Confessions and Lamentations | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. For the second time. Brent, camera's over here. Am I just doing this? No. No? I'm not doing this episode. Do we have to do this episode? No, no, I refuse. We were texting earlier, and you're like, I don't want to watch it. I'm like, I don't want to watch it either, but this is literally our job. No. No, I'm not. I'm not. No. No. Listen, this kid is precious. He is precious. It's a she. JMS is a murderer. I'm not doing this episode, Jeffrey Akin. Not going to happen.

[1:16] Can I make a deal with you? 100% we'll skip the part with the kid. We can't do that because if we're going to do the show, we got to do the show. I know. I wasn't going to do it anyway. I was just going to do it enough to get you to come in and start the show. And then you'd be like, oh, I want to watch it. It's so – this is such a compelling – it is a compelling episode. It's a great episode.

[1:38] I also don't want to watch it either. Can we just –, Club 65, this thing, Jeff, we don't talk about club 65 outside of club 65. That's the whole point. Why can't we just people out there wondering what club 65 is? We're not going to tell you. Can we just do it? You got to find it on your own. Do it. Here's the thing. If you think you know what it is, then you don't know. You don't. You don't. If you, if you do know, then, you know, and we don't talk about it. We don't tell people you just got to find it on your own when you find it. And it's right there to be had by everyone who, who finds it. So, all right, well, we'll do the thing. This is Babylon 5 for the second time, and my name is Brent Allen. It is, and my name's Jeff Aiken. We, this week, Brent, we're going to skip over all the niceties. Let's get right into this one. We're watching Confessions and Lamentations for the second time. I remember thinking this episode was brilliant, masterful, amazing, and I hated it with every single fiber of my being. I declared, yeah. No, go ahead. I said, I declared I would never watch this episode again. You're a liar because you're about to. I know. I know.

[2:47] What about you? Are you also a liar? I don't know. Did I declare that I would never watch this episode again? You did. Yeah. Then yes, I'm a big fat liar. One nicety we do have to observe are spoiler warning. For anyone out there who hasn't seen this show for the first time, this is your huge spoiler warning. Anything from any part in the franchise, any point in the series, is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about because this is our second watch, not our first watch. And if you haven't seen this show for the first time, stop this episode right now. You've already been spoiled just a little bit and go back and watch our spoil free version of Babylon five for the first time where Jeff and I were completely unspoiled and you can join us for that as well. That being said, what did I remember about this episode? I hate this episode. Yeah. It's also a very good episode. This episode was particularly relevant on our last watch. being that we were in COVID.

[3:39] But JMS kills another kid does. This is one of those episodes that everybody needs to watch and feel it down in their core to their bones. Jeff, one thing, and you and I were talking about this just a little bit before we came on mic. This episode was very relevant last time because we watched it during the middle of the COVID pandemic. Yeah, right in the middle of the response. I mean, we were right in the middle of all of that. This episode just hit hard. You and I are going to make a concerted effort not to rehash all of that old stuff and view this through a 2025. This is when we're recording it is in 2025. So a few years later through this lens of our current life and being able to look back at the pandemic and the response to the pandemic and the things that might have been a little overboard, the things that maybe were underboard, the things that were misreported, the things that were reported correctly. We're going to try to look at it through through some of those eyes and really what JMS was trying to say himself the first time around. And I went back. I listened to our first time episode and I'm going to touch on a little bit of some of the diatribes we ran into, but I'm not going to spend a lot of time on them. I'm going to kind of just discuss some of the other things we came out of this episode for us.

[4:51] But I said that this is what we thought infection was going to be. Oh, yeah. But we took it to an entirely new level. But they took it to an entirely new level. And then I said a thing that I thought was great. This episode is a reflection of what happened in the past. It's a retelling of our present. And I am infuriated that this is going to be our future as well. Yeah. This episode made me so mad that I was actually aligned with Dr. Franklin. Like it knocked me that far around. Yeah, I said, I said exactly. I said, this episode pissed me off and it was perfect.

[5:30] You agreed. You said Dr. Franklin was right. In fact, you changed your little name. We used to have little name badges on our video. You changed it to Dr. Franklin was right. Dr. Franklin was right. You said it was so well done. It hit all the emotional points it was trying to, and it hit him hard. Back on Beam Me Up, a Star Trek podcast, you would often give episodes an AKA. And so you AKA'd this episode as Dr. Franklin's Kobayashi Maru. Oh, I like that. We were both, we both said that the second we saw that little kid on screen, we knew she was going to die. Is it a she? I'm pretty sure. Yeah, pretty sure it's a she. We had a cool t-shirt idea in this one. There's this whole thing where uh sheridan and delen have their third date uh and we eat needs florn but uh it's that episode yeah yeah and so we had a t-shirt idea of eat like a minbari i like it we should still do that one yep we're gonna sell our babylon five for the first time meal plan diet plan which was eat like a minbari and you'll lose all of the pounds all of it yeah and uh yeah this was peak minbari episode is what we kind of decided minbari lived to serve and we were really impressed with how this played out in Delenn. This was just an incredible Delenn episode. We talked quite a bit about that.

[6:49] We also talked quite a bit about the idea of babylon five for the second time oh yeah yep, said it'd be incredible to go back watch all the stuff we actually talked about it for quite a while but here we are again we said yeah but we will skip this episode if if we do this for the second time time and time again we are we are liars yeah there's a lot more we talked about uh on the podcast if you want to go check it out yourself we uh i think i don't know that i've ever been as fired up on a recording as i was in that one lots of vim and vinegar coming out of aiken on that one understandable we had a lot to say on this one brent i imagine jms did as well what did you find yeah you know sometimes jms has a lot to say sometimes he doesn't, this one he had a lot to say okay yeah buckle in fun fact did you know the word markab is arabic for the word boat? I did not know that. There you go. And a shwayat adobe. I understand a little Arabic. I just said a little Arabic. And about a shwayat adobe. There you go. I understand a little Arabic. Not that. Sure. Apparently, this episode came out around the time that, you know, you get that like deep impact Armageddon phenomenon happening where multiple people produce the same show or the same movie multiple times. Right.

[8:13] Apparently that had happened because Outbreak had come out around the time that this episode aired.

[8:20] Voyager had done an Outbreak episode, I guess. I'm trying to remember which one that would have been. well the vidians they had all their vidian stuff going on early maybe that was it yeah yeah he doesn't elaborate just said voyager hadn't aired er hadn't said what they were gonna do i guess er had a big outbreak episode or something i never watched er but anyway here's what he says he says um you know plague stories are very trendy these days this this somebody had said this to him and here's his response you know next time i'm gonna try to locate every other producer in town and see what they plan to produce so i can plan accordingly smart he said if i had known there'd to be such a glut, well, I probably would have done it anyway. Also, he said the use of the Mark Habs was definitely not a reference to Scientology in any way, shape or form. Absolutely positively, no Scientology link or reference in the name Mark. I find the organization generally abhorrent. Oh, okay. Yeah. I had no idea that Scientologists use an alien group called Mark. Hab and frankly, I would have changed it. Had I known. Yeah. I had no idea that either.

[9:23] Mm hmm. Jeff, I have a question. What do you think the general response by the public to this episode was? I am not going to answer that question because I know the answer to it. But you would think there'd be a lot of outrage around this one. There would. But interestingly enough, after this episode had aired, they didn't receive a single negative response, which tended to be the case with nearly all of the episodes that they produced that touched on controversial subjects. Wild. Lots of positive responses from every side of the political spectrum. Not a lot of negative feedback if any and in retrospect i think this was due to the fact that we went out of our way to be even-handed respectful and fair in our storytelling he says which reinforces my theory that american audiences don't need to be coddled or written down to or protected from controversial subjects they just need to know that the issues are being treated honestly a flippant men agreed yeah jeff were we negative in our response no i don't yeah i don't I don't want it and I don't want anything to come off it's not that this is I I will repeat this is not a bad episode this is a good episode everybody should watch it oh yeah this is an important episode it's just heavy we were negative towards culture and society we loved the artistry and the storytelling of this episode.

[10:35] Great. I like that. Apparently, there were some folks saying that what this was talking about, what this episode was a response to, was the idea that the Marcaps, I guess, are a substitute for Americans in this way. And so what we were saying was, or what JMS was trying, what they were saying that JMS was trying to say was that Americans were saying that AIDS was from God, was a punishment from God. Yeah, we heard that. I remember hearing that as a kid. JMS says, nay, nay, it's not AIDS. It's the Black Death. because people in history did say that the black death was a punishment from God. That's what I was talking about. Not AIDS. Stop letting your modern interpretation of stuff color history. This is nothing to do with that over there. Wow. Turns out you interpreted that on top of something that I did. It's not what I said. Don't hold me accountable or liable for what you misinterpreted me to say.

[11:26] Man, I wish I would have had this about three months ago. Oh, yeah. That would be good. But also, also, like, isn't that a thing? Like all the big plagues of time, all the big diseases we found a way to say is a punishment from God. Well, I mean, isn't anything from God, honestly, when you can't explain it? Yeah. I mean, it doesn't always seem to be a punishment. A lot of times. Well, that's how you that's how you explain the bad stuff, because it couldn't possibly be that we were exactly bad or caused it ourselves out of our hands. It's just happening to us. Yeah. Yeah. Jeff, did you know that they had a medical advisor on the show? No, they did. His name was Tom. And Tom, his main his main comment on this episode was that there is a notion that a virus can't pass from one species to another. And his comment was, well, we have yet to contact one single other alien life form to even make this analysis. We don't know for a fact that their biology would be radically different than our own. Until we actually make contact, it's just as likely as it is not. That's pretty fair. Which is basically the Schrodinger's cat of disease spreading through multiple species. Uh-huh.

[12:34] I like this. He says, you know, this episode on one level indicates that we really are crazy over here at Babylon 5. Here, we developed this race for nearly two years. We developed their culture. We mentioned them predominantly, prominently in the last episode. Talked about them a lot. we had them speak before the full council in the long dark we spent substantial amounts of money making them the single biggest alien group that they've got like in costumes and makeup right said some of the group shots had 40 or 50 or more mark habs all in full prosthetics and costumes and now never to be seen again that's so hilarious because in our episode at one point you're like hey i might have missed something but like did they just make these people up for this episode I've never seen them before once. And I was like, dude, last week, last week, all the way back, they've spoken for the league. They've done all these things. Like, yeah, I didn't. Never seen them before. Did we know that their name was Markab? Yep. See, even at this point, I'm sure we said Markab last week. I think so, yeah. But they've been mentioned. They probably have. Kind of a big deal.

[13:44] I know that now. And you know what? Now that I know what they are, like, I've been able to point them out on the second watch because i'm like drossy the bricuri the markab yep game i even remember fish lady oh the game yeah the game yeah i remember the fish face lady from the first one you know so i could i don't even know the name of their species but whatever what is it jeff uh it's like ab but something or whatever nope you fail you fail because you know right, No, I don't. You just can't rattle it off. If you would have said anything with confidence, I'd have been like, okay, cool. Right. I have no idea. You could have lied to me. I was going to call them Abydosians, but that's a whole different series. That one I would have said no. Last week I would have said no. He actually spoke to somebody at the CDC about this episode and said, actually, hypothetically speaking, the sudden eruption of a disease like this is possible. However, it likely depends on various circumstances. A particularly aggressive disease could perform very much like what is described in this episode. Look at that. Okay. I don't think that this is hypothetical. Yeah. It was real life. And probably has been a couple of times through history. And abide. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about the measles right now. You could be.

[14:58] Could be. Could be talking about smallpox. Yeah. But they didn't erupt like this disease. Even the meat, like they haven't erupted like this disease did. Anyway, hey, Katarina. I was close, by the way. JMS. Nia got us in the chat. See, I was close. I almost rattled it off. Yeah, yeah. You still failed. 80%. They joked a few times about having a mass burial for the Mar-Cab and all of their prosthetics behind the studio.

[15:22] But it's probably their environmental person who's like, yeah, no, we can't do that. I wish they hadn't joked. I wish they hadn't joked. All right. I got one more. And then I've got a couple that we'll talk about during the episode. This last one, JMS simply says this. Anytime there's a big disease, we, the collective we, get stupid. The same exact thing happened with the Black Plague, as was mentioned in the episode. Instead of blaming gays, the leaders of the time bleed the Jews and the lepers. The whole point of this episode is to drop politics and scapegoating, whichever disease happens to be next. There is always a next focus on the problem the disease i read stop blaming stop blaming the blame.

[16:06] I read that in the during the black plague people thought it was cats cats had something to do with it and so they were killing cats did have something to do with yeah they were actually killing the rats that were actually spreading the disease.

[16:18] But people were killing the cats thinking it was that. So they were actually contributing to the spread. Yes. Yeah. Do you remember what it actually was?

[16:28] It was fleas. Oh, okay. It was fleas that were on rats. And so when they started killing the cats, the rats started taking over and the fleas took over as well. And they started biting people. And that's how it spread the Black Plague. Oh, look at that. But because they went, oh, it's cats. We're going to kill the cats. There was an old lady who swallowed a flea wow there you go you go like that what do you say we watch this thing no it's okay to say no let's not right i guess we have to let's put on our professionalisms and let's do this thing if you are joining us for the very first time i have no idea what in the actual thinking watching this one first wow but every episode is probably somebody's first so hey welcome this is what's about to happen brent stop stop stop stop let me clarify if this is your first time watching this is just a really hard episode to watch we have 40 other episodes already on deck you guys can go back and watch there's also 111 of the first time watch that we did okay so listen any of those other ones would be probably a better first watch rather than this one maybe with the exception of late delivery from avalon stay away from that one They just don't watch it at all. It's not worth it. Also, don't watch Sleeping in Light if this is your first one either. Don't, don't, don't, don't go there. You haven't earned it yet. It's not for you. Carry on, Jeff.

[17:55] So Brett is going to begrudgingly pull the episode up. We're going to watch it. We'll talk about it probably during the episode. React to it, whatever. We will chop that bad boy up, put it onto YouTube and a reaction video style sort of a thing. If you want to see the full and unedited version, that's going to be like, I don't know why you would. But if you did, you know what? You can go watch it at our Patreon page. There's a ton of other really cool stuff there. Go watch all the other stuff. Exactly. There's so much else there you can watch. I love how we're just actively telling people to stop watching this show. This is a good episode, and if you haven't seen it, you need to see this episode. Agreed. This is a must-watch for life. It's just hard. We have just put our proverbial bunny suits on and are about to step into this thing. If you want to see the full and edited version of that, it's at our Patreon page. Patreon.com slash badnerds. And if you're listening to us on the audio podcasting app, and you're still with us at this point, Hey, listen, you're going to catch all that audio from the YouTube.

[18:54] Jeff and I are really going to, we're promising and we're doing our best not to crap on this episode. I think it's just the dread of knowing where this episode's going. Yeah. It's like you go in for surgery and you're like, it's going to be so great. I'm going to be so healthy and good afterwards, but I don't want to go through the surgery. I want to go to heaven so badly. I don't want to die. Let this cup pass from me. Yes, exactly. But nevertheless not my will but yours be done fine your will be done folks we shall watch.

[19:26] Confessions and limitations accessing file i thought zeta squadron was on break it is but some time ago keffer saw or who thought he saw something in hyperspace a ship of some kind unknown configuration so he's been spending some of his free time looking for that's like almost three months ago that happened tell lieutenant keffer so he's on his free time and he can take I think a Star Fury out, it will. From now on, his fighter is to be recharged and ready to go within the hour. That doesn't seem like a good use of station resources, you know? Maybe he has to pay for the fuel or something. Station policy. All deaths have to be verified by station personnel in cases of death by natural causes. His family is quite content with my diagnosis. One might only wish that you would extend me the same courtesy. I wonder who this actor is, because he's really good. Brought that up in the council chambers chat earlier. Look, Lazarin, this is not about courtesy, it's not about respect. The ombudsman from season one. Oh, is it really? Interesting. I think I may faint. Nevertheless, this is the fourth dead Markab in three days. All by natural causes. Now statistically, this is way out of proportion. Stephen, surely you're not suggesting foul play. I'm not suggesting anything. I just want more information. Depending on any other findings, I'll formally accept your certificate of death. However, I do reserve the right to run a few tests just to be sure.

[20:48] This is a really intentional scene, him blowing out multiple candles. JMS talks about how he uses light and candles specifically to talk about life and goodness and things like that. So him blowing out multiple candles was, hey, this isn't over yet. Okay. I would have just assumed life is being extinguished. That too. Foreshadowing of the end of the show the car t is a civilian transporter left the mark cab homeworld nine days ago i've linked her homing beacon onto your scanners so you shouldn't have a hard time finding her just one more thing the captain wants a moratorium on your little expeditions into hyperspace come on commander it's on my own time that's not the issue things are getting a little nuts around here right now you should know that better than anyone else but there's something out there yes there is there's something out there there's also something in here there's something in here is me giving you a direct order commander if there's some part of that sentence that you If you don't understand, Lieutenant, I'd be happy to explain it to you over the next four months. We'll be watching Zeta Squadron go on missions without you. Understood. We'll be back in a few hours. Yeah. I love how she just like literally was like, there's some existential threat out there in hyperspace. There's also me. After you treated me to human style food, it seemed only fair to... Human style food. I near spent the last two days preparing the meal. A throwback. Registering no life signs aboard the target vessel. They did. Check again. There's supposed to be over 200 more cabs on board that thing. Got confirmed.

[22:09] Forms but you said no life life forms but not life signs you can see the math like going across the screen they're all dead but they're good oh i would not have made that connection you said life form not life signs and i wouldn't have said it out loud like that it's just been like he just has to he's an external processor is there a problem i don't know do you watch Does Richard Beggs act his butt off in this episode? To his credit, he acts his butt off all the time. He really does. But this is the killer. I remember being very impressed. We're putting the transport in for inspection. Recommend full medical team. And you better let the captain know I've got an ugly feeling about this. All right, Luke. I'm supposed to let the captain know you have an ugly feeling? Well, this ship was found floating dead in space. Now, we have to have a right to privacy. You mean the right to hide the truth? What the hell did you think you were doing? You don't want us to board that ship because you suspect the same thing that I do. Which is? We've had four dead Markev in the past three days. Dr. Lazarin has certified them all, death by natural causes. Nothing jumped out about them in a cursory autopsy, so I let it go. But I just finished a more detailed examination of the bodies. We're all killed by some kind of plague or infectious disease that was brought onto the station by your people. Now I want to know how terminal and how contagious. I feel like calling it a plague right now is a little premature until he said that. 100%.

[23:32] Contagious you know in this series we saw grow pose a couple of weeks ago and it made a big scene of showing the the grow pose who had been killed in war uh this is a another scene we see quite a bit in in drama and sci-fi and stuff whenever there's war right just this is the cost of war i'm really struck in this moment that no one here fought anything this was this is just natural the natural course of a of a disease and it's just laying people out like this it's a pretty powerful scene i think lazarin you are a doctor you know as well as i do that diseases they can go dormant for years or centuries they can tell you they're dormant come back at you out of nowhere why weren't preparations made over time it became more than just a disease it became i don't know a legend a specter used to frighten children into behaving be good or the dark angel will bring you the curse of Drafa. That is messed up. Only the immoral would ever get it. Be good or you will die a horrible death. Stephen, right? Brought upon you by the gods. The first new case of Drafa was detected nearly a year ago. The family was so scandalized by it that they lied about what killed him. By then, several of them had become infected. But because they believed that they were moral, they were sure they would not be touched. So they started to go out amongst the people. The disease began to spread.

[24:51] Each new infection was accompanied by silence and fear and the assumption that they were immune. If you knew about this a year ago, why didn't you come to me? Shame. Why did you try to block our examination of the ship? We could have helped. Because I was forbidden. Because we were ordered to remain silent. Our leaders were afraid that people would take the disease as a sign from the gods that we had fallen from grace. They were afraid they would be voted out for attacking the public. Oh my God. They were afraid. Afraid they would be voted out.

[25:21] I have so much I could say. I'm not going to right now. As I'll say anytime you choose votes over a life you've made the wrong choice Some of us have been working to find a cure without enough money or resources. They don't even want, as if the very subject makes them dirty. In all the work you've done, is there any indication as to whether or not the disease is infectious beyond your own species? I don't know. I love that Franklin immediately goes big picture. Gods forgive me. I do not know. Shame. Dude, shame. Imagine a world without shame. That's all this is. You can dress it up and call it religion or whatever, but ultimately they assigned shame to this disease, and hundreds of years later, It's still pervasive to the point that, well, we better just keep our mouths shut and let these people die because, I mean, it'd be shameful if anyone knew this was happening. Well, and you know who acts like that? Young teenagers. Because for them, what other people think of them is of the ultimate importance at that particular phase of their life. Turns out that sticks with people as they get older. Yeah. Also, these are the things where I'm very much reminded of a great line from Just the seminal cultural touchstone film, Men in Black. Okay. The individual is smart. The individual can handle it. But people are dumb, stupid, and arrogant. So true. So true.

[26:50] Buddy, baby. Right. Immediately, we're like, oh, that's going to die. Look at you chubby cheeks. I just want to exit. I don't know. Baby. First off, why is this kid just walking around Babylon 5 on their own? I don't want to talk about shame. Where are that kid's parents? Jeff, this is the mid-90s. What were kids this age doing in the mid-90s? You are very late for food. She is very upset. They were doing exactly this, actually. Papa... Papa, wake up. Yeah, Papa, don't preach no more. Donk.

[27:30] The next 24 hours are absolutely critical if we're going to control the spread of this disease. Dr. Lazarin says the incubation period can last several weeks or just a few days. Until then, it's absolutely invisible. Once symptoms appear, it expires inside 24 hours. And there's no cure? No, not yet. Now, the problem is between the time the disease shows up... You know what I love? ...determination. I love Franklin's chutzpah. Yeah. I love his confidence there. There's no cure. Nope. Not yet. Right. We're working on it. But I'm on the case now. One of the things we talked about in the first time was how so many of the things that we despised about Dr. Franklin uniquely qualified him to just rock it in this position. You know, oh, I'm going to do it. I've got this. Hey, no, just shut up and listen to me. Those are things we would deride him for all the time. But in this situation, it's exactly what you need. Go Franklin. Yeah. If it's airborne, given that all the air in here is recycled, the entire station might be infected.

[28:29] Recycled and filtered? Yeah, but it's not filtered to a level to stop a virus necessarily. Why? Doctor, it's your journey. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You go into a hospital, do you know what kind of air is filtered through a hospital? It's the cleanest air you're ever going to breathe. Ever. What kind of air you got filtering around on a submarine, Jeff? Some of the cleanest you'll ever breathe. Breathe scrubbed with amine, actually. Okay. You're telling me on a space station with all the stuff that they have, they're not scrubbing those air filters. What kind of air do you think they're breathing on the International Space Station right now? What kind of air do they breathe in any space shuttle out there? What kind of air do you think they're breathing in the brown sector? They're not cleaning that air. The stuff that's going into the filters and coming out probably they are. You get to blue sector, something like that, that's fully filtered as it comes out. it's expensive to clean air like that. You got a station that big. Yeah. And if not, then you're in a Petri dish. You don't have the dilution of outside.

[29:25] This is an outrage. I will not have my people treated in this fashion. Poked, prodded, accused. Ambassador Fashar. You are spreading hysteria and fear about my people. That is totally unwarranted. On top of that, you're disgracing good and decent people by implying they're unclean, immoral. No one said anything of the kind. Absolute implication. How do I know this isn't a conspiracy on the part of your world to destroy my people? Okay, here we go. Let's say this for what it is. Truth be told, this has nothing to do with implying that you're immoral, that plot replying that you're unworthy with implying any of that. You know what this has to do with? I don't want to. Yeah, exactly. I don't. How do I know you're not going to try to take over my world? Oh, I'm sorry. How do I know you're not going to take all my money? How do I know that you're not going to try to tell me to do something that I don't want to do? That's the thing. How are you going to? It's really just that. Are you going to make me uncomfortable? Yeah, I don't want to. It's a, I don't.

[30:25] It's really just that but i wanted to warn you the disease may be spreading into the general population we are the pure if we believe then the dark angel of drapa will pass over.

[30:41] You probably want to be like there's no way in the 23rd century people would be buying this stuff but i would have also said the same thing about the 21st so here's the thing you have a few leaders of the markab who are making a big stink about this and the rest are just people just following along they're just listening like that little kid hey i guess where i'm supposed to go now oh yeah you you guys and hey it tickles my ears that you they're they're being whatever so yeah let's let's go yeah let's go and some of them are regular people getting riled up because of what because you know it's it's you find that um you find that rallying point right but like it's it's the politician thing yeah you know i'm gonna rile you up i'm gonna we watched this in stargate like with the witch burning episode if you remember when i get you riled up everybody's gonna follow me you know that's all that's all this is that's all it was it's all that we witnessed in real time i have the most experience with the disease i will go into the isolab and perform the autopsy dr lazarin and once finished i will stay inside the isolab is hermetically sealed if I am contaminated it will not get through the airlock it will give me a chance to do something good Steven give me that much I love this and this guy especially because like he definitely held on to part of the legend and the mythology around everything right but through reality he's like yeah it's wrong and I want to be part of the solution let's get to work.

[32:08] Shall we and we've had three more franklin looking at him with admiration like that was it's getting ugly out there that was hero level stuff some of the more extreme human and he made the choices solution to the problem make him a hero wipe out the mark abs you wipe out the problem seems we've heard that before how's their quarantine going four thousand out of the estimated five thousand resident mark caps have entered the isolation zone the rest of them either haven't been found yet or they're hiding afraid to take the trip which of course puts them in danger if they're found by the others it's so ridiculous this happens in real life too oh my gosh there's this disease and I'm scared of this disease. So I'm going to go beat up the people who get the disease. Well, but that's the whole point of this deal. It's scapegoating. Oh, it's that country over there. Oh, it's those people in the lab over there. Oh, it's that monkey over there. Oh, it's the cats over here. Oh, it's the, and we have to find somebody to blame because if we take out the person to blame, then it's not going to be an issue anymore. Yeah. Right. I think there's two core things. People are afraid and they want to feel like they're doing something.

[33:06] Those two things put together don't lead to anything good. And real leadership is addressing those, right? Hey, I understand you're afraid. This is what we have going on. This, that, and the other. You want to do something, stay home. Do whatever, give them something to do. You want to do something, go boil water and move it from here to there, whatever. But as long as people have some reassurance and feel that they're contributing, I think that really would minimize so much of just the mob mentality. But you're still telling me what to do. Yeah, exactly. And you're costing me money, and I don't want to stay here and I don't want to do that. Well, I think that we don't want to wear this thing and I don't want to wash my hands when I go to the bathroom and I don't want to not touch my face and I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to. And it's honestly just about what I don't want to do.

[33:51] And by the way, I don't believe you because I don't trust you. And I don't think this is that big of a deal. And here's all the stuff that I can come up with. It's going to justify that thing, even though it's really bad science and it's really ignoring everything, but I don't trust the people anyway. But I trust some of this other stuff, but not this, but this one.

[34:10] We talk about this in detail in our first-time discussion. I'm sorry. I'm trying not to rehash it, Jeff. I know, but it's right there. It's hard not to. I live in this freaking world, though. What can I do for you? This is frontline stuff for me. Yeah. I would like to make a request. Ambassador, we can't let anyone off this station. I would like to be allowed into the isolation zone. I've spoken with Ambassador Fashar, and he's willing to allow us entry. Why? They're in pain, frightened, dying. Minbaria thought that at such a time, the afflicted should be ministered to, comforted. They're not your own people, Delenn. I didn't know that similarity was required for the exercise of compassion. So good. They are afraid. So good. We wish to do what little we can. We? Lanier has asked to accompany me. Delenn, I cannot allow this. I understand the risk, Captain. If the disease is limited only through the markup, we should do all we can. But if it's not, then we must give comfort. Because very soon, we will require it ourselves. You will be exposing yourself to massive contamination. If I let you into that isolation zone, I can't let you out again. I know.

[35:22] I'll tell security to let you through. Thank you. Oh, look at that. And the music underneath. Captain, all life is transitory. If I don't see you again here, I will see you in a little while. The place where no shadows fall. Delenn?

[35:42] When I do see you again, call me John.

[35:46] Aww. I like what he said. When I do. When I do see you again. What I love, this is Delenn at her best. Not Delenn full of bravado and yelling and getting big, but Delenn truly speaking from her heart. And what I especially love about this for her and Lanier, we've talked about it before in other contexts, and Deep Space Nine said it so well. It's easy to be a saint in paradise. Right. You can have highfalutin values and all this kind of stuff when it's easy.

[36:16] Life's good, and I believe these things. It's when it gets hard that it matters. And without hesitation, Delenn was like, this is what I have to go do. Like truly living her values in that. Yeah, people are in pain, people are hurting, and they need to be comforted. Let me go do it. That's what I'm here for. What would be amazing, and I know the logistics of television would make this really hard, but it would be great if she said, we want to do this, and he's like, we? She's like, yeah, me? and all of the other Minbari on this station. Like if it was this like unifying moment, but it's almost more powerful also that it's Delenn, right? Like she's the one. And Lanier is going to go with her. Of course. You know, actually this would be a real cool thing. If this is something that helped get to Lynn back in the good graces of Minbari society, or at least her, her, her fame or her clan, little smaller group, her clan. Yeah.

[37:17] What do you want his side huh shut up come on get out get out of here maybe i'll let you leave with your ribs if there is no side you ignorant i was gonna say that's the that's the deal yeah it's not me versus him we're that's the thing it's never a me versus him we're all in the same boat together i love this scene so much because garibaldi had that moment of pause i could get in but he did it garibaldi doing it too but yeah i'm sorry i interrupted you what you're saying is so dead on and everyone's looking for someone to blame it does seem to be the rule doesn't it analyze the problem choose whichever strategy makes least sense and then do it wow there it is It's right there. Yep. It's dizzy. Seems to confirm it. I felt my throat sore a few minutes ago. Steven, you wanted to examine someone in the early stages of the infection. I think you should run.

[38:14] This is so great of him yeah okay here's the difference i may have kind of the reason that people do is because i don't wanna let's boil it down even further okay you know the real reason why the mark have don't want to do this kind of stuff you know the real reason why people don't want to put on masks or do the things that actually prevent the spread of disease okay because they're being selfish they're only thinking about themselves that's the bottom line They're only thinking about themselves. Now, how that plays out is, I don't want it, right? They're only thinking about themselves. What's great about the doctor, and I bring that up right here, because what the doctor just did is he got outside of himself and what he wanted, and he wasn't thinking about him. He was thinking about conquering the disease. How do we get through this? Crap, I'm here. I'm now the best example of this. he, his mind was bigger than me, than my thing in what I want to do. In the first time discussion, I told this story and I'll tell a shorter version of it, but there was a Catholic priest who in the early days of COVID said, we're, we're all doomed to die. You know, cause we thought that was going to, you know, COVID, if you got it, we thought you were dead, you know, for a while. But this priest said, we're all doomed to die because of that exact reason.

[39:32] In order for this disease to be stopped, we have to think about others. But in our culture, that's not possible. We only think of ourselves and thinking of ourselves will doom us as a society.

[39:45] Well, to that, you know, there was a whole ad campaign in Norway, maybe Switzerland, something, one of those European countries. And the ad campaign, I thought it was brilliant, was I wear my mask for you, you wear your mask for me. That's it. You know, and again, you know, I go back and there's even been a little bit of chatter in our council chambers over here. And I'll point to the mask and people say, oh, it doesn't stop, whatever, whatever, whatever. You're right. The fibers don't stop teeny, teeny, tiny viruses from going through. But you know what they do stop? They stop the air, the molecule, the wet stuff that's spewing out of your mouth, which that virus rides on from getting airborne. The idea of wearing a mask is not to protect you. The idea of wearing a mask is to keep your stuff to you and not let it get spread out. It's not about filtering stuff out. It's about keeping stuff in and keeping your disease here. But, Brett, it makes my glasses fog up, and it's hard to breathe and uncomfortable on my nose. I don't want to feel that. Because it's about you. Sure, because it's about you. But, again, I wear my mask for you. You wear your mask for me. We do it for others. And, again, the difference here is what am I concerned about? Am I concerned about me or I'm concerned about we?

[41:00] Ultimately, it's the difference. And I'll fully recognize, whichever side of this you're going to be on, you'll go find somebody with some letters after their name to make you feel better about what you want to do. It's not going to solve the problem it's not going to cure the disease the best thing you can do at that point if you're on the other side it's just deny that the disease is a thing in the first place ignore it all together, it's not a thing it's no worse than the flu.

[41:25] This isn't really happening Michael makes a great point, the glasses fogging up thing is very annoying and we can cope, it absolutely is.

[41:36] And we will find her for you lanier then is absolutely right here it's not something we do in the west but it's very common in in eastern countries when i lived in asia people mask all the time yeah i'm feeling a little scratchy when they felt bad that's when you feel bad how you mask faith manages what is your name mama mama faith manages sometimes the test is not to find And the answer is to see how you react when you realize there is no answer. Dr. Franklin's Kobayashi Maru. Doctor, we just got the results of the Pachmara autopsy. It's the plague. It jumped species. Oh, that's a good stinger right there.

[42:25] Sims down to Med Lab 2, you take apart that Pachmara inch by inch. There's got to be a reason why they fell sick before the humans or the Narns or anybody else. Now, that similarity may be what we need to crack this thing. Now, go, move. Don't you understand what this means? It means we have more information than we had five minutes ago. And if we're going to beat this thing, we need all the information we can get. Now, I want a complete biogenic comparison of these two groups in an hour, or by God, you're going to have something a hell of a lot worse than the plague to worry about. Now, move! I want it! I appreciate this with Franklin, because, like, this means we could have the... Yeah, you'd have it whether we knew this or not. That's irrelevant. Oh, not yet. I was worried about you. Faith manages.

[43:08] Yeah there's oh yeah she knows what's up listen jms does this just rna sequence to match level one codes and the gut punches the kid yeah he uses the kid to perfection cross analyze my cab yellow blood cells with pacmera green you know what's great about this he makes you care and you care because you care about the kid yeah save your strength lazarus this is what good storytelling does could be could be what could be, i'm sorry no stop saying that i don't think just don't say the finisher sentence right will you give my love to, you see all the things in the background fade away all the the bio readings.

[44:04] Yeah yeah like all right richard you get one take the console in the back like i'll get all I'll shake it like these things are kind of cardboard, man. Cross analysis between Markab yellow cells and Pakmarah green cells complete. Match found. Show me. The risk is confined to those races that use specialized cells to manufacture the chemicals used in neural relays. In the Markabs, the chemical is produced by the yellow cells. In the Pakmarah, it's the green cells. Now, those are the ones targeted by the disease. Now, fortunately, our bodies don't work that way. Given a chance, the disease could mutate into something that could affect us all if we don't... There it is. Yep. So what do we do? Well, we can't destroy the disease, but we can artificially stimulate yellow and green cell production with a series of regular injections. Now, those who receive the injections, over time, will produce stronger cells that are capable of withstanding the disease. All my data shows it should work. Should. So basically training the body to be able to fight against the foreign substance. There's enough to 500 doses to start, but we will have to hurry that red is that now vaccine works.

[45:17] Yes Vaccines don't stop you getting the disease. They just teach your body how to deal with it when it comes in contact with it Open it up.

[45:51] I wonder if Lanier, if Bill Mooney has like artificial tear ducts running underneath his makeup and he can like squeeze more water out. John. I can't cry on command. I've tried. I'm not good at it. Yeah, Ben's right. Christopher Frank deserves so much credit for scoring this scene and making it feel as impactful as it is. So heavy. I want to. I remember a couple episodes back. I think it might have been Shadows of Hadoom.

[46:21] Sheridan was like i refuse to let those narn die cold and alone right and he's like you know we'll triage what we can so even if they're going to die they'll be with somebody what i want to believe if i were in a situation like that we're all sick we know what's coming i would want there to be someone or some reason to sit down and just like can you make this normal like like let's tell some stories let's play a game let's something and so like what i want to play in my head is before that was delen and lanier kind of pulling everyone together and like asking them to tell their stories or sing a cult a song or something like that and just letting them kind of relive those moments and then slowly people.

[47:04] They start dropping off, and she kind of re-centered people on the moment so they could go out just doing something. And I think when I imagine that, we always think of the best Delenn moment being, you're in front of me, the dude's behind me, and rah. I think her, surrounded by those Markhab, and having them tell stories and sing songs is the best Delenn ever. Yeah, I agree. I mean, anytime this Dylan is on, is on camera, you know, the, we are stardust speech. I mean, we love the, that you just referenced. Yeah. But, uh, you know, it's unfortunate. We don't get this a lot post season three. You're right. You know? Um, and it, it's the fair criticism that you levied against Dylan and the treatment of her character that she really just sort of became the side piece. What I'm really interested, Jeff, is to see as we go through our rewatch here, are we right about that? Right. Or actually, is there really more Golden Dillon that we just missed the first time around because we were so focused on other stuff? And I don't know. It's possible that it's there that we just didn't see it.

[48:10] But, yeah, Dillon doing stuff for other folks. This is it. And I'm not talking about staying inside the star wheel and putting one over on Naroon and all that kind of stuff. It's this little – what makes it so amazing is we never see it. And I think that's the thing for us as humans. when you can do the things that no one will ever see and no one will ever know about those are the things that really move the needle that really matter yep hey what do you call two billion dead marcaps planetary redecorating news news gives me the creeps you know i heard it was a four lines poison that place you know how they are skating nothing changes nope, I think that might be the message of this whole thing. Nothing changes. This happened back during the black plague. It happened during the Spanish flu. It happened during COVID. It will happen in the future. Time and time again. Just, this is just how it is and how dumb things are. Jeff Brent. We just finished confessions and limitations for the second time. We did. Honestly, hopefully for the last time. Yeah. I will stand by my original statement. This is an episode everybody needs to see. This is a much must-watched episode for life in every language, in every culture, everywhere around the world. This is a very important episode.

[49:38] That touches everyone regardless of creed or politic, regardless of which side of the line you're born on, regardless of socioeconomic status. It's an episode everybody should watch. Ultimately, it comes down to me versus we. When we watched this the first time, we were very angry. And a lot of the anger stemmed from where we were in time. And there's a lot to be angry about. We said at the end, Dr. Franklin encapsulated it perfectly. Nothing changes. Like we talk about all the time we study history so that we don't repeat it but damn it we repeat it all the time over and over again and i think when we watch it the first time i was i know for me i can say i was hit so heavily by that it was demoralizing and it just was gross and it felt awful and it feels that way in this moment but on this watch i'm choosing to focus on delen and choosing to focus on Lanier that even when everything is lost, there is a way to handle it with grace, compassion.

[50:42] Caring, and love. She made a difference for those 4,000. She's in that room with 4,000 Markab and she made a difference for every single one of them. Yeah. I am clinging to that. At peril to her own self. In no regard. It's fine. Yeah. Yeah. This could cost me my life And I don't even care. Jeff, you know what? You remember the episode of Stargate spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen Stargate or the star episode of Stargate. It was the episode we met Cassandra first season. They think she's a bomb. They know she's a bomb. And so what do they do? They take her down to the, to the bunker and they put her in the bunker and Sam's supposed to leave her there by herself to explode.

[51:21] Minimize all the destruction and death. Sam refuses to, she shuts the door on herself, locking her in with this ticking time bomb that is Cassandra. And then Cassandra doesn't go boom. I mean, she Y2K is this thing. All hype, no bank. Right. And they pull Sam out at the end and she goes, I don't know, sir. I just knew she wasn't going to explode. And they take all the teeth out of her sacrifice there in that moment. The way they handled this one with Dylan is how they should have handled that with Sam. Dylan didn't know. Yeah. No idea. No idea. She did it anyway. Didn't even hesitate. As far as Dylan knew, she was going to get it and she was going to go too. And this was how she chose to go. That's what should have happened with Sam. As far as Sam knew, this is how she was going to go. But she was going to go out being with that little girl and helping that little girl through these final moments of her life. And that was the best mark of her life. That's what happened here with the Lynn. It just so happens that the Mimbari are not affected by this particular disease. Yeah. And so she made it through. And also, they probably didn't even know that for sure until Dr. Franklin told them. It was probably that moment of maybe it's just slower for us, you know, or whatever.

[52:31] But she didn't hesitate at all. And when they're in there, they were doing good, good work and making a difference for people. Mr. Rogers, right? Mr. Rogers has that saying, you know, look for the helpers. When tragedy happens and things, look for the helpers. And I'm just, I don't know what, maybe it's just because of where I'm at in life or whatever. But in fact, a question I'm asked, and I'm sure you are asked at times is, how could you believe in God? Why do you believe in, you know, why are you religious? Because of the helpers. Because of the Delens and the Leneers. If there was no God, if there was nothing, when a tragedy happened, it would just be a tragedy. But from those things, flowers sprout, amazing people come forward. We see the best, the best in those worst times. Here, Delenn was the best. And so I just, yeah, I'm choosing to look at this whole thing in the terms of we're going to have so much more bad stuff happen during our lifetimes, our kids' lifetimes. We're full of bad stuff. But as long as there's a person showing up with compassion and love and grace and being there for people, we're not lost. There's still hope. So look for the helper. Look for the Delenn. Be the helper. Be Delenn. Well said, my friend.

[53:46] Jeff, I'm going to confess. I have a lot, a whole thing written over here about what I really want to say right now. I bet my fear is if I were to say that on the backside of what you just said, we would lose everything that you just said. So I don't want to do that right now. That's fair. Because I think what you just said is so important. And I hope when we pull our promo clips and we put them out on social media, what you just said is a clip because like what Dylan did, what you just said needs to be heard by everybody because it's not about me. It's about we. That's everything. Everything. The only other thing I will say is specifically what JMS said was the message of this episode. Yep. The whole point of this episode is not political.

[54:37] I'm not going to get into that. This episode says that if you make a disease political on either side, you're going to die. You have to set aside all that crap and just deal with the problem. The only side that this episode took was advocating for compassion for those who were afflicted. What you just said about the lens. That's the only thing this episode is saying is acting with compassion, not pointing a finger, not blaming, getting on the side of solving the disease. And for those who are, we're going to have some compassion. regardless if they brought it on themselves or not right but whatever well right we're gonna bring a thing onto ourselves on this one uh you my friend gets to rank this one me yeah yeah you i'm so grateful for this and uh you know we had a thing going through our entire first watch and the first bit of our second watch where we just run through the top five and then we'd rank these wherever and then you started getting all fancy pants and being like oh i understand i know this So I'm going to grab the little range from which Jeff might rank this thing. And I played along. I'm not going to play along this time because I have no idea where you're going to put this thing.

[55:43] We have 17 episodes on the list right now, and I could make an argument for all 18 slots that will exist for this episode. I know where I would likely put it, but I'm very curious where you would, and it's your job. Brent, where are you placing confessions and lamentations? Okay. You know, sometimes an episode is so good, it doesn't matter if there's a message to it or not. It's just a great hour of TV. You want to come back to it again and again. It makes you feel something. does all the stuff, right? Sometimes an episode has such a poignant...

[56:18] Message it doesn't matter that the rest of the episode is crap because the the episode just could be bad but the message is so good that it elevates the episode and it makes it an important episode this episode was expertly written precision crafted technically that honestly you know the worst bit about the acting in this entire episode look it was keffer oh keffer it was yes you're right yeah out in a thing going uh what but you said life bulbs what about life signs like that was the worst part everybody else bruce mira uh jim norton richard biggs garibaldi michael doyle like they were top of their game in this episode the pacing of the episode the the story arc giving you something to latch on to as an audience member making you care making you feel something done to perfection, Jeff. And what this episode is trying to say, honestly, had we not just gone through what we went as a global pandemic just five years ago, as we record this, this would not be nearly as poignant, but because we are watching this in the time that we are, it is, it is the message of this episode is super important. And it's one we would do well not to forget. And unfortunately, you know, unfortunately I would, I would say, you know, By the time the next generation comes up, they will not have experienced what we experienced. And so they will forget and they'll have to learn it again. Much like we did coming off the Spanish flu, right?

[57:45] Unfortunately, I don't think that's the case. This is an episode that is well done. And the message is super important. It will not top Shadow of Zahadim. It will not top Coming of Shadows. It will not top Geometry of Shadows. But it will top and now forward. Wow. And become our new number four. Because it's just that good of an episode. And it means so much. I said, wow. And I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever want to watch this episode again. You know, we said that before, and here we are. And I have an argument on that. I was going to say, I said, I know where I would put it. And it was number four as well. This is where it begins. On our first time watch, this ended as number eight on the season. Simply because other episodes pushed it down, I'm sure. Yeah. But I agree. We said we would never watch this again. I still don't want to ever watch it again. I didn't then. Also, if I hadn't watched it again, I wouldn't have the different perspective on it that I have now. Yeah i would have left with just like f us like we suck and are horrible and nothing is ever gonna change so i mean maybe there's some value in watching it again but not a third time we're done.

[58:50] We're so done at least i'm done at least we're done watching it and then discussing it in podcast form exactly yeah yeah yeah we're so done that we're gonna wrap it up and that's it for confessions and lamentations next week brent we are watching divided loyalties do you remember your prediction for this one i do i said this one has to get back to the narn centauri war it's a londo episode because i think i'm predicting every episode is a londo episode is londo going to be loyal to the centauri and the war or is he going to be loyal to doing what is right, Oh, okay. That's what I said. I thought this was going to build off of the Nightwatch stuff and Psycor encouraging Talia to join the Nightwatch. And ultimately, she'll have to decide if she's Psycor or not. And from that, you started pulling out all the theories. And you were like, what if they ended up assigning Bester to Babylon 5 because of this? And oh, what if through this, they bring back Leta Alexander? Lander. Does Lita come back in this episode? Are you serious? Yeah. You kind of knocked this one out of the park off of mine in a beautiful, beautiful way. It was great. I'm excited. This picture right here. Get this screen guy. Right. That's the one.

[1:00:08] That's the one. Mark. We're going to watch that one next time. Is this Talia's final episode? It is. This is where we get evil Talia. Yep. This is the one. Thank God. and all. We'll talk about it next week, but I was like, I feel like we've seen Talia four times, which is part of why she decided she wanted to move on to other pastors. Let's talk about that more next week right here, same place as we are watching this or listening to this now, so make sure you're subscribed so that you get notifications of all the new stuff that's coming out. Like us, rate us, review us, do all of those cool things. In fact, reviews and things like that that are coming through now, uh, are going to eventually be shared in a pretty cool way, I think. So stay tuned for that and make sure you get those reviews in, uh, one thing you can do for sure. We ask this at the end of every podcast or every episode and really appreciate it when it happens, but please share this show with somebody. It means the absolute world to us. So until next time, I'm going to Jeff. Oh God, man. Nothing changes.