March 27, 2023

Comes the Inquisitor

Now we know for sure - they are the chosen one.

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

Kosh invites an Inquisitor to test Delenn. This might be one of the most contentious episodes yet as Jeff and Brent see this one very differently.

This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more:

Producers: Jeffrey H. Adam Pasztory Addryc Andrew ClubPro70 David Blau Nathanael Myer

All rights belong to the Prime Time Entertainment Network, WBTV, and TNT. No copyright infringement intended.

Copyright Disclaimer, Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for 'fair use' for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.

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Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon 5 for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the very first time. Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching Babylon five. You guessed it.

For the very first time. We are searching for Star Trek like messages, not Star Trek messages, star Trek esque like messages within this series. And then we're also just san saying, Hey, how Babylon five is this series, because Babylon five should be very

Jeff: babble on five, you'd think. Right? And we're gonna find out.

Like Brent said, this is not a Star Trek podcast. I actually said that too. We say that a couple times here at the beginning because we want you to know it's not a Star Trek podcast. We want you to

Brent: know that we know , right? This

Jeff: is not, we're clear, we're very clear here, but we wanna like double down on being clear there.

So we have the rule of three, one of the many games that we play here on Babylon, five for the first time. And what that means is each one of us, what that means is each one of us gets up to no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's, that's it. Three one of those plays. No substitutions.

Exchanges are refund. Hey Brent, we've got a five star review. Oh yes. This is from Apple Podcasts. No date for me. Oh, sorry. No date for me. Well, they're watching Baby On Five and this podcast, so that's a pretty simple math equation, but no date for me says as a big B five fan, as well as a Star Trek fan, I'm enjoying your ride.

There's so much ahead for you on this journey, and listening to your comments reminds me of how I had to be dragged into the show by a friend, and I'm eternally grateful for the gift he gave me. This was a show that received terrible marketing in the us, often placed at 4:00 AM on the network. I would set the vcr.

Yep, I'm that old to record it. And I missed 30 minutes of one episode because the network randomly changed the time I was up every morning super early to watch it after that point to make sure I never missed a moment. I hope you get to that same point when each show is a rollercoaster of good stuff, that you can't wait until you see the next episode.

Brent: Well, I tell you. Each episode definitely is a rollercoaster. It's up and it's down, and we definitely can't wait to see the next episode.

Jeff: Definitely can't wait for the next up. Hey, right, we've got another five star review. Oh yes. Also from Apple Podcasts. I cannot pronounce this name. I don't think it's a real name as my guess, but it's Ad m Varn.

And isn't Varn the dude who was in Epsilon three the first time? Adam know his name. We'll call

Brent: him you. I was thinking Verne like, remember Ernest? Ernest B. Mm-hmm. Know what I mean? Varn. I do. That's what I was thinking. But you know, sure. Maybe it was VA down there.

Jeff: Well, Adam VA , Adam Va says, experience Babylon five through the eyes of Two Star Trek podcasters who bring forth new insights and hilarious commentary as they journey through the series from some initial skepticism to appreciation.

They stick to the no spoilers theme, which makes this a true first time experience. If you like B five, then this is the chance to join them and revisit the series yourself. If you're a hardcore fan, you'll find new things that you may have missed the first time as they focus deeply on the little things that tease out the B five universe.

Brent: Well, thank you, uh, to both, both of our, our reviewers this week. Thank you so much for your review. I, I will tell you, it is more than just a theme. No. Spoilers is a way of life. Yeah. For Jeff and I, and we really guard it closely. Like, like there are times where I have to shut off, uh, comments. I'll, I, I have deleted comments off of our pages before just because like you get two or three words in and you see where it's going, and so if you've ever noticed, one of your comments have disappeared, folks.

Know that, that's just Jeff and I being

Jeff: over know that you spoiled it. Right. And we are. This is the no spoiler nation for life. Right. It's Wow, you just did that pulling out the nwo a little wolf fuck for you.

Brent: But Jeff, I got a suggestion. Yeah. You know how like when people go to our YouTube page, because we have a YouTube page that actually is the show about the show.

Like it's the real show, right? Uh, podcast is cool. You guys are awesome. Keep listening to the podcast. But the YouTube folks, you guys are awesome. Uh, but if you go to our YouTube page and you're not subscribed, it actually pops up like a commercial that we did. Mm-hmm. , right? Like, like, like a little promo.

I think we should rerecord that with this review. Like, this guy wrote a new ad, like a new ad read for us, really did The way that that comes out, right?

Jeff: That's a good idea. I have one every once in a while. You know, it's second season, it's time for another one you're due.

Those are all the reviews I had to share.

Brent: Hey

Jeff: Jeff. Hey Brent .

Brent: I think we missed that last week.

Jeff: missed. Is there air quotes? If you're listening, missed that last and Jeff

Brent: deleted it from the, from the notes and I put it back in . Hey Jeff, you know, along with our game that we play here, the rule of three, there is another game we play when we get towards the end of the episode and we take a look at what next week episodes, title is, and we try to make a guess as far as what's gonna happen in that based on title alone, and just pure intuition, never having seen it.

We don't read, uh, uh, little show blurbs that they put on Netflix or HBO Max. We don't try not to look at thumbnails, any of that kind of stuff. It's just a pure guess as far as what next week was gonna be about. This is the point of the show where we look back on last week and we see just how right or wrong we were about this week.

So, Jeff, what did you say comes the inquisitor was going to be

Jeff: about? So, I'm, I'm so wanting to double down on what I said it was, I mean, it had nothing to, nothing to do with this episode, but Brent people have been really upset. I mean, all the way back, all the way back to Revelations. People have been upset by my, uh, my prediction so much so that I.

Like, I think I'm hitting a nerve. My prediction,

Brent: like their, their response is confirmation as a spoiler es esque thing

Jeff: to do. That's, that's my, that's how I'm playing it. So Anna, who is Sheridan's, uh, deceased, deceased wife is not so deceased and she was gonna show up as an inquisitor to Inquisit. What do you want?

You were gonna get a modernized Anna. That did not happen. Um, we did get some questions, but it was not, what do you want, what about you? What did you guess this one was gonna be about?

Brent: Well, I believe that I said, um, that the inquisitor was gonna be a sonari who was coming to effectively try to take over.

Um, and that's not what happened. But what I did get right was Ja car at living in exile on the station is gonna start mounting a defense. Um, and. He's gonna start making a few moves. And that's a hundred percent That's, it was very much a b plot of this episode, but I nailed it and got that one right.

Jeff: Maybe should have been the alo. You do definitely get some partial credit there.

Brent: I'll take every, every single bit of it. But Jeff, while those were our predictions, Nope. You gotta do the other thing first.

Jeff: Sorry. Right. I gotta remember what I said cause I was setting myself up to go in, what did I say?

Uh, partial credit. Sorry. Okay. That's alright. I'm so sorry.

Brent: Yeah, you said I'll get partial

Jeff: credit. Yeah. Yeah. But when it comes to babble on five for the first time, there is no partial credit. When you decide to participate in our season two wrap up episode in the incredible giveaway that we're doing, Brent, you're gonna show 'em what we're giving away.

To enter into this, you go to Apple Podcasts, you go to Pod Chaser, you go to Good Pods, you leave us a review, you screenshot that review, you send it to us via email, Babylon five first, the number five, the word first, or on our Twitter at Babylon first, and you're entered into the drawing.

If you entered before, if you left a review before you're also entered in full credit and look at this bad boy, tell him about it, Brent. Well,

Brent: drew, you are gonna take home your very own Captain John Sheridan, earth Uniform Babylon five Space Station vintage action figure, still in box from the 1997 toy line.

That's right, folks. And all of this can be yours if the review

Jeff: is right. Oh yeah. The review is right. Come on

Brent: down. Yes. And, uh, listen, just, uh, uh, I can only show this to the folks at YouTube. So if you're only listening to the podcast once again, go find our YouTube channel. Man. I've plugged YouTube a lot.

Go check it out. It's in there.

Jeff: I wonder. So this is from 1990. That's what it says on the box. Yeah. So I think that's season four. I wonder if there's a spoiler, like somewhere in season three, Babylon five is gonna shrink to the size of my pinky. . Or at least to the size of, uh, John Sheridan's leg. Cause that's about, that's about the size of that thing in there.

Uhhuh .

Brent: But he's pointing. John Sheridan is pointing like he's got a finger. I wanna see if I can get this and close on the camera. So if you see his little finger right there, Jeff, that's intense. He's pointing. And I remember when I first got this, lots of people were talking about the pointing is just Sheridan pointing

Jeff: Like why is he pointing? But what it is that's, that's his move. Anytime something comes down that he doesn't want to do, he points to Ava and says, you get this one , there's Ava finger. There you go. I like it.

Okay. Now you can go to that part in the notes that you jumped ahead too. Okay.

Brent: Well, Jeff, now that we have covered our season one wrap up, let's, I'm sorry. Well, Jeff, now that we've Does

well, Jeff, now that we have covered our season two wrap up giveaway, it is time to begin to wrap up season two. We got another episode to go after this one. However, let's talk about this episode for the folks at home who may not have seen this episode or just maybe it's been a while since they've seen this episode, why don't you let us know what happened in this

Jeff: episode?

Ambassador Kosh calls up. Tolen says he needs to be sure that she's up to snuff, so he is calling in an inquisitor. And you know what they say? No one expects the vlan inquisit. Except Dalen Sheridan, the customs dude. Yeah, actually, I guess everybody pretty much expects this guy. Well, he rolls up in a VLAN transport and it's, it's a human old school suit, fancy cane.

Strong, strong. Dr. Who vibes here, at least to me, says his name is Sebastian and he's from Earth, earth, 1888. He even drops a super specific London Street address, but no. Nope, it's not Sherlock Holmes' address. But if you're a fan of Christopher Plummer, films keep murder by decree in mind.

Sheridan sets him up in some kind of cargo hold looking place with super focused spotlights. You know, just think gray council chambers, but no triangles. And then, so, so much of this episode is just Sebastian. And with Sebastian trying to get a satisfactory answer to one single question, who are you? But here's the thing, when she gives an unsatisfactory answer, which is all the answers, she gets shocked by these fancy manacles that Sebastian brought along.

It's a very, very gum jabbar pain box kind of stuff going on in here. Now, while this going, now while this is going on, we visit Citizen Jaar. Dude has a serious vision and a strong work ethic. He's gone full street preacher and is warning everyone about the war Monger Sonari. He meets with the new version of Negra, Mr.

Chase, to buy weapons. You see, the Kari may have surrendered to the Sari, but Jaar didn't, and he's mounting a resistance effort. Bague. Baldi gets wise to this, and he does really quickly. He meets up with Jaar. They have a tense but productive back and forth, and Garabaldi hooks him up with a dude that runs weapons from a different transfer station, keeping the weapons off Babel on five, but still supporting the Narn effort.

But the NAS aren't sure that Jaar can come through for them, so he puts his leadership on the line promising to get them in touch with their families on the creatively named home world. He asked Sheridan for help and he agrees sending the Rangers on their first live mission and they rock. Jaar shares the family's messages and they agree to follow his lead.

Well, the Inquisition is not going well. Land is getting rocked in. Sebastian seems to really be enjoying it. Lanier tries to help, so Sheridan busts into helper. Oh, not a good move. We get flashbacks to Sinclair hanging from the triangle, and now Sebastian has two people to Inquisit. Putting Sheridan John in danger lights the fire under the lens that this whole thing was meant to spark.

She offers to sacrifice herself to save him. With that, Sebastian declares the inquisition of success, telling them they are the right people in the right place at the right time. As, as he leaves Sheridan exposes a massive flaw in the station's computers apparently giving a very specific date, a very specific street address in just one name makes it nearly impossible to pull up any historical records.

I guess the first and last name fields are required. Wow. They must have bought some, uh, hobby access developer to put this thing together, but if Ava comes through as, as she will somehow through a sheer force of will and determination, she's able to learn about the person who lived at that address at that time.

It turns out Sebastian was not a very cool dude back in the day, but that happens to be exactly what the VLAN were looking for. Yeah, the VLAN have been involved in earth stuff since at least the 19th century, and they picked him up shortly after his, I don't know, fifth, maybe his 11th murder, depending on which historical account you believe leaving Earth with a forever mystery, a mystery that would later be solved in the 23rd century by a trio of brilliant problem solvers that warp through the galaxy as they uncover the identity of Red jack.


Brent: jack, red jack, red jack, red Jack,

Jeff: Jack, the ripper. So Brent, what were your thoughts on comes the

Brent: inquisitor? You know what, Jeff?

I think this. Is Babylon five s duet.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I really do. Uh, and and what I'll explain by that is, uh, so duet is an episode towards the end of the first season of Deep Space Nine. It is generally held in really high regard. It is two actors at the top of their game, two people in a room talking. That's what the episode is. And they're going toe to toe mono, I and it, and it's, it's, it's honestly probably one of the worst over actors of nineties trek going up against the judge from Ghostbusters two.

Right. And it, it's truly a phenomenal episode and, and it's generally held in super high regard. I'm going through that episode with my first time watcher over on Beat Me Up, and he gets to it and he is like, And you realize it's one of those episodes that really

you have to see it multiple times to begin to appreciate it and to begin to really, and I'm not just talking about once or twice in preparation for a podcast. I mean, many times over the course of the whole show, you've gotta, you have to know where the characters are going to be able to see them through those eyes in that moment.

You know? Um, because I dare say, knowing where Ki and a Reese goes and the full arc of her character colors that conversation versus what you had in 19 episodes prior to that particular, uh, one. So my suspicion is, while I'm gonna sit here with this episode and just kind of go, I didn't hate it. I really didn't, I didn't hate it.

I can't say that I loved it if I were doing, wait, I am doing the ranking later on. Okay. Spoiler. Were, it's gonna be in the middle, middle of the pack for me. . Okay. Um, my guess is this is an episode that the fandom General generally truly loves and they, they adore the acting between Mira Furland. Mm-hmm.

and Sebastian, you know, and then with Bruce Box Litner coming in to the, like that there's just something about this episode that everybody just absolutely adores and loves. I guess that's my prediction. I don't know. But overall, I thought it was a very okay episode. Um, to be an episode that's gonna come off of what last week felt like a season finale going into what next week is a season finale.

Also under, like, like the other thought that I had was, this is a bottle show. Like they blew a whole bunch of money and they just needed a cheap episode, , you know, and that's, I think, maybe a little bit of where this episode comes from. I have some questions about about it, and we'll get into that here in just a few moments.

But overall, I, I, I didn't hate it. I thought it was fine. I wouldn't change the channel watching it again later, but it's just a weird placement between these two episodes. Jeff, how about you?

Jeff: That placement was a real problem for me. I, I used to be a baker a long time ago in the, uh, in the pre-show that you can catch on YouTube, uh, Brent was really going down a path of, of things that were baked

And it really, it reminded me how, like, you know, I, it was a speller actually. It was really, you did a great job. But I, that's what I used to do for a job. Like I, I, I was a baker and my boss,

Brent: Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. Leadership guru, pro wrestling dude, podcasting extraordinaire, motivational speaker, and

Jeff: a baker. Yeah.

And a professional musician. The list goes on. That's what it takes to be able to do all these things, is you have to have a very diverse life experience. All right. Go ahead man. I loved baking. It's a, it's a science, right? But there's also an art to it. But my boss gave me, so if you know anything about sourdough bread, sourdough is, oh, it's one of my favorites.

You get a nice, if you do it right, you get a crispy hard to work with. It's really good. Yeah. Well, it's easy to work with. If you use a powder like most people do, you know. But if you have a Levon and you actually like, you know, you, you cultivate it and you grow it and take care for it, it, it, it's a lot of work.

It's hard and it's so good. And my boss gave me a Levon that he had received from his master baker that he worked under. It was like three, 400 years old, like this ancient thing that had been kept alive for generations. Oh. So it was,

Brent: it was a sourdough starter bit that was three, 400

Jeff: years old. Yeah. And has been passed on.

Passed on, passed on. And it was delicious. It was so great. It had that, that tart that hits you. If you're watching on YouTube, you can like right here in the back, like where your jaw comes together and it kind of tingles in there. Oh, so good. But I was like 21 years old. Like I was a, I was a baby essentially.

Uh, and so I'd make this bread at home and it was so good. And then like I would get garbage, right? I'd go buy craft American cheese or something like that and put it in the middle, or you know, kind of melt it like a patty melt or grilled cheese on there. That was this episode, I'm making a huge assumption that the season two finale is gonna match what we saw last week, and we're gonna have these beautiful, amazing slices of sourdough bread with.

craft American cheese in the middle. Like this wasn't an offensive episode. Uhhuh. Okay. I want, this was the recap I was gonna do first. Okay. You ready? We'll sit back. This is gonna add 20 minutes, but I think it's important. Dalen gets interrogated eventually. Sheridan does two by human, the vlan have used since 1888 confirming that, uh, they are the first ones.

And then confirming that Sheridan Anden are the chosen one, and Ja car becomes the leader of the non-resistance cell. There you go. Like, that's the episode. That's everything that happened. But my big problem with this episode, more than anything, well actually my big problem is there was that Jack The Ripper drop was just ridiculous.

It didn't have to happen. It served to me. It was just like, look at this thing, but we'll talk about that. This is my real problem with it. It solves a problem. That's not our problem. This is the problem with somebody like jms writing this show. He has done so much deep world building. He, he knows everything that has ever happened in this universe.

And so in his world that he's built a thousand years ago, 10,000 years ago, they didn't destroy the shadows because whoever was supposed to be the chosen one wasn't like, they were someone driven by ego. They were someone that wanted to be the star. And then when the moment came, it all fell apart and they still won, but they weren't able to destroy them.

So the volans being the last first ones that are actively here have created this process to go and confirm that who the chosen one is, is the chosen one. Cool. Awesome. None of that's our problem. This solved a thing that's in JM S'S head. Like you could have just told me, Hey, they're the chosen one. And I would've been like, cool, I'm down.

All right. But instead we got this, I will say, you mentioned your, you gave a little spoiler on where you're gonna rank this a little bit. I am very eager to get to the Deltas and the star treky message of this one. Well, let, let's not

Brent: delay that. Let's just discuss the episode and, and then get into it. Um, let's start with the B plot.

Just get this whole piece out of the way, because I don't think it's gonna take us very long. Jaar mounting a defense. We saw it coming. Mm-hmm. , um, they questioned his leadership. He went and got a letter from home. Yeah. Al in, in favorites. I did like, though, actually my favorite part of that whole subplot was the fact that, um, Sheridan sent the Rangers to go get it.

Like, he didn't call it a favor, he didn't whatever, like, and so I want that. I need a side story of the Adventures of the Rangers. Like, I hope this is like the babble on five comic book or

Jeff: something. So Yeah. Somebody a while ago actually emailed us, I think they emailed her on, on somewhere, but they said that a lot of people consider the comics and some of the novels as canon and they can roll in.

They were like, Hey, you guys should read these as part of this. And I was like, yeah, we'll catch this on the back end. We're just watching the show. But I, I would bet a lot of credits that there's a little series about this mission.

Brent: Totally. I would hope so. I would, I would absolutely hope so. But I, not all the missions,

Jeff: they did it in 24 hours.

Right? Like they got to a, a world they shouldn't be able to get to. Went and found the people, recorded a message and got back in, in 24 hours. Wild.

Brent: Right, and, and you know, like, I want to know, are we ever really gonna get to know who the Rangers are? Like so we have Keer. He's not, are we? No. But are we gonna get like another new cast member, like, you know, the, the studio's gonna force another hot guy onto the show, or maybe it's a hot girl.

That'd be cool. Um, oh God, that just sounds really horrible the way That's sounds terrible. . I don't mean it like that. That's honestly not what I meant. I just, you know,

Jeff: doesn't have to be a guy, is what you were saying. Yes,

Brent: that's what I mean. That's exactly what I mean. Um, but maybe they force something like that on and we get a character and this is like the captain of the Rangers or something like that.

Like I, I, I'd be interested to find out in the course of due time, please don't tell us folks. Um, I, I, it's just a question I have in my head, but I do want to know that, uh, uh, like I'm more interested in that than I am the rest of the whole story. To be frank with you, I thought Ja car's threat to the, the guy.

Who was selling him weapons. What I mean, this is a va a level threat. Totally. Right. Um, well no, but we've seen Jaar do these kind of threats before too, haven't we? Like, wasn't he the one who's like, I'll grind your bones and make flues out of them. Didn't Jaar say that?

Jeff: Totally. Yeah. But this was great.

Right? It's like even if they find you, they won't be able to recognize your remains.

Brent: Yeah. I was like, rest assured they find your body, but it will never be identified. I was like, oh my God, that was great. Um, all of that said, and I don't, I'm gonna talk about it here, although this may cross over with the message portion, but I wanna talk about it here just since we're doing it here.

Jaar and veer in the elevator. And when I first saw Veer in this episode, I thought he was up to something really? Or maybe he knew something. Okay. Like, cuz he's like standing on the promenade thing, looking over and. Um, and he just has this look on his face and turns out it was exactly what I would really want expect out of here.

It's, it's guilt and, and sympathy empathy, knowing that what his people has done is just absolutely

Jeff: atrocious. Right. And he wants to do something like that's the thing, but thing, but hett.

Brent: Exactly. Yeah. Like his position and just what he actually can and can't do. He can't do anything about it to be frank with you, you know?

And they get caught in the, in the elevator and it's just such a, uh, awkward moment. You almost feel like Jaar just wants to rip his head off while he's in the middle of this thing, you know? And Veer does a cool thing. He turns around and he says, I'm sorry. And I think we can have a conversation about what he really meant by that.

But Ja, car's response broke my heart. Mm-hmm. He cuts his hand and lets all the drops and he goes, dead, dead, dead, dead. Can anyone hear your apology? Then I can't forgive you. And I like two things. One, I'm not sure that what Veer meant was he is apologizing to you as much as I'm having empathy for your situation, because Veer didn't do it.

Veer tried to stop it. Maybe he's apologizing for not doing more, but what really, what could he have done? You know? Uh, we tend to say, I'm sorry, not as an apology, but, but just to show empathy, right? Um, I'm sorry this is happening to you. Mm-hmm. , uh, but when Jaar turns around and says, drip, drip, drip, there's a conflicted moment in me.

I 100% understand why Jaar feels that way. 100% get it. He is fully entitled to feel that way. However, bitterness and unforgiveness. I've often heard said it's like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. And for Ja car's own sake for his own heart. I really hope he can come to a spot where he is able to forgive at least veer, and to not classify ve because of his heritage, but by him as a person.

You know what I mean? Yeah. That I 100% get why jaar acts the way he does and he's fully justified in it, but for his own sake, I really want him to be able to come through that.

Jeff: And I think that he will, I think in the moment, right, it's probably. a week or so, you know, maybe a few weeks since everything went down.

Yeah, it's hot. It's fresh. It's fresh. Yeah. You know, and I think it makes sense for him to come, come across that way. This is what I think is gonna happen though as I, this isn't a conspiracy theory thing. This is just me kind of like putting the story blocks in place. The message that Veer got, I believe in that wasn't, you're unforgivable.

The message he got was to hell with your, sorry. Do something right? Like sorrys aren't doing anything. I, the people that are dead can't hear it and they're not fixing anything. Ves gonna take that as a call to action. I hope so. That'd be so cool. And so what I think is gonna happen is over. This is why not?

Let's spin it big. I think over season three, maybe the first half of season three veer is gonna start doing things behind the scenes that people don't know as him to kind of help. Help the narn out a little bit. Make sure a thing is in a certain place. Make sure a communique doesn't get to lawn's desk, stuff like that, just to make sure it happens.

Maybe in the second half he becomes a little more active, but I think that ve mm-hmm. and Ja car at some point will come face to face. It'll come clear that Ves been trying to help and veer is gonna be instrumental in the Narn winning their independence back from the Centar. He's gonna be a war hero for them.

You know, for

Brent: a guy that, for most of the first season and, and even a bit through the, well, not so much the second season, but really through that first season was a goofball. He was a punchline. He, he was comic relief. Right. He was a punchline to come to that spot. That's fantastic. I really hope that that's the

Jeff: case in that moment when he kind of stepped forward and then, you know, was obviously gonna say something to Jaar like that stretched out over a a period of time and it was uncomfortable.

And it was tense. Yeah. And I, in my head, I'm just like, What would I say? Like, how would I, you can't not say a thing to Jaar, what would I say? And like, almost at the same time he did, I'm like, all I can say is, I'm sorry. Like, that's all there is to say. And then he turned and he did it. And I was like, oh man.

Like ve we've been talking for a while about how he's arrived. He stood up Tolando, he stood up to Sheridan in this episode. He stood up to the little sequel fan trying to get stuff to lawn. And then he, and then he stood up to Jaar, but not stood up against him, but like, in a really humble, in meek way, that requires a tremendous amount of strength, right?

Ves Veer is the man, like he is, I think we've talked about how we thought lawn was gonna be the hero at some point. I'll tell you what, man to hell with that guy. Veer is gonna be

Brent: the hero. Yeah. I'm, I, I'm, I, I said last week I'm off the lawn train and I'm, I'm still there, but I'm very much on the veer train, very much on the VE train.

Um, I thought Jaar brought up a really good point in this episode. Sure this entire have taken over na, but how long before they turned their eye towards the rest of the galaxy? If they walk in unchallenged here, how long be before they begin to try to stretch forth their arm beyond

Jeff: these? I have a, so it was very fascinating to me that it was a human that argued with him.

And I have a little poem. I have a little poem, actually I'm not a poem. This isn't mine. But I have a short poem that I want to read. Uh, that to me, like as this was happening, he was street preaching and then human dude was like, dude, that's not our layoff. Whatever. This is what came to mind. First they came for the socialists and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me. And there was no one left to speak for me that was ne, I can't say his name. NEA Mueller, who, uh, was a, a German during World War ii and he gave a speech that was distilled into that poem that's at the Holocaust memorial right now.

That's what I felt, uh, through that whole piece. It's just like, he's like, dude, they came for us. It happened. They're coming for others. And human dude, like, how gonna come for us? That's spoiler alert or flash forward. Uh, that's gonna show up in my prediction for next week's episode actually, .

Brent: Fair enough. I I, I, I tried to write a thought on this and I really had to wordsmith it and I came with a very eloquent way of saying it's a very human thing to do.

The human did a very human thing to do, which is to not get involved. Mm-hmm. to stay out of it. That's not my fight. Which I think more often than is a, cuz I don't wanna get in trouble. I'm not trying to kick the hornet's nest. That ain't, that ain't none of my business. I'm gonna stay over here by me. I'm gonna watch out for me and mine and we're gonna, you know, sorry about you, luck, but that's not us.

I gotta, I gotta take care of this over here, you know? Um, and it takes a lot to step out. Mm-hmm. and, and speak up against, uh, particularly when it come, comes at the, the potential cost of self, right? Mm-hmm. . Uh, so yeah, I, I, I look forward to possibly discussing that a little bit more, uh, later. Um, Jeff, that's all I had on the whole Jaar piece.

Uh, did you have anything else? I didn't have anything

Jeff: else. There really was, actually, I did have one other piece. I just. I thought it was cool the conversation he had with Garabaldi and how like they both just knew what was up. And Jaar was like, Hey look, we can sit and play games and we can go back and forth in this.

You know that. I know and I know that, you know, so can we just get to the part that matters? And then Garabaldi is like, yeah, you're right. I don't ask a question unless I know the answer, but I thought this was interesting. But I always leave a little room for disappointment. Yeah. And you didn't disappoint me.

Yeah. I like for, for a guy Jaar, who like in episode zero in episode one, we thought like clearly he was gonna be the evil conniving guy through this whole thing. Dude, he is, he's an amazing person. He's just a great oh guy.

That's all I had in Jaar.

Brent: All right, so the only other real story of anything that happened ha all had to do with Dylan and Sheridan and, and, uh, Sebastian with a tiny cameo from Linear. Yeah. Um,

I have an overall question that may reframe this entire conversation. I'm trying to decide if I should ask it now or if I should wait till later.

Jeff: Well, let me, let me just say this. Yeah. Given your, um, framing of this as duet Uhhuh and that this through that lens becomes kind of, um, if not, not beloved, but appreciated by the, the, the community, the fandom out there, uhhuh, every, everything I have to say about, uh, about this scene except for what I'm gonna say about it in the closing thoughts is about how terrible I think it is.

So, I don't know if that helps you to want to rephrase. Why don't you go ahead.

Brent: Why don't you go, go ahead and make your case for why, how terrible this is, and then I want to take it and maybe reframe it a

Jeff: little bit. I am so disappointed in Lynn. She knew what was going on. Kash told her, I'm gonna send an inquisitor to make sure that you have what it takes to do what's coming.

She had an idea. You don't, you don't say inquisitor and expect like a coffee in conversation. So dude starts laying into her, asking great questions, pushing, challenging her in ways that someone at her level should be ready to be challenged at. And what does she do? She deflects, she turns it onto him. She makes it about how bad and evil he is.

You asked me who I am. Well, you like to give pain and you enjoy it too much. You're mean. You're a bull. Yeah. He's a bully. He's literally doing his job. He is clearly working to break you down to get to who you really are. And I thought that she should have had some inkling that that's what was going on here.

And even if she didn't, A strong person doesn't flip it about and make it about the other person. She starts talking about herself. You don't think I'm this, well, you know, I am this, this, and this. You wanna know who I am. I'm the person who had the guts to put myself in a cocoon and try the, like. She has a whole litany of great things she can say about herself, but instead she flipped it and him and, and made it about him.

She didn't start hitting any of the right answers until Sheridan was on the line. And I guess that's cool. There's some stuff that's cool about that, right? The needs of the one and the many. But still, I just, I guess I expected more fromen in this whole sequence and Lanier , like they all knew what was going on and they just immediately go to, this goes evil and is trying to kill.

No, he's challenging you hard. In fact, I think I've shared on, on this show, and if I haven't, I have many times on the Starlet Leadership Academy, but I went through a leadership academy and one of the instructors was a guy who was brought in for the sole purpose of breaking us down so we could determine who we were as leaders specifically.

And I'll never forget, we, there's one person in, in the academy who said that. So we, he has challenged us to come up with our personal mission statement and my personal mission statement for anyone that cares, is to improve others' potential and help unleash it through my interactions with them. I want to help.

I'm here to help people be better and, and, and reach what they're supposed to be. This lady, she says her. Was to be a good mom to her two sons, which is great. Right? So dude literally says, oh, it's nice. Well, hold on, I'm getting a phone call. Yep. Uhhuh. Oh yeah, I'll be sure to tell her, Hey, that was the school.

Your kids just got hit by a bus and they're dead. So now why are you here? And it was rough and people, and he just drilled everybody like this. And what it drove her to is realizing she's not here to be, I mean, she's gonna be a good mom to her sons, but her mission is to teach and to impart lessons and wisdom.

She just had it focused on there. Yeah. People got emotional, people cried. It was hard what he put us through. Yeah. But not a single person in that room because we were all trying to be leaders. You know, like a former sati or an ambassador or a chosen one might be. No one turned it around and made it about him.

Butlin did that is the, I found that wildly disappointing.

I kind of passed

Brent: over that whole piece. Like I heard that I, I'm, I'm tracking with you every bit of that. I, I just passed over that because I felt like that was small potatoes, given everything else going on. Um, I wanted, I want to drill down on you keep saying chosen one, and I know they talked about her as the chosen one.

I have never gotten the feeling through almost two full seasons of Babylon five that there is a chosen one in this world, a chosen one that's gonna bring balance to the force, or a chosen one that's gonna lead the armies against the darkness and, and anything like that. And you mentioned earlier, which I thought was real interesting, that like JMS has this thought in his.

There have been chosen ones before, but it was more about them than it was about the mission or about other people. And, uh, that's why they failed to destroy them. They

Jeff: only to be clear, I made that up. I don't know if that's true. That's just diving into his world building.

Brent: But that's a, that's an interesting, that's an interesting thought.

But they definitely said chosen when you are the chosen one that the read I had on that was more delin was only chosen because she chose herself. She's like, oh, I'm gonna just do this. Like, I, I like, she's only chosen because she, there's this prophecy that the two sides of the, the mbar souls are gonna have to unite.

Right? And so why not me? Let's just go be the bridge. Like, not that there's some great plan of chosen one, although this, this episode had a ton of Christian Biblical imagery. Chosen by God and, and lots of references that, that are pulled straight out of the Bible. Um,

but what do you think that Dilin is a quote unquote chosen one? Is there even a chosen

Jeff: one? I think this is the first, the story. I think this is the first time we've heard the phrase chosen one. Right. But, but we've heard the phrase the one as far back as Babylon squared. And we had this same conversation, if I remember right, because the last scene of that right was the, the arm of Cuz they didn't want to give away.

I'm guessing the, the transformation over to Old Sinclair in the 2001 Space Odyssey space suit in Zas being the one, oh not the one. And so we had that whole thing of like, is it now Sinclair? Is it later? Sinclair? Is it Dalen? Is it's hand, is it some other menari? Right. It's never been clear. And I think.

This took it to that next level, calling it chosen one. But the impression I got at the end of this was that the chosen one is a chosen two, it's Sheridan and Right. At least that's what I got at the end of this. At first it was like, oh, Sheridan's here to be the, the catalyst for her, you know, her breaking down and seeing everything and exposing her true nature.

But when he said he is like, just know the both of you are the right people at the, and it's like, so the chosen one is both of them. Yeah.

Brent: Well, so I, I have a thought on that. I wanna put a pin in that. Okay. Here's the other question that I have going into this. Why, why is Kosh now doubting the Lynn? Why, why does he not trust her all of a sudden?

Why does he have to be sure after everything that's happened so far, why is it now? Is he going. I just want to be sure. And so I'm gonna send this inquisitor after

Jeff: you. That's where I dug into the JM S'S world building where he'd be the only one who had any historical account of how the past battles with the, the shadows went.

And he was probably like, Nope, we, we had a contingency for this. And so far you're doing all the great things, but now we have to be sure. So I have

Brent: a, I have a, an answer that I think is gonna hold true. Okay. I think this rings true and I, I think that this might, I hope this is where the fandom looks back on this episode and they go, yep, that's what I was actually happening.

And that's why we love it because it was so, so cool. But I think it's actually contained within this episode. Okay. Here's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it to you though in the form of a question though, Jeff. Okay. Little Socratic method for you here. This whole thing for delin. Well, it's a two part question.

Was it about. or was it about Sheridan?


and more so I think it was about Sheridan, but I, yes, I think it was about both. But here's the other question. Was this a testing or was this a teaching? Hmm. This whole experience that they went through. Okay. Was it a testing on the part of ko or was it a teaching to get them to understand something about themselves that they're going to need going forward and for whatever reason, this was the

Jeff: only way that it could happen?

What immediately comes to mind?

What was the episode where Kosh sent shared into the hot box? What was that one? I forget what it was, but he goes in, they did the Gregorian chant. Was that all alone in the night? No. Cause that's when, that's uh, when they got abducted. Okay. Yeah, it was one of them. Yeah, it was one after that. But he's the hot box, right?

The hot box one where he took off his stat bar and symbolically gave up command. So the lesson, like I said, there, he was teaching him that there's gonna be a time, you're gonna have to give this up in order to move to the next level. This lines up with that, where this isn't gonna come down to some, like, there's gonna be a huge, massive clash of millions of people and all this stuff, but it's literally gonna come down to you sacrificing yourself for one person.

Mm-hmm. . And this was the dry, the dry run of that will, when the chips are down, when it happens, will you do it? So it was a test. To see if they were capable of making that happen. And then a teaching that won't ring until that moment when those things, like the moments there. And then the flashback will come with Sebastian saying the things like, this is my time.

He'll rip off the stat bar and he'll dive in. You know, to go , sacrifice himself for the one. I like that theory a lot. It, it tracks, it makes a lot of sense.

Brent: I I, I'm just gonna go down the, the path and I'm gonna live in the assumption that this is a teaching and I think it honestly might have been more about Sheridan than it has been about Dalen, although I think she's a part of it.

Jeff: Yes. And I'd say the impression I got from Babylon squared, I don't know if Sheridan's slipping in for Sinclair or how it works, but there's a unit between a human anden Yeah. That, that

Brent: matters. Yeah. And I like. All that stuff at the beginning. Who are you? The, the pain bracelets, which by the way has it, of all the ways that they've chosen to give people pain on this show, this is the best way so far.

Jeff: Right? ? Yeah. The

Brent: pain box or the, the pain giver or the eyes just going pain and ah, like of all the ways to give pain. This has been the best one so far. Um, but all of that, even, even allowing linear to to come in, all of that was designed to get Sheridan down there and then to be able to put Sheridan through all of this to where they both were going to sacrifice each other for the other mm-hmm.

Right. Um, and in probably one of the most non star treky moments, this is not the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the one or the few. This is the needs of the one just being the needs of the one. You know, and Dilen says that whether it's, but, but it's also so Star Trek and, we'll, I'm sure we'll get into this in just a second to say whether it's one life or a million, it's the same.

Like, there's such a respect for life, which is so Star Trek, but literally a big thing about Star Trek is sacrificing yourself for the greater good for everybody else. Right. Um, so they both kind of find the face, but I think at the end this was getting them both to that spot. I don't, I don't think this was a testing at all except for maybe, possibly in and of their themselves.

Yeah. But that testing is the teaching. Mm-hmm. that you got, this is now who you are. Like I love that question and, and, and I wrote this note down and I love it.

I'm gonna save this for the end. Okay. I'm gonna save this part for the end. Remind me if I don't talk about the note that I wrote down.

Jeff: Okay. Well, I love, I love, I love what you said here though, because like, as I read it and I even said, That all this did was solve a problem that we don't have. Tell us they're the one cool, they're the one, right?

I mean, they did that in Babylon squared. And our question wasn't why are they the one, are they really the one, the question was which one is the one? Right. You know, so, but what you, the layers you've added makes this episode matter. Now this means something. Whereas before it was just like, wow. Okay. So there's a nace resistance and a weird guy that they picked up that they, for whatever reason decided to say was Jack the Ripper.

Okay, cool.

Who are we there, you think?

Brent: Uh, yeah. I I will, can I ? It feels like we're skipping this part, and this should be like at the top of the conversation. I, I do wanna say, I found the directing and the editing in this episode really wonderful, the slow, deliberate pacing. That, those agonizing moments in the elevator with veer and jaar, that, that slow walk entrance of Sebastian walking through the dark with the cane and popping the, the cane as he goes down and you see the top hat and everything's in silhouette.

It was, it was so cool. Just to watch. Did you have a

Jeff: guess when he was wa when Sebastian was walking in, did you have a guess like, oh, it's gonna be, did you think it would be somebody

Brent: No, no. I, I saw, I like, I kind of saw the outline and I was like, I, I think I literally said, is this an old English dude?

Like ? Yes. Cause I saw the top at turns out. Yeah, that's exactly what it was. That was, they had like, that's that thing that was like, just in the back of my head. I don't even know that I said it. I was.

Jeff: They had the, the sound, right. And with the sound, clearly there was a cane and that was a, that was a slick looking cane, right?

Come and then they showed the shoes and then they kind of backed and they came. It was a little bit until you actually saw the suit and the top hat and silhouette. But I was watching it going, oh, it's Bester. They're bringing in. Bester was, and Oh no, they're bringing in Dr. Who instead. Okay, . And then they're like, no, it's not that.

It's, it's, it's Jack. But I agree. Um, and the directing as well. Duet is a great example. Another one, and I'll, I'll, I'll buzz myself here, but is Waltz where it's literally Cisco and Ducat in a poorly, poorly lit cave for 38 out 43 minutes. Yeah. And depending on what you think on those actors, like it's either great or someone actually I remember said, cause I I, I released that one for Starlet Leadership Academy, I don't know, five, six months ago.

And somebody was like, it was a good episode though too. People need to go listen to it. It was an important episode. Let's go back. Go back. It's actually one of my favorite ones. Just really quick, let just say cuz I got to address, uh, just culture in that one, which is a cool concept that a lot of people aren't familiar with and I love it either way.

Somebody said this great line where they said this is simultaneously one of the greatest acting achievements for Avery Brooks and Marco limo together and the Fringiest moments as well. And I was like, Okay.

Brent: Was that me? Because I feel like I have said stuff like

Jeff: that before. You probably said that, but No, it was someone else who interacted pretty regular.

Yeah. Yeah. But when I, I'm like, that's how Brent, at best, I know that's how Brent feels about this one. .

Brent: It's true. It's true. It's, that one's not necessarily a fan favorite episode. .

Jeff: No, I really like it. And I think what makes it work for me is there's, there's relationship and there's character not only between Cisco and Duca, but the director is Renee aoi who played oto.

Right? Right. So there's a real relationship that made everything unlock and work. In this episode you had Mira Furland, um, a director, I think, I don't remember who directed this, but not someone that it popped out, uh, at me and guest star guy who showed up. Remember him talking.

Brent: They nailed it. Yeah.

Jeff: Like it was tense.

Yeah. It built in the moment, like for me, when it clicked was when they got in each other's faces and started yelling back and forth and, and I've always felt in TV shows, Buffy the Vampire Slayer was one. I always felt bad. Where every episode has like this big bad person that shows up and they have to be able to stand up to the whole Scooby gang and go with them, you know, have the chops to do it like they've been here all along.

Right. Not all of 'em are able to accomplish that. This dude did and he did it opposite Dalen, who's a character that I, that is beloved people of, in my, in my opinion, someone that Jms thinks is the alien of the show. Like I think if he had to like say, who's the person here that Alien Wise, Babybel on five is hanging and then Jacaranda, they're all great, but I think is his, you know?

Yeah. Like, yeah. It was fantastic. Super well done. Um,

Brent: I think we're there, Jeff.

Jeff: We are there. Brent. Brent. We have reached that part of the show, and right now where we boil this all down, we see if it has any of that star treky quality to it. Maybe like a deep moral message. Maybe it's holding up a mirror to society or giving us hope that we might be better in the future.

We're gonna do this by me rating this on a scale of zero to five Deltas as to how Star Trek this episode is. And Brent, you're gonna rate this episode on a scale of zero to five star theories as to how much we enjoyed this episode and, and just how Babylon five this episode is. And I'm, I'm gonna go ahead and go first, and I think we've talked about a lot of this already, a lot of the Star Trek.

So I'm gonna pick out one really specific part, and it's one that I love talking about anyway. , we've talked about the concept of be, do, have oftentimes on this podcast. Sure. It's one of my, one of my favorite things. That was the point. Of the question, right? Who are you? Mm-hmm. , like, what's your b you know, in that equation.

But there's a counterpoint to that that wasn't brought up in this episode, but if you've been watching B on five, you can't help but think it. You have the shadows and you have morden who ask what do you want? Which is, you know, the, the have of, of, of the equation. So the vo on questioning, what they're trying to do is unlock your real potential through the be, do, have paradigm, which is be who you are so that you can do things and then have what it is you're trying to achieve.

And if you want some to achieve or have something better, boo boo boo, you roll back, you change, you improve you, so you can do something different and better and then have the things you want where with the shadows they are, have, do be, if I have a thing. Then I can do a thing and I'll be a thing. Lawn is the example of that.

If I have this power, if I have all this acclaim, then I can do all the cool stuff that I can. Then I can be someone that matters to the sentar. The problem with those things is that the have, do, be model relies on external factors you have no control over. Right? Like one of the examples I like to give is just like, oh man, if I, if I can have that really cool mic, right?

Like, oh, if I can have the, a new, a new, you know, thing, I'll be a good podcaster, then I can be a good po and then I'll have so many listeners, you know, and I'll, I'll be able to be, no, that's not how it works. You have to get better yourself. You have to improve as a podcaster, and then you can use some like corny little thing like this that plugs into your iPhone and it will still, it doesn't matter what you're using.

It'll still sound fine. Yeah, because you're, you're good.

Brent: Yeah. That's a fantastic. Example, Jeff, that's a fantastic object lesson to

Jeff: illustrate that, right? Cause I mean, I think you and I both met these people. If I just buy this, if I just buy this, I'll be fine. You know? Oh, here's another one. Oh, if the, if the Republicans just get controlling, oh, if the Democrats just, no.

The same wind blows on all of us. Yeah. The only thing that matters is how we set our sale against that wind. That's a Jim Ro quote. I can't own that, but it's still a good one. But the thing that, that, that was, that was huge to me here and manifested itself when, when Sebastian said, you are the right people at the right time and the right place because they are able to change themselves and make decisions for themselves to affect other people.

I will sacrifice. For him without question, without hesitation, without fame, because she leans on a B do have. And so that question was important through this whole thing, even though it was set up as a way to just kind of get the ball rolling and set up that big test at the end. It was huge. And I think this was even infused in and through the entire episode.

When we think about Jaar, we have to have these weapons so we can stand up and we can be victorious. But then he is challenged and he rolls back to, he's like, no, I have to be a good leader and I have to use the resources at my disposal so that I can get these people to things they need, the connections they want, so then we can have freedom someday.

Jaar even goes through this, but jaar even to add onto everything has the, there's got that whole message of like, evil is evil. And whether evil is happening to you or not, you gotta stand up against it because eventually evil comes for everybody. I feel like we've spent this whole episode talking about a lot of the Star Trek equality, so I won't repeat any more than what I just repeated.

I'm giving this one, four and a half Deltas. This was Wow. Very, very Star Trek message. Wow.

Brent: For a guy who didn't like this episode.

Jeff: Wow. You found a lot out not doing star the So let's, uh, .

Brent: Yeah. Well, fortunately for this episode, I am doing star Furies. Uh, Hey Jeff. You remember earlier where I said, uh, I'm gonna save that note for

Jeff: later.

Yeah. You remembered to bring it up. Yeah. You

Brent: literally just read it. Oh, well look at that. That's, I, it's exactly what I said. It is. It is an interesting juxtaposition between the shadows. Send Morden and ask what do you want? So that they can use you. They can use you. They're using Lawn Do, that's what they're doing.

Right. And they're saying, what do you want the Vons? Send the inquisitor and ask, who are you so that you can be of use to others? You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, it just, it's a, it's a cool juxtaposition that that sets these two pieces off side by side. I want to drill down though, on the words that Dalin used in this episode.

This is my cause, whether it's one life or a billion, it's all the same. It's all the same.

Sometimes the only way we can talk about whether or not it's Babylon five is in terms of what Star Trek would have done. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Okay. Yep. If this was Star Trek, they would have nailed down, not only on. Being all about life. Like that's a, I find that a very Star Trek thing. Like just a, a great respect for life.

They also would have condemned the torture that took place in this episode, right? Yeah. Whereas this episode, and what Babylon five did was it embraced the torture. It used the torture as a means to drive Dilin and Sheridan, even though you didn't know that it was Sheridan at the very beginning, because he's sending the inquisitor for Dilin.

But actually it was for both of them, he used the torture to drive them, to get them to the spot where they understood themselves better, where they're now ready to take on. This thing that is coming, they, it, it's helping them set their identity, you know, and to, to the point of what you are talking about of that, that be, do, have.

Mm-hmm. , is that it? That's it. Yeah. You've, and I know I've talked about this a few times and I, I just form it in, in terms of identity. You've got to know who you are, which is not your name, it's not your job title. It's not what you can do. It's your identity. Who, who are you, who are you at your core? And when you know who that is, all this other stuff doesn't matter.

When you can act from that place of being sure of who you are, you know, and, and the greatest example I'll, I'll give that is close to my own personal life. Okay? I, I don't wanna speak to other people's experiences. I can only speak to my experience

almost 10 years ago. Actually about 10 years ago, like right now, my wife and I were having a conversation. My kid was about to turn one years old, and we had a business together. We were in the process of winding that business down and shutting down that business, and we were trying to figure some stuff out and we said, uh, in a conversation we said, if, if somebody's gonna screw our kid up, we would rather it be all one of us and not someone else.

Fortunately, we were in a position where we both didn't have to work to bring in an income, and we made the decision together because she told me we did it together. Yeah. , that's how it works, that I would become a stay at home dad. Okay. Now, I, I do believe that people generally have a wiring. All right.

And for, I think, I think men as a, this is a very broad, generalized thing. Okay. I just understand that. I, I for men there, there's just this sort of innate desire to, to go out, to, to leave the cave and kill something and drag it home. You know, it's that, that, that primal, you know, comes from for, you know what men, we don't necessarily have that nurture side that mothers do that, that mothers just seem to have, right?

That's not to say we can't have it. That's not to say it's not there. It's just different, you know? And for a long time, I struggled not being somebody, bringing in an income to the family. No, we were fine. We, we really were like, we were okay. Um, I struggled with, am I wasting my life? Wow. I struggled with who am what am I really?

I'm a, I'm a diaper changer. I'm a a, ugh. What difference am I making? What impact am I making in the world? Oh, well, you're, you're people be, they try to, you're raising your kid and there's nothing better you can do. And yeah, they might be right, but. I could be making more of an impact than changing a diaper.

Like, come on. You know what I mean? And I, it took me a while, but I really had to come back to knowing who I am, what value do I bring to my family, just in my presence, not in my paycheck, not in the glory that I can bring to my house, just by being me, just by my presence. You know what I mean? And when I, when I was able to begin to operate from a place of who I am, not what I do, it changed everything for me.

And I was able to embrace the role and settle in and love it, and, and begin to do things I've never thought I'd be able to do before. You know? Um, and while I'm not gonna sit back and tell you that I'm nailing this whole dad thing, Uh, you know, I certainly, certainly make my mistakes. Like this has been a journey of a lifetime and I've got, I've got about like eight more years left in this gig before I get to go do something else

Jeff: Sure. Just eight. Yeah. Cause that's how it works, right? 18. Yeah. I'm

Brent: over halfway. So, uh, it, it's, there's a reason why we're like, Hey, we're done with the second one cuz I don't want to extend to this contract anymore. , right? Um, but to get to that place through the excruciating torture of somebody like Jack the Ripper.

Now I agree with you that little, that he was Jack the Ripper, like that was almost corny and I'm gonna take out the word almost that was just corny. He could been, it didn't matter who he

Jeff: was. I think it did like it's what it said was, uh, What we see is horrible and evil and bad, the Vons can see some value in.

Okay, cool. Yeah. Also, you could have just had his actions say that it was so corny and unnecessary.

Brent: Don't need that about that. But I don't need a redemption story for Jack the Ripper. No, I, I don't, I don't need a penance for Jack the Ripper. Now he can go on and die and like, I, I don't need any of that.

Like they, it just could have been what it was. This is a very long winded way of saying to get to this message that Babbel on five is delivering, which I find a very Star Trek message, and you pointed this out at 4.5. It did it in such a babbel on five way that is completely opposite from the way that Star Trek would've done it.

I think I'm talking myself into liking this episode more and more, and I would be shocked, Jeff, if we find out that this is not a well liked episode within the fan. I would be utterly shocked. Cuz my guess is it is, and the more we talk about it, the more we've gotten into it. Just in this episode, the more I'm appreciating this, this, uh, this episode and so I'm going to give this one five star Furies.

Holy. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, no. Now keep in mind why I'm saying it because this is such a babble on five way of doing it. Not that it's a babble on five way of doing it. I'm going five star Furies because it did it in such a, a oof way that Star Trek never

Jeff: would've thought to do. I agreed. And I think, and I think our conversation definitely did move the needle for me, especially your thought of this not just being a test, but a but a teaching as well.

That's an entirely new context. That adds a lot to this one still. Like I don't think there's an i I, I will watch believers before I watch this episode again, I. I would watch, I'm gonna say it. Don't do it. I would watch, don't do it, I'm gonna do it. I would watch, don't it, soul Hunter, before I watch this episode again, you're,

Brent: you're outta your mind.

I think you're, you're gonna come back and appreciate this episode a lot more,

Jeff: Jeff. I might, and if I do, awesome. But if I don't, then I'll get to stand on the Soul Hunter comment and feel like a champ. . But let's, you guys can send all

Brent: of your emails to Jeff Babylon five first time.

Jeff: Right. Well, I, I am fascinated though, Brent, to find out where you would want to watch this one again, because right now we are putting together the definitive ranking of season two episodes right now.

Um, our top five, and I guess we're gonna, we're. Based on what used to, we're gonna have to go through the top five. Number one, the long twilight struggle. Number two, the coming of shadows. Number three, erase through dark places. Number four, in the, in the shadow of Zaha Doom. And number five, all alone in the night.

Brent, where do you put comes the inquisitor?

Brent: Well, I thought this was a very B on five episode. I still can't say that I thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Here's a question

Jeff: for you, Jeff. No, I feel better about working with you. Now,

Brent: here's a question for you. If you could reinsert this episode anywhere in the season, does it have to fit right here as a pin ultimate episode between these two, what, what we're assuming next week with the finale and what that's gonna be?

And last week's, could this episode have come before last week's? You have to swap out, or does it have

Jeff: to come right here? The Jaar storyline. Means it has to be here.

Brent: You could, but take that part out. Cause this story is about in Sheridan. So yeah. That, that story. Could we have said that? Where, how far back could we have actually put this in the, in this

Jeff: season?

I think, and I'm actually gonna look at our little list here

Brent: because I'm not, I'm not entirely sure that you can't,

Jeff: uh, you can put it much earlier. Yeah. The boom season two. I would probably, if I, if I were able to, I would have put this one maybe right after in the shadow of Zaha Doom. In the shadow, Zaha Doo.

Comes the inquisitor, knives, confessions, and lamentations. Cause in the shadow of Zaha Doom, that's where we learned all the Ko vlan first one stuff. Without that context, him saying We're gonna come send an inquisitor is kind like, who

Brent: the heck are you, dude? I mean, that, that was when Sheridan and Koler were like, Hey, let's start to get to know each other and spend more time together.

Right? Yeah.

Jeff: And, and and Kosh gave, like he gave it away. This is who we are. This is what happened. So I think this could have happened right after in the shadow of Zaha Doom. Yeah. And

Brent: anytime after the hot box episode, I think this, this particular thing could have happened. So it didn't, didn't have to happen right here.

And I would venture to say that if it had happened before last week's episode, you might be a little higher on it. Just trying to put some objectivity. Yeah.

Jeff: Cause it's the craft American cheese in my beautiful sourdough sandwich. it still is even after our discussion. Right, right.

Brent: Um, So that being said, where do I wanna watch this

Jeff: one?

Where do you wanna watch it? Where does it rank? Where would I watch? Right. There's more, there's more to the ranking than just what we'd wanna watch. Right. Uh, I'll just point out we do have an empty, we do have an empty slot down at number 20. Yeah. It's not

Brent: going there. Sorry. Okay. It's not going down. I, in fact, I would venture to say that where we slot this one in, all the other ones can just go in and fill up into that empty slot because my guess is next week is gonna find itself rather high on the list so it hit

Jeff: better

Yes. The season

Brent: finale, um, I think I am going to place this episode


this could go up or down one or two spots either way for me. Okay. So I'm gonna drop this right in the. I'm gonna place this one in at number 13 between a spider and the web and geometry of shadows. And so for those of you out there, uh, looking as, as, uh, Jeff updates our list over there, it's the long twilight struggle at number one going down the coming of shadows race through dark places, and the shadows a hot doom.

And all alone in the night are ones through five. Uh, we have divided loyalties, confessions and lamentations, hunter prey, knives, and soulmates at five through 10. And then we're gonna have points of departure. A spider in the web comes the inquisitor geometry of shadows and groos as 11 through 15, and then all the other ones.

Jeff: This is the only, I'll, I'll just ask you this one question. I can't Sure. Like your, your ranking is final, but uh, geometry of shadows is techno majors. Yeah. Okay. Just wanted, which

Brent: was, which was the only good part about that episode. But it was such a good part. It was so cool. I want more techno MAs. I really want more techno majors, but that was the only good part of that, that episode.


Jeff: We'll find out. Um,

well that is it then for comes the Inquisitor next week, Brent. We're watching the season two finale. Season two finale. It's a big deal. It's a really big deal. Yeah. It's called The Fall of Night. All we know, we know two things about this episode. We know it's called the Fall of Night, and we know it's the season two finale.

I guess we know three things. We also know it was renewed for a third season, so we know that there's one that comes after this, but just knowing those three things, brand, this is the game that we love to play at the end of each episode. Yep. What do you think the fall of night is gonna be?

Brent: Well, I mean, I'm gonna take the easy way out on this one.

This is where the Great War has to start. Like we had the Nassari war, that's over the great, and we've been saying we don't think that the Nassari thing is the great war. It's the preamble to the Great War, right? Um, so the great war has to start and the shadows have to come out of hiding. Now, that actually works for me because, you know, you know the only place that shadows can actually exist.

Jeff, where's that in the light? You can't have shadows in dark. That's right. Shadows can only exist in the light. So when Night falls, right, right. Night is literally one big. , right? Yeah. Like that's all nighttime really is, it's just a big

Jeff: shadow. We were, yeah. It's the sun being blocked and we're in the shadow of the sun.

Exactly. Or the shadow of the earth or Yeah. Yeah. Or the movie something are not an astronomer. I don't know. Sure.

Brent: Um, so to me, this one is the Great War starting. The Shadows are coming out of hiding and they're full force, like right in front of us. Um, that and the fact that, you know, it's a season finale.

They've told us the entire season that this is the year that the Great War comes upon us, and it's gonna be New Year's Eve here in this last episode, so we better get to it.

Jeff: I'm not, I'm not too far off from you a little bit though. So I think that the Great War is gonna start, but the Great War is gonna start as an extension of the Cent, just aggression that. Jaar was talking about when he was street preacher guy. And that is gonna end up somehow pulling both Earth and Menari in.

I think that lawn's gonna get a little overzealous with getting the shadows going. Places they're gonna take out like a Menari Cruiser, something like that, that pulls them bar and that'll lead Thelen and uh, petition. And then Earth will come in on the side of Minbar, which will be a big deal. And I think the shadow reveal is literally the last scene of the episode.

Like as it goes out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like almost like, uh, captain Jump Gates activating. Oh, this is a big one. Who, and the shadow comes through and

Brent: it's not gonna end with, it's not gonna end on a freeze frame of his face going,

Jeff: it's not gonna be that one. I don't think so. I don't think it's gonna be that one. And then I think season three is the, is the war.

Brent: I, I, yeah. I like, I like, I like that I. I think that's

Jeff: how it's gonna go. We'll find out and we'll find out about that next week. But after next week, Brent, we have one of our, we're only gonna have a handful of these special episodes.

Five of 'em. I guess that's all. We're gonna have a season wrapup, a season two wrapup, two weeks, two weeks from now. It's crazy. What are we doing in that wrap up that's gonna be super awesome outside of like, talking about our rankings and things that we

Brent: like. I was gonna say we're, we're gonna revisit our entire ranking one more time and decide if we need to move anything up or down.

And Jeff might have a few to , he might have a few more things to say about this particular episode.

Jeff: Let's talk about this inquisitive thing just a little bit.

Brent: Um, let's see. We're gonna do that. Uh, we're gonna talk about favorite characters, maybe, I don't know, we haven't really actually talked about what all we're going to talk about at all.

Yeah. Um, we'll probably, we'll probably revisit the up and down nature of this episode, but the one cool thing we're really gonna do is we're gonna give away. This awesome Captain Sheridan action figure, which can be yours folks, if you just email us in a screenshot or tweet at us, DM us, whatever, smoke signal us, I don't care.

However you can get it to us. Let us know that you send in a review and you're entered in to get this super awesome dope, uh, thing that I can't put back on my wall

Jeff: right now. That's an action figure is what that is. Yes, I was, I was gonna say, if they can send a smoke signal, they win, period. If they can get the review to us by, but then I thought the last thing we need is people burning things down, uh, in the world right now.

So don't, don't send a smoke signal. Yeah, there's enough burning around us right now. Hey, listen, thank you everyone for joining us. We mean so much to us and we love being able to talk about Babbel on five with each other and share that conversation with you. If you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and if you haven.

Just because Brent told you to a minute ago, head to Apple podcast. Leave us a review, screenshot that bad boy Babylon five first, the number five, the word first at Babylon, first on Twitter. Send us a screenshot of that review and you'll be put in that drawing for that. Awesome. Awesome. John Sheridan.

Oh, Brent. Until next time. Hey, Jeff. Yeah, yeah. Brent,

Brent: who

Jeff: are you? Yeah, I am, I am not doing this. . I've, uh, I've gone through enough just having to watch and then talk about this episode. Again, peace and long life.