um, as an okay episode.

I like walkabout as an okay episode, but, uh, yeah, it's, it's going into, it's, I'm bringing it up.

Jeff: Okay. All right. So for number two for me, you know what episode I thought was really, really good and has some impacts further than we thought was dust to dust.

Brent: really remember liking that episode a lot.

Jeff: It was good cuz we got the drugs. We got really the launch of Kar on his whole, like his whole literal come to

Brent: This? Yeah, this was, yeah, he, he went, he got high. Is this the one with the elevator scene

Jeff: No, that was, that

was convictions

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: I think. Yes. Cause that was the one with the bomber was cut. Uh, convictions. So I'm gonna take dust to dust. I'm gonna move it up and I'm gonna move it up.

I'm gonna make it our new number 11.

Brent: Oh, you're pushing Gray 17 is missing back

Jeff: I know it was really a question of that one, her passing through Yosemite,

Brent: Yeah. I want, everything in me wants to move Grace 17 down just because of what it's supposed to be.

Jeff: but what it's supposed to be isn't

what it

Brent: not what it is.

Jeff: It's a good episode. Well, it's a mostly good episode.

Brent: Yeah. And we've seen that, but like, We're Tru . The episode was fine. It, it was, it was a really good episode. Um, yeah. I, I'm done, Jeff. I'm done.

Jeff: you're

Brent: I'm done.

Jeff: Okay. Hold onto it cuz I am gonna, ma I have one other move and so you can hold onto that in case you wanna, you can,

Brent: Well I still have two then, I guess, but still.

Jeff: didn't you move

Brent: I moved one, so that means

Jeff: Oh yeah. I guess you do have two more. Look at you. You might have change at the end of this. Well, Brent, I'm gonna move a late delivery

Brent: No you're not. I will move it back. Just so you know, wherever you move it. I will spend my last two if I have to. Cause I will override you and put it back. This is not going any further higher than where it is right now at 21.

Jeff: It's at 20.

Brent: Wait, what?

Jeff: there are 22 slots for this, uh, for this season. Right. I'm gonna move point of a later living from

Avalon to number

Brent: a minute. We're gonna combine war without End, and we're gonna have 20 episodes, and then you're just gonna leave a blank at 21,

Jeff: Yeah. Are you okay with

Brent: in a late delivery from Avalon. You know what? I rescind my entire statement. I'm not touching it. I'm gonna leave it right where it's

Jeff: It was so disappointing. I mean, we already talked about it, but it was so disappointing. Well, here it is. We're gonna go, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll take this one for our audio listeners. Bottom to top. A late delivery from Avalon at number 22. Literally anything else in 21 walk about ceremonies of light and dark exogenesis convictions day in the strife.

Seek transit, vir. Voices of authority matters of honor. Grace 17 is missing in dust to dust. Top 10 starts with shadow dancing. Number nine, passing through Gethsemane interludes and examinations, and the rock cried out, no hid in place. Messages from earth, ship of tears, point of no return. Severed dreams, Zaha doom, and in number one, war without end parts, one and two

Brent: Jeff, I gotta tell you, I'm, I'm looking at these and, and those top really, those top seven episodes are such standout episodes.

Jeff: big.

Brent: And then the next group of episodes are still really freaking good. And I, I think that next group really has that. Like, yeah, there might be some stuff you could, you could nitpick about it, but the episode, the guts of the episode are really, really good, you know, and then you get into, Hey, these weren't necessarily the best, but I'm not changing the channel if they come on. You know? And then there's the other ones that are like, Hey, these are good episodes still. Um, you know, and ranking this season is kind like if you look at, oh, there's no way that that one's that low. There's no way that episode's that low or that one's that high. And it's like, yeah, but when you're ranking all the stuff you like, something has to go down.

Jeff: you know the dude who got last place in the a hundred meter dash in the Olympics.

Brent: It's still better than

Jeff: any, like almost anyone in the

Brent: all but 19 people in the rest of the world, right?

Jeff: Uh huh And that's what we're dealing with right here. Season three was the Olympic level. Season of Babylon.

Five.

Brent: Like the guy who gets cut from any professional sports team is still better than every other college player out there,

Jeff: Yeah. Uhhuh.

Brent: Yeah. I like it. So, Jeff, that is locked in.

Jeff: It

Brent: Written in tablets to survive the ages, the definitive ranking of season three, Babylon five. Wow.

Jeff: It's huge.

Thus it is written. Thus it shall be.

Brent: and that didn't even take like an hour and a half.

Jeff: We're pretty efficient. Look at us.

Brent: Well, Jeff, I guess with that we have a few extra minutes. Why don't we let, let's dive in two season three a little bit more. All right. And let's talk about, uh, some of our characters. We always have a segment where we talk about our favorite characters from the, from the season. Season one. We talked about favorite character.

Season two, we talked about characters whose changes meant the most to us, uh, this week or this se this season. Sorry. Let's talk about which characters, Jeff, you felt were either overutilized or underutilized during the. Maybe they got more screen time than they deserved, or they just didn't get enough.

What, what'd you think? Who do you got?

Jeff: Here's who immediately comes to mind for underutilized ivanova

Brent: Hmm. Yeah.

Jeff: season two. Like she was running the station, right? What started out, she was, you know, trying to keep everything held together. She got a promotion, she was learning diplomacy. We found out she was a latent telepath. We saw the beginnings of a relationship with Talia, all this stuff.

Uh, what did she do in this season? I mean at, at, at the very end of the season, she kind of got involved right in, in a couple things, but it's kind of just like her job stuff, you know? And yeah, I mean, and, and, and she was the voiceover, she was the voiceover for the credits and just there wasn't a lot for her.

What about you? Who do you think was U underutilized in this

Brent: I also had a Vva, but I did have a few others. These are more of the side characters that I would've liked to have seen more. Um, but honestly, I thought Marcus, I thought Marcus was highly underused. Like we could have followed Marcus on any of his off world adventures, off station adventures. And it had just been so fun.

Um, but I also had linear, I really, I really would've liked to have more linear, but my, the one that really jumped out to me was Brother Theo.

Jeff: Right.

Brent: comes in, in what the first episode and then we get the, the, the tone setting episode of passing through Gosei, which focused on him, and then we didn't see him again until the end of the season.

Jeff: the very end when the Rock was

Brent: Yeah. And like, and here's the thing, he didn't need more. I don't even know that he needed to be in every. But he could have been in 10 episodes, even just like in a bit roll, like they're just there and because apparently these monks are doing something for the station, like, Hey, we need this thing. Great.

Have the monks do it. Like they could be the, the thing that makes stuff happen, you know?

Jeff: when Sheridan and Dalen were trying to find the pattern in the attacks, right? Like go to your pattern people go to your data

people.

Brent: Exactly. And let's face it, the costuming and makeup for those guys, it wasn't that expensive. So just bring them in.

Jeff: Central costuming and brown shift.

Brent: you had all those people come in that were extra mbar. You can have these guys come in and and bring that. So I, I did, I would've liked to have seen more. Am I mad that they weren't there? No. Am I okay with how it turned out? Sure. But I think that, I think they could have been, been used also. I would've liked to see more draw like the, the whole thing about the, the planet.

And the machine that's on that great planet, we still don't know a ton about that thing just yet. Um, what we know is it's been there for at least 500 years,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: but the whole thing with Jaquan was a thousand years ago.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: that the math isn't, isn't tracking for me.

Jeff: I still think that Z Atheros a thousand years ago built the great machine.

Brent: You think he built it?

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Interesting.

Jeff: I mean, who, he knows it. He just, you know, where he worked for a long time. I, you know, it's interesting cuz like, we talked a lot about Draw and just over the last two seasons and how the, you know, the, the, the new actor who's the younger version of him, Our impressions and how much he grew on us.

Like I, I didn't start out loving him, but I came to love him. But I thi I feel like he and Marcus kind of fall into a similar category for me, where if there was more, I think we got the perfect amount of Marcus because he's kind of the snark of, you know, like he's, he's the one bagging on the French, you know, and stuff, and very contemporary to our time and a lot of the stuff that he says.

And I feel like more of him would've gotten to be too much. Whereas Draw, he was so operatic and everything he did and was awesome in fun because we got him a couple times. In fact, we talk about Overutilized characters and I have a really hard time with that. Like, who was Overutilized in here? I mean, I could say Franklin easily because I mean, as our community often points out, I'm incapable of giving that guy even a second look.

But I. I, I feel like this season was really well balanced as far as like no one got shoved down our throats. We didn't have a keer, like from season two, that they just had to keep shoving in our faces all the time. In this one, I, I can't really think of an Overutilized person. I don't know if, if you,

if

Brent: got one. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, the guy that played King Arthur,

Jeff: touche, touche.

Brent: I mean, he was, he was in one episode and that was one episode. Too many. It was fully overutilized.

Jeff: I feel like I, uh, can't argue with that.

Brent: I'll tell you somebody else who was underutilized, um, the dude that replaced Brad Durif,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: I want to come back to that guy. I want to see him,

Jeff: I want Sheridan to like, have to face

Brent: Yeah. Deal with that. So

Jeff: want him to come in, do something incredible, save Sheridan's life or something. And Sheridan have to be like, but you're a

filthy murderer. Oh, it'd be good.

Brent: yeah.

Jeff: Hey, maybe that'll ha, maybe he's the

Brent: Or, or, or to double down on the, Hey, you actually are a new person.

Jeff: Yeah, that's what I'm saying is, is get him to buy in. Yeah. Like that would be such a great story, you know, of just go through the, the trial, have him save him and have him come to the realization that like, oh my gosh, people can

Brent: do you think we might, you know, we always hear about that, like JVs lays down threads and then he picks them up. But sometimes not till seasons later. Maybe that's like a season four, season five episode. That'd be

Jeff: Or again, I think that Gethsemane as a whole, including that character was really just like, that's letting us know. Remember that guy you thought was a bad guy back in season one? Jaar. Yeah. Turns out he is. Jesus. Also, remember that guy you thought was a lot of fun and had a silly hairdo. Yeah. It turns out he's Darth Vader.

Brent: There you go. All right, well, let's do this, let's move into this. Okay. Um, let's talk about storylines from the season. What storylines did you love and which ones did you kind of not love at all? And I, I'm gonna separate because here in just a moment when we're done, Jeff, I want to talk about specific moments, so don't confuse storylines with moments.

Jeff: Okay. My favorite story,

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: oh my gosh, this is, this is hard. Uh, cuz two come to all three f Quite a few come to mind. , there are just a lot of really good ones in this one, but I'm gonna tell you the best one. That was the almost the most shocking for me. And that's the best. It's Besters storyline.

Brent: Oh, so good.

Jeff: It's

So well done.

And, and not only am I saying in season three, but ster from season one, like back when he showed up in Mind War to now, just the arc that he's been through. And I think it was. I think it might have been dust to dust where I first brought up. I'm like, I, I kind of think Bester might actually, like, I think they are the bullies to ster.

He's not the villain. I think he's the v the, they're the villain to him. And then he kind of came in and showed that, and I just thought, I, I, I thought it was really, really well done. I loved the Bester stuff.

Brent: Um, I actually have that as one that I hated, but for a reason why though? Because I liked the story so much that it really made me mad when we needed him the most. They didn't call on him at all.

Jeff: Or even mention

Brent: Right. So that's, I mean, that's something, so we talk about the monks not being utilized, bester not being utilized, people not be like resources that we have, draw in the great machine.

Resources. We have not being utilized very well in the war so far.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. . Yeah.

I didn't like the King Arthur stuff in this season.

Brent: Oh, no. Uhuh, uh,

Jeff: but, you know. But what? Oh, you didn't say what you liked. What,

what, what did you

Brent: you know what I mean? There's a reason. It's the number one episode of the season going back to the whole war without end storyline. Picking up Sinclair as, uh, an ambassador on Men Bar. He's leading the Rangers all the way through to, turns out he is Valin, which, I'm sorry. I still like, I was looking just the other day at the picture of him when he steps out as a mbar and I'm like, I don't see Michael O'Hare under that makeup at all.

I just don't, like

Jeff: you you could have showed me that pi Yeah.

Brent: You could have shown me that picture. I wouldn't have known it was him. You could have

Jeff: like, oh, there's a

Brent: is vain. And I would've been like, cool. We're getting a flashback.

Jeff: Uhhuh . Yeah.

Brent: That's it. And, and you could have shown me a picture of Here is vain with these two angel wispy dudes before I ever knew what those were.

And I would've just been like, yeah, that's Valin. And there's something weird behind.

Jeff: Yep. There's the flashback

Brent: Yep, that's exactly what I would've thought that was. Uh, but the being able to go through the story of Babylon squared, but look at it from the other side, it's, that's just a great way to do a story. It's a super creative way.

Um, it's not the only time I've ever seen something like that happened, but every time I do, if you do it in a good way, it, it's just good tv.

Jeff: Well, I've never seen it done two seasons later, right? Like you see, it's like this episode is this, the next episode is the other person's point of view. This is two seasons later, whole new cast of characters, massive context changes. Like it was, it took that really exciting episode from the first season and just like.

You thought this was cool, look at all this stuff over

here.

Brent: right. While, while you were looking over here, look at what was going on over here, like

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: it was, it was so good. Um, And then just from a touching standpoint, Jeff, I have fully enjoyed the very slow play of the Sheridan Delin relationship, even right up until the video that Sheridan left for Delin in Zaha Doom, where he is like, look, I don't wanna be back with my wife.

I wanna be with you, and I love you, and I wanna stay here with you. And I, I love this relationship that has developed between Dylan and Sheer and Sheridan.

Jeff: Yeah. And, and I think I love it because it was done slow and naturally and it wasn't forced. It was very much. Um, and, and I think all the other subtexts that, and sub stories that led to it. We talked a lot about like when Sheridan talked to his dad and they just wouldn't say, I love. And then in the ceremonies of light and dark.

When and when Sheridan's like, yeah. So I kind of dig you a little bit like I like spending time with, you couldn't say it, but in that moment, in that video where he's like, I love you Dalen, because of those other missteps that became that much more powerful, which was a good counterbalance to the less powerful first, second kiss.

Brent: Or was it the first or the third?

Jeff: Yes. . That's a, I can't do time travel and I really can't do math. All I know is that both people had first kisses in different times.

Brent: Right.

Jeff: So I'm out. I can't, I can't touch it. Was there a story you, you, you couldn't stand? Was there anything in there that you just really

Brent: I mean, yeah. Uh, Franklin's Walkabout. I thought it was just awful. Like it, it had, it had some potential. I liked the way it ended. Everything else leading up to the way it ended, like I would've been fine if it was the lounge.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: would've been fine if it was what, Superman three or Superman two, where Franklin is coming up against himself and he's, he's, he's crap talking himself and then egging himself on like,

Jeff: well that even better because Death Walker was in Superman two. And so that could have brought the dil Gar back in.

Brent: there you go. I love it. And then NATA comes back in and we're all good to go. Yes. Yes. Original Nath, by the way. Um, but, uh, I, I would've been fine with either one of those, but having one completely negate the other good call on the ranking of dropping one because it recontextualized it. Uh, I think that's, I think that's really, uh, I think that's really smart.

Jeff: I'm glad you said it cuz it was what I had his mind and as soon as I said, oh the Franklin is my least favorite story, people have been like, you can't see Franklin for anything. You just hate him. No, it was not a good story arc and it had the potential to be, I really think if they had finished it with Walkabout and then gone through just the, this sounds so clinical, but to go through the mechanics of his withdrawals and his dts and then finding help, oh my gosh, that would've been a much better use of everything and ended in that same place.

Right. Where he like where he is being cool to people and trying to, yeah. I mean, help you be

Brent: I think if he had gone through the walk about, had the experience he had with the girl and realized who he was, and then if he was still out for several episodes, maybe he's in a rehab clinic and he's going through all those dts, instead of being curled up in a, in a corner somewhere, he's actually in a spot where he's actually getting help like that. That would've actually been, I think, been more interesting to me

Jeff: Also

Brent: forcing it on

Jeff: look at Brent forcing Star Trek and, oh, having, having things like substance abuse treatments and mental health treatments. What a Star Trek dream

Brent: I can't believe I got a buzz for that. Geez.

Jeff: Well, it is. I, I, the Franklin had to break the rules, break the law of open a clinic down in, down below, ultimately for his underground railroad thing. You think they've got, well, they have probably like a Betty Ford clinic thing for like the upper brass to go through. But

Brent: or, uh, he doesn't have to stay on Babylon five. He could go somewhere. He could be on another world.

Jeff: yeah,

Brent: You know what I

Jeff: to Minbar,

Brent: Yeah. Go

Jeff: They're all about that stuff. I'm

Brent: jump gate back to Earth and let's see him on Earth. Oh, oh, Jeff, what could have happened if Franklin would've gone back to Earth for rehab and all of a sudden he's getting involved with Earth first?

Uh, what, what is that? Home Guard is trying to recruit him, and maybe he runs into something with Cyco and the shadows back on Earth. And, and, you know, because of his situation being back on earth, something opened up. And I, you know, here I am trying to rewrite JM S'S masterpiece of season three, and I'll, I'll let it stand and not redo that for him, but,

Jeff: I was gonna say, even just go back to Earth and run into his dad and have to have that moment, moment of like, dad, I'm, I'm an addict. I'm sick. And, and like, really, you know, break a lot of that stuff that we saw in, in Groose back in season two, that that would've been cool, you know, and then had 'em come back or whatever.

Brent: I will tell you the one thing about the whole walk about thing that I did appreciate, I did appreciate that his whole recovery wasn't wrapped up in 42 minutes. So, you know, while it, you know, if j m s is ever listening to this, and I don't, I don't know that he is

Jeff: I doubt

Brent: star Trek guys watching my show.

I, I don't know. I hope he is. Because you know what, Jeff, you and I are growing and we're changing, and I hope he's around for this journey that you and I are on. Uh, but I've, I very, I like, I don't want you to misunderstand that I'm saying that those pieces were bad. I'm just saying. Or that you should have, you should have written it like this. Like, no, I'm not. No, no, no. You're the writer. You write it how you want to. I did like that. It wasn't just wrapped up in one episode though,

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: even though I didn't care for the rest of it.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: That's just me. right, Jeff, let's talk about moments, individual moments. Now, this is a much broader concept, um, and this could be your top three moments and or I'll give it an and or either one, your letdowns top three letdowns from the episode or

Jeff: Oh

Brent: the season. You could go either way. What you got,

Jeff: I have two definite top moments immediately that come to mind. One, that big old hologram of Sheridan floating in the sky declaring independence

Brent: it is. Yeah.

Jeff: Oh my God. Not only was it a great speech, not only was it a cool visual, right, but like it was. Earned. We talked about it a couple times here in this, in this wrap up already.

We, the seeds were planted back in season two. We put those pieces together and when it happened, I think I shared in severed dreams, like my wife was like over. And the other thing of when he gave that speech, she was like, whoa, whoa, . Like even she was impacted by that. Like, that was, that was incredible.

The other one that was huge of course was sin like the moment when like, Sinclair is valin, like ah, the way they did it was like, where Marcus just kinda looks up, he's like, oh, I, whoa. And then we got the reveal and it was one, it was validating cuz I predicted it, but also it was just so awesome cuz again, it was seeded all the way back in season one that we were going, you know?

So, oh yeah, those, those are the two that immediately come to mind for me. One of my letdowns though, I'll say one of my letdowns was veer. I feel like, and, and, and I am, let me just say, I am confident this is part of his growth and his arc as a character. But I think we came into season three with a growing veer, growing in his confidence, in his strength.

Um, and he lost a lot of his edge. We really saw that in seek transient vir. And that's, that's one of the reasons that I didn't care for that episode so much is it, it it undercut a lot, in my opinion. Undercut a lot of the development that we've seen from him so far that I'm confident we will see payoff later.

But also just in this moment of this season, like I just, I just think back to season two in, um, when he went into Mor, got in Morden's face, was that, uh, shadows of Zaha, I think, where he did the little wavy thing and, you know, I wanna see your head on it. Like that's, and, and then in that episode too, he stood up to Sheridan, right?

So he's standing up to Sheridan, he's standing up to Mr. Morden. and then we got him like cing to some female centara that he didn't even, hadn't even met before.

All of a sudden it's like, oh really? That's kind of a letdown. I have hope. Very high hopes for where that's gonna go, but in the moment, that was a big letdown for me.

I also liked, I can keep going on the stuff I liked, but the dad stuff. Right. So Sheridan talking to his dad. Oh, love that scene. But also the other side of that where Kosh threw Ja car's drug in, you know, infused Haze. Had him talk to his dad when he was there. And then again using Sheridan's dad when Kosh was like, I'm getting beat down.

This is like, it was just a really cool through line of like that power of that, that relationship. Okay. I'm gonna let you, what, what were some of the moments that you, you were big for you?

Brent: Yeah. So, um, I also had the, the Babylon five breaking away, so, well, I won't rehash that. Um, but I, I have two londo and well, actually all of my moments involve Londo and Kar.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: The b the best moments of this show are Lando and Kar. Do you agree?

Jeff: All

Brent: Like, cuz it's, it is Londo, so all three of

Jeff: the show.

Brent: all three of mine are Londo and Kar.

Uh, first of all, Londo and Kar in an elevator.

Jeff: Londo and Kar in an elevator.

Brent: Live it up when I'm okay, I can't do that cuz that's,

Jeff: Yeah. Not

Brent: anyway, um, that scene like where, where we've sat back for a whole season through season two going, we need to get these two guys together on a room again, because they're magic and we've been missing it. I feel cheated because they're not in the same room. To be able to, to get that back and just see how great those two are, where, where Andre Kales is sitting there, not even saying a word to Lando when all of this is going on. And he just starts laughing at him and he's like, we're gonna die and I'm gonna watch you die. And I love it. And then suddenly they get rescued and he is like, no, it Oh, so good.

It's so good. Uh, my other one is the Death of Refa,

Jeff: Oh

Brent: where Londo and Ja, where, where it turns out this was a planned subter fuse between Londo and Ja car knowing. So that means they've been having conversations some way somehow unbeknownst to us, which is awesome and I need to

Jeff: And awful. And awful. That's just cruel to like keep them away

Brent: And it's cool to, yeah. Right, right. So, but that, I mean, that whole scene of the death of Refa intercut with the, the Gospel singer and, and how Longo is just like, I played you like a fiddle also. I played veer like a fiddle, but I had to, but I played, uh, it was just a, and Ja car's just like get him, leave his face, make sure they find this data crystal, and let's go , you go to town.

Um, although I will say the Narn still have a goofy way of attacking people. Just this, this arm, like Haymakers going out on

Jeff: You know what I want to see. So it was, it was beautiful the way they intercut that beat down with the gospel song. I wanna see somebody cut that together with Dr. Dre and Ice Cubes Natural Born Killers

Brent: Hey, internet, do your thing.

Jeff: Make,

Brent: your thing. Yay. Do your thing. Send it to us at Babylon five first gmail.com and we will put it on the channel.

Jeff: A hundred percent. Yes. We'll credit you everything. Like we'll get

Brent: put it on the channel. It probably won't be able to be monetized unless we can get the creator feed for it.

Jeff: yeah,

I'm, it would be cool. I'm also pretty sure neither Dr. Dre nor Ice Cube nor j m s are gonna be happy about all those things coming together, but it's gonna be

Brent: but the rest of us will be so . I don't, yeah, why? Why don't you think j m s wouldn't love that? That'd be dope, man.

Jeff: have you heard this song,

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: It's one of my favorite songs of all time, actually. I love it.

Brent: So my final, my final moment that I'm gonna put in is as a top three moment, Londo and Kar Londo and Kars death scenes

Jeff: Mm.

Brent: where, you know, lawn's like, Hey, actually I'm good.

I've put this watcher dude to sleep and I need some redemption and oja car time to come kill me. And then all of a sudden, there you go. For the folks listening at the, uh, on the audio thing, Jeff just put a watcher on his shoulder growing out of his neck. Um, but, you know, and the watcher wakes up and all of a sudden he starts it.

Like that whole moment, which is, has been seated since the gathering, at least midnight on the firing line when Lando said, my vision is we are gonna kill each other or will both die with our hands around each other's necks. Uh, seeing that come to fruition, um, it was, and knowing that like something has to happen between the Lando and Jakarta characters on some sort of a redemption or reconciliation, uh, at least to a certain degree, you know what I mean?

Like, I don't know if it's a full reconciliation, but you know, to, to at least a certain degree. Um, yeah, it was, it was a highlight of a moment for me.

Jeff: Yeah. That was so cool. And, and like you said, it was seated at the very beginning. Reminded us in season two, and then we got to see it in season three. Like boom, boom, boom.

Brent: Uh, a couple of letdowns you mentioned veer. I'll mention veer here. Um, I thought his return to Babylon five was very wishy, wishy-washy his demotion. Um, we watched him get promoted to an ambassador and kind of really doing pretty good, uh, despite rondo's constant interference. But then to just demote him back, like that was, that was disappointing.

That was a letdown like, and now he's just right back where he was like, it, it didn't feel like it served the character of veer at. You know, um, I understand you wanna get him back on Babbel on five because he's a part of the cast, but I just, I don't feel like that I, I don't understand that thread and that storyline of why take him away in the first place, only to bring him back and do something like that.

I know people out there are clacking their keyboards right now. Just you wait,

Jeff: Right. Well, cuz I think there's, it's a couple things. One, like we had assumed when he got the job that, that Steven first got a different job also, right? So, hey, yeah, go film your sitcom or go do your Broadway play or whatever, and well, this, and then maybe that fell through. So it's like, oh, okay, well, we'll bring you back in.

Maybe he needed that minbar exposure to Yeah. To be that thing that pops up later in the future or whatever. But I, I agree. It was just like, oh, great thing this happened. Nope, you're back and nothing has changed. Also, I'm gonna beat you down worse than I've ever beat you down before. Um, yeah, just not, didn't feel good.

Brent: Um, Another major letdown for me. We've already mentioned it at one point when we realized that the lounge singer in walkabout was not the thing of Franklin's walkabout was not the come up, like, was not that fulfillment. I actually liked that way better than I did what we got of, I'm gonna see a vision of myself and talk to myself for a while.

Although that was very compelling, that was a very compelling scene. But the, the metaphor of what's going on with the lounge singer, I thought could be there. I will say though, the one thing I didn't understand how, what happened to her at the end would've translated to his walk about thing. But I, I, I, I wish that was just, that could have been a little more clear.

Jeff: well this is how you do that, right? So her thing at the end is she had an actual medical condition. She's in Med Lab. Remember? We're like, how'd she get in Med lab? All of a sudden, like, what's going on? , but you just take that awesome scene where frankly went to help the, the other doctor or the nurse with Cauter.

The Cauterizer, you change that up a little bit where he's there looking at her, oh my gosh, you know, I'm so sorry, I didn't know, and this, that, and the other. And he looks over and he sees the person doing something. He's like, Hey, let me help you with this. Like, I mean, you, you could have told the whole story with that lounge singer act, and I feel like, I feel like it would've been, it would've been a more beautiful metaphor than just blatantly saying, here it is.

Brent: and, Hey, by the way, that, that, hey, so I'm, I'm over the addiction right now, or I'm even more committed to being over this addiction. So now I'm gonna check myself into a rehab back on earth. Where, by the way, we're gonna find out something when we're back over there, while he's going through his dts and all that sort of stuff.

So, like, it, it, it just, it was a letdown, uh, because, uh, you know what it was, Jeff, j m s didn't meet my expectations.

Jeff: How

Brent: I know, right,

Jeff: who does he think he is?

Brent: Um, and then the, the final one, and again, this is absolutely not meeting my expectations, but it didn't meet yours either. The whole King Arthur thing, the reveal that he was not actually King Arthur, but he was somebody else.

He was the gunner. Um, and I don't wanna take away from that story, cause I think that was, that's an interesting story of like, what is the guilt of the guy who dropped the bomb on, uh, Hiroshima Nagasaki? What's he feel like? That, that's what we're

Jeff: real thing.

Brent: Um, where they put it, how they couched.

It was such a letdown for what it could have been. And it was just, it was a disappointment, honestly, to me. And so,

Jeff: You know what else was a disappointment early in the season that almost made me worry about the season? Was hearing the bomber's motivation back in convictions, right? Remember that when he is just like, so the guy's blowing up, he's literally blowing up Babylon five, and he is like, yeah, people were mean to me in high school.

Brent: Right. It was that.

Jeff: got evicted from my apartment. And it's just like, and again, like we're looking through different lenses, but it, like, I remember being into that episode and then that moment came, I'm just like, oh, re mm, re really, really,

Brent: right?

Jeff: and one more honorable mention on stuff. We loved that moment. That split second when Zach turned on security guard guy and got all the night watch people trapped in the thing as he dove through the doors, it closed.

That was awesome. Peak, Zach.

Brent: go. Jeff, I want to do something. I'm gonna pull a surprise on you cuz this is not in our show. Rundown.

Jeff: All right.

Brent: All right. Cuz I've got, I've got, I've been hiding something from you,

Jeff: Oh, great.

Brent: but right now just, just go with me on this right now it is time giveaway number two.

Jeff: What? No,

Brent: go. We were giving away another star fury.

I wanna give away two another star, fury, Jeff, somebody who wrote in a review who has not won yet before on any of our uh uh deals. This bad boy can't stay on my shelf back there. I've gotta give it away. Who am I giving it to? Jeff.

Jeff: we're, oh, I'm excited for this one. Uh, username on the review is Adam Paaz. This is Adam Pai. He's on our Patreon. We talk to him on the Patreon all the time. So Adam, you don't have to email us, just hit us in the, in the discord on Patreon.

Brent: just let us know where to send it. We will get it to you. Adam, thank you so much. What was Adam's re review? Do we remember? Do you have it pulled up like right there?

Jeff: I do, I only have the names and the stuff here,

Brent: Gosh, Jeff.

Jeff: can, I can get it though.

Do you, me? Okay.

Brent: all right. Don't worry about

Jeff: I've got links to things. I can pull it up.

Brent: that's cool.

Jeff: Thank you for

Brent: cool. I just,

Jeff: That's cool. That one makes me have Adam, super cool

Brent: yeah. Yeah. I just obliterated a later section on our nose, but that's okay. There's a plan.

Jeff: Oh great.

Brent: now I am actually gonna pull something out that is not in our notes, but I do want to go to it before we step into the next section. Jeff.

Jeff: okay.

Brent: Uh, and we've done this in each of the prior epi, uh, prior season wrap-ups, and we should do it here, coming out of season three. We're wrapping up season three at this point.

What are some of the big questions you have coming out of this season? What are the things rolling around your head?

Jeff: What happened to Sheridan? I mean, that, that's the question, right? I mean, we can dive into a couple other things. I, I still have questions around, um, God, I mean, just really that whole last scene in, in, in, uh, in Zaha Doom, right? With, with Sheridan going down into the Sarla pit, the shadows that were just converging onto to Babylon.

Five. Just, just, just piecing out and, you know, where they and Garabaldi, like what's going on with, with Garabaldi and, and his whole thing. I like, I, it's fascinating now that I think about it cuz at the end of season two, I was all about like, gosh, I wanna know what's going on on earth. This whole storyline.

I'm so satisfied at this point with never hearing about Earth again. Like, just let, let them blow it themselves up and Babylon five becomes the army of light or whatever it is. And, uh, and let that run where, yeah, I have questions about Earth, but like for me, so many of the questions are wrapped up in that Zaha, the end of Zaha.

Brent: I'm definitely with you on, you know, what happened to Sheridan and when you jumped down that big old hole. I've got questions about the motivations of the shadows. Like, are those the real motivations that we got? Actually, this might, this question might encapsulate most of my questions is, is that real?

Were, was Morton and his friends really telling us the truth about the shadows? Do they really feel like that conflict is the best way to drive evolution of the other? And, and this is really altruistic on their part. Right. Um, but then like, so we also sh saw the vision of the future and are, are we really going to destroy the shadows?

But we're gonna leave their min dominions and, what was the other word they

Jeff: dark dark agents

Brent: agents and minions like, like, what are these guys? What's happening there? That's a new thing for us. And is this whole scene with Lando as the emperor and the thing on his neck and him and Ja car, is that really gonna come to pass? Because we know that the future may not be the future,

Jeff: Well that was Sheridan's whole theory. Hey, I'll go off to Zaha Doom and that'll make sure none of this stuff happens, cuz I single-handedly on my own decided that and

Brent: Yeah. And that me going to Zha is not what actually makes all this happen,

Jeff: Yeah. Even though it probably is,

Brent: is. Right, exactly. Um, and then honestly, Jeff, this one comes a lot from you. For me, what is the role of David in the. What, what's he gonna be? Um, I need to know if Marcus and Ivanova are ever gonna get together.

That's a, that's a thing. Um, I still have a lot of question marks about the political status of, uh, Babylon five,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: you know? Um, I,

 Um, and then, you know, we got this info right was at the end of season two or the beginning of season three, I don't remember, but we saw a scene where we're on earth in a senate person's office, and there's Mr.

Morton and there's Cyco representatives and there's the senator. And we're like, they're all in, in cut boots together. And, um, they just sort of dropped that. And why are the shadows involved with Cyco if Cyco is supposed to like hurt them? But we also know that they were using those people to. Power their ships cuz they make better connections, I guess or something.

Jeff: something, yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of dangling pieces there.

Brent: Um, and then, and then honestly, the whole, the whole ster thing, what's he gonna do? Because there was lots of opportunity for him to return and he didn't. Now that may have been more Walter, uh, uh, can's schedule and not being able to come back and j m s had to ride around it, or it just could be they didn't, they didn't write 'em in.

But those are, those are I think my major questions, uh, that I'm looking for here in the remaining two seasons. Jeff, we're down to two seasons.

Jeff: Yeah. We're

Brent: Like, we're like the light, the light's small, but it's definitely on at the end of the tunnel,

Jeff: Mm-hmm. , it's getting bigger. It's

Brent: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . All right, Jeff. Well, I guess as we look at season wrap-ups and, and where we are, uh, Gonna kind of do it for us here, uh, for our main discussion of the third season.

So this is a spot where we look at does it have any of that star treky quality to it? Is there a deep moral message or is it holding up a mirror to society, giving us hope that we can be better in the future? Jeff, this is where we'd normally braid it on a scale of zero to five deltas and zero to five star furries.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: You made a proposal earlier. May I make a proposal? I've been thinking, I've been thinking a lot about this.

Jeff: please make sure it's not indecent. That's kind of our tacit

Brent: This is,

Jeff: now not so

Brent: this is, a proposal that is very decent and I think this may be a proposal that pleases so many of our listeners and j m s. If you are listening, I think this proposal may please you quite a bit.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: Joe. We, uh, Joe, Jeff. I don't even know who Joe is. Jeff. The show has grown Babylon. Five has grown as a show.

Jeff: Yes.

Brent: Along with the show, we have grown as the show has gone on its arc. You and I on our journey have gone on our own arc as Star Trek veteran podcasters into, at the end of the word you used was nascent Babylon five podcasters. And as we have discussed before in some recent episodes, the show, we kinda seem moving on this path. The show isn't Star Trek really at all. The more we discover things, the Babylon five really is kind of its own thing, but it does do that sci-fi thing where it there. At times a moral and a message, and it does hold up a mirror to society.

And it's just not very Star Trek at all in how it does it. In fact, it's very Babylon five, and it does it in its own Babylon five way. But it is still holding up that mirror. It's doing that thing that we think Star Trek does really, really well and, and that all sci-fi should be doing. Um, but it's just doing it so much in its own way.

So I want to make a suggestion, I wanna suggest that right now we jettison, we stop. We cease. We have given out our final delta and our final star Fury for rating episodes,

Jeff: Okay. Okay. I think I know where you're

Brent: and I suggest that from now on we only give out Delta Furies.

Jeff: if I may. Oh yes. All about it. I think it's, we, we've talked about Babylon five seeding this natural progression of things and it has just like sci-fi grandma said in their review, we have grown and changed, like you said, and what, like three outta the last five some odd episodes, we've dropped Delta furries in because here's this incredible Star Trek message told in a way, only Babylon five can do it.

Makes total

Brent: and I would even, it's not even a Star Trek message, like it's not something that Star Trek would even tackle and babble on. Five is tackling it.

Jeff: it's the sci-fi message. Right? And I, and I, and I think that's where people have gotten hung up in the past. This is not star. You can't compare it to Star Trek. Well, we we're not. We've just labeled it that way. And what you're saying, and I think if what you're saying is what I think you're saying then I agree with is it's time.

We just shed that label altogether and just say, here's what, here's what Babylon five is saying

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the, the Delta Fury, it's, it's doing the message in a Babylon five way. I love it. I love it. So, Jeff, I'm gonna give it to you. How many Delta furies do we give Season three.

Jeff: passing through guests. How many set the tone for this season? We've talked about that since it, that was the third episode. Was that the third episode? Fourth episode.

Brent: Take that. People who say Brent doesn't remember anything.

Jeff: Right. Seriously, you know whose mind is a steel trap right now? It's Brent Allens. That's who?

Brent: I'm good with numbers.

Jeff: It's good. I'm not at all. But the, the theme of this has been forgiveness and redemption.

That's been the theme of this entire season, and it played out in one of the final scenes, right? When Sheridan, who took it upon himself to go and solve this problem, redeemed himself essentially by jumping off the, the, the, the ledge and, and going in and into the, the Sarla pit for stuff.

Brent: Can I just say I love that you keep calling it the star lock bit

Jeff: It's just the perfect, it's the perfect thing. It's the, I love it so much. But this theme carried us through everything, right? Earth and Babylon, five Ster, Lando and Ja, Lando and Kar and Elevator, right? It was all these pieces through everything. and it was awesome. It was good. This season, more than anyone is, is, is carried in Babylon five.

We got the earth stuff, direct ties. We that were seated in season two to 1984. Like we saw that in action when Chickie showed up Right. And was gonna be their, their minister of peace. We got, we got Catholicism as a, as a, as a device to, to, to show all this stuff and, and we got Zs. We got Zs again in this one.

I'm having a hard time not giving this five Delta furries

Brent: It's a good season, Jeff.

Jeff: and I think that's what I'm gonna give it. Brent, this is a five Delta Fury season. I mean the only thing I can say bad about it is the King Arthur thing

Brent: Yeah. But that even fit within the message. Like if you take that episode as awful as it was, and you look at what it was saying and what it was doing, and I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Jeff, didn't we give it a five Delta

Jeff: Yeah. Uhhuh . Yeah, I think so. And we should, if we didn't, we should have, because that message of forgiveness and that moment with Dalen and the sword that was just dumb , but so powerful at the same time. Just so well done. Yeah. I'm five Delta furries.

Brent: Yeah. It's, it's a great episode or a great season. And, uh, it gave us messages, messages that honestly only Babylon five could do it or Babylon five would tackle, and it did it in a way that only Babylon five could do. So I dig it. Hey Jeff,

Jeff: Hey, Brent,

Brent: I've been keeping a secret.

Jeff: this is a lot of secrets. You're

Brent: know, I know.

I'm gonna just, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. I've got you right?

Jeff: I don't do well. I do very well with

Brent: Yes, yes. Welcome, welcome to my world. This is into, into the Brain of Brenna Allen. Um, so we gave away a couple of these, uh, these star furries.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: I actually have two more.

Jeff: What?

Brent: if we gave away not two star Furies, but four star Furies in today's season?

Three wrap up. All thanks to our good friend Wash.

Jeff: I love it. Oh my gosh. I love

it.

Brent: one more. We'll save the fourth one for the end of the show.

Jeff: All right. Let me hit my little guy here.

Oh, this is an old one.

Brent: Oh, yeah. Because anybody who's sent in a review who hasn't won yet is eligible. Right.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. This one goes back. So this one is from Janice fourth.

Brent: What's up, Janice?

Jeff: Left us a, uh, review on Apple Podcast that was titled A Voice in the Wilderness. So, Janice fourth, I hope you're still with us. I, I hope you're enjoying everything that we've done. But welcome to Star Ferry number three.

Brent: go. Email us to Babylon five first. That's the number five and the word first. gmail.com. Uh, send us in your email, your email address. No, send us in your mailing address and we will send you out one of these, uh, star furries.

Jeff: This is cool. I love this. This is, this is, uh, it's exciting giving stuff like this

Brent: Isn't it fun,

Jeff: huge shout out to Wash. I mean, you've given him a couple, but I wanna do it again. Just this generosity of time and everything that he does to do this. It's super cool. But Brent,

Brent: Jeff?

Jeff: we're done with the third season.

Brent: Are we,

Jeff: We

Brent: we're done. We've officially wrapped season three,

Jeff: Have in the fourth season that we're gonna dive into next week has, you know, these seasons all have titles, like overarching titles to them, and the fourth one is called No Surrender, no Retreat. Now you and I, Brent, we like to play a game where we don't look ahead at anything, we just look at the titles of these things.

And so the title here, no Surrender, no Retreat is the fourth season. What are your thoughts on, what are your predictions on what the fourth season is gonna bring us?

Brent: What I'm trying to decide right now, Jeff, is does the shadow war come to a conclusion in season four, or does it last all the way through season five?

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: Again, narrative arc being what it is. We are now entering the falling action of the narrative arc. This is, this is, so we've hit this, this high point where we've blown everything up.

Now we, now it's gotta, it's gotta start kind of coming down. It doesn't mean you're, you're getting lesser quality. It just, things have to start turning. And things could go bad for a while, but it's gonna, it's gonna eventually turn good. Um, so no surrender, no retreat. I think this has to be that, uh, the army of light is gaining, um, I think by the end of the season they have to gain the upper hand, if not outright win.

But I think as a part of the following action, uh, there's pro like from the, the thing that Sheridan has done, there's gonna be this bump for them, but then it's gonna go down and it's gonna get really bad. And they're gonna have to make this, this deal of no surrender, no retreat. We're gonna stay the course, we're gonna st, we're gonna dig in our heels, we're gonna fight, we're gonna fight, we're gonna fight, we're gonna fight.

And by the end of the season, like I said, if they, if they don't win outright, it, it's gonna be a turning, like the final episode is gonna be a turning point towards the win, is my guess. I think that's what the season's about.

Jeff: it's like the great sacrifice that Dylann mentioned in the future where she's like, we, we, we made this amazing thing, but at such great and terrible sacrifice, we're gonna see that. And unless you're

Brent: Yep. Yep. And somehow we have to get Sheridan back from outta that hole. I don't know. I have no idea what's gonna happen there.

Jeff: well maybe he's wearing Beker armor and he can just climb

Brent: climb back out.

Jeff: or, we're 12 for the for, for Mando.

Brent: Although if Mando would've just waited for a while, he could have been, you know, gone out the other end.

Jeff: Well, it takes a thousand years to go through that process in this. Our lack, I don't know if you, I mean seriously, Brent, how do you not know

that?

Brent: Um, veteran Star Trek podcaster here, not Star Wars.

Jeff: Fair enough, fair enough. So I think the, this ended with Kar telling us that the war has paused. I thought that was a really interesting choice of

Brent: Sure. Sure.

Jeff: I think that this season is generally gonna cover three very big overarching stories that are gonna overlap, but they're gonna kind of happen in this order.

First, we're gonna see in this pause Babylon five building its forces and maybe aligning the league of nine non-aligned worlds, right? So they're all aligned now and there are gonna be aligned, um, in a new alliance, maybe called Babylon or Army of Light, or the federation?

right? Or, but I, I just hope desperately they don't call it the army of light.

That would be I'm ready to move past, past that name.

Brent: Well, you know this, this brought to you by the same organization that brought to you pain givers,

Jeff: True. That's very true. Right? Oh man. I've blocked out so much of that episode. Thanks for bringing it back. Second story is gonna be earth,

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: and I think the earth is gonna just openly be like, yep, we're in league with the shadows. Um, and to quote, mega Death, brother will kill brother, and we're gonna have outright war between this Babylon Alliance and Earth.

And

finally

Brent: So, much the shadows, but Babylon and Earth.

Jeff: Yes. With the shadows on Earth's side. , which leads to that third big story, which is the shadows, right? It'll lead to the ultimate showdown, the granddaddy of them all in this corner, Babylon, and in this corner of the shadows. Let's good it on. And I think that the season four is going to end not with the, I think it's gonna be that turning point where like, we're at war, things are not going great, but then the season ends with, ah, this thing happened.

And then season five is gonna be that, that conclusion that brings everything together.

Brent: I dig it. I dig it.

Jeff: Well, now let's do the episode,

Brent: Oh, I gotta do two of these.

Jeff: Ah, yeah. These are, these are rough, these are rough

Brent: Oh my word.

Jeff: And speaking of next week, we're watching the first episode of season four. It's called The Hour of the Wolf. Like I said, all we know is the title of this one. So Brent, what is your prediction for what Our of the Wolf is going to be

Brent: I feel like I've heard this phrase before.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. , you probably have.

Brent: Um, I'm trying to remember what it means. Uh, okay. Here's, here's what I know. Just based on season two and season three. The first episode is not a, what, what's j m JMS column? A wham episode. It's, it's not this big, like, boom. Welcome back. We pulled out all the plugs for the, for the premiere.

It's gonna be a very mild, um, this is a week after the last episode ended. we're kind of figuring out what's gonna happen now that all of that's going on. I don't think we're gonna see Sheridan in this episode. Like if we see him, it's gonna be in the final shot and he's waking up in the bottom of that pit or something of that nature.

Like, it, it's, it's, he's gonna just,

Jeff: It's his eyes

Brent: yeah. Yeah. And we're go, oh, that's where he is. And, you know, they're trying to figure out what life is like without Sheridan. You know, maybe Ivanova gets promoted to captain of the station or, well, I guess who would, who would promote Ivanova if something happens to Sheridan?

Who promotes, promotes Ivanova.

Jeff: I don't know because it, because at first I think Dalen Right, but she's not over the station. She's over the Rangers. I don't know herself.

Brent: Uh, right. That, I mean, she is the, the ranking member, uh, on, uh, on the station. So,

Jeff: declares herself, Lord, captain Commander. Just cover it all.

Brent: His Majesty herself. Um, that is a reference to Queen Heit, the first female Pharaoh of Egypt. Anyway, um, yeah, so I think that's what it is. I think this is a very low-key. Um, they're figuring out what to do without Sheridan and, oh, I wish I could know what this hour of the Wolf thing is. I feel like it's like, isn't it like it, it's something that happens like two, three o'clock in the morning and

Jeff: It's an hour. All the bad stuff happens. It's where people, the most people die during this hour. It's where, like in movies, it's stuff that's where they, there's the witching hour that happens, but then the hour of the wolf is where I call the bad

stuff

Brent: Yeah. So I, I feel like they're, they're dealing with a lot of that, um, But a lot of it is just figuring out Sheridan and then we see Sheridan, his eyes open or something, you know, uh, at the, in the very last shot of the episode.

Jeff: Hour. The Wolf is also a very intense Ingmar Bergman film from like the early seventies is a classic, really good one. It's got Maxon Sido in it, or Sido in it. And so Sido is this artist who has gone missing and is being psychologically tormented. And it's, so, it's kind of about the torment he's going through and people looking for him.

And so I think in this one we are going to have people going out to look for Sheridan, right? They're gonna put together search parties, um, you know, go see if they can find any evidence of what happened to him. And then we're going to go through and we're gonna see Garibaldi in his star theory in the shadow.

Who's going through whatever torment that is to be inside of a shadow, to kind of set up his story, you know, and, and what he's going through, heading in after, uh, after Sheridan.

And we're gonna find out next week.

Brent: Yes.

Jeff: Hey, Brent, you know what time it is.

Brent: What time is it?

Jeff: It's our regularly scheduled time for the giveaway that we've already given three

Brent: yeah, let's do number four. Let's get it.

Jeff: So we've got number four now. All right.

Brent: You remember that scene on space balls where dude walks in on Lord Helmet and he is like, have you been playing with your toys? I feel like that right now. Just play.

Jeff: they're action figures. Oh, ooh. I like this one. This one's just fun to say. I'll tell you, there was one I was rooting for just so I could say their name. They didn't come up, but this one's still fun to say. Treky, Trey, the tracker.

Brent: Yeah, I think he's one of our patrons as well.

Jeff: Really?

Brent: sure he's one of our

Jeff: feel like it if they're not, if you are and I don't, and I'm like, oh, you're a patron. I'm

Brent: Yeah. Like I feel like we've been talking to him in Discord lately.

Jeff: Okay. Well, Treky, Trey, the tracker, uh, in their review, shared some of their Babylon five story and how, uh, how it impacted their life. So Treky, if you are a patron on our discord pit us up, dms, whatever, and tell us your address.

Otherwise, email us at babylon five first gmail.com.

Brent: Hmm. Dig it

Jeff: Hey, we're there, do you have any other closing thoughts or anything?

Brent: on to season four. Jeff, let's go. Hey, listen, it's not two hours. Let's go. Come on.

Jeff: Well, thank you everyone

Brent: Come on.

Jeff: know seriously.

Brent: had me waiting. I'm so ma, I hate these weeks because I'm not allowed to move on. I hate these weeks. Let's go.

Jeff: Well, thank you everybody so much for joining us for our season three wrap up. Don't forget to subscribe or follow wherever you're listening or watch us and hey, we just proved that on top of the cool value of getting your, your review read here on the podcast, you're gonna be put in for drawings and really cool stuff.

So go out there, leave your rating, leave your review, and Brent, until next time. Yeah,

Brent: um, we changed from Deltas and star furries to just Delta furries and kind of moving away from the whole Star Trek thing. Are we gonna keep riffing on that old Vulcan quote, uh, at the end of our episodes? We haven't talked about this yet.

Jeff: we haven't, you know, I think, I think we're kind of off of that now. You know? I mean, we've been doing it for quite a while. Instead, what do you say? We riff on an old naar quote.

Brent: Oh, oh yes. Which one are you talking about?

Jeff: No. Um, it's the one that Jaquan wrote, but honestly, it sounds like it could have come from Star Trek somewhere at some point. Except it's not, it's totally from Babylon, five and Jaquan. No one knows the shape of the future or where it will take us.

Brent: I like it.