Divided Loyalties | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So we've decided to watch this incredible series here for a second time so we can catch all those things that we could not possibly have caught the first time around. We're picking up those threads, Jeff. Picking up the kernels that got left behind. I feel like there should be a song I'm about to break into. But for the sake of the listening audience, I will refrain. You know, along with those threads, those kernels that we didn't even know JMS was dropping along the way. And, yes, I am seeding this because we're going to talk about this later on in tonight's episode. Along with those kernels that we didn't know that were catching along for the first time, we are also still looking. What are the messages? What are the messages that we now know.

[1:26] We can actually go read the source and say, what did you mean by this? All of those sorts of things. We're looking for things that hold up a mirror to society, things that give us hope that things can be better in the future, or things that maybe just teach us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, Jeff has mentioned, and I have too, I guess, at this point, this is our second watch. Jeff and I have completed the entire series. We've seen the whole thing front to back.

[1:50] We've done some of the spinoff stuff. We've watched extracurricular stuff. That means that from this point forward, anything from any point in the franchise, from any point in the timeline is fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. So this is your spoiler warning. If you have not seen this show before, stop this right now. Don't go forward anymore. Go join our first watch show. We have that just, you know, a playlist back or something like that and catch us there. And then as you go through the show for the first time, trust us, it's much better this way. Eventually you'll want to do your second watch and then pick up with us here and now you can keep going we're watching this week brent divided loyalties for the second time do you remember, what you thought of this one the first time around i liked this episode i really really liked this episode um the biggest thing in fact the only thing that sticks out to me is summed up in two words it's one of the best parts of the entire franchise i feel like we should do writing franchise do what we should do the writing thing again because i think i know those two words well just say it for me okay three two one evil talia absolutely yeah it's evil talk it's one of the best moment and it happened for 90 seconds on screen right.

[3:07] It just, oh, so good. It's so good. Turns out there's a lot of other stuff from this episode. I have no memory of, or I remember it. I just didn't know it was from this episode. The other thing I do remember because it's of course tied to this episode is how completely out of left field, the Talia of on of a thing felt. And we have been tracking this relationship a lot more on our second watch. How about you, Jeff? What do you remember about this first one about this going through the first time? pretty much the exact same thing. I enjoyed it quite a bit. Uh, loved evil Talia. I remember, uh, same at the time I was like, so Talia and like, we, I think we debated if they were actually like together or what's actually happening here. But we, I remember talking about and having the impression of like, what a brilliant way to introduce, you know, this relationship in a way of just like, it just happens, right? Like we just thought it was a fantastic representation and thought it was fantastic. I think I really, really liked this one. Well, Jeff... You don't have to think, buddy. Thank God. You can know.

[4:14] And you want to know how you can know that you can know? How's that? I can tell you because I went back and I listened to our first episode. You did? I did. Go figure. It's awesome. I know, right? Get those numbers up. I just sort of took it upon myself. Yeah.

[4:28] Yeah, that's all we're trying to do. We're just trying to get the download numbers up. I'd start it and stop it and start it and stop it. Just every time, boost it. Actually, that's not how podcasting numbers work at all. At all. No, but it's a good try. I appreciate the effort. Right. Uh, Jeff, no, we, you and I both were very, very high in this episode. We loved this episode like front to back the whole way around. We talked about for a while about how we had kind of crapped all over season two and we, we stumbled over our words a little bit talking about how, uh, we've been hating on, no, I'm not hating on. We've been ultimately, we just came to, we've been very honest about our feelings of season two up to this point, which had not been great. No, had not been not the first time around let's be really clear the first time the first time around yeah yeah and i get listen i fully right i i remember set you and i had these conversations offline of like man what like it just feels like episode after episode we're just dumping on the show but we really like it and you know we again for whatever reasons after grow pose just felt like it really turned a corner for us and it did and it did in a big way um but yeah i know you and i both really I said that this was – I called this one a filler episode not connected to anything else. Okay. Which was it? Yeah. Really? I mean, yes, it was Talia's sign-off, but, I mean, there was the Psycor stuff. There was Sheridan and Dillon have a spot of this. Their relationship goes on to another step.

[5:55] We get whole of van of his whole latent telepath thing coming out of this like there this is more than just a filler episode like there's some some big explorations of stuff that happens here i said this one had a high rewatch value that there's tons and tons of clues because this is a whodunit ultimately this episode is a whodunit yeah it's a murder mystery type deal right and the rewatch value lies in knowing the end and going back to the very beginning and seeing all the threads, all the clues, all the seeds that get laid, almost like this episode is a little microcosm of what you and I are doing as Babylon 5 for the second time as a whole, which is really fun. Yeah. And I can't wait. Knowing how it ends, knowing it's all evil Talia. It's all Talia. It was Talia all along. You and I had to watch this together and hit those threads, hit those things. Speaking of picking up the seeds, you and I spent a long time, a very, very long time discussing the Ivanova-Talia relationship. Okay.

[6:52] And at what point did it go from hey these are just two friends hanging out having a chit chat to oh they're having a sleepover oh no no no no no no not much they are sleeping over like um even to the point of like we were dissecting like okay jeff so you and i are in a bed together we're on a trip we're sharing a bed and i wake up this is you talking and i wake up and i'm like wow i I don't think Brent's in the bed with me. I don't roll over and reach out and touch you and try to feel you. No, I grabbed my phone. I turned my flashlight on and I look and see if you're there. I'm not touching you. Right. I'm like, fair enough. By the way, that is the correct response. If that ever happens. Yeah.

[7:34] Yes, correct. It almost happened when we did that convention. It did. Had to make sure we got the room with two beds, please. Uh-huh. Let's just be clear. I love that man, but we are not that kind of love. I made it.

[7:49] Jeff, I have a question. All right. Okay, because I don't actually know the answer to this. In our episodes, there's an ad break. Yeah. And it's usually you. You did an ad read for us for Patreon. It's our Patreon ad break, okay? It gets dropped in the middle of episodes. we don't we don't plan it in the middle of the episode it just gets dropped in yeah is that ai finding a place to do it or are you manually saying go right here it's the it's the host figuring out they find a spot to do it you can you can choose a place to put it but i just let it figure its thing so they picked a great spot for this one yeah oh they really and if listen if you're if you're not listening to the audio podcast you're not going to understand this so But this is purely on the audio side. I made a Trek reference. A Trek reference. A Treference? Big Trek reference, right? And it goes immediately to the ad break. Like that's where – and it dips out and goes straight to the ad break. Goes through the ad, comes back on. And the very first thing you hear when it comes up on the other side is –.

[8:53] Such a great thing to come out of an ad break into right i was like oh my gosh that was that was an interesting place to hit that cut yeah i wasn't already upset that i was getting trying to get sold something and then you got to hit me with this right right uh but speaking of the the vanaventalia stuff like i i talked about how i didn't see it coming at all you know and through the second watch you and i have talked about like is there uh uh sexual overtones is there is there.

[9:20] Sexual tension between these two for episodes now where has that been and you've you feel like you've been tracking it a lot more now i say you're reading into it because i don't think it's really been there like there i think there was one spot maybe a couple weeks ago i was like okay i can kind of see that one but outside of that i don't think it's really been there you you've been kind of like yeah that's it that's it and i think it's because it's because i, know i think if you didn't know you wouldn't pick up on any of it we actually have experimental proof of that concept right yeah if you don't know you're not picking up on it i'm sorry i just saw this i'm assuming this is talking about you and i being in a in a bed together nia's like that is not what happens in my bad nerds fanfic you get that at patreon.com slash bad nerds fanfic i love you guys hey speaking of fanfic jeff in our episode you came up with what has to be one of my favorite t-shirt design ideas. Really? We need to make this, we never made this happen, but we need to make this happen. We have so many shirts we have to make happen. Put this on the actual list. I know we have a list somewhere, but put this on the list. You're talking about after, this was, it was actually the way you ended your recap. Talking about Lita looking at Kaush and getting to see him naked again. Okay. And you go, cause once you go Vorlon, you'll never go human. I remember that. So dumb.

[10:45] Dumb but it's it'd be such a great you just you just have a picture of lita and kosh like in silhouette just once you go hew borlon you never go human oh my gosh absolutely put a little bad nerds thing on the side here you go we dug so hard for some of the stuff in those recaps wow, yeah yeah absolutely absolutely you asked a question you wanted to know what did lita see when she looked at kosh jeff i need you to sit back put your seatbelt on okay i'm gonna, read you my transcription almost word for word of what you said. Okay. All right. You, what does lead to see? I said, is he like a drug? Okay. You know, like she sees it and like it, it feeds the, the, the hippocampus, which releases the oxytocin in her body. And, and it's, it's like a hit of like a drug. We, you know, um, just visually. Right. You said, what, what if whatever it is that you see is what you think you want to see like whatever your version of god is or like if you ever saw an angel wouldn't you do what you needed to do to see that angel again yeah.

[11:55] Jeff listen buddy i know you hit that you hit the anna thing you hit the sheridan or the the Sinclair Valen thing and those were like for both of those you were like 95% dead on right this one my friend boom take your crown you earned it buddy oh my god you earned it I don't remember that at all I don't remember that at all like it was just such like oh I was driving I was in the Target parking lot I almost got In an accident, What oh my god, And here's the thing, Jeff. Remind me, when do we get to see Kosh outside of his little thingy? Next week. Next week? Yeah.

[12:43] Oh, my gosh. Wow. Oh, my gosh. Pretty nuts. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I tell you, you and I, we both loved Evil Talia like so much. We were asking if this was, is this because Andre Thompson was off the show? She was leaving the show. To which I got to imagine everybody, like I'm listening to it. I'm going, yeah, it's her trap door. You, you, you'd Nimrod family friendly show. I gotta be careful what I say. Like, yeah, it's the trap door. Like, of course it is. Yeah. She's off the show. She dug. Can't you tell that she's leaving the show? Cause you and I were, were very much on like a dude, she's turned evil. She's gone evil. She's going to be the new evil. She might not be on every episode, but she'll come back a couple, two, three, four times a season and stir some stuff up. And that actually, the whole relationship, having that relationship with Ivanova to now have the weirdness of what that is, being on the other side, oh, that'd be so great. And we discussed a lot whether Talia was alive or dead. You actually thought she might be dead, and I was very insistent that she was still alive. You have been to date, actually.

[13:49] I still think she's yeah like which first of all i was proven right that when she left she was alive after this i don't know how long it took for bester to get to the moment that he says they did something to her but i don't i will plant my flag in the ground bester was lying his through his teeth that talia is still out there doing a thing yeah i will and i love the fact that jms refuses to answer the question right it's all up to us i love he's he just he refuses to answer that so i i love it i love it i love it brett the chat is correcting us it's not next week we'll see uh they're saying it's not next week we'll see kosh it's in three weeks but what they don't know is we're gonna skip the next two episodes and just jump right to the season finale we oh we didn't tell them that yet we haven't so it is next week see i'm kidding we're it's gonna be in a couple weeks that it happened so yeah yeah so uh so we we went through all that um and then we talked a bit about the uh sleeper agent thing the whole idea of a sleeper agent talked a lot about babylon not babylon five talked a lot about battle star galactica and the cylon thing manchurian candidate but we asked what if other characters are sleeper agents kind of turned into like a final five conversation. Yeah. And, and I had a theory and you didn't notice this at all. So I want to point this out because I want you to go. Now you and I know there's no other sleeper agents.

[15:17] There's the spoiler folks i told you we know there's not we or if there are they never woke up they never got never woke up exactly right right right so you and i know that that's that's not the case but i said londo and you just brushed me off you're like no no no and i said no wait a minute because what did talia say what did evil talia say when she looked at ivanova she said the phrase my dear good friend of vanova oh and that's the phrase londo uses all the time so what if it's londo as well that's the clue and i i was off on that train it turns out that one was just a dog barking up an empty tree yeah i was just like i'm like no dude shut up just no it's a good pick up though like that's the little programming language they'd use there you go there you go um last thing though jeff is you and i both just kind of gushed a little bit over how cute Dylan and Sheridan were really they're so cute and we just we loved how they're slow playing their relationship which you know I mean we've talked about that like we love how earned their relationship is um in in television as a whole in sci-fi as a whole because so often these things aren't earned um far too often yeah yeah so Jeff that's that's what you and I said I'm curious if.

[16:38] I know the man himself is keeping mom on some things, but did he have anything else to say about this episode? He had so much to say about this episode. Yeah. I've whittled it down. I'm going to save quite a few of them for during the episode itself.

[16:52] Okay. But yeah, so we talked about, you were talking about, and we were questioning, would we have seen this coming? Like, you know, it's that second watch. Are there little things you can pick up on? Joe says, One of the motifs we played with from the start was always showing Talia in mirrors. In Race, in Zahadoom, and others. Always showing the reflection. Her opposite. Just a setup on an emotionally symbological level. Damn it, Jeff. Now I've got to go watch these first two seasons for a third time. Because now I want to see that. I wish you would have told us that way back when. We could have been watching for it. Almost get a list of like, hey, watch for these things. Yeah. You know. Okay. That's cool. I would, I love little production clues like that that are very subtle, but they mean something. I love that sort of stuff. It is good. He confirms the evil Talia is indeed control from spider in the web. There was, uh, there was a question, uh, online. It said, uh, they said if Talia was control in spider in the web, why would she order herself eliminated? JMS's answer. My sense was that the control part, which sometimes moved at night, reported that the mission could be jeopardized. Then Bureau 13 gave the order to eliminate. Nowhere does it say that Control said the second half of the sentence. I don't know what the second half of the sentence was. So let's remember, when we saw Bureau 13, there was a lady in the chair talking.

[18:21] Like on a phone or something of that nature, or into a microphone or whatever it was, right? That person was not evil Talia. No. Or is that what he's saying? He's saying that actual Control is evil Talia. The other lady was just bureau 13 she she was just she was one of the bureau 13 because you and i have talked about whether or not talia was one of the assets yeah the components components yeah one of the components so she was not a component she was she was controlled so she was the mastermind of this whole thing yeah evil talia specifically yeah so wait wait what's the real personality is the real personality evil talia or is the real personality sweet nice talia And this is something that's been imprinted on top of her by psych or I'm pretty sure it's sweet, nice Talia and they've the evil Talia has been imprinted upon her. So that's what he says to like the control part, which sometimes moved at night. So this isn't actually the first time evil Talia pops out. Evil Talia has popped out before, but good Talia, sweet Talia never knew. Okay.

[19:19] She just didn't know why she was tired the next morning. Yeah, exactly. God, I felt like I thought I got some good sleep, but man, maybe not. There's a comment that came up in the Council Chambers chat. And by the way, folks, if you're watching or listening, if you want to join us during our recordings, Council Chamber tier subscribers to our Patreon get to do that in the chat. And that's the stuff that we're pulling up here from time to time. So thank you. And it's literally the next thing I have on my list. Question came up in the conversation for JMS. It says, if Laurel Takashima had stayed with the crew and shot Garibaldi in Chrysalis...

[19:54] Would she have been control? Okay. Yes. It says Laurel would have been control. There would have indeed been an implanted personality there acting without even her knowing about it. And it would have been this implanted personality that would have been the one that shot Garibaldi. Okay. He goes on. If Laurel had stayed with the show by the middle of year two, the fact that she was control would have been revealed via the password incident. At that point. I'm sorry. The password incident. What we're going to watch in this episode here. Oh, okay, okay, okay.

[20:26] It says, after that, one particular possibility was that her second in command under her, a rather dour Russian lieutenant named Ivanova, would have been promoted to take her place while Laurel was moved off the chessboard. This was planned because we knew going in that Tamlin Tamida had a growing film career, and we probably could have only kept her for a couple of years in the best of circumstances. All right. And then, Brent, he gets to the piece that everyone wants to know. Yeah. There's a couple versions of this story. Like, there's the story and then just, I mean, it's not different stories. It's just kind of different perspectives on it. And I kind of pulled this together from all that. There are a number of actors who feel, this isn't Jeff saying this, this is JMS.

[21:12] There are a number of actors who feel that if they're in a story then they should be at the center of the story andrea seemed to feel that if she was in an episode the episode should be about her character and was consistently lobbying for this despite the fact that it would cut into the arc in time for other characters on screen babylon 5 is an ensemble show time on screen is determined by story, not by whim or personal insistence. Yeah, we used her eight or nine times in any given season, but by contract, we paid her for a full 13, whether she appeared in them or not. We were never under any obligation to give her any guarantee. Andreas and Peter have often appeared as many times in a season as Andrea and didn't even have a guarantee for the first two seasons. They didn't? Andrea did, but they didn't? Isn't that wild? Are you serious? He noted too, he's like, now they do. You know, at the time that he wrote it. Yeah. He goes on and talks about how when she would be lobbying for parts.

[22:14] Jerry Doyle, who she was married to at the time, would then follow up and he would also lobby on her behalf. Sure. So ultimately this was a mutual parting of the ways where she wasn't getting her way and he was kind of sick of dealing with her. He meaning JMS, not Jared Doyle. Probably both, considering... Because we know her and Jared Doyle split rather soon after this, I believe. Yeah, JMS is the one I'm referring to. I'm pretty sure maybe Jared Doyle a little bit, too. Uh so yeah so this wasn't that she had another offer she wanted to go do another show or there was a movie out there for her or anything like that this was just at least according to jms this is just jms aside not necessarily you know we haven't heard it is there any word out there were you able to find anything about her kind of giving her side of the story because i know like with the avonava thing jms has his side and claudia has her side and those aren't 100 compatible They are not. No. Yeah, I did not find her side of the story. I also didn't spend a lot of time. It might be out there. I just did a quick cursory search on it and didn't find it. But those are things I found, Brent. There's some more that I have for when we get into the episode itself. So what do you say we do that and get into the episode?

[23:31] Let's do that. It's going to happen right now. For those of you joining us for the first time especially, every episode is somebody's first episode. This is a great one to start with. but just to remind everyone what's going to happen is brent and i are going to watch this episode right now we're going to bring it up we're going to watch it in real time with you we're going to talk about it we're going to react we're going to have conversation do all that kind of great stuff the fun stuff for youtube those of you watching us on youtube we're going to kind of chop it up do the reaction style thing we have to do that for for youtube and uh but we also have a full we have an unedited version with all of the stuff where we're watching the whole episode you can catch that over at our patreon page patreon.com slash bad nerd and if you're listening to the audio podcasting app uh you're going to hear that reaction we're going to pull the video out and and you'll have the audio that because jeff and i are going to have some conversations in the middle of the episode we don't want you guys to miss those conversations and then on the other side as jeff said we're going to we're going to come back and we're going to have the full conversations where we break down any messages that we found we'll re-rank this in our new 100, 100% and completely accurate definitive ranking of Babylon 5. And have a good time talking about it all. So Jeff, let's watch this episode. Accessing file.

[24:50] So this is sewers in the future? That's mucky water. No. You can call that brown water, right? Or black water. Is that you? Yeah, me? I did it, Derek. I got the info. We've got to get you to the hospital. No, no time. It's all here. Get it to me, Derek. Get it to me. It's a bad one on fire. Tell him. Tell him it's not safe. I understand. Tell him. Tell him.

[25:17] Tell him what spit it out so those are rangers right okay yeah exactly i'm saying that because like at the end you kind of see his badge the little pin thing i really wish that they would have gone not like out of their way but a little more out of their way to like make it clear that that's what they were andrew ask how you work that into the dialogue you don't you just zoom in on the badge or just have some lighting so you can see it actually i got up early this Yeah, I remember this. Get the walk in the garden.

[25:48] I have a little shoulder thing. It's hard to believe it's taken us so long to get to this point. Two years. Well, you didn't exactly make it easy. Me? How about you? I'll have you know I've been nothing but compassionate and understanding. I mean, all you had to do was admit that you were wrong and I was right and everything would have been fine. Okay. This is total flirting sexual tension. This is a date. Yeah. In fact, I'm going to say it's their first date. It came in through the jump gate a few minutes ago. That's why they're like, how did it take us so long to get here? They had sex last night. And this is their actual date yeah the day after it's like something happened last night and now they're finally like okay fine maybe go get something to eat or something yeah we should we should go you know hang out and talk and whatnot and do a thing like that's that's 100 i will we have not seen tide nor tittle of that till this point right here not to this level especially i mean that was that's yeah also on a first watch not even that tripped tripped an alarm in my mind that's just i it they were literally two friends who used to be at odds being like wow it just took us so long to get here and whatever so also like for me i'm i hate relationships on television so i was i wouldn't even be looking for no yeah i i tend to just be oblivious like i you know yeah i have so many stories but that's all i this podcast.

[27:10] Yeah it's like there's things i can't say but driving oh shoot that was what oh that's what she meant oh crap you mean i could have oh is it too late yeah it's too late it'd be weird.

[27:27] They can't believe it. In the council chamber chat, they can't believe that I might be oblivious to something. It's not possible. They've known me for three, four years now, and it doesn't track at all, does it? Not at all. Unidentified ship, this is Babylon Control. Please respond. Anything? Negative. Still registering one life form. All right, let's bring her in and see what's inside. Life form or life sign? Doc. Any electricity in the ship's ID? No. Which leads me to think it's probably a bogus serial number. Have you reported it yet? No. until I know a little bit more about what's inside. Dr. Franklin, confirm one passenger. She's unconscious, injured, but alive. All right, bring her in. She must have been related to somebody. Get that part?

[28:11] I missed a thing. Okay. When Ivanova invited Talia to stay at her place, JMS says that the female Babylon 5 editorial staff have called this the battle of the big, red, poofy lip gloss. But he would never say such a thing. He'd just repeat it in print. Wow.

[28:35] All righty then i know her it's it's lita who lita alexander she arrived here the day before ambassador kosh came aboard from the vorlon empire only somebody tried to kill him as soon as he stepped off his ship lita agreed to scan him to try and save his life by grabbing the hand that he doesn't see what was inside his encounter suit but she did manage to get into kasha's mind the only human who's ever done it and survived she thought she saw commander sinclair trying to kill kosh turns out it was somebody using a changeling that to impersonate him she and the doctor who operated on kosh were recalled to earth a few weeks later i love this continuity so much she was never quite the same it's hard to explain but from that day on she was never quite right anymore it's pretty interesting just from a meta standpoint that jerry doyle is having to give the backstory for the person who's going to be replacing his wife on the show right was there any word i'm sorry was there any word from jms about the return of um uh lita to the show if like she was available so we brought her back or yeah anything about that there's a couple of things one um one big piece i think it's this one um she just had a kid a little while ago yeah in fact i'm gonna bring that up in a little bit okay um she just had a baby about a month before he wanted lita in the role the whole time but a lot of reasons it didn't work out the delay between the pilot and this.

[29:59] And so he was really excited that everything kind of landed in a way that they were able to bring her back.

[30:06] I can do it!

[30:09] I want to see the captain. Yes, well, all in good time. This can't wait. Yes, it can. I want to see Captain Sheridan now. I want to see everyone all together.

[30:26] This might be the greatest comment that has ever been made from our council chambers, from Delenn. Lita had heard of Franklin's past with his patients, and that's why she reacted that way. Here. All right, Jeff. Here. We're going to reenact this scene with – it's the exact same scene, literally with Lita. You play the part of Lita. I'll play the part of literally anybody not named Stephen Franklin. Okay. Okay. Are you ready? Yep. We'll do this. Here we go. Hey, you're awake. Yeah. What happened? Well, we found you on the ship. You were here. What's going on? Where am I? You're on Babylon 5. Oh, thank God. Is Captain Sheridan around? Yeah, sure. I can go get him for you. You want to follow me? Come with me? Let's go. I need to talk to him right now. Can I get you some water? No, I need to talk to him first. Yeah, that's it. Just follow me. Let's go.

[31:15] No, but it's creepy, frankly. Right? No! His reputation has gotten in front of him, and it's like, I need to see him right now. You stay away from me. I love that interpretation of that scene. It's so good. Men their lives nearly cost mine a sleeper program they bring someone in and work from over with drugs and deep scans to create a new personality a personality suited to, His personality is then submerged so far into the subconscious that it won't show up. Even on a deep scan, it's always there. Watching, listening, spying. Until the day the password is sent telepathically. It has to be sent directly into the brain. Is she nuts? At that moment, the real personality is destroyed. And the implanted one takes control. I'm going to take us back a minute. I just have to point out a thing that is driving me absolutely up a wall. She's overly enunciating the word personality.

[32:09] Personality every time and to the point where it's something that had to have been coached to her it's okay you would stop posit would you like me to now tell you something that is going to drive you crazy because it drove me crazy the first time it is driving me crazy again okay god this was so boring when i was re-listening to it the first time i was like brent get off of it but for as good as this episode is the sound mix on this episode is all over the place you're not wrong it's so high it's so low it there's there's no sometimes the music is way overpowered like there's no consistency on the mix in this particular episode and especially listening to it in cans it is it's so hard right consistent mix maybe run it through a compressor just an idea probably would help yeah yeah we don't know who's been infected but someone here is not what he or she appears hey our guess is that it's no one the command staff or close to it since the mole would be looking for vital information all we have is a code name control dad did you get that change in the dialogue you really expect us to believe you I mean how do we know you're not just making all of this up because I have the password captain I realize you don't know me and you've got no reason to trust me but I can prove what I've said.

[33:23] With your permission, I can send a telepathic probe into the minds of your staff one at a time. I won't scan, won't read, won't do anything to invade your privacy. Yeah, that's a no. I will just send the password and see what happens. Just get me on a line of sight. I'll take care of the rest. I've already done it to all of you in this room. Yeah. All right, we'll discuss it. Get back to you later.

[33:44] Don't take too long, Captain. The implanted personality is conditioned for self-preservation. It will react to anything it perceives as a threat. And as of right now, that is me. That's called a Borg. So until this is over, with all due respect, I don't want to be alone with any of you. And you may want to keep an eye on each other while you're at it. Thanks for the thought. Suddenly, we're in an episode of Clue. Yeah, exactly. All right. I'm just going to say this. Okay. What Pat Tallman is able to do as an actress is so infinitely more interesting than what Andrea Thompson ever did as Talia. A hundred percent. Like, I am immediately enraptured by this character. And i want like i i want i'm with this character paulia comes on screen and i'm bored out of my flargan mind and i have always been bored out of my flargan mind with her talia and keffer come on scene onto the scene and you realize you're in a mid-90s tv show yeah yeah and the thing is keffer is more interesting than talia to be honest with you i know the very little we get of him before he gets you know uh his skin peeled off but one thing i noticed in this scene is that she doesn't have any gloves on, right? And so she mentioned, I escaped Lita. Yeah.

[34:57] I escaped Sycor. And so much later in the, in the series when, uh, spoiler alert, um, she in name only rejoined Sycor as a big deal made of her putting the gloves back on. Yeah. What we never got to see was the, like that moment of liberation when she took them off. Yeah. And I'm just, she was Sycor in the gathering. Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Now I want to, I, just to finish up with the Andrea Thompson thing, uh, because one of the things i did point out in the last in our first run through i just thought she was a bad actress yeah until we got to the last 90 seconds of this episode it's like oh there she is now she's a really interesting act like so i don't know if that's just the way the character was written if that's the way the character was played if it's the way they were directed or she just made really bad choices for talia up to that moment but pam tallman pam tallman pat tallman is knocking it out of the park you like your shower it was glorious i haven't had a real hot water shower in ages want some tea love some take some coffee you know that ivanova here's the thing if ivanova had wet hair here lita alexander yeah do you know do you like your shower takes on a whole new meaning there right yes she was a year behind me at the academy when she found out she didn't like it she changed departments became a commercial teep like me oh uh teeps it's a sort of an in Joke around the core, teeps for telepaths, teeks for telekinetics. That's a joke?

[36:23] Ha ha! That's a... Strong season. Damn it, tell you, I don't know who I can trust anymore. It's funny, I felt the same way lately.

[36:29] So I've come to the decision. There's only one person on this station that I can trust implicitly. 100% that's a kiss. I think that might have been my first suggestion.

[36:42] So, JMS has some words. Uh-oh. And honestly, this is some of the message stuff that could come up, but possibly. But not really. It's not from the episode. It's just the thing. It says, one of the most consistent comments I get in email and regular mail is that the spirituality conveyed in the show that we have shown and will continue to show tolerance toward religion even created sympathetic religious characters okay thank you quote thank you for your tolerance they say until we show somebody or some action they don't like at that point suddenly it's a lot of tsk tsking and chest thumping and disapproval so okay how about i just stop all the positive religious aspects of the show basically he's getting hate mail but how dare you how dare you put an lgbtq relationship on television from the same people they're like thank you for being so tolerant of us well you and i talked quite a bit in the first episode um just about the the balls it took to put this on tv to put to put a a same-sex kiss that unlike star trek and unlike other components was not still laced with heteronormative, heteronormative undertones, but was able to just be what it was and not have to be something else. And that was huge for the 90s that something like that could happen.

[38:11] And I could see very much like, this is why people don't put that on screen because you get the mail.

[38:22] This is such great buildup, though, on, like, everything to this point has led us to believe it's Ivanova. That the mystery... Ma'am, we're supposed to transfer you to a better facility so you can get some sleep. Thanks, I could use it. This way. Dude, that guy is just screaming 90s actor, generic actor. Mustache, he's tall, lean, and chiseled chin. And somebody's about to get shot. And, oh my gosh, that girl... Get behind!

[38:58] See that in the opening credits coming up yeah right you feel like she should be like scanning them as they go by at this point with this latest incident i am leaning toward letting her perform a telepathic, captain i wouldn't submit to a scan to prove my loyalty last year and i won't submit to one now either the same thing she's not going to be scanning anyone and or invading their privacy she's just going to send the password i don't want to look susan i know how you feel all right no you don't if someone on staff has been compromised we need to know that he's right our careers our lives are on the line here i get where ivanova's coming from trust each other or we are dead but she should see this too and we can't do that as long as this is now here's the I think Ivanova does see it. Ivanova's number one priority is keeping her latent telepath thing a secret. And this would potentially expose it. I think Ivanova gets it, which is why she's about to submit her resignation letter. Yeah. Because she can't let that come out. Like, she understands. You know what? But it just came to me, like, you don't have to quit, Ivanova. Like, just say, fine, I'll do it. But I'm going last. Because if they find the person before me, then I don't have to do it. Except as command staff. Yeah, she's got to do it. You should go first. Should. I let myself in. You should change your lock code more often.

[40:18] I'm a latent telepath. What? What does that mean? Man, they're going to do something with this, aren't they? It's going to be huge. It's going to be such a thing. It's a game changer. Game changer. Why didn't you tell me this before? I thought we could trust each other. It's got nothing to do with trust. I've spent my entire life hiding this, Captain. It's not something you can just change overnight. I'm sorry. Okay. So let's stop and talk for a second. Okay. Let's talk about the issue of trust. Okay. Ivanova has somebody that she is sleeping with relatively new, but still like in, in the most intimate of ways sleeping with right yet. She doesn't trust that person enough with her deepest secret. That makes, that honestly makes sense to me. The person she does trust is her commanding officer who's about to force her to do a thing. Mm-hmm. What does this say?

[41:09] John. Trust is a thing that's built, right? And it's tested and it's forged over time. And she and John have that. They've been in spots together. I mean, Ivanova hurled somebody off the third floor or whatever for stuff, and he was there for that. They have the reps in. She and Talia are in a brand... It's a brand new relationship. And I think that we equate physical intimacy with trust and emotional intimacy. And they are different things. And I think that's the thing.

[41:48] In fact, I would go so far as to say that most people in physically intimate relationships do not trust each other. And that's unfortunate. Yeah. I mean, there's a whole lot that could be said that's way bigger than the scope of this show regarding that specific topic. But I find it very interesting that they're building up this whole thing between her and in talia frankly so fast out of nowhere but when it but when it really comes down to what matters in this episode when the when the the chips are all on the table she's still turning to sheridan and not this other person and i well i think the other piece and suzanne brings this up in the in the chat ivanova knows just as well as everybody else that Even though Tali is questioning her loyalty to Psycor, she's still Psycor. And what we know from the greater canon of everything is if someone finds out, specifically Psycor finds out you are... Okay, so let's then talk about how absolutely retardedly dumb Ivanova is being by sleeping, no gloves, literal full skin-to-skin contact in many, many places with a telepath who is still employed by Psycor, who's just going to pick up on stuff. You don't have to tell them. They don't have to be trying. Just pick up on stuff. You're in such a vulnerable moment.

[43:14] How dumb is you to put yourself in that situation when this is the thing you have to keep secret so first i would say ridiculously uh on on my r word for that uh but no we we hear her talk about that with jason ironheart in mind war right yeah she talked how just how incredibly intimate and connected it is but again just like i said earlier many people including ivanova and talia in physically intimate relationships aren't that vulnerable that connection isn't happening it's a physical act jeff the whole reason for the gloves is to stop the physical contact what did just tell us the only thing the only thing that is possible is if when her and this matters okay this is a family-friendly show we got to stay pg-13 here okay all right or pg when her and Ivanova are skin to skin. Okay. This is not about vulnerability. This is about physics, not physical, but physics. She should be able to feel stuff in and get stuff straight away. And the only thing that makes sense is what Andrew says in the chat.

[44:27] Maybe Ivanova is using protection, which the only thing I could think is a full body. Yeah. Protection like naked gun but no she told us what protection she's using she learned at a very young age to block and that's a thing that people do which again to my earlier point she is not giving all of herself she's maintaining that block in the in the in the moment because she knows that they would get everything but but again i'm gonna go back i'm gonna rest on the fact that your first word here was ridiculous because it is ridiculous because while you're saying all And while Ivanova may be working to maintain the block, she is literally putting herself in the most dangerous situation for that block to slip.

[45:12] Rent. In skin-to-skin contact, in a moment with a telepath who can just read. By the way, Talia's not even level five anymore. She's level whatever, although Ivanova doesn't know that. But she's putting herself in such a dangerous situation when this is a thing that is so important to her to protect. A couple things. One, the scans are intentional. Not always. Not always. Talia's walking down the hallway. Here comes Londo with murderous intentions, and she just picks up on it as she goes by. Yeah, but the top of Ivana's mind isn't her telepathy. The top of her mind is this is this is pretty freaking awesome right now. Like I'm digging this thing. But how deep is that? I'm just I'm just saying she's repressed this. She's repressed this for.

[46:03] 25 30 years i don't care and has a lot of experience this is the this is the dumbest thing we have ever seen avonava do is sleep with a telepath who works for uh psychor if this is that important to her forget the physical intimacy of that thing allowing herself to be bare skin to bare skin in a moment where guess what your guard is down because it feels good and that's gonna slip and you don't even mean it i just you there's it's just avonava's being dumb that's all i'm saying yeah i'm not avonava is being dumb where my heartburn is coming is not in what you're saying it's what it's actually describing it's that popcorn you were eating earlier it is that too but this is the thing if if every time people were about to be physically intimate thought about their best interests uh stis would no longer be a thing yes yes it's the same thing you're absolutely right and they are running rampant people are dying from them because well i mean it's probably okay what's what's the chances it could happen like.

[47:12] One in 20 that's like 19 times that i would not do it right yeah it's this yeah i think i think the whole thing is a really deep conversation not for this around the difference in intimacies and in actually like protecting yourself physically and emotionally in those situations i think though in this case i agree it's a huge risk but i also think that she's been suppressing this for so long And it's such a guard that that's the metaphor that shows that like, I'm willing to be physically intimate with a person who I am not willing to be emotionally intimate with. And I mean, maybe that's fine. Maybe it's not, but it's a, it's a commentary. If nothing else, there is commentary there. I, yeah, I just, this, this is either a, a plot hole that JMS just didn't even think about, which is kind of what I lean towards or two. Cause you're a hundred percent right. Right. If people actually stopped and thought with the, with the brain in their head, instead of the brain, I mean, we make the joke all the time about men, like they've got two heads and only one of them works at the same time. Well, it's amazing that we were given two heads, but just enough blood to run one of them. Yeah. Yeah.

[48:20] Right. And whatever the female equivalent of that is, uh, I'm not going to get into anatomy, but you know, whatever that is, that's, what's going on with, with Avon here. And that's how dumb that is yet. So here's the message. i'm going to give it to you right now use protection yeah right and and when you're going to be intimate with somebody stop and think with the head up here before you do it because you might let something slip that you didn't want to let slip exactly because ivana is being dumb by getting into this relationship right now and that also makes her very normal my head.

[48:55] She taught me how to fool the tests given at school transferred me from one school to another They're always staying one step ahead of the Psycorps. So, are we gonna do this? Yes, you'll start with me. You're sure? I can't ask anyone else to do this until I've done it myself. I love that, that's fantastic. Send the password. Well, when do you start? I've already done it. You're clean. Is the password peekaboo? Doctor. I bet I was wishing it was him the first time. They're doing the weird eyes. Yep. Mr. Garibaldi? You and I both loved that his first response was to de-arm himself just in case something went off. And then he's freaking hilarious. You and I both were like, we immediately knew he was faking. Michael. I love it. I love it so much. Just couldn't help myself.

[49:43] He handed him the gun by the barrel. I've got plenty of other people to check, and I suggest we get to it. Yeah, Ben, he's right. It's a nice way to get yourself shot, Mike. Yes, I did. Hey, look, Corrin's not in profile. I just want to say that I think you're doing a very good job. What? I'm an evil Corwin. Well, thank you. Thanks, boss. That's a future leading man. Right? Oh, yeah. Zach? Sir? Thank you for coming. Yes, sir. And you can go. That'll be all. That's it sir yes yes thank you sir i just needed to see you next i've been uh evaluating your recent work congratulations well done.

[50:24] We all thank you. You know what the lesson is here, Jeff? Hmm. Every once in a while, just parade in literally everybody that is in your purview, like underneath you, and tell them they've been doing a good job. Just for the sake of saying they've been doing a good job. Right. Can you imagine what the talk is out at the water cooler? Exactly. Did he do that? He did that to me too. What's going on? This is weird. Did he do that to you too? Yeah. Are we getting laid off? Like, what's happening?

[50:49] Are we getting a raise? Right. Is this a raise for everybody? I bet he's sucking up for Nightwatch is what it is. Uh-huh. Or he's about to run a coup, and he's just trying to make sure we're all at a side. All right, thank you. That'll be all. If you didn't like me, you can take me off your list. See, I think you're doing a great job. All right, anything? No, he's clean. They've all been clean. If the password worked, you'd see a definite reaction. So what are we supposed to do now? I love the composition, like how this scene breaks down. We've got over 5,000 technical staff here, and that doesn't even include the Dockers Guild, medical support, environmental personnel. The further you go from the center of power, the less likely it is we're going to find the person that we're looking for. Ivanova. I suggest you move those eyes somewhere else. I know what she's implying. No one is implying anything. To avoid discovery, the implanted personality will do or say anything, manipulate anyone. Is that what you think I'm doing? Well, you sure as hell are worried about something. Mind telling us what it is you're hiding? At this point, I'm past Ivanova being the implanted personality. This is exactly what Sycor wants. They want us paranoid, afraid of each other. Divide and conquer it's the oldest rule in the book i think at this point i'm thinking nobody is we all join in kumbaya that's a great gif this is neither the time nor the place i said i'll do it now before i change my mind and talia walks in from around the corner see if she was blocking.

[52:04] Talia while they were doing it because you would know because talia would be actively scanning lead is actively doing the thing but or subconsciously scanning just just passively scanning sorry because that's what happens when it just happens as part of the mating process i was looking for you i'm gonna do this anyway.

[52:24] My God, it's her. Oh! Whoa, whoa, whoa. Give me the gun.

[52:31] You blew my cover. You're dead. You hear me? You're dead. Get her out of here. Put her under house arrest. The core's mother, the core's mother. Your dead lead, Alexander, will find you. The core will find you. Okay. That's not the evil Talia I remember. Oh, there's more evil Talia. The good evil Talia. That's not the one I remember. Yeah. It's still coming. It's her with Ivanova. It's not her fault. She's been carrying this artificial personality all this time without even knowing. I guess it could have been a lot worse, though, huh? Another day or two, we would have invited her into our little cell group. Yeah. Man, if Lita had to come aboard one week later, we'd be standing in front of a court-martial board right now. If not just summarily executed. Is there anything else that we can use to protect ourselves, if necessary? I wanted to see you before you left. I know this isn't your fault, and I hope somewhere there's a part of you that can still hear me. Always the romantic. The program is complete. the talia you knew no longer exists wow but i was like well i like your hair um you don't know what it's like living only in the shadows of her mind watching laughing at all of you out here foolish petty stupid there i was trapped inside able to come out only at night when she was asleep and you the mouth noises everything she said to you all the things you wanted to hear all All the words I whispered in her thoughts while she lay.

[53:56] The words that would get her closer to you and to what you knew. Dude, she would make her real good Maleficent. Oh, yeah. You should see the look on your face. My good and dear friend, Susan. She should have slapped her. You're right. The toy I knew is dead. I had to see you again before my ship leaves. We slept together once. Right? You might not remember. I never told them. You were passed out. I never told anyone. Right. I hid it all the way in the smallest, tiniest corner of my mind. They could have killed me, and they still wouldn't have found it. Would I open that small door in my mind where I kept the memory of you? I hope I could come back again, but I don't know. Until then. Does JMS know that she's coming back for more in this episode, actually? Is this just a one-off for Pat Tallman right now? Yeah, I'm not sure.

[54:52] We can see like a reflection in her eye I remember this we talked a lot about the halo it's a ring light it is, I mean, it seems almost so obvious knowing what Kosh is. Yeah, now. What that is. It seems so obvious back then. Well, clearly it was. The fact you called that out. Yeah, it was that obvious, apparently. Are you a telepath, Jeff? You'll never know because I'll block you if you try to find out. Well, you know, are you also able to block the people you sleep with? All the time, yeah. It gets exhausting, though. It's hard to make myself appear a certain way to so many people at once. Oh you're that i see i see well played my friend well played thank you thank you well brent that's divided loyalties for the second time yeah i will say it's a different experience than the first time, and jeff hold on pause pause pause we're going back into this episode oh all right people in the council chambers are saying that in the sound oh we can only turn it up so far on the on the video but i could turn it up on my headphones and i can hear it better in my headphones they're saying, if you listen closely, you can actually hear his wings unfurling. So I'm gonna play this piece again and let's see if we can't pick up on that. Okay. Okay.

[56:17] Okay cool you hear the yep yeah it's there yeah it doesn't like and i'm going to blame the sound mixing for this it kind of blends with a lot of the other techie sounds that i think it's supposed to though but in that case i think it's supposed to you're not supposed to have any clue what that is it's just it's just for those of us who know right well i will say though on a i i do this in theater not for television so let me put that out right at the front but i would think that that would actually be something you'd want to bring as a sound mixer myself you would want to bring that a significantly bit more forward and like we shouldn't have to turn it up and listen real closely for the yeah it should be there and honestly it should clue into us to just go oh whatever or to be like hey what is that sound like it should do something like that it's so buried you would never do that but i think that's the way they actually wanted it i would just disagree with that being the call of how to make it yeah i'm with you there so brent has divided loyalties for the second time.

[57:20] Definitely a different experience than the first time, I think. What do you think? Here's my notes. Evil Talia is the best Talia. Yeah, 100%. But Lita Alexander is better than any Talia. Okay. Evil Talia was way more over the top and cartoonish than I remember. Yeah. And she was not as great as I remember. Like, I loved her the first time. And I mean, I dug her this one. And this evil Talia is still better than any other Talia we got. But she was so laying it on as an actress, you know, and while I would love to see a little bit more of that, we've seen other villains that are over the top, but not as cartoonish. All right. You know, I told you, like, she reminds me of like a Maleficent. Like, she almost comes across like a Disney character, like a Disney villain.

[58:13] Yeah, exactly. Like that's the way she really came across to me, which I'm just going to go back to, you know, we've, we've kind of talked about like, is, is she just not a good actress?

[58:26] I hate to make proclamations like that, Jeff, but. Well, I think, I think we hit it earlier. I'm just not seeing the evidence of it here. I don't know that she's a, I'm not going to make any comment on her being an actress. This wasn't a good role for her. Just not a good merging of the two of actor and role. Yeah. Maybe, but as some people are saying in our, in our council chambers chat, she actually stopped acting and went on to become like a news anchor or something. Yeah. Cause she couldn't act. So, you know, but Hey, listen, you know what? At least she got to go do it and we didn't. Right. Yeah. Good on her. Here we are talking about her. Right. Right. There is that. Um.

[59:01] Yeah. I think this is Jeff. I think this might be, you know, how we, we get these episodes, Jeff, that are good the first time around, but when you see what's going on and you know, what's happening and you watch it again and Oh my God, it's just so much better. This is an episode that I think is so much better. The first, the first time. Yes. Not the second time around, it like i like the episode but it wasn't like i just yeah i don't know i wasn't as is enthralled with it i wasn't as is on the edge of my seat i was on the edge of my seat about lita yeah she's really good you know i think that for pat tallman and claudia christian this was a fantastic episode yeah they brought so much and like in the evil talia scene that we were like oh she's so great No, man, Ivanova was the great one in that because she was clearly hurt, but she was ice fricking cold. That was fantastic. Yeah, I don't I don't disagree.

[1:00:07] Jeff, we had a bit of a falling out, an argument, really a splitting of ways, a dividing of loyalties. No, actually, we didn't. Not at all. But messages. Let's talk messages. Unless you had anything else you want to discuss prior going into that, because we think. We yeah dunderdoll says it right it's not as exciting when you know things aren't going to develop you're just like i'm not paying attention to that right well someone.

[1:00:33] Someone said agent, the Bureau 13, the all like, none of that matters. Ultimately, this is just how we get her off the show. Yeah. Somebody said it earlier in the chat and it's like, this is a dropped thread that we really regret. Even the whole, like, is she going to come back? Is there something to drop threads in Babylon five, Jeff? Nothing. There's no dropped plot holes except, except for all the ones that got dropped. Right. Right. And yeah, like Dundra, it all says, you know, well, it's, it's, it's. Great because of the start of her vorlon journey agreed and pat tallman is great in her acting and i can hear an argument if someone hasn't made it already but an argument this is important because it's lita reconnecting with that could happen anywhere else that didn't have to happen in this episode it's important yes and it'll happen it's important because this is the episode that it happened in yeah but it didn't have to be this episode it could have it could have happened in any number of ways and pat tallman would have come in and knocked it out of the park because she's fantastic in this role yeah you know i pat holman owns this role you know it's we did talk quite a bit about the whole um skin to skin glove contact and how she's no longer with the side course so she doesn't wear the gloves yeah and later when she pseudo goes back to the side course she does put the gloves back on did you know a little fun fact um our our friend delin the our actual friend to Lynn.

[1:01:51] Uh, we'll, we'll corroborate this with me in the action figures that they created for Babylon five. Now they didn't create a ton of them, but several of them did have variants. Okay. One of the variants was Lita Alexander and the variant was glove on or gloves off. Really? Yep. Okay. I've got them, but I've got, I've got all the variants. I'm not, I've got, I've got the full collection now. I've got them all. Um, I, cause it was like, I feel like a Pokemon master now. Right. Caught them all. Uh, but yeah, one, one with gloves on one with gloves off. Interesting. That's kind of cool. You Brent wanted to talk about messages a bit. I mean, I.

[1:02:32] What did you get, Jeff? Because I got don't sleep with people you don't trust. But that's more of a Brent philosophy moral thing, not necessarily what the show is trying to get across. Right. What did you get, Jeff? I'm trying to set this up so I don't accidentally make a mess, but I'm trying to make a visual point to our podcast listeners. This is a can of water, and I got about that out of the whole thing. But for the record, Jeff just turned it over and literally a single drop fell out of it into his cup. Yeah. So another way of putting it is pretty much jack squat. Like, use protection. Don't be an idiot. Protect yourself. We made all that up. Those are our messages in this one.

[1:03:15] The other one, maybe if you have a secret, it can be liberating to share it with someone you trust. I'm really digging hard. Yeah. I mean, I do think that it says something significant. And again, I think this is going to be up to individual interpretation based on personal moral values. Okay. Does that be clear on what I'm saying here? This is completely up to the individual viewer. Yeah. The idea that Ivanova would tell Sheridan her deepest, darkest secret, but not the person she was sleeping with. I feel is there could be something there for people to chew on if that's a moral code for them. Yeah. You know what I mean?

[1:04:06] But I mean, outside of that, no, it just wasn't. But I will tell you, I loved seeing Lita back. Yeah. You know, like it's –.

[1:04:18] Pieces are moving into place you know we know here just a couple weeks we're going to get um marcus is going to come on the scene which is going to be great to have marcus back.

[1:04:29] Uh talia is going away we know lead is going to be back even though there was no indication i really is there any indication that she got like a new contract for the show or was this just a one-off and jms was like actually we could do more with her later on i i'd be shocked if jms didn't have bigger plans for lita at this point she outright said i don't know if i'm going to be back in this one like that's what she said to kosh i hope i hope i can come script right so yeah uh yeah i don't have any i don't have any messages so we'll move on from that topic here's what i will put this out i'll put this out to our community i'll put this out to anybody who is listening or watching this episode did you get any messages yeah email us in you can do it at the bad nerds gmail.com or check out links down in the show notes below you can tweet at us instagram us, you can join our discord and talk to us there would love to know what things you guys saw but jeff we do get to place this in our 100 completely accurate and definitive ranking of babylon 5 for the second time season 2 who's putting this one in is this you or me it's on it It is you. Yeah. It's on the notes. My notes closed and I don't have them up. Oh, shoot. I'm like, oh, shoot. Hey, let me try that again, Jeff, okay? Okay. We can edit this, right? Welcome to the behind the scenes unedited version there, folks. Yeah.

[1:05:54] You know, Jeff, we might not have had any messages on this, but we do have one job that we always get to do no matter what is going on within the episode. And that is we get to create our 100% completely accurate and definitive ranking of Babylon 5 season 2 watching this for the second time. Our current top five, Jeff, current top five. Number five is and now for a word. Number four is Confessions and Lamentations. Three, Geometry of Shadows. Two, The Coming of Shadows. One in the shadow of Zaha doom. That's the top five. But Jeff, I've got to wonder if we're even going to crack the top five based on second watch. I feel like you and I are fairly aligned with this one. Where do you get to place it? Also, can you tell me where this wound up in our original ranking? Let's start with that. As I here's what I know when we place this in it, we originally placed it at number five.

[1:06:49] I'm curious where it landed at the end though it landed at number seven okay so we got long twilight struggle um that went in above it in the fall in the fall of night also went in above it which to completely understand that um and you had a weird one with comes the inquisitor which is in between which is a fantastic episode we shall see um so this originally was number five went down to number seven by the time we were done jeff where does this one go in the ranking now i really enjoyed this episode on the second watch just the the composition of it the episode itself um it had so many technical flaws in it though uh some weird lighting stuff the sound stuff and if this episode never happened the world of babylon 5 would continue on just fine and so oh man i i'm very curious at this point which episode is going to be the one that had the most dramatic change from the first time to the second time. But this one might be in the running because it's going to be our new number 14. Wow. Right under points of departure.

[1:07:53] Wow. I can't even argue with that. Like, I really can't argue with that. I'm curious where the people in red sector, which was a group that Jeff and I were not allowed into during the first people that got together to talk about us behind our backs with our blessing, I might add. I wonder where they were like, are they stupid? Where does this episode go? Jeff, you said something, and I just want to be absolutely clear about my thoughts and feelings on this episode. Okay. While I did not enjoy this episode this time around as much as I did the first time, I still really like this episode. Okay, yeah. I still enjoyed this episode. I would never not watch this episode. This episode is not offensive. It's a good episode. It just wasn't what I remembered. And I think it's because we know how much of this just turns into a big nothing burger coming off this episode. Right.

[1:08:49] It was a fine episode. yeah well it's i think even if it may not be in the exact right position i think you're right there in the zone that hunter prey acts of sacrifice points of departure kind of you know and then i think if you if there's there's the dividing line all right like those are okay episodes yeah like good episodes just uh but then we have a line and then we get into a distant star revelation spider in the web i'm not sure why knives is so far down and then the long dark like those are just not good episodes right yeah knives might need to be lifted a little bit just that's in the wrong grouping of episodes there but regardless um uh yeah it's it's in the right area i would say yeah well jeff that is gonna do it for divided loyalties next week we're watching an episode that is probably my most highly anticipated episode So far. Yeah. I loved this episode the first time around, Jeff, this was, I mean, this is like top five, maybe top three episode of the whole damn series for me.

[1:09:56] Coming off the first time and i'm interested to see if it still holds up the long twilight struggle jeff way back when we did this for the first time we would hear that never knowing what the episode was about or seeing anything or whatever just we'd make blind guesses as to what the episode would be about do you remember what you made a blind guess that this one was going to be about i sure do uh i thought this would be kefir kefir's going to go out uh looking for the shadows and he's going to get captured by them and they're going to offer him the morden deal yeah you did but that's not That's not all. That's not all. No, it's not. No, it's not. I heard it, and I about jumped out of my seat, too.

[1:10:32] I said that that Morden deal down the road will lead to a meeting with Sheridan, Keffer, Morden, and Anna. That you did. The only thing you could have done better was say, Anzahadu. Right, exactly. That's the only way you could have done that better. And then maybe, like, by the way, Keffer will have aged a little bit, and we're going to learn that his first name is Justin. Right, yeah. The whole Warren thing is just a joke. It's Justin. And I'm just, and I'm just pulling that out of nowhere. It's his middle name, right? Warren, Justin, or Justin Warren Keffer. He's J. Warren Keffer. Yeah. He went by his middle name for a while. That's all it was. Yeah. So that was my prediction. What, uh, what did you predict? That's a pretty dang good prediction there. I think so. I said sparkly vampires, long twilight. Yeah.

[1:11:16] No, actually I said, this is going to be a Dylan episode and her, uh, struggling with her new identity. you know she it's been about a year since she's had her transformation a little bit less and you know she's she's, started to learn how to live with it, but still there's just the everyday struggle that goes along with something like that. So that's what I said it would be about. Cool. Well, Brent, we're going to watch it next week. And I think much like you and myself, for much of the community out there, out there for much of the community out there, this is one of the most anticipated episodes of the entire series for us to watch.

[1:11:53] Uh, so don't miss this, right? If you're listening to this on a podcasting app, I want you to go over and subscribe right now.

[1:12:00] Even if you've already done it do it again if you're on youtube do the same subscribe just make sure you don't unsubscribe like or if you do on and then back just make sure when you leave the app you're still subscribed yeah do that do the same thing on youtube hit the bell so you know when this thing comes out i'm excited to watch this with you i'm also excited to watch it with a growing community so share this show with your friends and even people that aren't your friends but you know maybe they would benefit from watching a cool episode like the long twilight struggle so i'm going to close this out so we can get to that next episode we'll see you next time brent jeff yes my friend what's up hey you know how we do these ending things like every week uh we try to think of something funny to close out the show with yeah i mean we we try well you know the truth is is it's the closing it it's actually a really really important part of our show these things get really these things really mean something and they can lead to such important things really absolutely i mean if anyone ever missed one of these closing pieces.

[1:13:11] They might just lose the whole thread of the show you know man i agree because the thing about the bad nerds like the The biggest thing is there are never any dropped threads.