Comes the Inquisitor | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we do. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon 5. I love it so much.

[0:22] We're officially into it, Jeff. the year is 2025 the name of the podcast babylon 5 for the second time welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen and i'm Jeff Akin

Brent and i used to be star trek podcasters and then we watched babylon 5 for the first time and absolutely everything changed so So we've decided to watch this incredible series for the second time, looking for all of those things that there's no possible way we would have seen the first time around. And while we're doing that, we are searching for all the sci-fi messages, maybe the ones we caught the first time, but definitely ones that we had no idea about before. We're also looking to see what JMS himself is saying. This is what I was saying. We're looking at things like where he's holding up a mirror to society, where he's giving us hope that things might be better in the future, or just telling us how to be better human beings to one another. That being said, if you have not seen this show all the way through yet. Uh, this is the spot where Jeff and I would tell you, stop this episode. We actually have a whole series that is completely unspoiled about going through it for the very first time. We invite you to join us there. And then when you've seen it all the way through, you're going to want to watch it again. That's why we're doing this. Come back and catch up with this then.

[1:41] Because, because this is our second viewing, which means everything that we're going to talk about from this point forward can and will be full of spoilers. And they can come from any part in the timeline, from any part in the series, in the franchise, in the universe, out of the universe, all that sort of stuff. Everything is fair game for us to talk about. So if you don't know where the show's going or you don't know what's happening, stop. This is your only final warning. One and no more. That's what you get. Brent, this week we're watching an episode called Comes the Inquisitor. Do you remember what you thought of this one when we watched it for the first time? Yeah, I do. I loved this episode. That my memory is really, really loving this episode. I thought it was brilliant. I thought it asked the right questions of the right people at the right time. This episode shows redemption for the most unlikely of people that you never would have thought you would have seen in this show. And now that I'm thinking of it, this show, this episode shows us just how close the shadows and the Vorlons may actually be to one another.

[2:43] I've maintained they're actually still very different entities, and one is definitely good and one is definitely bad as far as I'm concerned. I know there's some gray area, it's not all the way and I'm full on board with that, but still, The preferred way to me is the Borlawn way of doing things, but it does show that there are a lot of similarities because it's pretty shadowy in how they handle stuff here. Things happen in the shade. Jeff, what do you remember about this episode? I remember. Memory impression. Go ahead. I remember hating this episode. I felt like we got Delenn at her absolute worst. I thought the Inquisitor, especially at the very end, I'm like, oh, my God, so dumb, so stupid. What a dumb idea that means nothing. The whole thing, everything about it, I think it undercut so much of who our characters, specifically Sheridan and Delenn, had become to that point.

[3:41] It confused things with the Vorlons a bit. I don't think there's anything about this episode I cared for at all. It's so interesting to me that you say that jeff yeah because well before we were coming on mike here you had made the the comment that this is one of the episodes that you have been looking forward most to re-watching that's true dive into that for just a minute why why this particular episode of of the 111 that are out there that you're like i can't wait to see that one again why is this one on top of your list because i think that this is one that this really feels like an episode that is built for a second watch so much happens after here with sheridan and delin and the vorlons that at the time we had no inkling of and so like where i felt it was i was being they were being undercut and and.

[4:32] You know, uh, cheapened. I don't think that's necessarily going to be the way I look at it now. I, I just think this is an episode I'm going to have an entirely new set of lenses to watch through. So Jeff, I went back and actually listened to our first, uh, go through. You did. I did. And here's the thing. I'm, I want us to actually engage this conversation right now before we watch the episode. So, so listeners out there, people are here for the, just the reaction portion of the video.

[4:58] Please indulge us just a minute. This one might be a little bit longer of an upfront before we get to the video because i do want us to engage because i think it's important we do this prior to watching the episode so we can then compare it after the episode okay okay um jeff the the interesting thing is you and i were actually fairly similar on our thoughts and feelings for this episode really we didn't love it but we didn't hate it we both talked about that we didn't love it but we didn't hate it which is weird to me because in my memory i loved this episode and in your memory you hated this episode now i will say by the end of the episode you slammed it pretty hard like by the time we got to the ranking and stuff uh and it's a good thing that i was the one who actually had to rank this episode uh you just had to do the messages portion way back when so because i was right anyway uh it was very you know very midland piece you compared this episode you're right objectively correct ranking yeah Absolutely. You compared this one to sourdough bread. Okay. You revealed a bit more of the history of Jeff to us and that Jeff at one time was a baker.

[6:03] And you talked about some 100-year-old starter sourdough thing that you had received from somebody. Yeah, portents. How great it was. And you just kept going on and on about sourdough bread. And I don't really know what point you were making. All I know is it made me hungry.

[6:18] Sourdough bread is delicious. It really is. I had said, and this is where I really want to dive into this, okay?

[6:26] Because I had said that this episode, I felt, and I was making a prediction. This was, again, this was my, as I was approaching it, I was not even a prediction. I was making a speculation, all right? I said that this was Babylon 5's duet. Now, duet is an episode out of Star Trek Deep Space Nine. It's a first season episode. It is an episode that most Star Trek folks look on very, very positively. The acting is stellar. It's two people in a room talking is what the episode is.

[6:56] It is an episode that I think the actress, the actress to that point was, I think she came out of the theater world and coming out of the theater world, going into television, going into film. Those are two different animals. And this was the one where she really made that transition very, very well. I think also watching that episode benefits a lot. Once you know the end of the story and where it goes, what I've discovered is when you're watching it through for the first time and you don't know where the character goes, you don't know where. the actor goes, you don't know how good the actress actually is. It's very meh. And it's not a great episode on first watch. And my prediction was that comes the Inquisitor speculation. I keep saying prediction. It's not pretty. My, my speculation was comes the Inquisitor is a very highly thought of episode within the fandom that people love this episode as they, as they go forward, they just look at this as like a high watermark of, of just acting and excellence. And we all love Wayne Alexander.

[7:56] Like he is the Jeffrey Combs of Babylon five, right? Like we love this guy. We love everything he's doing. And this is, I believe, his first appearance on the show. I don't know.

[8:04] Council Chambers, first appearance on the show. I believe that's true. I could be wrong. But regardless, just he knocks it out of the park. So I had that as a speculation. And I said, you know, the more you're able to rewatch it, the more you're going to appreciate it. Which is, I hope that might be a bit of what is also making you really want to go watch this episode again, Jeff, to see.

[8:25] They are confirming the Council Chambers, yes, this is Wayne Alexander's very first appearance. But Jeff, this is where I'd really love for us to talk about this episode now, full of spoilers in light of what we know about where the show goes. Okay. Okay. Now, this may be a little hard for you because you didn't have all the recap and everything that I got. Right. Yeah. I remember so little like of this one. Okay. Here's the thing. Um, my fee, remember, so the, the basic storyline of this Kosh needs to know if Dylan, uh, and Sheridan are the right people at the right time to do this thing. Like that's, that's his thing. And this is his, his testing for them. And so he puts them through this inquisitor and really he comes on the station to quote unquote, do this with Dylan. And he puts her through a lot of pain and, and a lot of torture. Um, You know, and and inevitably Sheridan steps in and he takes a big brunt of it and they kind of do it together. And it turns out he gets to the end and he's like, hey, just so you know, going through all of this, you are the right people at the right time in the right place. So congratulations. Then he goes away. They really talked about the idea of and I and I nailed I noticed very, very prominently on my first watch through. They kept asking the questioner, who are you? Who are you? Who are you?

[9:41] Versus the shadows of what do you want? What do you want? What do you want? Which we know is like that was JMS's whole thing with these two. Who are you and what do you want? He later adds to the questions of who do you serve? Where are you going? Where are you going and what do you believe? Or something like that. There's another. There's five of them that are like kind of form the core of everything that he has. I had a theory, though, Jeff, that this was not as much of a testing as it was a teaching. I remember talking about that. The stuff that Sebastian put them through was not to test them and see if they were the right people, but was more to teach them that they are the right people. And here's where I want us to talk about this and have this conversation. Could Sheridan specifically, because we know Dylan just sort of side pieces it here for a big chunk of the rest of the show, right? Like, unfortunately, I say I say that with with broken heart because Dylan's so great.

[10:38] Um, but could Sheridan and Deline have done what they needed to do to be the one who is and the one to come without this, without this, without going through this experience? Could they have done? Like, was there something that happened here that they needed in order to move forward there that they, because the lesson they learned in the end was they would sacrifice not just for the galaxy, but they would also sacrifice for just the one that there. It was about more than themselves, and it was bigger than themselves. So could Sheridan have broken away from Earth had it not been for this experience? Could Sheridan have led? Could he have done the, get the hell out of our galaxy? We're not going to play with you folks anymore, which is very weird because the Vorlons were a part of that, right?

[11:24] Could he have done that? If you go to Zaha Doom, you will die. Okay, then I'm going to go sacrifice myself for everyone. Could he have done it? What do you think? So actually he went to Zaha Doom because he thought that going to Zaha Doom, being told to not go to Zaha Doom was trying to trick him into, it was that whole thing where because of War Without End he got that.

[11:46] Interpreted it. I'm thinking about it. And you know what? I think that Sheridan's core character still would have seceded from earth. I think his core character still would have gone to Zaha Doom. I think it's who he is. I think this showed us that's who he is unequivocally, right? I think we've seen pieces of it in this, this season specifically, because it's his first one, right? We've watched that arc from like, I'm a smiley show up pro military guy that does all that to Like, actually, like, I'm super awesome. I have a ton of integrity. I can see all the lies and the conspiracies behind things. And I can kind of play both sides of that coin as necessary.

[12:27] But when I think about what I remember of this, I don't know that it was as necessary for him as it is for us. Interesting. I think. I'm not so sure. Now, maybe he would have still gotten there. He would have just gotten there in another way or it would have taken him longer to get there. I don't know that we can fully answer this question until we have watched Matters of Honor and Passing Through Gethsemane and all of those right up to Point of No Return, Severed Dreams, all those sorts of episodes. I don't know that we can really get there until we watch them for a second time. But in my memory, I feel like there is a change in Sheridan after this episode. I feel like there's a confidence level that goes with him. There's just something about Sheridan that changes fundamentally. And I don't know if that's...

[13:17] Because of the writing, if that's a change in how Bruce Boxleitner was portraying him, or if it's my own perceived thing on top of it. And we all know sometimes the way we remember something is not actually the way that we experienced it. Right. So anyway, so let's let's keep an ear out and see as we kind of go through this episode. You had lots of feelings our first time around, Jeff, about Dylan and how whiny she got. But why are you doing this to me? You like you really like I kind of wanted to slap you. I'll be honest with you. Because I did not agree with you back then. I do not agree with you now. Because you basically were saying, or at least it felt to me like you were saying, yeah, it doesn't matter what he was doing to her. She should have just shut up and took it. Oh, wow. No matter what.

[14:00] Like, that's what you felt sounded like you were saying. Like, I don't care that he's torturing her. And she should have just sucked it up and just took the beating, however it came to her, that she shouldn't have talked back to him. But you know what's interesting about that is that's exactly what sheridan does when he's getting tortured in intersections in real time like he doesn't so i don't know i'm interested to watch listen i'm sorry you you're gonna come torture me i'm gonna be like why are you doing this to me this is awful maybe i have no problems admitting this maybe i'm not as much of a man as bruce box lightener or john sheridan like god i don't problem admitting that anyone it's a very short list of who is who is you had a prediction jeff you predicted that veer would become a war hero for the narn oh okay he never did so you failed that one but i liked that i liked that prediction well abraham olinconi wasn't necessarily a war hero but was like an underground hero dude it'd be so cool if abraham olinconi like there's like schools on narn named that.

[15:07] For that character, that person, you know, and like, ha, ha, ha, he never actually existed. They're all log cabin schools also. There you go. There you go. Did you know I can take you to a place in Kentucky where there is a grave? I mean, there's lots of graves, but there is a grave. And by this grave is the plaque. And the plaque says, I want to be this kind of a person one day. Here lies the man, the preacher who married Abraham Lincoln's parents.

[15:37] Wow not the i could almost see the preacher who married abraham and married todd lincoln like i could almost see that but no no no no well jeff could you even name abraham lincoln's parents no you cannot but this is the guy who married them it's like what like i don't understand why, Anyway, that's his big claim to fame. By the way, also in that same place is the birth cabin. It's the cabin that Abraham Lincoln was born in. They transported it to this old historic site. Anyway, we talked about Veer. Speaking of Veer a lot, we talked about his growth as a character in this episode. And as a fan listening now, knowing the overall arc of Veer, Jeff, I was so proud of us. We were spot on with tracking Veer. Like we were on point with where we were tracking with where he was in the growth that he was going through. You and I also had a very big conversation, Jeff, about the chosen one or if there was a chosen one. Now, we talked about the one with Zathras and stuff like that, but we never really used the word chosen until we got to this episode. Is there even a chosen one? And you said, Jeff, there isn't a chosen one because there's a chosen two. that Dillon is the chosen one right now and Sheridan is going to be the chosen one to come. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

[17:04] Wow. You were 66% of the way there, pal. Oh, my gosh. That's nuts. Right? Right? So anyway, so that was a lot. I mean, most of our episode honestly was taken up with either talking about Veer or... Talking about what I thought the fandom was going to think of this episode, or you just be moaning and complaining about Dylan. That's really what our whole episode was taken up. I'm so excited about this because I don't even remember Veer being in this episode. Like, I don't remember that. I don't remember anything about that. Fair enough. Fair enough. Jeff, that's what we thought. I know you've scoured the internet. You've looked around. You've seen. Did the great maker himself have anything to say about this episode? Oh, he had so much. So much to say. Really? And what's interesting, and what I appreciate, we found this as we've gotten deeper and deeper into the series. Some of the questions we have posed just in this, there are answers. Or at least a little more context on the whole thing in this.

[18:02] From a technical standpoint, John Flynn got a nomination for some award for cinematography for this episode. Didn't get the win, but got the nomination. All right. That seems to be the case with a lot of Babylon 5 in this era. Right. They're getting the nominations now, which is good because they weren't getting nominations before. They're getting the nominations now. The next step is to start winning them. He asks what the point. Someone asked what was the point in bringing up Sebastian's past, the Jack the Ripper thing. He says it's integral to who he is now and what he's doing and why he's doing it. There's something very important here about graying up the Vorlons a little. Of all the people they could have chosen for this job, why this person? Person it makes them a little more morally ambiguous and that's necessary somebody responded to that with what doesn't fit in with the way the vorlawns have been portrayed it really bothered me jms's response was good that's the point yeah in a real way like reading through some of the stuff that i didn't necessarily capture for this but i think in a big way one of the primary points of the episode was to gray the vorlawns to introduce that hey maybe they're not just purely good this There's an awful lot going on in this show that is sub Rosa or under the surface of Just implied in gestures, hesitations, looks.

[19:23] Ooh, that'll be fun to watch for. Yeah. That'll be fun to watch for. Okay. Sebastian hates the memory of Jack. It's not his name. It's the one thing that is his, right? His name, Jack is not. He's caught up with who are you? And his answer to that is lost in the persona that has been created by history. His true name who he really is is totally forgotten there's a lot of stuff in here like he spent a lot of time so what he's saying is Sebastian is actually his real name and Jack the Ripper is is just a completely made-up persona of how wow okay interesting interesting you know what I you know what I do find I love the fact that he's like a lot of this is really supposed to gray up the Borlawns and that's the way you're supposed to feel something I remember I, Really, from this episode forward, Jeff, when we were going through our first time, and I'm going to talk to y'all out there, y'all commenters and stuff. This is one of those things where everybody started making comments, but, Jeff, almost all of the comments were the same comment.

[20:30] And it was that comment of, oh, how do you know that the Vorlons really – remember, not everybody is what they seem. Why would the Vorlons use somebody like Jack the Ripper if they were really so good? Like it was a lot of the same question again and again and again and it was one of those where i first started going let me run to the lurker's guide and just say what i've been told to say, jms well not even that just jms has said something or somebody has said something and it is permeated through the fandom that this is what we think when we come to this episode you know and by the way that's completely normal that happens in every fandom it just does but it was one of those i I think for the first time, I became aware of that happening in the Babylon 5 fandom of like, this is groupthink at its finest coming through here. So go ahead.

[21:22] He says that since the episode aired, he's received many notes from philosophy teachers, religious instructors, and those who ran this Synanon game. I don't know what that is. Noting that they've used this technique as well or intend to do so. Where you ask a question and there is no correct answer. No matter what answer you give, the question will be repeated. It's the process. There's no actual goal in this. It's just following the process. It is designed to tear down the artifices we construct around ourselves until we're left facing ourselves and not our roles. At some point, the answer, such as it is, must transcend language.

[22:07] This next note is really important for me. Like this adds a lot of context to, uh, Delenn's behavior in, and now for a word. Okay. Here in this episode, and then in a handful, um, of others that come up because of the lens position, rank and authority, she expected to be treated a certain way, which was why it was important to treat her just the opposite. it. It's easy to put oneself into a grand prophecy to assume that you have a destiny. To pay the price for that is something else entirely. Anyone can do the former and very few can ever do the latter.

[22:51] Like I really read that as like, we get that. Minbari society is very enclosed and your status matters tremendously. And so now she's in this big diverse world where they're not living like the Minbari live. And so like, well, I'm going to go talk to a reporter. And of course, they're only going to ask me things that are, what? They didn't stepping into this. Well, I'm a former satai. You should be treating me like all of these things. I mean, I, I'm part of the prophecy for goodness sake. Like I'm doing these things that living in that world, but then being yanked out of it like this adds a ton of context for me and the things that I've really held against the character of Delenn when actually like they're very in line and true with the character of Delenn. Interesting.

[23:43] I'm just one more, and then I've got some stuff for the episode itself. This one is interesting to me. So we talked about the need to gray up the Vorlons. Yeah. He says there's also a need to have an absolute mirror counterpoint to Morden. Here you've got the smiling, pleasant, utterly charming, and good-looking fellow who is our mirror, if you will, in which we see the shadows reflected. So now you need something dark and ominous and terrible as the mirror through which we briefly glimpsed the Vorlons, which has to be done all in one episode. You can't develop that gradually as with Morden. So everything about Sebastian was the opposite of Morden, and each is the opposite of what they represent, at least as it appears to us now.

[24:35] So what were the what were the words he used to basically describe more than there he's what do they say good smiling pleasant utterly charming and good looking so basically what he's saying is is that that uh wayne alexander is uh what were those were those words again smiling frowning pleasant unpleasant utterly charming and, Completely revolting and good-looking. Ugly. That's what he just said about Roman Alexander. He totally did. He totally did.

[25:14] It's not cool, man. It's not cool. Dude, JMS, man, that's harsh, dude. That's so harsh. Man. My God. If you need somebody who's revolting and ugly and not smiling, and what was the other one? Being charming, right? Good-looking. yeah whatever dude just give me a call i'll i got you man i'll tell you i'll take care of that for you his agent's like oh god those are good descriptors like i can get that stuff i could, sell ugly let's do that well brent with that let's dive into this one for the second time what do you say let's get after it so if you're joining us for the first time i'd like to say hello and get ready for a ride. You've already been through one at this point. I want to explain to everyone what's about to happen. So this isn't one of those videos where Brent and I have gone off on our own and watched the episode and taken notes and are here to dissect it and dive into all the thoughts and stuff we have. That was our first time viewing. You can go back and watch that one. This is a reaction video. We're going to watch the episode with you in real time. We're going to bring it up. We're going to watch it during that watch. We're going to stop. We're going to talk We're going to talk about stuff. We're going to probably argue about a few things and stuff like that.

[26:30] The YouTube, if you're watching this on YouTube, the YouTube version is going to be edited to mostly those conversations that are happening. And the entire unedited version of the whole thing with the episode and whatnot, that's available on our Patreon page and that's at patreon.com slash bad nerds.

[26:52] And if you are listening on the audio podcast, you're going to hear that reaction because we want you to be a part of that conversation. And then on the backside, as Jeff said, we'll talk about it. We'll go through messages. We'll re-rank it, which is awesome. And that's what everybody really wants to hear. So, Jeff, that being said, let's dive into the episode. Let's go. Accessing file. Yes, for a moment, their guns are silent. But when they realize they've been able to do this to us without interference, their eye will turn to you. You sit in silence today, but tomorrow that will change. Did we bring up the poem on this? Yeah, I was going to say, this is where you brought up the poem of like, when something happened, I stayed silent because it wasn't me. And then it happened to them. And then it wasn't me. And then by the time they came for me, nobody was left to talk for me. Are you willing to sacrifice all that you are to keep all that you have? Street preacher Jakar. Right. It is pointless. The end is not. Why do you embarrass yourself like this in public? We must know that our voice can still be heard in the streets in their sleep. We must keep reminding the others that we exist. We are still here. If they forget about us, then we are truly beyond rescue. That's an interesting idea.

[28:04] Take that as a sci-fi message. Just a life message, right? Yeah. When do you actually die? Is it when your physical body goes away or when people stop remembering who you are? I think it's that, right? Yeah. I mean, I've said to my kids many, many times, you know, because you have to deal with the idea of death every once in a while as a parent, right? Like, it's just a thing. And, you know, yeah, there will come a day. There's going to come a day. But the thing is, is if you keep me in your heart, if you keep me with you, I'm still there. Yeah. Like, I've heard it said before, like, our children are our legacy. Our children are how we are born. Mm-hmm, exactly. And through those lines, and I can still name you at least my ancestors, the ones that I leave through, at least through the male line of my family, because it would be very, very branching. But I can go back about six or seven generations, and I can go back about 20 or more. I can go back to the 900s and trace that particular line. So there is a thing. Like as long as we're remembered, you know, and Jakar says that line, like, you know, until we are until they no longer remember us, then that's when we're truly dead. Like, wow. That's like the fact we haven't mentioned the Markab once. Who? Exactly. I don't remember that.

[29:22] It is hard, though, because at some level there is like the whole thing of like, well, Jakar is just that crazy guy in the streets. There's your guy. You and I were both very suspicious of Veer in this moment. Like, he's up to something. He knows something. Yeah, no, it turns out he's just feeling very awkward and empathetic.

[29:42] What an om... Look at this. He's in the shadows. Is there something wrong? You, perhaps, we have sent for an Inquisitor. Saying you might be wrong. Who's we? Inquisitor. We have sent for an Inquisitor. Why?

[29:57] To be sure about me you will submit to his authority that's ominous how will i know who it is you will know if you survive if you survive question question if you survive you will know who the inquisitor is is it possible the inquisitor is not sebastian right but is whether herself or sheridan sheridan kosh or or something yeah it could be it's fascinating wow who's we ben says we is just the borlands in general which i think is probably the most natural the the natural understanding of what that means but is there something else i wouldn't be surprised if the borlands don't necessarily have a concept of i that could be interesting they just don't even have a singular concept like they're they're they're not they're not a hive they're not all one but they are all one yeah we are all kosh to be sure about you why it's it's very interesting to me that dylan an ambassador supposedly on equal footing with kosh as an ambassador he he says jump and she goes yes sir how high and where would you like me to land like yeah like that's interesting to me i you know i think like with them with uh the both the kosh is showing up in.

[31:16] Um ducat's room way back like she understands there's like they are equals but they're not they're not equals yeah we're not on the same level here i totally get that but it is interesting i don't know if we got this juxtaposition your favorite word yeah the first time but in um signs and not signs importance but in chrysalis uh-huh delenn had to see kosh to know for sure now kosh has to see Delenn to know for sure. Or I maintain maybe Delenn has to see Delenn to know for sure. Oh yeah. Because I'm still not sure that that's, like, I'm still unsure of what is the motivation here. Like, what has changed since Chrysalis, let's say, let's give them the whole season, okay? What has changed since Chrysalis that has made Kosh and the rest of the Vorlons look at Delenn and go, we're not actually sure about you. Let's bring an Inquisitor in and just make sure. What's happened in the last season that would make them want to do that? Is it just that the shadows have become more and more to the forefront, so they've got to now do a final check before they go? Or what's going on? I think you might be onto something from what you were talking about earlier.

[32:27] They know the answer to the question. Like, they know what's going to happen to Delenn. They know everything up to when Sinclair goes back to the past, right? And so they understand that she's going to play a role. She's going to have all these things. They know she's the one, essentially. So maybe, to your point, they know that she needs to go through this to come out the other side ready. So back up just a little bit. Okay.

[32:48] Going to War Without End. By the way, spoiler alert. If you're still here, why? Go away. Go. In War Without End, Zathras has a conversation with the three of them.

[32:59] Sinclair, Sheridan, and Delenn, and says, it's all three of you. You're the one who was, you're the one who is, and you're the one who will be. He goes through that. Kosh is not a part of that particular conversation. Correct. Okay. Sinclair goes back in time. Kosh and Kosh 2 Electric Boogaloo go with him, right? We think. We think they do. We're not sure which two Vorlon are they are, I'm assuming. Or he goes back in time and he finds them in there, because that'd be a weird circle. Like, I went back in time with you. He goes back and he finds them way back then and convinces them to join him somehow. And then that's younger caution. Cosh to way back then.

[33:37] Regardless. Okay. Yeah. So has Sinclair explained to like, where does Cosh know that they're the one or does he know that they're the one? Like, did Sinclair ever tell caution the others? You are the one. You are the one who will the one who will be the one who is like.

[33:55] It's a retcon, but in The Gathering, he calls Sinclair and Tilza, which is the one. Right. But that's him noticing Sinclair from when he knew him as Valen way back when. So if he knew he was the one, if he knew he was the one, he probably has the whole, it's reasonable to believe he has the whole story. Right. So by the time that Kosh gets here, he understands that Dillon is the one. But I guess, so they met Sinclair slash Valen way back when. They came through, they came through, they came through. And just in the last two years, three years, have they met Dylan and Sheridan? I guess I could see this to go, hey, we've heard about these other two. I just need to make sure it's you. Like, it could be that. We just need to make sure it's you, too, because we've heard about you, too, for a thousand plus years. And we just met you like two years ago. That's a good point. I guess I could see that. Like, is it Dylan or is it Dylan Smith? Like, which one of the Delens is actually? Is it really you? Is it? Right. I just want to make sure. I just, cause I've kind of been operating on this assumption and I'm just, I think we're here. I still think I like my theory a little bit. I like your theory better where this is preparing her to be the one. I think I, this is a step in her journey. This is a step along the way. It also means I think that he knows Sheridan will get involved because if it's that thing too, if you are all truly this thing that I've been told and have been, you know, whatever he, I don't have to tell him he's going to get involved. He just is.

[35:20] Yeah, it's yeah, this is the thing that pulls them in. And I mean, do you think after this experience that Dylan didn't hop on the phone with Sinclair and have a conversation with Jeffrey? Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Because they are clearly in contact every once in a while, right? And like he's living on Mimbar. And there's nothing saying that he didn't go through an experience like this. Also true. Also true.

[35:44] So, I mean, some of this may even just be prophecy fulfilling itself. Like yeah what sinclair told him hey you're gonna do this eventually and man it's gonna i i really i want to see the next episode in the next step because i think that there's i there's i feel like there's got to be a noticeable difference for i still think this is more about the lynn and sheridan than it is about caution their question yeah so it makes me wonder too if if kosh knows this uh-huh he's known almost everything to this point when he killed death walker yeah he He knew stuff we didn't know. Right. Right. When Sinclair was like, you got to help the Centauri and Narn. They're going to destroy themselves. He's like, let them. Because he knew what was going to happen. There's a little like predestination, like prophecy fulfillment, essentially. Some of it like he's nudging towards. That's just an interesting way to look at all of the Kosh interactions we've seen so far. So Nia says over in the chat, I do think that prior to this inquisiting, D'Lynn didn't know that she would be willing to die, not for the cause, but simply for someone she cares about.

[36:49] This may be a question we need to save post-episode when we get to the final end. But let's actually do that. Let's save this. But I want to put it here. When we get to the end of why what is what did they learn at the end of this i want to ask us the question why did they need to learn that and if you're going to tell me jms answered that then awesome but why did they need to learn that um what what was it about that they needed to know so let's let's ask that question okay ambassador kosh is unsure about me you why on earth by aligning myself with you and with kosh i have placed myself in the center of the coming storm Kosh must be certain that my choice was correct and made for the right reasons. If you do the right thing for the wrong reasons, the work becomes corrupted, impure, and ultimately self-destructive. Brent, we had that whole conversation just a few weeks ago. Okay, so let's assume that this is why they need to know. And frankly, Dylent, maybe in this goes back to what Nia was just saying earlier.

[37:44] She need to know, not only would she die for the cause, but she would die just for the one. Because that one's important as well. And not just the one, but for a one. You know maybe that's it i do love this though because we had the conversation about sheridan being a hero but the choices he made and we debated whether the why of the choice mattered or not and here's lanier with the definitive jms response to that and whoever is coming here will help him decide if you're one of these right people how she is very unsure of her if there's anything that i can do like incredible she is questioning herself right now but i must do i must do alone that is wrong this of my own free will please do not interrupt like just being prompted with this question it has completely undercut her confidence in herself like not even the inquisition just the question i have is what is it possible it's this answer what did she just say to sheridan i have to do this for myself what what i must do i must now do alone i agreed to do this so this is on me to do this is effectively what she said jeff i always apologize when i make you pull out the little bleeper button but uh a bullshit.

[38:50] Like no you don't have to like that's the whole thing we live in communities yeah people build communities you don't have to do it alone you're not here to do it alone it is okay to have other people in it with you it's better when other people are in it with you so capture this this is part of the lesson so as we're tracking what is she learning yeah in this this is right at the top right like i mean i get the nobility of like no this is something i got to do for myself i I got to, I got to, no, you don't need to do it for yourself. Learn to be within the community and who you are that way. Yeah. Come on now. Do you want? It's a Vorlon transport. I didn't know ambassador caution left. He didn't. If I'm going to Sheridan, Sheridan here, captain, if I got something for you, it turns out it is for you. Yeah.

[39:45] I believe I am expected. I remember my first thought when I saw this. Yeah. Outside of just creepy English, dude. It's like, oh, it's Moriarty. But I was thinking the guy from Next Generation, not like literally Moriarty. What you were doing on a Vorlon transport. I would, actually. Aside from Babylon 5, I didn't know the Vorlons had any contact with humans. No, I'm sure you didn't. Where is Delenn? You know, I also just remember, Jeff, I do have a big problem with this episode. Okay. A big problem. this is the episode this episode set me up huge to believe that when another historical figure by the name of arthur comes on the station that he possibly could have been the real one and i'm still okay that it wasn't i just don't really really don't like how they handled the rest of the episode but whatever but it's this episode's fault man it is i agree look at this picture right here of uh sebastian uh acknowledging that wayne alexander is not british uh he's he's an american dude i'm gonna say to my whovians out there could you imagine like what a great villain for doctor like a great master maybe like that whole look he looks so young too like i don't remember him looking so young i'll send for when we're finished nothing changed.

[41:03] Corruption dr franklin immorality chaos when were you last on earth long ago was that weird that we were just like focused on that one woman you're asking about that shot that lingering shot of that girl walking across the station um uh nia points out over in the chat that the idea of jack the ripper was that he went after immoral women so watching him watch this woman walk across with whatever presumptions we may make about just based on her look alone kind of actually fits character a little bit i don't know if that's real or not i don't know if that's i'm not saying me as me as wrong i'm just saying i don't know that that's what they were intending by that particular shot of that particular look but i'd say it's at least plausible possible i'll prompt up what jms said that part of sebastian's thing is he hates being called jack it's not who he is it's not his name it's a persona created by history and so yeah it could totally be that also like he's not jack but was but was with sebastian was he whatever he did with whatever happened whatever he really was in history was that directed at immoral women because clearly clearly the concept was he was he was he was killing prostitutes and you know.

[42:14] I i think it's important to state that like jms i don't know i wouldn't know if i would use the word i would not use the word obsessed but very very interested and focused on the deep history of jack the ripper so in the uh in the script books that kind of go into some detail i mean there are multiple pages of him talking about well this letter and this newspaper article said this and there.

[42:37] Was this guy who then carried through who moved to this place and this like he's deep into the conspiracy of who jack the ripper is oh the conspiracy theorist.

[42:45] Jms now uh-huh yeah is what we're talking about you know it does occur to me though if this is the case is this perhaps some sleight of hand way of kosh calling to lynn a ho.

[42:58] Wow. Going, are you an immoral person? Are you lying to everybody? Is this all about you or is this about the greater – like what would be the greater implication of potentially what he – why bring this particular person to test and see if you're really a witch or not? Although he explains why because he knows that he – who he is and who he is is not who he's been labeled. So he's obsessed with that and he's going to bring that to who are you. You know, there's another great person, not necessarily from history, but certainly from fiction that has that same thing. Yeah. A lady by the name of Elphaba Throp. Ooh. Who her label was, was not necessarily what she was in reality. Exactly. One you've been waiting for is here. I'm going to write that fanfic. Elphaba Throp comes to the station. He's waiting for you now in grade 19. She didn't notice the longer elevator ride? Are you sure you want to go through with this? I've just spent some time with him. I don't like what I see. I'm sure it will be fine, Captain. It's interesting they're having this whole conversation we didn't see on screen as a voiceover while she's walking to this. It's like that's where she's existing right now. In the warning. Also, cool way to like do two scenes literally at the same time, right?

[44:18] Masterful lighting right here. There's the shot composition here. I mean, nominated for it. Look at that. Dude, great use of haze. And that's like the gray council. Sure.

[44:29] There you go. Good call on that, Jeffrey.

[44:34] How many shades of gray are we talking about here, sir? You can remove them at any time, but if you do so, you admit failure and defeat, and will stand before the Vorlon as inadequate for the task ahead. Who are you? I, uh... I'm the seventh son of the seventh son. for Minbar. Unacceptable. That is only your title. What other people call you when you choose to hide behind formalities. Who are you? I, uh, I'm the daughter of... Unacceptable. See, this isn't quizzing. This is teaching. He's teaching her who she is. Unable to answer even such a simple question. This is an intense be-do-have. Without falling back on references and genealogies and what other people call you. Have you nothing of your own? Nothing to stand on that is not provided, defined, delineated, stamped, sanctioned, numbered, and approved by others? How can you be expected to fight for someone else when you haven't the fairest idea? Who you are? Wow. Do you know how many.

[45:44] It really makes me question, and I think I know the answer to this, but how many of us truly know who we are? It's a real thing because particularly in our society, Jeff, and I don't want to speak for the entire world, but I dare say this is more of a human issue than it is a particular nationality issue, right? Right. But so often we define ourselves through our jobs, through our paychecks, through our titles, through our roles within our families, through all of these other external factors, but not within ourselves, not within finding ourselves. And I've told the story many times on the show before, but that was a journey I had to go on and it took me a decade to get there. Before I could really finally be good with me and who I am and what I do and not meeting some expectation, including my own, that is set upon me, but that I could just rest in who I am, not what I do, not what my title is, not what my paycheck is, not what any of that is. I can just rest in me. And can I just tell you how freeing it is to just live as me? To just be. You know what I mean? Like there's such wisdom in the title for us of human being. We're not a human doing. We're not a human having. We're a being. It's just –.

[47:11] Be right and paul points out you know this is how we typically are remembered think of what people put on their gravestones here is my military rank here is my job here is my beloved mother husband father whatever you know um that's how we describe that's how we describe the dash exactly yeah you know what i mean was this the episode you talked about that i don't know the first time no it was not okay it's not oh yeah it was with what's when we meet wayne alexander again as laurian probably probably and for those of you don't know we talk about the dash on your gravestone like there's the year you're born there's the year you die but your life is that dash well so what are you doing with your dash right like um that's what jeff is referencing there but um yeah what what is it on you know what what if your tombstone literally just said jeff aiken and that's all it needed to say that's it that's everything that you are it's just you're just jeff aiken yeah you know she's just i love his i love his line again i think this plays so again this is not a testing this is a teaching he's how he's telling her tell tell me who you are she didn't he's not letting her the thing is he's not letting her fail right he's educating her here he's getting her to a spot it's not this it's not this don't tell me this uh-huh that's the wrong answer now i'm going to do this through pain i'm going to torture you which is not necessarily the best way to do it that's a very shadow thing to do.

[48:28] That's the mirror right how can you be expected to fight for someone else when you don't know who you are again let's think of season four episodes one through six oh oh oh my god jeff think about when sheridan is gone late season four yes and delin has to go fight for sheridan, And she has to get Jakar and Londo and all these people to come together because it's not Sheridan who forms the Interstellar Alliance. It's D'Lynn. It is D'Lynn. Now, I don't know what things and we don't really know what conversations Sheridan and D'Lynn had behind the scenes. But D'Lynn is the one who executed all that stuff without Sheridan there. And here's D'Lynn fighting for Sheridan and Sheridan's dream and Sheridan's vision. right? Like, like, uh, or maybe not even Sheridan's dream revision. It's just their dream, their vision, whatever it is, but she's fighting. I mean, my God, like, and could she have done that without being able to answer this question? Let's watch special favored of God. Oh, and Paul points out Kosh trained Sheridan how to kill legends. He's training to learn here others, the illusion.

[49:48] You have the audacity to presume that you are on a mission from god embarked upon a holy cause i don't believe so here he is calling her out for inserting herself into the prophecy this is her having to pay the price for that like james was talking about earlier if you believe you are the chosen then you must risk everything on the premise that the universe will not let you done he's just calling her out and she knows it you see that on her face she understands that, we will find out once and for all it's an interesting idea if you think you're the chosen one that you're going to do all this great stuff then you have to believe on some level that no matter what i do to you today you are not going to die the universe is not going to kill you and let you die because you're this chosen one who's supposed to do all this stuff so i can sit here and literally do anything and everything I could to you. You're not going to die. Oh, do I want to go here? Give me a yes or no, Jeff. Yeah, because I think you might be going to where I'm going also. No, I'm not. Okay. Not at all. Not at all.

[50:56] I'm going to turn to the Old Testament, the Jewish scriptures. I think we're going to the same place actually.

[51:04] I'm looking specifically to the story of Abraham when he has his son, Isaac. And, uh, he has been told, Abram has been told through, through this, you will make you many nations, many, many nations. Right. And later he's told, take them up on the mountain. And sacrifice him and abraham said and people like how could you ever ask that there's lots of things that go into that i don't want to go into all that part right now that's not the point of this but what i find interesting about that story whether you believe it's true or whether you believe it's allegorical or just whatever doesn't matter the point still stays the same abraham says to the servants who are waiting at the bottom of the mountain we will go up and we will come back down talking about him and him and his son he knows he's going to go up and he's going to quote unquote sacrifice him. On some level, Abraham must, and I've said this for a long time, he must have known that, or at least believed, had such faith that this kid, this was not going to be it for the kid. He could go up there and do whatever to the kid, but this kid is still going to survive and still going to live. And so he could go forward with that. Again, I'm not saying that any of that was real. If you believe it, great. If you don't, no skin off my back. But But that whole idea of if you think you're the chosen one, then no matter what's about to happen to you, you just walk through fire. You'll be just fine on the other end. That might hurt, but you're going to be fine on the other end. You're going to make it. Oh, man. Mm-hmm.

[52:31] Was that what you were going to say? It was exactly the story. Are you serious? Yep, exactly. Dude, you and I. It's the same thing. Look at you and me. But to pivot a little bit, I want to highlight Mira Furlan and the arc that she just went through. Okay. Walking through that door, being trepidatious, afraid, hearing the cane, having Sebastian just come at her. She's confused. She's scared. She's unsettled. But as he continues and she starts to get shocked or whatever, she ends up to where she is now, where she is steeled in her resolve. She is looking him right in the eye and staring at him. I think that's subtle. It's just little. It's her face. It's just her face that has changed. And it's so powerful. What you were saying earlier, how this is an episode that is full of subtleties and shots and looks and stuff like that. So I love that you're picking up on that. It's such a trope in wrestling but oh my gosh there was someone here the whole time this scene oh I remember this scene oh the elevator yeah yeah yeah, dead dead dead, the silence oh my god it's so powerful.

[53:51] I'm sorry. Oh, man. I wish. So you and I had a big conversation in our original talk about what does he mean by I'm sorry? Is he actually apologizing? Like, what's he apologizing for? Who's he apologizing for? What did, what's Veer got going on? Or is he just showing empathy? And this is how, this is the generic way of showing empathy. Like, man, I'm really sorry you're going through this. I'm sorry this is happening. It's not my fault. I didn't do anything about it, but I'm showing empathy for you. What does Veer mean here? And then is Jakar's response appropriate? And what does even Jakar's response really mean to Veer, who clearly had nothing to do with it? Right. So let's watch this and I want to talk about that. Yeah. There was something that I could do. I tried telling them, but they wouldn't listen. They never listen. I'm sorry.

[54:47] Can you imagine being on the next floor down waiting for this elevator that he's just hanging on to dead dead dead dead dead dead dead dead dead dead dead how do you apologize to them i can't then i cannot forgive and now you juxtapose that with a quote that you quote all the time, Mr. Aiken, my people can never forgive yours, but I can forgive you. Yeah. Wow.

[55:22] All right, so what do you think, Jeff? So I think that Veer is very brave. I want to start with that. Regardless of what it is, the courage that he showed here is off the charts. It would have made sense for him to walk up close to the door, just wait for that thing to go and scurry off. I think that's what any lesser person would do. But Veer didn't. He chose to say a thing, and this is my read on it. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he was just being showing empathy or if he was actually apologizing for his people or if he was apologizing for his inability to stop it despite being right next to the people that made it happen. I don't know that it matters. I think what counts is that he said something and Jakar's response.

[56:01] How else could he have, there are two other ways he could have responded, ignoring him completely and just walking out or stabbing him in the throat. Can I give you another idea? Because it's kind of what I would take out of this. Hey, drip, drip, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. Can you apologize to any of those people? No, why not? Because it's too late for them. There's a whole lot of other Narns that aren't dead yet.

[56:26] Do something. This lights the fire. Do something. Don't just sit there and be sorry. You can't I can't forgive you don't be sorry do I tell my kids go and they screw up all the time like oh dad I'm so sorry for that I'm like don't be sorry no stop being sorry yeah I don't I don't need you to be sorry I need you to not do this again or I need you to be better like go do something there are still others out there go do something make sure they don't join the drips I don't know that that's what your car was actually trying to say maybe it was maybe it wasn't I think your car is just super pissed yeah you know um and and there's a piece of me that wants to say inappropriately so right well i think there's a couple things here i think um do you know how long it's been since the long twilight struggle like in time for them like two weeks like two weeks to a month like it's not far because this is all supposed to be happening within the confines of the year each season right i think because like it's a thing where if this was within a couple of days yeah then yeah like it would be unreasonable for to expect jacquard to verbalize anything outside of hurt and fury. But if it's been like a few weeks or something, I think it would be reasonable for him to be like, dead, dead, dead. Can you apologize? No, then stand up and do a thing. I think it would have been, and it would have been more Jakar. Well, I don't know about that. It would have been more season five Jakar. He's not there yet. Yeah, yeah.

[57:44] And here's the thing. Jakar may have meant screw off. There's nothing I can do for you. I don't, I don't want to hear this. Veer could have taken that as a call to action though. Exactly. Ben. And they ask, is this the moment that Abraham Olin Coney was born? Yep. I think so. Ben says this in the chat. Like I, Ben, I'm going with that. Yep. This is the moment that, that the whole thing starts for Veer. You can, I mean, I'm going to pretend I want to just like in my face, on his face, I want to say, there's no fear. There's no anger in, in Veer's face. There's compassion. And I am going to read behind his eyes, a drive to do something. I have to do something about this. Yeah. Because what you've just explored is Veer is not a coward. Exactly. He did this. Veer stands up. He acknowledges what's going on. He acknowledged it. He doesn't just let the awkwardness be, you know, I want to point out what Kapturina says in the chat also, like to our usual point, it's not like a great sit down conversation, but they are talking. Yeah. And that's something. That matters. It certainly matters. Why are you here now, in this place, in this life? I was meant to be here. Meant? Yes. By whom? I don't know. Then how can you be sure? I don't know. No, you don't. It doesn't matter. What do you mean? If I believe I'm here now for a reason. And if the world says otherwise. Then the world is wrong. And Dallin is right. The world is right and Dallin is wrong. Have you ever considered that? Have you?

[59:12] This is great. This is such a great question here because Dylan is just operating on this idea of that. And this is this is an idea. I have problems with this whole Bambari following the calling of my heart thing. OK. All right. Because that's that's what I take. She's talking about here, which, by the way, is a first time watcher. We would never have those words. OK. I'm following the calling of my heart. I'm just going to do this thing. Well, why? Well, it doesn't matter because I believe that it's right. Well, what if you're wrong? Have you ever – and she's like, yeah, actually, that's my inner fear is that I'm wrong. My inner fear is that I'm not right. What – we need to see if you're the right person in the right place at the right time. Is it really you? Again, this is about Dillon. This isn't about Kosh. But he's forcing her to ask that question, which again goes back to who are you? Strip all that away. Strip what the universe is telling me to be and what the world is telling me to be and what my people are telling me to be. What did she say we are taught that we are nothing or something like that she just said a few moments ago meaning Mimbari's Mimbari people Mimbari society we are less than whatever strip all that away who are you at the core of you not what everybody else is putting on you but who are you you need to know that if you're about to do what you're supposed to be doing what's coming sometimes she doubts herself then there may yet be.

[1:00:37] There's hope. She sees herself. Yeah. As a reward, I allow you 10 minutes rest. Time for a job. I want to echo what Ben just said over here in the chat. It's not that there's not valid points to this. It's just torture is never an okay way to go about it. Yes. All of the, yes, Ben. Yeah. Let's not, despite what he's talking about, let's not condone the method through which this guy is acting. Okay. Although, counterpoint, for the sake of counterpoint, how else would they have done this? In this amount of time, how else would they achieve the same goal? Fair. Also, but especially if one of your goals is to show that the Vorlons are kind of shady. You know? I think about things like Boot Camp, for example. There's a show on Netflix recently called Boots, or yeah, called Boots.

[1:01:23] Based on a book called The Pink Marine. I recommend. It's a pretty accurate depiction of Boot Camp with a lot of TV drama added onto it. But watching that brought back a lot for me going through boot camp. I went through Navy boot camp. That is not Marine boot camp. Very different thing. Like I went to a classroom for a lot of my boot camp. But the idea of breaking someone down to rebuild them, it would be great. I hope we find a way sometime that's not this or psychologically torturing in some way or whatever. I don't know what that is yet. So I don't know. I do want to make a Jeff point here. It's very kind of Sebastian to give her a 10-minute break. That's great. Where's she going to use the bathroom? It's a big empty room there. Something to think about. I would just settle for a drink of water right now. And we are in the process of developing an underground communications net to home world. Do you know what your problem is, Delenn? You are a piece of the machine that thinks it is the whole of the machine. Oh, wow. That believes itself the symphony. You have malfunctioned. Admit it. And you will feel better. Your only destiny is to be the nail that gets hammered down. Bang, bang, bang.

[1:02:35] You're being a fool then i am a fool but it's better to be what i am than what you are and so that line right there encompasses now i i'm gonna go in and watch this an unbiased way but the first time i watched it it's this line that gave me issue with how delenn responded to this no no uh so she he says you know you're being a fool and she says then i am a fool here we are actually getting to who you are now she's not actually a fool right but like sebastian should be driving on this but what she doesn't do is engage in that what she does is she says i know you are but what am i oh i'm this what it's better than me when you are like it's it's just so juvenile to like take the whole thing and say well you're getting about me what about you no that's i feel like anyone in this position would know that's not gonna help at all you're not even really i'm not sure because the thing i don't know that dylan know like she's not getting the message yet she hasn't learned the lesson yet she's not getting it right so this is her only defense right now because she's still trying to defend she's trying to defend herself she has not come to the spot where this isn't just all about her i love what he was just saying though you believe that this is all about you you think you're the flute and you're the entire you're the flute and you think you're the entire symphony you think that you which by the way what did she say to sheridan we said but we talked about this earlier i have to go do this alone i have to be the one to do this all.

[1:04:05] By myself i'm the whole thing you're not the whole thing honey.

[1:04:09] You are part of a big, you are one part of a bigger cog, which, Hey, by the way, maybe that made it easier for her to become the little side piece later on. Like that. It wasn't all about her, that there was, that this is about a group where we all have a part to play and I don't have to do all of the parts myself.

[1:04:30] Would, would you call Dylan a skilled diplomat based on what we know about her from now all the way to the end or based on where she is right now, right now journey. Where she is right now no i agree based on her behavior right here because if she was a skilled diplomat she wouldn't be taking this approach whenever is it effective to right ben says it in the chat i'm rubber you're glue what you say bounces off me and sticks to you like she's that is literally the approach she's taking and she's the ambassador the diplomat from the minbari i think this is where i had a hard time with the whole thing she is better than this but i don't know that she is understanding this role as an ambassadorial role at this point this is personal to her i'm not talking about again this is all about her yeah but that's not the point i'm making what i'm saying is as an ambassador as a diplomat you learn interpersonal and communication skills you know that when you're in conflict she's not done that jeff she's not had that class you know why because she's de mf and de lynn de mf and lynn whatever yeah you know what i mean like she's Dillon, she can just do Dillon can do Dillon is awesome. She can just do as Sebastian is saying, because the universe is on her side and the universe is on that.

[1:05:46] And I, and I would, I would submit to you just even right now because she goes through this Dillon becomes the best version of Dillon she could ever possibly be with, I mean, she becomes that Dillon that goes.

[1:06:00] You know, you're in front of me and he's behind me. If you value your life, be somewhere else. Like she becomes that one. She becomes the one who really does rally everybody to start the Interstellar Alliance and saves her husband, saves the one that she loves. Yeah. You know?

[1:06:18] And Dylan becomes somebody who is so admirable that you and I know somebody who actually took that name. Right. Yeah. And wears it with pride. And they should. So here's how I'm going to watch this moving forward. Yeah. How she is behaving right now is just proving Sebastian's point. It's like part of the process. I think that's the point, though. But that is the point. Exactly. Yes. Yes. I think, yes, I don't disagree with you. That's the point. Let's watch and see where she goes from here. I want you to listen to this one more time. She says to him, and I want to ask you a question afterwards. Okay. Please tell me. You are a creature who has received pain and given pain and taken too much joy in its application. You've aspired to dreams and been disappointed because you are not strong enough or worthy enough or right enough. So you lash out at anyone who believes they can make a difference. Is she talking about Sebastian or herself? Can you play it one more time? Because I think it's a great question. I want to make sure I give it a thoughtful answer. Also, there are some parts of it that are absolutely about Sebastian and not her. Sure. But overall. You have aspired to dreams and basically didn't meet your dream because you weren't worthy enough, right enough, or she said one more, strong enough or something like that, right? So here's the thing. Sebastian has lived his life, right? Like whatever this thing is he's doing right now is not life. Right. Okay.

[1:07:38] He's lived his life. He's had his chance. Perhaps Dillon's not wrong about him. He did have all these things and he didn't do it. Dillon's still alive though. The book's not closed on her. She could still do. It's like there's a piece of me that like she can't be talking about necessarily herself. What she could be talking about, though, and maybe she doesn't even realize it in this moment, is who she could be if she goes down the same path that he's going down. If she holds these dreams that she thinks she's going to get to simply because she's worthy or because she's right. But what happens when that fails? As he said in a couple scenes ago, have you ever thought maybe you're wrong? Right. So what's going to happen to is she going to wind up just like him? If she's wrong and she doesn't get to those dreams. I think she is talking about Sebastian here, but what she may or may not realize in this moment is she's also talking about her potential future self. Does that make sense? It does, and I can see that. What I'm seeing is this is the point at which she begins to break. Like she's starting to break in turn. Yeah, she there's a combination of her describing Sebastian, but actually talking about who she is, like she's starting to see who she is in the reflection of Sebastian. A lot of what she says and will say is clearly about Sebastian, right? Given pain, received pain, taken joy in it. That's a Sebastian thing. That's not a Dylan thing, right?

[1:09:01] This piece coming up is a Sebastian thing. but i think like this is it's starting the work of sebastian is starting to show and she's starting to starting to see it right here which doesn't know that so she's projecting it all onto him and here's the thing sebastian can take that he doesn't care yeah you know what i mean he can hold it and he can be like yeah that's exactly and look at what you possibly could become or look at what all of this is this is why i can reflect back to you and take that and keep going down his little because because sebastian not jack the ripper sebastian is strong enough to have somebody think these thoughts about him and it doesn't destroy who he knows about himself who he is and who he is right right so you lash out at anyone who believes they can make a difference now sebastian reminds you of your own failure you have to prove they're just as bad just as flawed as you are yeah she doesn't lash out at people that's not a thing she does well no i was gonna say is this still actually dylan though does dylan in her own way does she lash out at people i mean dylan gets pissed off at folk yeah right dylan still feels guilt over the whole earth minbari war because she still thinks it was her fault that the whole thing happened because she was the deciding vote is there a journey that dylan goes on here that doesn't culminate until she gets to atonement maybe right and sees the whole picture through the new lens that she's developing here just saying who are you?

[1:10:28] I'm Dylan and you have a destiny yes no, be a nice man body conform.

[1:10:37] Admit you are inadequate i can feel your heart delen i can hold it here in my hand i can close my fist around it you'll feel your heart delen feel it slowing i think this is why he's pushing her over the line here i love it yep like he he sees her right there and he goes okay let's push harder give in to let do it do it do it and she's just she's digging down no it's not no it's not this is oh it seems so evil right right but and here's the thing yes it seems so evil but it's working yeah it sucks and all is never okay exactly it's not right and it's working, which which i'm gonna categorically this is evil what he's doing here is evil categorically what the shadows do are evil i don't know that what the vorlons do is evil might not be right but i don't know that it's evil she's saying please you have to go quickly not without you if i leave i will have failed you in caution i will have failed everyone if you care for me you can't let that happen please go she's still putting everything on herself at this point captain sheridan defy kosh you're the only one who can you're the only one he'll listen to why what's it's ambassadors.

[1:12:00] The Inquisitor. I think he's killing her. Interesting that Lanier goes to share it in there, considering where that relationship leads to. Hey, here's a question. Did Dylan go through this process and build up a tolerance for pain or whatever, that when she steps into that wheel of fire or whatever it is, that that's what allowed her to live? That's the whole point of this whole thing. It just gave her enough. Gives her enough to reform Memories of Zaid.

[1:12:30] I'm afraid this isn't going to work out for you, Delenn. It's not really your fault. Your fate was dictated long ago. It's all in the hands of others. That's the lie, right? From the moment of your birth. In fact, I think he's starting to see that it probably is going to work out for her. So, paint the other picture. And the final play of an orbital drama arrives at last. Leave her alone. Why? Just do it! What is she to you? I don't have to answer your questions. No, you don't.

[1:13:03] Ow your turn now, they are doing a good job of doing that moral ambiguity of the borlon right here like right yikes you said you didn't have to answer any of my questions but there's no reason to exclude you from our deliberation how much are you prepared to risk how many people are you prepared to sacrifice for victory are you willing to die friendless alone deserted by everyone because that's what may be required of you in the war that is to come is he talking about the earth civil war i don't know but i want to hear this again yeah that's not the look of somebody who's surprised oh he's that's not the look of somebody who is not expecting this to happen right.

[1:13:48] Finally it's here and he even says it here we go ready for the final act in our play right and the final player and our little drama arrives at last in our little drama, it's all game hey hey hey seb we need you come over here and you're going to play this part like you're giving her a test but really we need you to be teaching and somewhere in the end this draw this this fake thing you're doing this guy's coming again because you had to teach him too but He's going to be a little easier to crack than she is. So he only needs about 10 minutes. She needs like the rest of the 40. Quite a while. Yeah. He left her lane for Lanier to fight. That was okay. We're ready for the next phase. Let's lay out the bait. Yeah.

[1:14:28] What is she to you? Wow, Jeff. I'm so sorry. I got, I got, good Lord. Tell the listeners out there. It was a start and stop. But, but Katarina asks a fantastic question. What does it mean in the context of Dylan's relationship with both Lanier and Sheridan? What are their actions here? Lanier runs for help. Sheridan rushes to her to help the one thing i will put in lanier's defense is delin specifically told him to gtfo get out of here yeah also also what did lanier say he said you got to go to kosh because you're the only one kosh will listen to apparently sheridan didn't listen and he just went straight to yeah which says so much one about sheridan and two what delin means to he's not he's not ready to answer that question but he is through his actions yeah and deb asked does sebastian know that they are the ones um i would suggest he does and he knows the point he has to get them to or if he doesn't he has at least been formed by the vorlon um we need them to know xyz.

[1:15:30] Maybe not necessarily having given them all the information but my guess is they've clued him in and this because when he like certifies them ready to go like i think he he has to understand that so i think so deb that's my thought are you willing to die friendless alone deserted by everyone because that's what may be required of you in the war that is to come.

[1:15:50] Go to hell are you willing to die jeff oh my god what'd he say are you willing to die friendless something something and alone if you go to zaha doom you will die he goes to zaha doom alone because that may be what's required of you and he is there alone his wife is that's not his wife right yeah no he has no friends they're by himself and that is required of him for this whole thing and he becomes his friend yeah but wasn't from default right like lorianne was there basically to be like you're done you don't have something you know to hold on to but which i just want to point out the vorlons would not have known that part because the whole war without anything happens prior to that piece happening but sebastian's not wrong when he says that this may be what's required of you yeah and i think it's it could be required of him in both this and the earth stuff coming he has to sacrifice people he loses friends and he may have to die that way because it's him versus clark and katerina points out taking off the uniform looks very symbolic symbolic stripping him of his position and his ranks which again to delen it's the what he is not the who he is and what is he to you none.

[1:17:05] Of your concern don't listen to him delen just get the hell out of here now go on one hell out of my gray sector a gesture and his life is snuffed out or yours you would trade your life for his i thought you had a destiny is that destiny not worth one life if i fall another will take my place and another and another but you are great cause this is my cause life one life or a billion it's all the same wow then you make the sacrifice willingly.

[1:17:40] No fame, no armies or banners or cities to celebrate your name. You will die alone and unremarked and forgotten. This body is only a shell. You cannot touch me. You cannot harm me. I'm not afraid he has reformed he has shown her who she is this isn't who delen believed she was when this started she was delen i have a destiny if you are so important to the universe you're chosen then nothing can happen to you do all the stuff let it happen and she's pushes back and she's like i am delen i am delen through all of this to this moment where she's like my body is a shell there's someone else behind me and someone behind them and someone behind them She understands now, and I believe she always knew this, but now she sees it. It's not about her. It is about something bigger and greater. And she's so passionate.

[1:18:39] All of the passion she had in her role in the prophecy is now here. And this is authentic, and this is real. And so she's strong, and she's powerful. And Sebastian. So I'm sorry, it's not about the prophecy. It's not about being chosen. Nope. Because who are you chosen by? Yeah. Who did the choosing? It's not about being chosen. It's, oh, Jeff, there it is right there. It's not about being chosen. It's just about being the one. Being the one. Yeah. You don't have to be chosen. You can be the one without being chosen.

[1:19:13] You're not going to succeed at this simply because you were chosen to do this. You're not going to live through this because you're chosen by the universe. And now, no matter what I do to you, you're still going to live. that's dumb you could die with what i'm doing to you here you just need to be the one and what's interesting about being the one is there are multiple the ones any right anyone maybe could be the one right if they step up and see what delen has now truly seen you but you and i have had this conversation before why was it delen had to be the one to go through the chrysalis it could have been anybody yeah right it was her because she just simply went i'm gonna do it she chose herself, choose yourself. You don't have to wait to be chosen. You're not going to do this because you have some divine choosing. You don't choose yourself and you go do it do the thing that is required of the one like go do it yeah you and i say all the time hey stop waiting on somebody else to make the podcast you want to listen to go make that podcast right yeah do it go do it go do it you know uh you know and they're saying because she stop putting your faith in the prophecy put your faith in yourself bingo that you can do it right she had completely tied herself to that prophecy i exist i have value i am delen because i'm tied to the prophecy right now i am delen i am these things because i am part of this and i believe because i can do this and i because i'm in this yeah i'm here.

[1:20:41] Yep he's like you're good and boom done just like that's what you needed that's the lesson you needed to learn are you all right and what a big deal their first response is to hug each other not are you okay but hey by the way with with with delin does that not free her of mimbari's society in some ways it frees her from so much society expectation all of it does it free sheridan from i mean again you and i posited this is actually supposed to be teaching sheridan and delin maybe not maybe this really just was delin at this point at this point in the episode so i think only delin has learned anything yeah you don't think she's learned anything no i think she's she's the one who has i don't know that she's the only one who has learned yeah sheridan has i don't know that share i don't know that sheridan had it yeah i'm not entirely sure, no greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother not for millions not for glory not for fame for one person in the dark where no one will ever know or see when the darkness comes.

[1:21:48] Know this, you are the right people, in the right place, at the right time. What are some of the absolutely nutso things that these two people do in the darkness to help? Sheridan goes to Zaha Doom. I don't know. What's the something of light and dark? Like, there's a whole episode title of that. It was like right after the whole Severed Dreams thing. Yeah, right, yeah. You know?

[1:22:13] No, there's so much. There's so much that happens in the dark, right? When the darkness comes, you are the right people in the right place at the right time. Knowing that? It's your superhero. But here's the thing. If Dillon is taking the lesson that we say she's taking out of this, then she doesn't even need to know that because she already knows it. She doesn't need him to say it. She just knows it about herself. Whether I'm the right person or not, I'm the person who's here. Uh-huh, yeah. So that makes me the right person. And the right person, it could be the person who has to get wiped off the board unceremoniously for something else to happen. But it needed to be that person. You know, and Ben says over here in the chat, and kind of taking a different stance than I am on this, and that's totally cool. He's like, I'm 100% convinced that she would see it or believe it when it mattered whether she had this inquisition or not. Does she really need to go through this in order to get to that spot to do what she had? Maybe not, but this is how she got there. Yeah. You know what I mean? And the thing is, is we don't know what the story would have been like without it had she not gone through this spot. If you take this out of the story, would the story have continued to where it went to where it got to? Maybe. I mean, that's a question for JMS.

[1:23:25] Conceivably, you take this out and this doesn't actually make a difference in the rest of the story, assuming the rest of the story goes the same. But how much of this changed the way that they behaved, the way they interacted? And the fact is we just don't know. It's kind of like saying, hey, in a football game, if you would have just made this one tackle in that one play in the second quarter, well, yeah, but if you make that tackle in one play, that changes everything else. Like, that's the domino effect. So we don't know. We don't know. But could she or would she have gotten to that spot she needed to be without this? Yes, but it would have just been some other way. This is the way that it wound up being. Yeah. Is I think would be my response to Ben on that. So anyway, let's finish this up. I want to bring up one other thing from our council chambers chat that I think sums this up personally with what we hear. I definitely find this unnecessary, except to make us ask uncomfortable questions about the Vorlons. JMS said that was the point of this episode, was to gray up the Vorlons. So, per Becky, mission accomplished. Like, it worked. Yeah. And that, I mean, that goes back to what Ben was saying. Like, had this never happened, would she have still gotten there? Probably, I guess, based on that alone, if the whole point here is to gray up the Vorlons and not actually having anything to do with the Lynn, then sure. I'm going to put more into his story than that, though. So like there is a point to all this because, and I do think even if there's not a point to the story here for Dylan, there is a point for all of us on this.

[1:24:48] Also torture is bad all the time. It is. And it's not justified ever. Ever. And we are saying, hey, it's working. That doesn't justify it. I want to be very clear about that. It's about bootcamp. It works. It shouldn't have to happen that way. The records also indicate that you vanished suddenly without a trace on November 11th.

[1:25:09] A very interesting date mr sebastian morning after the last of a string of murders on the east end okay here's the last thing i have is a note from jms and i i sigh because i'm like i don't i couldn't care less about this i could not possibly care less but a lot of people seem to care so i will read it it got fixed but we swapped east and west end what happened is basically joe was a moron i did my research i called up the info on the encyclopedia got all the dates right and my eyes saw east end and for whatever stupid idiotic reason my fingers typed west instead of east so i content myself with the notion that it's west of babylon 5 the city was drowning in decay a message needed to be sent etched in blood for all the world to see a warning in the pursuit of my holy cause this justifies what nia was saying earlier about showing that woman down in zocalo terrible things unspeakable things the world condemned me but it didn't matter because i believed i was right and the world was wrong i believed i was the divine messenger i believed i was chosen i was found by the vorlons they showed me the terrible depth of my mistake he experienced the exact same thing that delin experienced like this is a process for the vorlons that they teach and repeat over and over.

[1:26:34] That pain in his voice right there, he's like, they showed me the thing. Because he is what he said Delenn was, his total continuity of their place. But he is permanently scarred from what they did to him.

[1:26:47] And maybe because he's had to repeat it. My crimes, my presumption. I wonder who did it to him. I have done 400 years of penance in this. A job for which they said I was ideally suited. now perhaps they will finally let me die i think that might be wise.

[1:27:09] Good luck to you in your holy cause, Captain Sheridan. May your choices have better results than mine. Remembered not as a messenger. Remembered not as a reformer. Not as a prophet. Not as a hero. Not even as Sebastian. Be funny if Sheridan was gone. He's just talking to himself. Remembered only. He kind of is. As Jack. Jeff can two things coexist yes can two diametrically opposed things coexist absolutely yes is it possible all right because there's there's a chat going on in our council chambers and i want to acknowledge it because it's a it's a worthy chat and it's a good chat, is it possible to absolutely condemn the use of torture and say it's not okay and it's not justified ever and at the same time acknowledge that there is a lesson that was learned here.

[1:28:17] That it's we could debate whether or not that lesson could be learned another way i don't think that's actually germane to this conversation but just the idea that this is the way the lesson was learned and still condemn the method through which it was taught you absolutely But allow that message to be valuable and be integral to the character growth and development. Is that possible? It is very possible. I would add this, though, and I think they may have given us the cipher to this earlier in the episode. If you do the right thing for the wrong reason, it corrupts the thing. So if you get to the right outcome the wrong way, it corrupts the way at a minimum.

[1:29:01] What I'm saying is the way in which they did this was wrong, horrible, corrupted. Where they got is where they needed to go. So it is yes and. It does show us i mean because it's a legit thing why would the vorlon who are such a good people who pride themselves on this idea of order and and poetry and whatever pull in somebody who's going to use basically the shadows methods yeah right okay also you can't you you you can't look at me and then say that what the shadow are doing is not really that different from what the vorlon are doing because it clearly that's not okay yeah what the vorlon are doing right like well i think like you know you've been very adamant and that you see the boron is the good guys and the shadows is the bad guys but i think what this episode ultimately did was it had we've had them like this and for people on our audio podcast like i'm holding up the two hands um it just venn diagram i get overlapped a little bit where it's like hey yeah there's there's some commonalities here that you would not have known of known about to this point right i mean i think about um but we're talk about there at the end where, you know, my assumption from what Sebastian just talked about was that he went through the exact same process Dylan went and is now repeating it, which would tell me that someone else did it to him who also had to repeat it. And so like, there's this cycle of Vorlon's destroying people to go find the one. That's awful.

[1:30:31] It's great. They found the one. That's awesome. That's great. How they've done it for centuries.

[1:30:36] Horrible. Reprehensible. yeah yeah yeah and and and.

[1:30:42] I don't think that necessarily means that the Vorlons are the good guys. Then it'd be really hard to say that, you know? Um, and if that means that I'm changing my tone on the Vorlons after this, then fine. You're supposed to, that's the point of the episode. Right. Um, I would say as an overall, I, I don't know that it makes you, I think this might be where, where, where I was bulking because the idea that a civilization, would try to help a lesser developed civilization come along is not bad in and of itself to help them come along because you're trying to like we always compare it to the overbearing parent and the one who's trying to control everything and all this kind of stuff trying to help the civilizations come along is not bad right and if you're going to help a civilization come along between choice with the choice between culture and conflict culture is the way to do it right, Right. I'm going to help you develop your culture. The reasons why we can certainly debate those, but this is the, this is the way to do it. What the Vorlons did was they just compromise themselves, you know, and we see that continue from this point forward. And they will compromise themselves.

[1:32:01] I like what Texas says in the chat he doesn't say this but it's what I'm reading it's not about good or evil this is the first hint that the Vorlons are just as much a part of the problem as the shadows it's not good or evil it's the problem, Yeah. And I mean, you know, and it's less in what we know ultimately is it's not about helping other civilizations come along. It's about them just proving who's right over the other one. It's really between them and everybody else's fodder. That's wrong. Exactly. Yes. But on the surface, I do want to go back and address a question that I asked way back at the beginning of this episode, Jeff. That being said, I'm going to preface this. I don't know about you. I'm still coming at this where there was a lesson that Dillon, maybe not even Sheridan, really needed to learn and needed to learn in order to move forward and do what she needed to do.

[1:32:55] Did she have to do it through this method? Probably not. Could it have come another way? Probably. This is the way that it came through in the story. So we'll just go with that. She needed to learn that lesson. And the whole thing begins. She goes to see Kosh and Kosh says, we need to know. And I asked the question, who's we? Maybe we is not the Vorlon. It's not the ubiquitous. We is the Vorlon need to know. Maybe the we was specifically Kosh and Deline. Hey, Deline, come here. You and I need to find this out. You and I need to know this. You and I, the we is us. She is the we. And I say there was something that happened in the episode. I don't remember exactly what it was. It was something she said or something she did that I was like, oh, it's her. Because she's the one who needs to learn it. And she was there. Just saying. They both, interestingly.

[1:33:48] In different times and ways sacrifice themselves right for things like kosh through attacking the shadows to lend through stepping into the thing and reforming i mean she she sacrificed her so the fact that they that uh naroon pushed her out and took the hit is she went in with the intent of sacrificing herself right right so yeah they needed to know that so they would go be able to do those things and then, and then Sheridan, you know, it's interesting. Cause I, I, I felt like he had more of a role, like active role. He definitely, you remember him having more of a role the first time we watched it than what he actually did. Totally. Yeah. Me too, me too. Yeah. Here he was like the pivot to push Dylan over the edge. And I think Katarina said it earlier in the council chambers chat. And I think it's great. The thing Sheridan learned turns out he's really into Dylan, like at a deep emotional level. Right.

[1:34:43] And that's important for everything. But I think all three of these people, Kosh, Delenn, and Sheridan, step up and sacrifice themselves. And they do it in ways, well, Sheridan and Kosh do it in ways that are, well, no, never mind. I would say they do it in ways that are not really visible or whatever, but nuking Zaha Doom is pretty visible. Delenn stepping into the little ring fire thing, that was pretty visible. Kosh getting beat up in his room, that was that was quiet and not visible but well bro i think that we discussed this episode, at length during it itself are there any other key points you want to bring up there is one thing i want to talk about unless you have anything else i mean we really i think we could continue to discuss for hours whether or not whether or not what the lesson was that dylan learned here and how it impacted her choices later.

[1:35:42] And we could also continue to discuss whether or not it was the right lesson to learn or whether it was, I think we're all in agreement. It wasn't the right way to learn the lesson. Right. But there, I think we could, we could go into each one of those conversations between Sebastian and Dylan and we could break each one of those down and have that. Yeah. That's beyond the scope of this particular show and beyond the listening capacity, I think of our audience, which are viewing audience with this live right now, we're at two and a half hours i don't know what this is going to be on the edit but we're certainly there so that is a very long-winded way of saying.

[1:36:17] Cool. I agree. I just wanted to state for the record, and we'll get to this in the next segment, but my viewpoint of this episode has completely changed from the first time around. What I saw as Delenn being – what did I say? What were my words? Well, it's all about me. Yeah. Well, you were very whiny. Yeah. Well. That's a quote, direct quote, by the way. Probably, yeah. With the affect and everything, I'm totally sure. Yeah, I don't see it that way anymore. That was part of the process. Like, that was incredible writing and incredible acting that shows what she was experiencing at the hands of Sebastian. Yeah. So. So I see it differently. I win. You win. I don't know. Somebody wins. Air high five, Jeff. Internet high five. Yeah. Man, I think that's – you know, I started this whole thing. My big theory is this is Babylon 5's duet, that people watch it later and they just become enamored with it. I think there's a lot of stuff that we could really dig out of here.

[1:37:23] Although i gotta tell you in my experience of talking to folks i don't hear a whole lot of people talking about this episode in high regard yeah i hear a lot of oh yeah i like that episode or don't really care for that episode a whole lot like it still seems to be very whatever so i think i might have missed the mark on that one but i do i think there's some interesting so you've you've changed your tone on a lot of this jeff it's interesting you say that because Because the first time around, I got to put this in the ranking. But this time around, as we create our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon 5 Season 2 for the second time, you're the one who gets to place this one, Jeff. And you said you have a very different placement. Well, at least you have a very different idea of this episode. So let's find out what you do. I'm just going to do top five. I don't know if it's going to crack our top five or not. But I'm going to do top five on this season. Top five, episode 21, Jeff. Holy schmoly. Five is Confessions and Lamentations. Four, Geometry of Shadows. Three, Coming of Shadows. Two, In the Shadow of Zaha Doom. And one, The Long Twilight Struggle. Jeff, where in this thing do you place comes The Inquisitor? An episode that may not be incredible but is incredibly deep and contains a lot of stuff. I'm really in a place where I'm focused on the deepness of it, the philosophy behind it, the questions, the challenges. Uh-huh.

[1:38:48] And then the technical aspects to a to a line to a facial expression the acting in this was incredible lanier saying to sheridan she he's killing her i mean it was in profile but his face just the i mean this was executed perfectly the cinematography all of that so i'm in that and so as i think about ranking it i have to come back up right and look at the episode as a whole one of the questions that I am asking is the one we've talked about. If this never happened, would we still get where we needed to go? Because I don't want to discount again that while this was meant to show us the Vorlons aren't such squeaky clean people, man, this was a rough, rough way of doing that. And if I focus just on the messages, the conversations, the philosophy, the technical execution of this. This would almost crack the top three. But when I come up and look at it as a whole, it suffers a little bit, but not nearly that much. Ultimately, Brent, I'm going to put this one at number eight.

[1:39:55] Eight, which puts it just below a race through dark places and just above soulmates. Wow. That is quite the leap for you. It is. It was never this end up in our final season to tally. Do you know? It was a 14. This one won't go any lower than number nine now, unless we do another shuffling later. But wow. On the come up for comes the inquisitor. I, I, I think you, Jeff are maybe where I was when I saw this the first time. I thought there was a lot of depth to this episode that I, but what I was aware of in the moment, I didn't have the context to be able to even come close to properly examining it. And I'm not sure that I have the proper context to properly examine it right now with where I am sitting in this chair. Like, I feel like this is one of those episodes that really probably requires multiple viewings, probably within multiple viewings of the series. Right. As a whole.

[1:40:50] Which, hey, it's Babylon 5. Let's watch it again. Yeah. I'm not going to podcast about it for a third time like this, but I don't know. I just keep saying that. Maybe we will. Who knows? Who knows? We have a long ways to go. Jeff, that's going to do it for Comes the Inquisitor. It is. Let's put a wrap on this. Jeff, I got to tell you, man. I got to tell you. This one feels like it's been a long time coming. I think so, too. I agree. Season finale. Season two. The fall of night. We're here, Jeff. We finally made it. the fall of night, Jeff, I want you to dig way back in the recesses of your memory. I want you to think the very first time you ever heard the phrase, the fall of night, what did you think that episode might be about? Right. My prediction, because we played the prediction game the first time around, my prediction was that the Great War is going to finally start because it's the end of the season and literally it's in the intro song. Like, come on, it's got to start at some point. So I said, it's going to finally start. It's going to be an extension of the Centauri aggression and that'll end up pulling Earth and Minbar into the conflict. Did you predict it was going to be about? I said it was going to be the start of the Great War.

[1:42:07] Basically, we've had this whole Narn Centauri thing. This is going to be where the shadows finally come out of hiding and the Great War has come upon us. And that's what it's got to be. We're both just waiting for that great war. Well, but they promised that this was the year that the great war came upon us. Have we had the great war yet? I don't think so. I still don't think that what we saw was not the great war. The Narn Centauri thing is separate from everything from the great war that's going on, right? Like it's a little side thing. I liked your prediction that it's going to draw them into it and take it from a local conflict to a regional conflict or a galactic conflict. Yeah, more galactic. I could certainly see that. So, I don't know, Jeff.

[1:42:54] Yeah, that's what we think. It is. And we're going to find out next week just what exactly we were right about and what we were wrong about as we watched The Fall of Night for the second time right here. Thank you for joining us for this lengthy and deep conversation that could have been so much lengthier and so much deeper than it turned out to be. But if you want to be sure that you don't miss the next one fall of night an incredible episode of Babylon 5 Make sure you subscribe wherever you're listening to us wherever you're watching us Give us a rating and a review while you're at it If you have little star things on the app go ahead and hit those or the little like Uh button they've got on the youtube hit that as well What really means a lot to us though Probably the most meaningful thing that you can do to not only acknowledge the, Conversations that we're having here and the the just the great stuff that's happening but also to help grow our amazing community is share this show, share it with somebody else who loves Babylon five and needs to know what it's like to watch it for the second time. So until next time we're going to watch Jeff. Yes. What is going on? Jeff. Yeah. Who are you? I'm Jeff Aiken. No, not what is your name? Who are you? I am, uh, uh, Jeff, the son of Larry and Monica. No, No, no, I don't want to know who your parents are. Who are you?

[1:44:17] I am a hard-working person that really cares about my family and my community. No, no, I didn't ask what you care about or what you do. I asked, who are you? Who am I? Who are you? I. I'm. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise This station is about something.