Dust to Dust | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. Never ever was this a Star Trek podcast. Not at any point in history because, Brent, you and I used to be Star Trek podcasters. Used to be. Then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and then everything changed. And we're here now watching Babylon 5 for the second time. And do you know why we're watching Babylon 5 for the second time? Why, Jeff? Why are we? Because Babylon 5 is the only show that you get to watch for the first time twice. But you know what we're also doing, though? What? We're searching for those sci-fi messages that JMS hid within, or maybe just ones that you and I pull out. That's also fair game, because that's something that sci-fi does better than any other genre out there, is give us messages. It does things like it holds up a mirror to society, which good Lord, we could have that.

[1:45] It gives us hope that things can be better in the future. Or maybe it just tells us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, all that being said, this is Jeff and mine's second time through this show. We had a whole first time that we had no idea what was happening. Like legit, Jeff and I were in a bubble. We somehow stayed unspoiled and we made it through. That's not the case this time. And that also means that from this point forward, Jeff and I have fair game to talk about anything from any point in the franchise. Guys, any point in the timeline, canonical, extra canonical, it does not matter. It is all fair game for Jeff and I to talk to. So if you have not watched this show for the first time for yourself, please stop the show right now. Trust us. It's better that way. Go do the first time. Babylon 5 for the first time. It's up there. Right there. It's wherever. There. It's there. And that's great for the audio folks. Exactly. What? What are you talking about? Are you guys high? Are you guys having visions? What are you doing?

[2:52] But go check out our first time because this is going to be full of spoilers. This is your one and only spoiler warning. And let's dive right into those spoilers, Brent, because we're watching Dust to Dust this week. I remember my first time watching this one loving this episode. I don't honestly remember a whole lot about it outside of the Jakar vision at the end. And then Bester showing up and being a competent law enforcement officer alongside with Garibaldi and being a good teammate, being the best buddy cop combo in all of Babylon 5. Actually, I don't remember that last part, but I'm going to add that on. That's extra canonical. And they really are the best buddy cop combo. Fair enough. Yeah. Do you remember what you thought of this the first time you thought? Dude, Jakar on drugs, man. Yeah. It's Jakar on drugs. That's what I remember. Like you, I remember really liking this episode, but it's season three. There's only one episode in all of season three that I'm like, nope, next, at least in my memory. Yeah. You know, there's probably a couple along the way that I'm like, okay, we can skip one.

[4:02] Conventions, I believe, is one of them. But for the most part, like season three is just, it's top notch television all the way through the whole ride. So yeah, definitely the vision of Jakar. I think this is Jakar's turning point in my memory. When we think about here's where Jakar began the show and here's where Jakar ends the show, he goes on a journey. But this really is... And in my memory, and I'm eager to see if this is actually true, watching it again, this is the crux where everything changes for Jakar. Like so far, he's just been this playboy. He's he. Yeah, sure. He's got the religious thing going on, which still I call that into question. But he's he's he's the car. He wants to go, you know, kill people and and just take revenge. And it's really the experience he has in this episode that sends him into this character that only Andreas Katsoulas could do. Could possibly do. Yeah, right. And that's what I got. Well, it's interesting that you said you remember loving it. Because I happened to go back and listen to the first time that we did, that I was linked up earlier. You got the receipts, huh? I got the receipts. Do you want to hear what you actually thought? I would love to know what I actually thought. I don't know. Do I want to? Here's your quote. Okay. Or not really a quote. I'd summarize. But outside of Jakar's vision, does this episode even have any real point?

[5:30] No. Yeah. You know what? Jakar's vision is the only part I really remember. Yeah. But it's still so good. You uh you didn't buy the idea the concept of jakar bringing drugs onto the station and using them for a weapon you had a real problem with that i might i might actually still have a problem with that yeah it's possible we'll see what happens but overall you liked it you liked it but uh we're not high on it um not as high on as i remembered you being actually really that's happened several times it's better in your memory than it is than it is in real life or or i don't know hear me out jeff we understand it better later on yeah yeah you get all the pieces also i think this is just i i want i want someone we have some really intelligent people that listen to the show actually anyone listening to it it's not us is a lot more intelligent than yeah uh but some really smart people it would be interesting to kind of do a comparison because we talk about that concept of group think quite a bit where you know people just kind of have their own idea and And it comes together and then everyone has the same idea.

[6:36] Knowing that we're looking at our first time, we remember our first time through differently. There's something to dive into there. We've created a microcosm that someone could really look into. Hold that thought, Jeff. Oh, okay. What did you say the first time around? Well, I was really big on Bester in this episode. Of course you were. Of course you were. Oh, I planted my flag, and I planted it hard in this one. And I said Bester was right, Bester was justified, and he was actively bullied by the crew of Babylon 5. Do you want to get him or should I, folks? Hey, we'll see what happens, right? We'll see what happens. I've already admitted, like in the last, you know, when the Underground Railroad one, where it's like, oh, yeah, that was not good. But I did love this episode. I loved Jakar hitting rock bottom. I loved the Bester stuff in it. I was really, really into this one. More so than I remember being, actually. Okay. All right. That's kind of interesting. We both had some theories about Jakar in this one, shockingly.

[7:41] You thought that he was going to be the direct catalyst to Londo's redemption, even though Londo is still irredeemable. Was I right about that? Is Jakar the direct catalyst for Londo's redemption? Knowing what we know now. I want to say yes, but I don't know that he could have done it without the influence of Veer. Okay. Because 100%, like that moment when Jakar is locked up on Centauri Prime and it's just the two of them in that cell, I think that was a moment, right, that really tipped it. But I don't know that Londo would have been able to accept that catalyst had it not been for Veer. Yeah. Still the catalyst though, right? Right. Well, it was that it was also him finding out that, uh, Rifa and Morden were directly responsible for Adira's death. Oh yeah. That was a big, that was a big piece that, that was like his turning point. But when we go all the way down to the very long night of Londo Malari, right. Um, yeah. It's between him and Jakar. Yeah. Ultimately. Yeah, I think maybe I was right. We're going to count it. We'll count it. Mine was pretty good too. I said this vision is going to light a religious fire in Jakar and we're going to be hearing a lot about this moving forward. Well, take your prediction crown and shove it on your head, Jeff. Hey, we both just, we're just good at this.

[9:08] Just shoulders off there, pal. Let's not talk about all those times.

[9:13] Let's talk about the four times we were dead on. Right.

[9:17] Soulmates. Let's talk about soulmates when we got that one. So you were confused and we talked quite a bit and weren't able to like suss anything out on this one. But they talk about how dust acts on the gene, the telepath gene. Yep. And so is everyone a latent telepath? Is no one? What's the deal? Like, what is the deal with Ivanova and what does that even mean? Yeah. This is a big. Now, hold on, hold on. Let's answer that question. Is everyone a latent telepath? Does everyone have or carry the telepath gene encoded in their DNA, hey, whether it's recessive, whether it's dormant, whether it's active, or whatever. I don't think so. I think the answer is yes. I don't. The human species carries the telepathic gene. And I think in order for a person to be telepathic, I'm sure it's a recessive gene. Look at me sounding like I know how gene stuff works. Right. Brent Mendeleev over here or whatever. Right. Right, but I do know like certain genes are recessive and it requires that from both parents to come forward in a child that the telepath gene could potentially exist in everybody. It may not make them a latent telepath, but they all might possibly have the telepathic gene. What I know from the PsyCore trilogy from the books is there is a test that they can do that measures if you are or are not a telepath.

[10:46] And so my take on that is absolutely it's in the genetic code. Has it promulgated the human race yet? Probably not. Okay, fair enough.

[10:56] I don't know also there's telepaths that don't like they take the test and they don't show as as tell it's not a hundred percent sure this is the episode where uh we find out talia was dissected, we i we're going to debate that on this one so you i will i maintain like yeah you and i were in two different spots on this right well no we were no your thought was well so me i was just like oh my gosh that's crazy i can't believe that you said andrea tops thompson must have pissed somebody off and they are slamming the door shut on her ever coming back.

[11:33] Okay yeah we were all in that they actually dissected her really okay i must have had a thing later where i because i because i maintain she was not dissected this is just what bester was saying to elicit the emotional response to get because if i remember right he's got telepaths in the room. He's got Mambari telepaths in the room helping to suppress that. And if he could elicit enough of an emotional response, it would cut through that and allow him to read. And I maintain that that's why he was doing it. Other people say that he really was. And I know when I asked JMS on social media which one it was, his answer was, Yes. Is that the only reason that he said that, even though it's not live? Because I think, I think Talia is still out there somewhere. We talked at length about Psycor and who they actually cared about. This is where we start to get into Bester's kind of master plan of things.

[12:25] He specifically says we care about the people of earth, but we agreed that we, by people of earth, he meant the telepaths of earth and all that kind of the master right right we dove in pretty deeply and especially in our messages conversation but throughout avonava is willing to sacrifice her entire career to stop bester something comes up i don't remember how this happens but she's going to do the whole thing sheridan tells her the quote is that we have to fight them and not become them yeah and so we did a really really had a great conversation about that uh veer shows up here from the the the from minbari and he's wearing a coat that you desperately want a version of so if anybody out there cosplay person can make that coat for brent he'd be very appreciative uh very we took some time breaking down jakar's vision trying to figure out what was the drug and what was kosh okay um and what we decided was that basically he followed the same path that Sheridan did and all alone in the night, like took him through a number of experiences to kind of prep him and then took him to the point and decided as pretty much all kosh. And the last one I've got here was, uh, so Jakar gets sentenced in this one. Um, I said like, he better be in prison till at least like episode 13 or more on this, like he needs to serve some real time you.

[13:54] Furious about the sentence that he got oh yeah that's that's it that's all come on this is ridiculous and i'm curious if in your scouring of the internet when you found all of every single thing that joe michael straczynski has ever said about this episode did he say anything about the sentencing for jakar and what other cool things did he say i you know honestly i didn't find anything that he said about the sentencing it's ridiculous and i did an exhaustive exhaustive research looking for just that one specific question absolutely it's the big question of the whole episode it really is it really is but he did say a few other things did say a few other things couple things i'm going to say for the episode itself but talked a lot about kosh there's a lot of conversations and most of these just so you know most of the stuff that i found was him answering other people's questions it wasn't just necessarily him volunteering information so it's all going to be couched in these questions. And some of this I think will be fun to talk about in light of future knowledge. Okay. Okay. All right. So regarding Kosh, he says that we will see him outside of his suit. Actually, I loved his teaser he was putting out here for this episode. We'll see Kosh outside of his suit again in Dust to Dust, but in a somewhat unconventional fashion. Okay. Uh-huh.

[15:11] So this is the episode where he appears to Jakar as his father and then as Jaquan. Yeah. Right. I think that's the sequence that happens. Yeah. But it's all Kosh the whole time, right? Yeah. Um so yeah we do that uh there was a fun little thing that happened in this episode they changed the ending music really into credits yeah okay and the the the thing is is there was a whole lot people just like oh yeah you guys noticed so uh here's the thing we were supposed to change it in the first episode of the season but we forgot oops and we didn't catch it until this episode oh wow so hey that makes sense because the ending music has been the season one yeah ending credit the credits obviously are reflective but yeah which let me let me amend that they did change it it's not that they had changed it and they were waiting they you know chris christopher frank he did the uh he rescores the intro every time he meant to have him rescore the ending titles as well and just did and he forgot to have him do it so he had to have him do it real quick and they they got it in it's weird what happens when you are the center point of 100% of everything that happens on a production.

[16:24] Yeah. And why a wise person with lots of experience would be like, yeah, we shouldn't do that. That's a bad idea. Yeah. That's why I think he has said multiple times, never again. I liked this answer that he gave here though. He goes, why didn't we change the, why didn't we do the music change in the end credits at the start of the season? You ask what a silly question. It was all planned, all intentional. It means, or it means. Yeah.

[16:52] Do not look behind the curtain over here. Don't. Right. Yeah. Right. So you know how JMS has, has types of episodes that he puts out? Like he has like wham episodes, right? This one he has, he calls this one, what he calls a pretty box episode. Pretty box. Okay. It's a pretty box episode. Have you ever heard him talk about this before? I haven't actually. I hadn't. Here we go. In, in these types of episodes, this is where he says, I set down the pretty box that is in front of you and you think you know exactly what it is you know what the episode is but then, something else entirely jumps out of it into your face okay so it's a pretty box it's actually a jack in the box that is terrifying pretty much and there's more coming here and there's more coming there and he really likes pretty boxes he likes those sorts of episodes which works for a twilight zone type guy yeah and works for a guy who started another series where just as it was getting good we found out there was a pretty box that like a lot of stuff centered around. And now we'll never know.

[17:54] Is that Jeremiah? Crusade. Oh, oh yeah. That one too. He did say, and Jeff, we're, we are, I don't have the clip. I don't have it slowed down. I don't have to do it. So we'll just have to watch it here and maybe we do something special with it later, but let's watch for it here. He did say this. There's something to notice when you watch dust to dust again. I will note this is our again. So we get to watch for it here. All right. The montage scene with Londo and Jakar, it only lasts maybe 10 or 12 seconds. But doing that one piece, that one montage piece took John, I'm guessing John is the editor, and me hours to put together. Go through it frame by frame, and you'll see some of those bits are only three or four frames long. By the way, do you know how long one second of television is? 24. Yeah. 24 frames. Yeah. And some of them are only three or four frames yeah i think it's i think it's i don't forget the number four maybe six uh frames essentially if it's less than that it's considered subliminal advertising interesting interesting here's what i know and this is this is so weird to me here's what i have heard okay don't google me folks oh i think i know where you're going right with the the blank spots no no your your eye only sees 20 it takes 20 snapshots per second, Which is why when you watch something at 24 frames, it looks smooth.

[19:20] Right. So when I, your eye is doing the exact same thing that a video camera is, it's snapshot, snapshot, snapshot, but it's doing 20 times per second. When I was a projectionist for a while. And so I'm sorry, audio listeners, I'm going to do some hand movements for the video here. But essentially what happens, Jeff has a hand flat in front of his face right here. So it's covering his face. Here's the frame with the picture and the light flashing through it onto the screen. He has a hand going towards the camera. Then there's this like almost fan blade that comes in front of it as it changes. And then the blade moves and the next picture is there. Oh, interesting. So half of the movie you watch is actually a blank screen. Interesting. But you don't see that because between your eyes and your brain and how you interpret the signals that you see, it's perfectly smooth. What does the fan blade do? Is that what advances the film? So there's multiple pieces. it's not really a fan blade so much it's just kind of it's part of the film advancement mechanism in there huh yeah but it goes so fast it's in percept 24 times a second.

[20:22] That's the sound oh that's the sound you're hearing yeah interesting yeah interesting that's why by the way when you get something that's high frame rate it looks weird because your brain does this paradoxical thing where it's like that's too smooth i can't i can't handle that and so now i'm gonna tell you it's weird right it's like what they call that something smoothing on the TVs now, and it's just like, oh my God, I can't watch this. Yeah, it looks so weird. There was a lot of questions about the Vorlons in this one. I am not going to read through them all because we would be here all night long, but I do want to say this. He said this regarding the Vorlons. Now, Jeff, you and I have had lots of conversations about the Vorlons and the shadows and whether they're good, bad. I have maintained the Vorlons are still the good guys. You have. I have not. You have, though. The Vorlons are still the good guys. you have not and neither has the entire fandom at large this is one of those things i'm going to point to and be like it's because of this group think is a part of this because because he's saying this is what i'm telling you, I'm saying an objective read of what he puts on screen still shows Vorlons are the good guys. But anyway, here we go. He says this. A person can be sincere and manipulative at the same time, as in Kosh's case.

[21:36] He is sincere, but still manipulative. If he believes he is right, perhaps he is willing to manipulate anyone towards that goal, if it's worth it. Hmm. I think that makes a lot of sense because what he does to Jakar, right, is basically gives him the template for here's how you become part of the catalyst of saving the galaxy. Yeah. So this is the good thing I want. Also, I'm going to mess with you in such a way that will change you fundamentally. And he says this, the Vorlons can be very, he puts asterisk around the word, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, asterisk, whatever. He put asterisk around the word very. The Vorlons can be very, I love this word, invasive when they want to be, if it suits their purposes. Thus, telepaths. And what we see in today's episode with Jakar.

[22:40] Right? And Deathwalker and so many things that we've seen him just up. I'm doing this. But see, I would say not Deathwalker. Deathwalker was that they did it. Invasive. He goes into Jakar's mind here. They go into the human genome and the genome of all the races out there to do some stuff. Now, that's some shady stuff. See, I don't know that it's shady on the part of Jakar. Or, or even the telepath gene. Hey, here's this really bad thing that's coming to get you. Let me give you something that is, that is at your base level code that will help you fight it. That's not a bad thing in my book. If I go into the woods, right. And I do some psilocybin or some MDMA or something. And I'm having this great time. And someone shows up and they're like, Jeff, the answer to the universe and everything else is this and this and this. And they happen to be right.

[23:32] That's what I did that stuff for in the first place. saying yeah just saying i could see that just saying but he says there's no vorlon prime directive it's manipulation whether it's large or it's small all right yeah now i will concede that jms is very much building in that the vorlons are neither are not good that manipulation is bad and wrong and that their reason for doing this is to manipulate things for their own ends and that that makes them, if not evil, it does make them not great. It makes them not good, right? They lose the good category when they do that. I will concede that that is what JMS is trying to say. I reserve my right to change his opinion as our second watch continues to unfold. That's fair, that's fair. But as I sit right now, I look at the way that the Vorlons did it and I look at the way that the Shadows did it and I think the Vorlons way is...

[24:28] The better way. And I think it's the, I think it is the way of helping civilizations go forward, not just leaving them to their own ends, but actually helping them move forward. It is, it is through this way. I'm going to invite you and our listeners to listen to a Rush song from their, uh, there's a shock, right? Yeah. Go to the album Hemispheres and there's a song called Cygnus X-1 Book 2. I think it's about 18 minutes long and it is brilliant. But it basically tells the story of an early civilization and like first they worship just this god and everything's this. And then they worship just this god and everything is this. But then they find the god of balance and realize you need both. So I think they're both awful because you can't have all of just one or the other. But listen to that song through the lens of the Vorlon and the shadows. I do want to bring up what our friend Ben, who says in the council chambers, who is joining us live. Our council chambers are always invited to join us for our live recordings. And Ben is one of those folks. He says, I'll say it again.

[25:34] Kosh is mostly a good guy, but Kosh does not equal all Vorlons. Yeah. And I will also concede that. 98% of my experience of Vorlon's, and when I think of Vorlon's, I do think of Kosh. One not kosh two right like kosh two is bad news like there's some good stuff or okay stuff he does but wow most of it he just goes well again when one of them dies and we don't know exactly how all the vorlon are connected and inner smushed and all that kind of stuff like we we don't understand so when one of them is killed what does that mean and do to the rest of them but One of them died, and they went a ****. Oh, yeah. They went nuts. You know? Yeah. And that's what we're seeing is the response to one of their people. And they're just going, enough of this stuff. I don't know that that gives us a really good picture of who the Vorlons are when they're at their best. Because I would not say the Vorlons were at their best at that point. I think it's fair to say we never see the Vorlons at their best. Or do we? And this is the best that they are. Yeah. That's a good point.

[26:46] All right, Jeff. There was a lot of other stuff that he had here. A lot of it was little minuscule things that have to do with the episode itself or things that have to do with future episodes that don't really apply to our conversation here. I do have a couple of things I do want to talk about during the episode, but that's going to wrap us up. So why don't we go watch the episode? Let's do it right now. For those of you who are joining us, welcome, especially if this is your first episode, because every episode is someone's first. Also, Brent, did you know that every episode is also someone's favorite? it. I did know that. Yeah. And there's some episodes that should not be. It's okay. If this one is though, we'll get to the other ones here down the, down the line, but what we're going to, I want to make sure you know exactly what's going to happen from here. If you are watching us on YouTube, Brent and I are going to pull the video up right here. You're going to see it. You're going to watch it along with us. We're going to comment as things are happening. Kind of like a reaction video. If it's on YouTube that you're watching us, it will be edited up, uh, compressed. You won't see the whole episode itself. You just get the meaningful conversation and things like that. If you want the full, the unedited version.

[27:53] Maybe comments that don't make it or things like that. We post those and we post them ahead of the release, uh, at our Patreon page, patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app, or maybe, I don't know, you're watching it on YouTube, but you're not actually watching YouTube. You're just letting it play. Well, however it is, you're consuming this. If it's through audio audible, audible, you could be listening to us on audible cause we're there as well. Basically. You're just going to catch the audio of that YouTube version. Cause we're going to have some conversations in the middle of that. We don't want you guys to miss those conversations and it wouldn't be as good if we tried to rehash them again at the end because we will have already had that conversation. So we'll let you in. You'll join us for that. And certainly on the other side, we will dive into any new messages and all that sort of stuff that we have. So, Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's go. Accessing file.

[28:44] Look, I'm not taking this down. You want me to report this? Is that what you want? Because I can do that. I didn't do anything.

[28:50] Oh, Captain. Good. What rules? Well, you saw the news. Clark helped assassinate Santiago. People want to express their feelings about it. Back in the old days, Brent, when we went on a social media site that shall not be named, because I'll say regardless of your political thing, that place has just become a cesspool and it's garbage. But it used to be a pretty great, okay, not great. It used to be a pretty okay place. But we used to make some cool stuff and share it there. When we get to voices of resistance in a while, right? Voice of the resistance with Ivanova. And they have like the little screen that comes up. And it's just some ridiculous stuff we talked about. There's a picture out there you can find. I want to take this one. It's just the Ghostbusters red line over Clark. Like, no, Clark bad. Clark bad. I also am struck by how there's no like swear words on this. It's an opinion. Senate hearings back home. Nowadays, all of our protest signs have swear words on them, and that's what it is. So maybe we actually evolve past that when we get to Babylon five times. Hey, by the way, I'm going to talk about our first message here. Oh, yeah. The man goes, it's sedition, and he goes, it's an opinion. Yeah. An opinion is not sedition. Right. We need to know what sedition really is. Sedition is not disagreeing with the one who is in charge.

[30:14] Or saying that you don't like the one who is in charge or making fun of one who is in charge or any of those things. That is not sedition. And that includes, by the way, people who are actually inside the government itself and a part of the government. It is an opinion or it's a joke or whatever. It is opinions are not sedition. I would go so far as to say that is a, the ability to disagree and make jokes and do whatever is a foundational piece of why the United States was founded. And if you have questions about that, just ask King George about that. Yeah. And why that is, which by the way, we took a big chunk of how our thing is done, not only from the Greeks and the Romans, but also even from the Native Americans.

[31:03] And so this is something that has – and we have – I would like to say this idea has propagated throughout much of the world that free speech is this thing. It's great. Yeah. I'd much rather somebody say the thing than do the thing most of the time, right? You know, literally Eminem's entire defense for all the crap that he says is he's like, I'm not doing it. He has a whole song where he's like, if I did the stuff I said, that'd be crazy. Yeah. I'm just saying anyway, let's go back to decide if it's true or not. It's an attack on the presidency. The Ministry of Peace isn't here. Aren't you late for a Bund meeting or something?

[31:46] I'm in pursuit of an individual who's a danger to your station. And the psych order. Well, that's two legitimate things to worry about. Make it stop! Make it stop! Make it stop!

[32:04] Question. The Babylon Project was... Would you call that happening on the station a danger to the people in the station? Yes. Oh, Sylvester's right. I can't help but notice the turning of the face versus the not turning of the face anymore right that was really good insight look why why'd veer turn his face have these changed no the people who are turning their face we talked i don't remember what we decided what we talked about but we we did dive in no i feel like some of those are like some of those people that did not turn their face earlier have now turned their face and vice versa we need to do a thing jeff we need to do a comparison between between like okay so vera is now away on on minbar.

[32:56] Where he's doing the abraham olinconi thing and all that so he now has something to hide that he didn't at the beginning of the season so he started to turn i think he was always turning though was he always turning pretty sure i felt like lanier was turning and he didn't turn now because he was hiding his love for dylan i i think he didn't turn now i think it's a pretty legitimate thing to look back because my experience is that you remember things exactly the way they happened every time so we totally should go back and check that i remember things happen exactly as they do every time is that what you're saying steel trap steel clad yes iron trap iron trap, in theory they chase down rogue telepaths but in bestor's case that mandate is just a little broader they're not supposed to engage in unauthorized scans but with everything that's been happening lately the ministry of peace enforcing codes of conduct that situation we had with talia i also want to point out like this is the thing they're not talking about Beth Sheridan is not talking about Bester right now. He's talking about psych or it happens to be Bester, right? But like with ministry of peace with all these things going on. Well, no, that's not what he said. He said psych or comes in and does this, but with Bester, it's a different thing. Garibaldi said that Garibaldi is grinding a personal ax here. Steel trap. I know. Right. Yeah. There may be an alternative.

[34:18] But it does carry some risk. I like this a lot. And it points to the value of having like an outside person come in to help you problem solve. Delenn doesn't have any history with this. She's not constrained by Earth Force thinking or anything like that. Yeah. Just, hey, here's an idea that you probably didn't think of. If they just tried to figure this out on their own, I don't think they would have ever gotten here. Right. Which is a good point. I'm sorry, pause that.

[34:48] It's it's a good point to bring in outside folk have and here's and we'll discuss this more later i don't want to dive into it too but but sheridan here says if those are only two options neither one of those are acceptable we need to find something else to your point oh that's what we got let's get somebody else in here though that can help us give us a third option that might be more acceptable come in and ask that dumb question it's like oh gosh yeah i guess this could work Yeah. Although she looks like she's treading very close water. Yeah.

[35:23] I do quite love this jacket. Really? Oh, this cosplay. This is my cosplay when I go to some nerd convention. It'd be such a deep cut. It'd be great. Nobody would know it. It's very nice. Wear it when you're there, not here. You're a centauri, remember? I could wear it to a Star Trek convention. And just see who catches it. I've never been to Mimbar. What's it like? It's very cool. We saw how many people caught it when I wore a Babylon 5 shirt at Star Trek Convention. Not many. They're like foreigners. But the religious cast? Very, very friendly. I don't know you. You're kind the way I do. They don't understand. I think it's some kind of a joke. She's monologuing. Stop monologuing. Just do it. Nothing works with you people. Nothing but force. Defense grid, prepare to fire. Fire! Lay that order. Standing fire. It's nice that the computer follows his orders. Don't throw your career away on this. What am I supposed to do?

[36:32] Fight them without becoming them. We talk about it at length in the first time, so I'm not going to dive into it, but just, oh my God. If the world could accept that, fight them without becoming them, we'd live in such a different place. Right. These are Mimbari telepaths. Nothing like a level playing field to ruin a psychop's day. Am I right, Mr. Bester? I deeply respect Sheridan just naming it and calling it. There's no sneakiness. There's no nothing. And he's just like, you're a snake. I'm treating you like a snake. Okay. I'm going to put your thing to the challenge here, Jeff. Okay.

[37:11] The last time Sheridan, specifically Sheridan, came face-to-face with Bester, what happened? That was the Underground Railroad. Yep. And he and Franklin showed up and were aware that the blips did their little mind thing with him. Uh-huh. And? And so he understands that, like, he's a horrible guy. Right. And he is aware of the image or whatever that Talia put into his mind. Yes. And he is aware that when Bester left the station last time, he walked out believing he had shot and killed the entire room full of blips. And was okay doing it. And he was okay doing it and allowing it to be covered up. That's Sheridan's experience now. And Sheridan is treating him, I'm going to say, with respect, like confrontational respect. I'm not going to mince words, but I'm going to say exactly what I need to say. But you're here. I can't stop you from whatever. I mean, at least he's giving the guy an audience. Right. You think anybody that just walks on the station gets to go talk to the commander in his office with senior staff present? No. And a bunch of men barry? Like, that's a pretty big deal. Frankly, I don't trust you as far as I can throw this station, and I hold you personally. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Do you know why that was?

[38:40] That's why the action figure is a thing. The tiny little Babylon 5. The tiny little, so he can throw it. That's why the figure. That's why it's here. This is dust to dust, Sheridan, in Earth Force uniform. It's actually not the Earth Force uniform. Pass the door. Remember what happened to the non-homeworld, Vizek. Jeez. Would not want the same to happen to your own. Wow. Ask Shakar.

[39:06] Dude, he can say that, though. No, but look, he can say that as a threat because they did it. They did it. He could be bluffing the entire way. Sometimes I think maybe Londo could use a visit there. I think it would do him good. You know, I think this only feeds into the idea that the Mimbari really are the good folk. Like, they're supposed to be the good guys out there. Like, he's, Veer is all like whatever, and he is just thriving on Mimbar. Yeah. Because he's a good person, and good people thrive in good situations. I think specifically religious cast minbari are supposed to be that because he bad mouths the warrior well he calls a warrior cast what they are when he comes on question what is this episode right now it's the pretty box what is the box jms is setting in front of us that we just know what this episode is going to be oh at this point we've got the telepath story and then we've got the drazi centauri thing.

[39:58] It's standing up to Bester. There we go. Bester and Londo, they're the bad guys of the episode. Yeah. And is preparing to sell mass quantities of dust to foreign governments to be used as weapons. Think about it, Mr. Garibaldi. To this point, he has no evidence for that. Do you know anyone here who might have an interest in buying weapons that can't be seen or traced until it's too late? The packet contains more than you hoped for. You can go now you know i'm pretty sure genetics would put out there that there have been, some narn telepaths over the years right whether they knew that that's what they were or not or that narn like they would not have been strong but somebody would have been, you had a few you would have had they might have been very very rare, but there might there would have been a few yeah i think you're right just if you're still carrying the gene i want to play a little fantasy casting with you right now oh so i like this game we can take two characters two special guest stars within babylon five this guy lindstrom and anyone else that's been a guest star and swap them who would you swap him with.

[41:17] Is there a correct answer to those questions? Yeah, there is. Is it stoner? I thought that'd be kind of just the stoner. Is it the bull guy from Night Court? Bull from Night Court? Nope. Who is it? Bryan Cranston. Oh. Right? You can substitute anybody for Bryan Cranston, and that's going to win. Right. But yeah, I mean, at this point, we had no idea. But then it'd totally be the pre-breaking bad. Dylan says in a graph. Oh, yeah.

[41:50] We know what happened to Nagrath, Jeff. We know what happened. The puppet is sitting in the closet. That's ridiculous. Save Nagrath. The product has never been tested on Narns. There's dangers all around us. And whether you like us or not, we may be all that stands between you and the abyss. That is Bester's raison d'etre. Yeah. That is Bester. Like he, there is no lie in anything he just said. Agreed. And to your earlier point, Bester is the hero of his own story. Everything he's doing, he thinks is the truly the right thing to do. And that's his, that's his, his point there. It's the thing I think about in terms of like in management, we often talk about, uh, you've probably heard this before. You don't have to like each other. You just have to work together. I think what I almost would have said I love I wouldn't have changed anything Bester said but almost would have been like hey Garibaldi you don't like me anymore than these other people that's fine we have an existential threat occurring on this station right now that you and I are partnered on doing together can we at least have the professional respect to do this job, you don't have to like me we have to work together yeah but he took it a whole level further.

[43:12] Oh is this the one where he looks at his he starts looking at his hand and stuff, okay is he actually going down the hallway here, Because it's all in his head. Because he ends up with Londo, so he does move.

[43:30] Just a little PSA for people. You're going to do hardcore hallucinogens. Don't do them alone. Not if you're inexperienced. There's a rookie mistake right here. Noted. Well, I was supposed to be up to that point.

[43:47] You know what I loved about that scene with Chakar? What's that? Was it followed Bester and Garibaldi out there in the Zocalo, and he's like, oh, my gosh, the silence. It's so quiet. And then, boop, we got to hear some of the noise that came through. Oh, good call. Yeah. Good point, Jeff. You stay out of my head. Now, I got rights. I'm sorry. Did I say something? That happens sometimes. I said no. The guy's still here, isn't he? Question yeah yeah yeah he's still here probably ought to be hands off there brian who was the bad guy in that scene the character it was garibaldi yeah not bester, garibaldi garibaldi played into the good cop bad cop thing and and he did the moment he put his hands on him yeah uh bester had a card and he played the card and he did it masterfully Well, the odds were good that he was lying about something Right? Liars are always afraid that somebody's... I don't know if he ever interrogated anybody, Mr. Garibaldi But he was lying With a vehicle for his paranoia The badge and the uniform do have certain... Advantages They're like intimidation? But... Garibaldi.

[45:06] Goose gander, just like your badge and your uniform. Bester is making a very good point and he's not wrong. And I'll call it out. Garibaldi was wrong to touch that guy. I, I didn't have a problem with anything else that he did, but, but as soon as he grabbed him and jinked him back and all that sort of stuff, you know, um, no good. But there was a question that was asked to JMS about the scene, Jeff. Oh, okay. If Garibaldi knew that Bester was drugged, then why did he suspect Bester of reading the smuggler? You're not supposed to be able to do that, but I just saw you do that. Yeah. So WTF, mate. Now, JMS's response, though, he says it came from the fact that Garibaldi doesn't trust anything about Bester and that it's not totally out of the realm of possibility for Bester to have found some way to defeat the drug. I think that's what you and I just said, only with more words. If not, then his line was basically another way of saying, what the are you doing and why are you doing it? And why the hell didn't you tell me you were going to do this before pulling it? Because if we're going to be buddy cops. Yeah, we need to know these things. We got to do this beforehand, right? I would just say that that whole scene was just Bester telling Garibaldi, I'm better at this job than you. That scene was Bester Bester.

[46:29] Showing he doesn't need the telepath stuff to do what Bester does best. Yeah. Ah, what Bester does best. Yes.

[46:41] Oh. Darth Vader. Vader. The dropping of the glass. Whoa. Right. That's about as good as pain.

[47:01] Frankly that whole scene was pretty camp that was like i was sitting there thinking for as much, accolades as we give peter and andreas that one not the top for them if if if you're if you're not a babylon 5 fan and you're just tuning in and that's the scene you see and you see the makeup and you see the hair and you see that right there you're going no i'm out yeah i'm out i don't know if you saw veer in his quote in his coat when he came on not a little dude and for chikar to be like i'm just holding him like this yeah it's just yeah not not the highest point for them, it was the highest point for rear though i sat on the floor, this whole scene reminds me of a sierra game police quest where like you're hiding behind the bush waiting to come out and do the arrest with uh hoffman i think is the character but like you got to come out at the right time otherwise it all messes up dude lando got jacked man we skipped a good chunk of just whooping yeah.

[48:09] Honestly, Londo needs this ass kicking. He really did. I mean, I'm not saying he should have put his hands on him, but Londo kind of deserved it. I love his whimpering, too. He's just, oh, yeah. When I was in pro wrestling, I worked as a manager for a while, so I worked with the bad guys and stuff. And I learned you can't always win as the bad guy. You have to give the crowd. You have to give them a win from time to time. Otherwise, you just become hated and no one cares anymore. And so there's, I remember one of the things is after a couple of shows, I would have the good guys throw me out of the ring and fall, you know, like down to the, down to the mat. And then I just like pick somebody in the audience and I just look at him and be like, stop looking at her and cry. Like in whimper, like a little wimp and give them that whole, like, Oh, look, he's an idiot. He could be beaten. It's kind of like what Londo's doing now where you're just like, yeah, whimper. You little.

[49:09] In other words the position is really little more than what a joke yes yes i remember this conversation yeah i'm sorry set so much of a foundation for the character what have you done only what you asked me to do you had a problem with carbon 37 we took care of it for you yes but you killed 10 000 and just like that we were in a clip show yep but it's not a clip show Why don't you eliminate the entire non-homeworld while you're at it? One thing at a time, Ambassador. Here's the thing. Londo clearly wasn't serious about that. Right. It was you. No, it wasn't. That's like me being like, just give me all 31 flavors. It's your fault i can't decide anything neuron by neuron all of it, very much making up for that campy acting earlier this is the scene yeah and we need to pay attention to this.

[50:16] Oh it keeps getting faster and faster it is enough interesting so that i can 100 corroborate that took hours to make it get it right on the beat and everything and us yeah to pull the find the photo pull the photo i am.

[50:35] Who i have always been okay i have a question too late for you so this is kosh yes okay how does he know that dude's tripping how does he was he walking by in the hall and he saw something going on and he's like dude i need to intervene there i is there a sixth sense that somebody's on a trip and you got to go spirit walk home like what's happening i i don't understand why cautious suddenly uh i i can understand why he's pushing himself in i can understand all that but, how did he know why was this the opportunity he chose to take like what's where's where's caution why is caution all this because he comes out of left field on this one yeah like you'd never see him coming my theory is that we got a seed planted that told us earlier when again garibaldi and best are on the zocalo and it's like oh my gosh it's like it's so quiet it would be like seeing what is a scene with only one eye or working with only one hand or something like that. So you have this constant noise. Kosh basically probably can just like sense Kosh.

[51:51] To psychic energy happening and he's like there's a disturbance in the force in the force right essentially and then he's like oh god it's it's jakar here's my moment.

[52:02] If we are a dying people then let us die with honor by helping the others as no one else can, this is an interesting conversation to listen to in light of somebody saying oh who's who needs to go away the centauri or the narn and kosh going yes like kosh kosh has already declared look these these guys just need to go away they need to be wiped off he's like if we're dying race let's at least go out with honor let's at least do some stuff it's almost like kosh is trying to push for the obliteration of the narn yeah but in a good way like but if you're gonna do it hey listen you're going out let's go out with good stuff yeah you know uh i'm gonna have a lot more to say about this particular conversation at the end of the show so stick with us but uh, where have you been i have always been here i've always been here.

[53:04] Now, all of this is happening in Jakar's mind in a trip. Yeah. In a telepathic moment. Ego death. We need to write this down on our thing. An audio podcast topic of comparing what Jaquan slash Kosh said to Jakar here and how what this did physically changed what he did in the story going forward. Use and purchase of prohibited material how do you plead guilty your honor jacar is very tilk in this moment sure in my book that constitutes premeditation, makes sense since there are no outstanding points to be contested and the plea jacars are like oh yeah man i've been thinking about this for a long time, he has been entered for a period of no less than 60 days that's really short, for what he did like way short they're seeing the value in your position, it should never be a joke to them via never let them think that.

[54:21] I wish in this episode, in the moments when Veer was talking to Delennon Lanier and in this conversation here, they dropped hints that he was doing the Abraham Olin County stuff. It's a little things like, no, I have very important work to get to. Oh, no, there's some time, just whatever that pointed to it. But yeah. I hope you don't mind the rush to get you off station, Mr. Bester. But the doc says that injection is going to wear off soon. Well, you know how it is. I do indeed. Everyone. So pay attention to this scene. Notice what Bester says and notice who is and is not around him when he says it. Let's take a note. Sheridan is not there. Doesn't look like the memorial there. They might be back there, though. Just watch the whole thing. Watch through the whole thing here. What I'm going to say, just real quick, is every time I'm like, hey, look at this. No, they said this thing and dusted up. Pay attention. Pay attention. For what it's worth, Mr. Garibaldi, I enjoyed working with you. We made a good team. Perhaps we'll do it again sometime. Not a chance. The best are above board.

[55:30] No one's there. This is Koenig right there. I tried to send to you, but I couldn't get through. Doesn't matter. We'll finish our business here later. You know. Give her a kiss, Walt. I said all along this whole dust idea wasn't going to work. We spent five years developing this stuff, tying it into latent genes. And it hasn't produced one telepath of acceptable strength among the normal population. Oh, well. At least we got it out of the hands of aliens and back among the humans where it belongs. They made a point of clearing the area before he said that. So I want to be crystal clear when I say this so there's no misunderstandings. Bester is a piece of garbage and a terrible human being. And most of the people on Babylon 5 do not know that to the extent that they treat, like it is not commensurate the way they are treating him with what they have seen. We are fighting to save one another. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved.

[56:42] All right, Brent, I say we get right into the conversation. You brought it up when we were watching. Unless you have anything else you want to dive into, let's talk about the vision. I particularly liked this line. It no longer matters who started it. It only matters who is suffering. Our friend Brent then actually gave us the full quote. He says, the Centauri started it. And he's like, and will you continue until there are no more Narns and no more Centauri? If both sides are dead, no one will care which side deserves the blame. It no longer matters who started it, Jakar. It only matters who is suffering. I find this to be an incredibly interesting statement from a Vorlon, specifically from a Vorlon. Yeah. Given what we know of the Shadow-Vorlon conflict.

[57:32] Oh okay okay that it doesn't matter because that's the whole thing with the shadows and they don't remember why they're fighting they don't remember who started it they don't remember they they all they know is is they're just going for their way and they've got to do they have to be against the other people because they're against the other people you do this we do that you're wrong and and in the meantime most of us are suffering and i don't is that fair to say okay we're suffering take well hold on take out when the vorlons went back crazy and they just started obliterating everybody are the galaxy are the civilizations of the galaxy suffering because of the vorlon influence because of the vorlon or shadow influence i mean shadows because they're obliterating people which is what makes them the bad guys but even under the vorlons are people really suffering sure they might be being manipulated but are they suffering their societies Societies are advancing. Societies are growing where my mind goes is the way they, the generally the way, I mean, they manipulated through science, you know, genetic things like that. But one of the primary ways that they manipulated across the board was in introducing religious iconography, faith, things like that.

[58:45] And I just, and this is not a fully formed thought, but my mind just goes into all of the harm and suffering that has come as a result of people's misinterpretation of the teachings of their faith. Would that be the case had the Borlawn not, and this is a reach, right? But it's one of those things where the shadows and the suffering because of the shadows, it's right there. It is plain as day.

[59:08] There's the suffering. I think the Borlawns might be more subtle. Because it's invasive, because it's manipulative, it's not as obvious as the Shadows. But is that on the Vorlons? Okay. Here's the thing. We can directly tie chaos, destruction, and obliteration to the Shadows. Yeah. We watch the Shadows blow up ships and stations and colonies. We can directly tie that influence to what they did with the Centauri and all of that sort of stuff. And that's just what we've seen in our own show. Forget about what all's happened throughout history, right? Your example is using the stuff that the Vorlon promote, religion, art, and all this sort of stuff, and the crimes and atrocities that people have committed in those names through a bastardized version. Yeah, things people did, not the Vorlon did. That's not necessarily on the Vorlons, though. That's how people twisted it. And people are going to twist stuff. No matter what planet you're from, people are going to twist stuff. It's going to happen, right? And that's why it's on us to police those sorts of things and to call those things out. But that does not inherently make culture, religion, science, art, wrong, bad, or evil. In fact, I would tell you that none of those things really are wrong, bad, or evil. It's what you put to them. Yeah. It's kind of like money. Money is neutral. There is no such thing as good money, bad money. But money is not good or bad for anyone. All it does is it enhances who you are already.

[1:00:37] So I would push back on what you're saying because I hear what you're saying. And i would just yeah but that's not on the vorlons that's on the people so i think that's i i agree i absolutely agree i don't think it's a what i think is it's not a question of looking at the shadows and the vorlon and what they're doing that's causing suffering if we look back a thousand years ago 10 000 years ago it's their conflict in which people suffer entire races were erased the narn lost their you know their telepath stuff like awful things happened to the races because of the shadow what we call the shadow wars that happened but they were shadow vorlon wars it was the conflict the war that caused the suffering not necessarily the individuals i mean shadows did not taking anything away from that but it was the war i think i i don't disagree And I want to respond to what some of our council chamber folks are saying over here.

[1:01:36] Dillon says, remember that the Vorlons are also holding the younger races back by blowing up tech that they feel that the younger races aren't ready for. Okay, but are they wrong? I don't even think it's a question of right or wrong. I think they're holding back. They're not necessarily causing suffering because they're right or wrong. They're not causing death and destruction, right? Yeah. Right? Becky says that – and Becky brings up the main argument that I always bump up against. Okay? And I'm going to validate that. I just don't know that I agree with it in the light of everything. But we'll go to it. It is on the manipulative authoritarian race, which has decided what is best for other people, that people then behaved in ways because of how they were manipulated. You manipulated me to do this. And so then I started doing that. And I did that because you manipulated me to do such. And Becky goes on to say that I would argue that, yes, the people who had the power were responsible. Manipulating a person is not a gift. I will agree with you. Manipulating people is not a gift. Am I manipulating my child when I try to teach my child how to behave and what my value system is? Am I manipulating my child that way? I don't think that's similar. So your child, I think you have an obligation to teach and manipulate and whatever. are the vorlong.

[1:02:59] What'd you just say? Oh yeah, manipulate. Absolutely. You have an obligation to- Teach, manipulate, whatever. Teach and manipulate. As a manager, as a supervisor, it's my job to teach, coach, and manipulate to get a thing done. Absolutely. Okay. But that's an established relationship. And does that make it bad? But does that make it bad? Inherently bad? No.

[1:03:17] Also, there's an established relationship that forms that. If a parent wasn't doing those things, they're not doing their job. If a supervisor's not doing those things. I think that just for the sake of the conversation, there's the assumption that manipulation equals bad, and I am saying that is not the case. What I'm saying is –, The difference with the Vorlons is there is no established relationship. There is no obligation. They are not required to teach, to coach, to manipulate, to do those things. Whereas a parent, it is. I don't think they're the same thing. Let me ask you this.

[1:03:52] Do you remember that episode of Stargate? Okay. And this whole body, I'm going to stretch on this one. All right. Get ready. Just get stretched out. Follow it. We're doing some stuff. Do you remember the episode pretense? which was the, it's the, it's the trial of, of, uh, of Scarra. Yes, where they're they're deterred there. It's the battle for the who has rights to the body. For those of you who haven't seen that episode, there is a parasite organism that has taken over an individual and it actually goes on trial to decide who actually gets precedence over the body. Is it the parasite or is it the person and the personality to whom the body originally belonged to which all of us makes it seems it's obviously the person to whom it originally belonged. But the name of the Gould, who was the lawyer for the other side, and I forget his name off the top of my head, but he makes a very good point. He's like, you have cattle, you have pigs, you have these lower life forms. Do you not consider them to be service animals? Do you not consider them to be food? We consider ourselves much higher, and we consider this, we consider humans to be basically the same thing that you guys consider that. So you're our property and we have – that's how we think of you.

[1:05:04] Using that, if the Vorlons consider their responsibility to younger races as a race, not necessarily as individuals but as a race, is it really that different? And the established relationship being what? We are all beings who lived and came up through this galaxy. So I don't think it's different, but also I think that the Goa'uld are wrong. In that assertion sure they are yeah which and that's why i said we're gonna stretch i said we're stretching but my point being the gould had a vision and an understanding of the relationship between the two that the other necessarily did not anybody who's a manager or supervisor and says you don't manipulate people to do things you are lying to yourself you're lying yeah yeah i'm just saying i think it is feasible that both forlorn and shadow.

[1:05:54] Consider an established relationship with the races so i think the difference there is that because i think we explored this in the stargate again this is not a stargate podcast but we have one of those so but in the episode when they fall upon the unas right and the unas are being you being sold as is as cattle and the whole thing oh yeah yeah yeah both sg1 and the unas are like yeah we're not they're not that this isn't okay we're gonna break them out we're gonna change this in a supervisor employee relationship that is hopefully in most of the time consensual both parties have consented to that relationship parent and child not necessarily consensual but it's baked in like it is it's how we're literally designed to be elder race and younger race now that's just a bunch of people sticking their nose in other people's business okay and the Vorlon and the Shadows, they're fighting, and if it's all about film, is due solely to the fact of they don't know who they started it. They really don't even know why they're doing it, and people are suffering because of it. And the fact we're saying this now is like, hello. Yeah. To quote John Sheridan, it's like giants playing in our playground. Well, Brent, this episode was very rich with a lot to talk about, clearly. And there's a lot of stuff we left on the table and more diving in we can do.

[1:07:16] Stuff that we're not even qualified necessarily to go in. That's the great thing about so many Babylon 5 episodes is, I mean, there's a lot of deep diving that you can do and difficult conversations. But our time for conversation has ended, and it's time to put our money where our mouth is. Brett, we are creating the completely accurate, 100% objective ranking of all the episodes of the third season of Babylon 5 as we watch it for the second time. This is on you to rank this week. We currently have five episodes ranked. This will be our sixth. In fifth place, we have Convictions. Fourth is Matters of Honor. Started the season off with that. Three, A Day in the Strife. Number two, Voices of Authority. And in the top spot currently, we'll see if it stays or not, is Passing Through Gethsemane. Brent, where do you place Dust to Dust?

[1:08:08] Jeff, you might not like me. Because the dogs keep barking? Yeah. It's getting bigger. Here's the thing. Our number one episode is Passing Through Gethsemane. Right now, yeah. Fantastic episode. not untouchable though very true i'm going to tell you this is ostensibly better than passing it through gethsemi this is a better episode than that episode that episode maintained its place on our first watch much higher for a much longer time than it really had any right to it's a phenomenal episode in terms of messaging and what it says and where it's going but as an episode of television as a, as an executed deal, this is a far better episode. This, and given the ranking, I don't have to look further than that. This is our new number one episode on the season. Brent, I don't disagree. Uh, in our initial first time ranking, these two were very close to each other. Dust to dust landed at number 11. We actually talked about this last week because you had a prediction that wouldn't, it won't rank very high or it'll be in the bottom half. Well, it's at the bottom of the top half. Passing through Gethsemane came in at number nine on our first watch. And to me, that makes a lot of sense because.

[1:09:21] This episode's fantastic, but like many we have watched, so much more nuance and so many more layers because this is our second time viewing. And so with that, Brent, that's Dust to Dust. We're done. Next week, we're watching an episode called Exogenesis. Exogenesis. Oh, I know this episode. Yeah. Oh, I remember this episode. We have thoughts on this one, and I'm really excited to dive into this one for a second time.

[1:09:46] When we watched this the first time, we played a game where we guessed, We predicted what the episode was going to be about based on the title alone. Do you remember what your prediction was? Oh, man. Uh, yes, I do. Um, this episode was, I said, bugs, exo, exoskeleton. Right. You think of bugs.

[1:10:07] Genesis is the beginning. Okay. So I said there's something in this universe that looks very much like bugs. Oh, okay. those shadow ships. This is the origin of the shadow ships specifically is what I said. That'd be a good episode. What'd you say? I, I got on this tear about the, the first ones recruitment missions with Havana and Marcus. And I really thought that thing that we really never, ever see again, but it's supposed to be just happening continually in the background. It gets mentioned again. It comes up. Sure. I think so at least, but I figured that would be this, right? Like they're out doing a recruitment mission. And in that, the exact mirror of you, I thought we would start learning about the Vorlon and their early involvement with Earth and kind of their development on the galactic stage. And we...

[1:11:01] Both quite wrong very wrong because well i was right about one thing bugs yeah bugs definitely are a part of this bugs exogenesis not one of the more popular episodes within the fandom i am gonna sit right now and i'm gonna make a the bad nerds guarantee that next week episode of us babylon 5 for the second time is one you do not want to miss it's gonna be great and to make sure you don't miss it make sure you're subscribed wherever you're listening wherever you're watching. Leave us a rating, leave us a review, comment, do all that great stuff. We love interacting with you. We've mentioned it during the discussion itself, but our Council Chambers subscribers are invited to all of our recordings. We also get to hang out from time to time. It's awesome. One of my favorite things to do. If you want to be a part of that or just have access to all of the cool content that exists on our Patreon page, click the link in the show notes, join our Patreon. Be great to have you a part of that community.

[1:11:57] That's not on the cards for you and you still want to help us out and support the show share it share this show with somebody who might enjoy it as much as you do or even more so until next week we're going to start talking about bugs and all kinds of cool stuff so i'm going to wrap up hey jeff yeah what's up brent okay so talia's dissection we got to go back through no yes if we're gonna if we are gonna talk here at the end you're gonna tell us the chicky story it's more involved than the time we have right now. So we'll have to push that off for another week. Okay. Are you serious?