Exogenesis | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026, the name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time.

[0:52] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. Hi, Brent. Hi, Jeff. Hi there. I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I, in case you didn't know, Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters. And then on a whim, we decided to watch Babylon 5 for the first time. And everything changed at that moment. It really was a whim, wasn't it? It really was. It was a whim. Let's do this thing. Let's just try this out. Sure, you want to try it? Yeah, let's try it. Sure, why not? What could go wrong, we said. 110 episodes, in, out, done. Right? Yeah, here we are. 110 in and out. Why are we doing this for the second time then? Well, Babylon 5 is a TV show that you get to watch for the first time twice. And that's exactly what we're doing. You know what also we're doing for the first time twice, Jeff? What's that? We are looking for the messages that are contained within. Yes, we are. Uh, messages that either JMS himself meant or ones that possibly we just pull out. We're talking about those things that sci-fi does so well, you know, those things that like hold up a mirror to society today, even though it was made 30 years ago, or I don't know, maybe things that give us hope that things can be better in the future. Or warnings of where not to go in the future or things that teach us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, Jeff mentioned that this is our second time watch. So this is a spoiler warning for any, I feel like we should have like a, like an alarm.

[2:15] Yeah. Something like that. Right. Uh, I'm not going to do that because that's annoying to listen to, but this is your spoiler warning for anyone who has not seen Babylon five for the first time all the way through. We urge you to stop. Imagine that we are telling you to stop Stop listening to this show, but the good news is we actually have a spoiler free first watch that you can go join us for. It's just right up in the feed to scroll back and it'll be there. You guys can check out our first watch. And then when you get all the way through it and you catch back up to us here, we'll see you then for the second watch, because trust us, it's way better that way. But this is your spoiler wording, because from this point forward, anything from any point in the franchise, any part of the timeline, extra canonical in canon, out of universe, in universe, from cons, whatever it is, it's all fair game for Jeff and I to talk about. Hey, Brent, we are watching the episode Exogenesis for the second time. Exogenesis. Do you remember what your first time viewing experience was? What do you remember from this one? Yeah, this is the one about the bugs.

[3:12] TNG did this episode, but I don't think they did it as well. I know that Conspiracy is considered a top season one TNG episode. I have always hated it. Really? I do not like that episode. I don't. The graphics are horrendous. I think the story is dumb. I think the acting is bad. I just do not enjoy that particular episode. This one, I really remember liking. I really remember liking it. And I think I remember having the thought, like, I liked it a whole lot more than it had any right to be liked. But I really liked it. It is another episode, though, that upon further reflection, I thought was going to have a much bigger impact and kind of turned into a nothing burger. I get in trouble every time I say that. But it did. It just nothing really came out of this episode. And it's a shame because it set up such a cool idea. How about you, Jeff? I love this episode.

[4:03] I loved the idea of the Vendreezy. I loved the Marcus Franklin buddy cop stuff. Like it's almost as good as the Bester Garibaldi buddy cop stuff. Almost. But like, I mean, I don't remember anything in this episode I didn't like or enjoy. I think that we understood this wasn't going to be like tip of the spear storyline thing. But just like we're out looking for first ones, these Vendreezy were going to be like in the back pocket. You know, this thing that as we got closer to the big deal, they would become a real game changer in the war against the shadows. They're called the Vendreezy. Vendreezy. Okay, help me out. What was the name of Jokey McJokerson? I always forget his name, and I'm going to rely on the council. Isn't it Vendreezy? It is not Vendreezy. It's close to that. I have a name, but it sounds more like an infection name than what it is.

[4:56] The type of. I feel like we hear this word a lot. Varini. and verini or vizini i think it was verini vizini varenzi forenzi, Vendreezy. Okay. Yeah. So today is the Vendreezy. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, I'm excited to watch this one for the second time mostly because having completed this for the first time, in my opinion, this is one of just a handful of episodes that you could wipe from the canon and no one would even notice. Which is unfortunate to say because there's some really cool Corwin stuff in this. I think this is one of the cool Corwin stuff. It's a good episode. It's a good 45 minutes of TV. It just but here's the thing had it had a bigger impact on the overall story i promise you this would be a much higher higher rated episode but because it doesn't people i've seen people in our council chambers chat over here who've been like yeah i tend to skip this one on rewatches i've seen a handful of people say that over there and i can't blame you because it doesn't mean much it makes me think this is the day of 22 episode seasons you know and that's the thing we bemoan now in the day of eight to ten episode seasons and i mean yeah babylon five is this massive of packed story with everything, but also 22 episodes. You're going to have a couple. You're going to have a couple. And this is one. But we always talk about like, and this is I think where we've come, a filler episode is not a bad episode. Filler episodes are where you get to explore character stuff.

[6:19] It's where we get to know our people better. It's where little, like you mentioned Corwin. Corwin gets a big boost out of this particular episode. I think Marcus does too. I think. Yeah. That's the lens I want to watch us through. We have not had a lot of Marcus to this point. We're seven episodes in and haven't had a bunch of Marcus. I'm curious, like watching this one, how much of my love for Marcus as the story got planted here? It's possible. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Jeff, that's what we remembered. It is. But I went back and listened to our first episode and I know what we actually said back then. Would you like to know?

[6:58] You could be like, you hated this thing. Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready. We actually both thought it wasn't a great episode. Really? But it was a good episode. Okay. It was good. Not great. It's not one that we said we would skip, but we also wondered how this episode ranks in the fandom. There's a big question we had. How does this episode rank in the fandom? And I think in general, probably not very high. Again, when we first watched it, we didn't know what we didn't know because what this episode set up for us in the vast majority of our talk, Jeff. Was red string spinning of where this could go.

[7:35] Not what this was picking up from behind, but where this was gonna lead was a lot of what we said. A couple episodes ago, we said that a particular episode was gonna be the geometry of shadows of season three.

[7:46] Actually, I said it again for this episode. We're gonna have to get to the end of the season before we realize what the impact of this episode is. And we're just kind of feeling that it could have that sort of a thing. Well, ultimately, you're right. we did have to get to the end of the series to understand this had no impact yeah yeah i actually said my fear was that these guys be the techno mages and we would never see them again gosh they're even more techno mages than the techno mages because like yeah we did get if you continue through you do get to see them again what's really cool though is i actually really love you doubled down on your techno mage theory though you're like you're like no no we're gonna see the techno mages again they're gonna come back at the end for the big because this is when we thought the whole show would wrap up with the big war it's like it's like it's like an avengers end game like the portals are going to open up and they're just going to step through and like you know like everybody all these people that we have met are just going to all kind of come forward which i think would have been awesome it would have been really cool you know what i mean like even even the illuminati guys or whatever they were lumati yeah yeah those guys right there that's what i'm talking about you know those guys coming back and be like hey hey you wanna you wanna we've perfected human style and have them do the dance around thing like have them do it oh man exactly oh my god they're trying to they're trying to seal the deal and that's what they're doing.

[9:10] Uh i said that this episode is what infection should have been okay, Yeah, I was intrigued. I was grossed out and I was all in on, wait a minute, wait a minute, what here? Oh, I was all in on whether or not these guys were more Gould or more Tok'ra. Really? I was super invested in whether or not, and that's for our Stargate fans right there. Jeff didn't know at the time what I was talking about. He gets it now, but I was, I was really all in on which one were they? Were they Gould or were they Tok'ra? Okay. Yeah. That makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah.

[9:44] We wound up having more questions than answers about these guys, like who created them because they talk about they were created apparently. So who created them? We both were very much on these guys coming back and playing a big part at the end is what we were really hoping. You loved Marcus out of this episode. Yeah. And from this point forward, Jeff, you were – you pushed all in. I mean all chips into the center on him and Ivanova hooking up eventually. Did I really? and you failed because she should have boffed him at least once here's the thing and she didn't but they they actually they came to in a much more meaningful way like on multiple levels yeah while he was dying while they're romeo and julietting right there that's you know the most romantic story of all time that's actually but at least romeo and juliet got to have a night or two or three together they had a kiss they were married and they had their honeymoon night yeah.

[10:41] I wanted them though i wanted them to kind of be like a ross and rachel type situation well they won't well they won't or like when one's ready the other one's actually hooked up with somebody else and then that one breaks up about the time that this one hooks up with somebody else and yeah i i kind of wanted them to do that except marcus would be the one with the rachel hair in this one yes he would that's true that's true he's a shoe it's not a shoe i don't want to be a shoe. Uh, you first picked up on the buddy cop show that is Marcus and Franklin. You were, you were all about that. Um, yeah, And finally, you actually, Jeff, I'm going to give us some homework. And by us, I mean you. And if not you, Aira or someone, you had a fantastic diatribe in the messages section on this one. Okay. Like to the point it's worth in going to pull the clip of and using it on social media and putting it out as one of our short reels.

[11:35] Your message was super fantastic. I'm not going to recap it here. I'm only just going to say it's good. And if you guys don't remember what it was, I would also suggest going back to our first watch of this episode and you can skip, I don't know, 35 minutes into the episode or something like that. And, and Jeff, it was, it was really a great, great message. Really? Okay. Yeah. You, and you, and you just, you, you, uh, elocuted, is that a word? It is now. It is now you elocuted beautifully on it. Like it was well done. It was very well done. I was proud to be your podcasting partner at that point. Put enough monkeys on typewriters.

[12:15] So that's what I got, Jeff. Now you, my friend, got to scour the interwebs and see what JMS himself had to say about it. Did you find anything of note or interesting from that?

[12:28] Not much. I can imagine. Sometimes he has a lot. Other times he doesn't. Yeah. There's kind of three things, really. And there's one thing for during the episode, but we're talking about Marcus and Ivanova, right? So apparently, like, there's a line that at the moment kind of seems ha-ha. But no, the line is essentially like Marcus and Ivanova should get along well. Assuming one doesn't kill the other first. Okay. That's heavy when you think about it. Because one does kill the other one doesn't kill the other oh it's true like one yeah like oh yeah it's true uh he talked a little bit about writing for marcus and again like this is what the third time that we've seen him all season and he says i have the same problem with marcus as i have with londo getting him to shut up once i wire him up and let him go oh yeah it's a lot of fun to write in that he can do the physical action stuff very well he can do comedy more dramatic emotional stuff he's got the whole range what i love about that is like he's just such a fully formed character that we've seen three minutes of yeah this one's kind of long and uh i'm not gonna lie this was disheartening for me okay starts out he says this is the last non-arc episode for quite some time and it's probably the most ordinary story of the bunch my personal evaluation of the.

[13:54] Some production problems came up that took me away from the script for about a week. This was the labor dispute that we talked about a while ago, the Babylon Clause and all that with the union negotiations. By the time I got back from that work, I'd lost some of the fingerprints of the story. I had to kind of re-find them again and didn't quite do that. The expository sequence at the end could have been done a lot better. And then the knife to the heart. Honest and true. If I were in your position, I'd skip this one and go right to Messages from Earth. But Brent, we are not going to skip this one. In fact, we're going to watch it right now. Right now? Right now. But Father Joe said skip it. Sometimes you don't listen to your parents. This, one of those times.

[14:41] Some of you have joined us for the first time and have no idea what we're talking about. What do you mean you're going to watch the episode right now? You're not just going to like pull out your notes and talk about what you already watched? No, we're not. We're going to bring up the episode right here. We're going to watch it together with you in real time. If you're watching us on YouTube, you're going to see the kind of compressed, cut up reaction. It's going to turn into a reaction video, essentially, where we're going to have conversation about what's going on. You'll see the episode along with us. We do post the full and unedited conversations, the not reaction reaction video to our Patreon page. And you can get to that by clicking the link down in the show notes or just typing into your little browser, patreon.com slash. Bad nerds. And if you guys are listening to us on an audio platform out there somewhere, it could be Apple Podcasts, it could be Spotify, Audible, Good Pods, Podbean, Podchaser, Podcast Addict, Pod fill in the blank. That's when we should launch, Jeff, is just Pod fill in the blank. We should. Yeah. I mean, that would hit. So, I mean, we'd overtake the entire podcasting industry. Rolls right off the tongue. Pod fill in the blank. P-F-B-T-F-T-B. TB. Yeah, that's what I said. You did. That's great. Perfect.

[15:56] Anyway, anyway, if you're listening to us on one of those audio podcasting platforms.

[16:02] You're going to hear the audio. And the thing for you is we're going to leave the audio in intact because Jeff and I are going to have conversations in the middle of the episode. We don't want you guys to forget about those. And if Jeff and I try to rehash those, those later, it's not going to be as good as the one that we had while we were actually, you know, in situ. So you guys are going to catch that. And you'll also catch the backside conversation where we try to suss out the messages. And Jeff is going to rank this one, I think. I think so. Yeah, Jeff ranks this one and puts it in our 100% completely accurate ranking. So we'll do all that sort of stuff just for you guys there on the audio podcasting platform. So Jeff, if you're ready. Accessing file. Dyson. Dyson for now. Please remind your passengers about customs procedures prior to debarkation. Roger that.

[16:52] Have a nice day. Dyson, that sucks. Was that a really bad Sean Connery impression? Very, very bad, yes. With a lot of this put onto it. Kudos on the Dyson joke. I picked it up. It was nice. It picks things up too. Like a bowling ball. Okay, tomorrow morning, Lieutenant J.G. David Corwin is promoted to full lieutenant. Yay! David Corwin! I miss this girl. She should have had a much bigger part over the course of this show. The bartender related? Babylon 5's quark, the superior quark, maybe? She doesn't have to be that involved in the show. You know, but more. Yeah.

[17:33] Hey, this leather strip of sugar here does not, like, you've got cloth and then just this stiff leather thing. That'd be very annoying. Amen to that. I like the look of it.

[17:46] That was a great edit. That was good. Wow. Don't worry, you'll be just fine. Maybe part of the union negotiations were to dig deeper into central casting. Deeper. Ow look at it digging into his back like that's a full-on like yeah i i wouldn't be i'd be screaming.

[18:09] Are they fully aware of how much pain it's going to take for this blending to occur you know to put it in stargate terms i think they are and i imagine as soon as they come in they flood the nervous system with uh you know dopamine and serotonin and everything like yeah this hurts and now you're fine they'd probably overcompensate to make sure that they feel okay you think the symbiote also feels pain going in or no i bet it does are they just digging in until they absorb and then i think that they dig in and then as soon as they like absorb they feel the pain not what's happening but like once they plug in they're like oh god that really hurt oosh let me like help this thing happen and so yeah yeah i totally agree over in the chat they are the willing host symbiotic they're sharing the experience whereas with the go old they just take over yeah i think these are totally the tokra just probably more effective than the tokra except with the trill you can't say troll because the the trill never take over the host i don't think so right they just kind of i don't understand inform went wrong i don't know security's coming they heard the stream that we have to go i mean to to that effect this is not a.

[19:14] With the – for anyone, their personality is made up of the sum of their past experiences. Like the symbiote and the trill blend. Well, the trill is the – well, wait. Yeah, right. I don't know. I think the trill – Is the trill the symbiote or is the trill the – That's a good question. I've always thought of the trill as being the people because the planet is called trill. Yeah. Regardless. The trillions. But when the – like the only thing that changes for that host is what changes because of these new past lives experiences, right? But the host is still the host. The host still lives their life. So I don't think that would be Trill versus Gold and Tok'ra where they literally can take over. Yeah. The only reason that the Tok'ra hosts get a chance is because the symbiote lets them. Yeah. That's the thing. The symbiote doesn't have to let them. Exactly. Right?

[20:09] Among the not-Gwa'uld species, whatever their actual species name is. This is part of their – the Tok'ra have a consensual relationship essentially with the symbiote and the host. Which I think is what we're – what we eventually find out about here. But the question is, is the host still aware? Are they fully informed? We can't just leave him. We don't have any other choice. We can't afford to be captured. Now that Corwin's been promoted, sooner or later he's going to end up getting in our business. You mean with Earth the President? We had a lot to say about this storyline. He's due the promotion. I don't begrudge him that. But he could be a problem, and I need to know where he stands. If he can help us, great. If you don't think he's up for it, then we have to keep him out of the loop. I suggest a private meeting. Just talk to him. No, this is a part of all this I really hate. Yeah, because remember, this is the date episode. The fake date, right? You and I ate this up. It was so fun. It's so much fun. And it didn't need to happen because you don't have a private meeting with a subordinate. Yeah, in your quarters. Over dinner to suss him out. You can take him out to dinner on the Zocalo. That's somewhat appropriate. Put some boundaries around it. In a public place. The gracious Duncan.

[21:13] Asleep by the gate you know what bothers me jeff what's that like what's going through my head right now jml himself said skip this episode it's the last episode that doesn't matter for the major arc of anything that's going on the fact that he writes this episode knowing it's a skippable episode that kind of bothers me a lot you know like what are you doing man yeah what i'm thinking right now is i would listen to marcus and duncan talk to each other for about three and a half hours. Yeah. And love it. Yeah. They sound great. They've got chemistry. Like I am into these two characters, but I got it. So, so part of our job as podcasters, Jeff is to, to kind of chronicle and Mark where we are in a moment, right? You know where I am in this moment right now? Where's that? I don't care. Really? I don't care about like the next 45 minutes. I don't care because here's the thing and it's worse since you told me what jms said yeah i get that and if i'm online and i'm back in the day and i'm reading this sort of stuff that changes how i watch this episode now you take me to a convention you get me talking about it with a bunch of my friends you get me ranking episodes and stuff this now commits the worst the worst thing you possibly could do yeah is you make me not care at least with avalon i can tell you why i hate it.

[22:34] Very obvious and clear reasons. This one is worse. I just don't care anymore. Not only because I – oh, cool concept. They just didn't take it anywhere. They never meant for it. The creator himself says, meh. Never meant for it to go. And it's not even like a, hey, I tried this idea. I thought something cool was going to happen and it just didn't work out. And sorry, that happens. No, just – I think it kind of was that though. Oh, yeah? Because his ultimate thing he said was, I was writing this script. I had great ideas for it, great vision. Then I got pulled off for this production issue, this labor dispute. That took over about a week and a half to get through. I came back to the script, and I kind of lost it, and I was on a deadline, and I had to keep going. So I think he intended to write a meaningful episode that wasn't part of the arc. I don't think – I think all of that was intentional, but I think he had a much more impactful vision for it. Yeah. I want to be clear.

[23:29] You guys don't need to tune us out. I'm chronicling where I am in this moment. I'm gonna have the second watch this is my second watch experience right now a few minutes into the episode i want to see if it can pull me back it because i i my memory really likes this episode so i think that's fair where i'm at right now is literally i'm looking at the characters and what happens with the characters and right now i am falling in love with marcus and duncan both like the actors specifically to come back yeah what is it what is this relationship that these two have established it's it's got to be i mean there's depth to this from immediately yeah This is not a new relationship. These two have history with each other.

[24:07] Oh, by the way, also, symbiotes that heal people. Sick guy that we care about. I know where this is going. Jacob Carter. Be fine. Spoiler alert.

[24:21] How much for this one? The same as the piece was yesterday and the day before that. Two credits. You're a thief. A high woman. The least you could do is wear a mask and ride a horse. See you tomorrow. And Marcus.

[24:37] And we expect fresh blood supplies by Friday. Now, we're still having a hard... I said I had one thing for during the episode. Okay. I want you to pay attention to the actors that are seated around the table in this scene. And then afterwards, I'm going to give you a little quiz. Okay. Time getting drossy blood for transfusion, so we're going to have to stick to the synthetics for now. Dr. Steinhoff, Dr. Lieberman in Med Lab 3 is having some trouble with the procuri. Now, you know their biology better than anyone down there. Maybe you could give them a hand. Good. Dr. Harrison. He said, yep, he's getting paid. What's our stats? We lost a Centauri patient in Med Lab 5. Chronic problems with bicarbial separation. There wasn't much we could do. Latest report from security showed the usual quota of injuries, fights, stabbings, nothing major. Good. Ring a bell for you? She's very similar to Tracy Scoggins. She is. And brings that up, but... Let me narrow it down for you. Yeah. Crusade. Is that Darina? It is. Is it really? Carrie Dobro, who played Darina in A Feel. Really? Yeah. Wow. I like her better as Darina, but whatever. Yeah. Anything else? Got a DOA last night. Male human, no ID. Does not look like her at all. No sign of injury or illness. Nothing. I can hear it. I can't see. I saw it there a little bit. Profile. Help him figure out what to put on the death certificate. All right. That's right there.

[25:56] It honestly kind of makes me want to go back and watch Crusade a little bit. Yeah, that show we didn't want to watch again because we know it. But it was a really good show. I did like that episode where Darina got recruited. She was trying to go into the Thieves Guild thing. And her and Gary Cole, whatever his name was, went down together. Look at that Widow's Peak. Right? This is from Ranger 1 on Minbar. Seems they're gathering, creating a border on the edge of Centauri's space. Would you say it's The Gathering? Oh, and that package you've been asking about, just left Mars. Should be here in about a week. What package is it, Jeff? On your next supply run, I want you to make a quick side trip. Isn't it eggs or something like that? And drop a long-range scanner and get out fast. And see if we can find out what's going on out there. What's her name?

[26:41] She's the one who escapes. Tells us about this shadow ship on Mars. Dr. Kirkish. Anyone else? Kirkish? I think it's Dr. Kirkish. That was the last one. Where's Samuel? My sources are used to having him as my liaison And they don't react well to change He said he had more important things to do When I first enlisted him he said there was nothing more important Than our work here I think I'll pay him a visit In fact this episode is doing a good job of showing us a day in the life of the rangers It's kind of cool Hi Samuel Marcus, Haven't seen you in a few days I've been busy That's not Samuel anymore I see you made some new friends Good I've been busy Is everything alright? Fine Why are your eyes glowing? just can't work with you anymore i have things to do now really what kind of things your voice has changed yes well i can see you're busy so i'll let you go if there's anything i can do i like how marcus is like well he's breaking up with me okay there's no point in having this conversation i'm just gonna leave with some dignity and start looking marcus is about to have a new buddy something's gone into him something's gotten into him.

[27:48] I like it i approve oh you think it's just gonna stay in that little cup like that, well the hell are you oh yeah i talked about this last time jeff if we go back and look at this this this really really got me all right dr franklin is operating on this guy he's cutting him open and stuff right he's got fresh blood on these gloves and he's touching this perfectly clean petri dish with these fresh freshly bloodied gloves not a damn thing is coming off on that petri dish right like guys come on now wow there's no smudges there's nothing their future gloves is the thing like it's they can take something on but they won't put it off.

[28:36] Oh duncan oh i see the bubbles oh some practical examination confirms that the biomass is 100 hundred percent genetically neutral biomass that just sounds gross what it's doing here I can't tell that's a little good exposition I've initiated the best thing is a doctor you're recording your log with him to the station tell the whole story was infested here Nia asks a pretty important question here okay he's in there doing an autopsy doing surgery shouldn't there be like a nurse an assistant someone they're helping him my answer Franklin is that good exactly I'm like this is Dr freaking Franklin we're talking about here do you know who we're talking about here come on Andrew has the real answer though, but we can afford another cast member. There's that also, none of his staff wants to get yelled at. That's a fair point too. We could. I don't know, meet in the mess hall for breakfast? Yes. You can't have a private conversation. That's a great idea. Dishes clattering and people talking. So why don't you come by my quarters later in the day? We can have a cup of coffee. But I get Ivanova's piece here. Like, this is not a conversation they can have out in the open. She's got to be able to feel him out.

[29:37] She's got to be able to, you know, suss out what's going on without everybody else around hearing, right? Yeah, but she's not going to, like, point blank asking the question. She's going to dance around it, right? And I'm sure I talked about this the first time, but like he reports to her. Yeah. How in God's name have they not been talking on a regular basis? Yeah. I talked to my devo daily when I was on the boat. Like that's just, it's part of what your devo division officer, my boss. Okay. Thank you. We can just talk about stuff outside work, you know, my devo in your head. Duh. Like, come on. I mean, you might have to whip it. Good. Whip it good. Okay, so I had a problem the first time around with what I perceived as an age difference between Corwin and Ivanova. Yeah.

[30:26] Ivanova just seems so much older to me. Or rather, Corwin seems so much younger than Ivanova. I was like that. When you've been around longer, you'll understand. If they were normal, they wouldn't be in down below. Wow. That is a little judgmental. One of the leading minds of the 14th century. Have we no workhouses? Have we no prisons? mr marley'd here like a word with you he's the fellow in the chains ignore the moans it's just gas don't you ever shut up not until i get what i want why do you think silent meditation would work better jms has said in the past that every word that comes out of a character's mouth is are his words so knowing what he said earlier about i'm sorry i'm sorry are jms's words or are the words of the character are jms's words.

[31:07] And knowing what he said earlier about Londo and Marcus have the same problem where they just won't shut up once he gets started. I have to believe what Garibaldi just said was JMS. Don't you ever shut up? Like, just stop. Not until I get what I want. I also love how Marcus just did not let Garibaldi go and just straight up called him out on like, wow, not okay. Ivanova's right. You are a pain in the air. All I'm asking is that you come with me and look into it. It'll take five minutes. You know, it's weird, Jeff. Look, I'm sorry, but until somebody does something out of line, it's not my business. Now, if your friends are acting a little weird in the 100% doctor, but it's not my jurisdiction. Whatever his name is, I forget his name. Can I quote you? Jason Garrett? No, what's his name? It's Jason Garrett. So Mr. Garibaldi suggested that you come see me? Yes. But I agree. Yeah. The way they stand, their posture. Their movement. The intention behind everything. Well, I'm sort of in the middle of something right now. And the lack thereof. We'll take more than an hour. Gary Doyle's part.

[32:07] Take the computer at least that long to finish the analysis i guess i could pop out for a bit poor guy he looks like a lost puppy did somebody chrysalis no one ever listens.

[32:20] Hey marcus andrew asks why are the lights out uh because of the horrible effects that they used and they turn the lights off to make it look great very smart use of the space yeah i gotta agree with andrew like none of this functionally makes sense why tear through a wall why put out the lights like yeah do they have to rip their shirts is that it's some kind of i mean these are these are lurkers for god's sake yeah right throws into the spinal column and takes control of the neural system they're not in a position to take over the place no authority yeah so marcus thinks he's in the tng episode conspiracy alona looking for a life classic lost soul you will remain here until we i understand you and i am being paid to speak people will come looking for us now you cooperate we can try to work this out if not i can't guarantee the safety of you or any of your people. And I cannot guarantee yours. So no one knows that anything's wrong. That would be essentially correct. Yes. Richard Biggs and Jason Carter's chemistry is through the roof. Like, I just... Right? I could watch so much Marcus in this episode. Tom, where the hell did those come from? Oh, these? I found them. Where? There.

[33:36] Come on. They're just lying there. Be better than that. Synthetic roses. Good ones. Whoever bought these must have paid a lot for him. Yes. You miss every swing you don't take there, Mr. Corwin. Spending that kind of money on high-priced synthetics must be real dope. Yes, I think so.

[33:53] Showy, excessive, not at all cost-effective. You know, at least Ivanova's, like, not dressed in sexy civilian clothes. I've always had a weakness for roses. You know, with her hair let down and all that sort of stuff. I definitely have to find out who's responsible. Hey, thank you, David. I do think that if I put myself in Corwin's position, her not being fully in uniform is sending some mixed messages.

[34:15] Also, I think it's the first time we ever heard him called David. Mm-hmm nia makes a really great point we're all given a lot of crap over avonava for doing this in her quarters but she points out the ambassadors all do stuff basically out of their quarters it also functions as their office yeah it's a good point like what is it about babylon 5 that the only person in the entire show i take that back to the only two people in the no wait three three people in the entire show that have offices are the captain the medical guy and the security guy no one else has an office it is ridiculous i said that's a good point i think i think the big difference though is when dylan goes and sets up an ambassadorial appointment with somebody she's not giving these like semi-coated like hey we should get to know each other things right and then and then showing up with like i'm only wearing part of my uniform right so, I've got a dead body up in Med Lab that tells me all I need to know. He was killed when one of these Vendrisi tried to merge with him. His health was poor. His blood tainted by strange chemicals.

[35:24] Others, not suited for the merging, may die. And our kind will die with them. Wish to save lives. I think this is so inconsistent with what we learn about the Vendrisi coming up. Oh, yeah? If they're just throwing these threats, they're getting really aggressive. And I don't think that's who they are. It costs too much to bring this stuff in. I had the hydroponic guy set aside a little space for me. But what do you do if there's a contradiction? If doing what's right for Earth and following your orders aren't the same thing? I don't think that's a decision I can make on my own. You can't just decide which orders to obey and which to ignore. We have to respect the chain of command or everything falls apart. If I'm Corwin right now, I don't know what the hell is going on. A minute ago I thought she wanted to go on a date and was hitting on me. Now she's asking me these. I feel like, this is me, David, I feel like this is a trap. And she's trying to catch me in something. She's either she's hazing me is like, hey, you're promoted I'm gonna mess with you or like she's a really bad boss who's trying to catch me in something, right? I think yeah, she's not she's not handling this well So if you saw someone trying to get other officers to speak out or even act against earth dome you'd report them Absolutely. Why is there anyone you want me to keep my eye on? No, no, it's just a hypothetical question with everything that's going on it's.

[36:36] It's good to know where we all stand with each other. Well, it's getting late. Thank you for stopping by, Lieutenant. I'm glad we had this time to talk. I don't feel like she's really sussed him out. No, at all. I don't feel like this conversation gives her any answer whatsoever that she's actually trying to look for. You can't make any decision based on it. He literally just gave you the textbook answer. Yeah. So he wouldn't get fired. Right. I think we take this. We take her interaction with the Lumati and throw in her interactions with the Drazi, the green-purple thing. And I think what I can, there's a story of Ivanova who leaves Babylon 5 and goes to captain one of the warlock destroyers, right? And then goes on to become, she's General Ivanova, right? When we meet her in Sleeping in the Light. Like there's a real story from her here figuring stuff out and being real sloppy and messy with it, which is, that's how you learn. You know, I mean, I'm not bemoaning her that, but like, I want that story. How did she hone that? how did she become who will be ranger one down the line i think it'd been really interesting.

[37:40] If this would have set up corwin actually being against the split from earth in a couple episodes did you remember there's that moment when uh sheridan turns around and he looks at everybody he's like if you have a problem with what just happened you're welcome to leave the bridge right now and there's this look between corwin and one of the other people yep and you're like oh he's not leaving, but he has a big F and problem with this. And then it turns out, no, he doesn't, but.

[38:09] Like, if this set up Corwin as a guy who had that kind of an issue, that would have been interesting. He leaves, you know, because Sheridan gives them the choice. If you don't like this, you can get out of here, right? Yeah. Corwin leaves. And then we're like, where's Corwin? Whatever. We get to end the game. And Sheridan's doing his stuff with the captains, but we get a confrontation between Ivanova and Corwin. Corwin's been off dutifully following the Clark regime or whatever. Yeah. And maybe that's what launches Ivanova's diplomacy. You know, success as a diplomat where she's just like, bro, you're wrong. You know, it even be really cool to watch is watch Corwin be the guy who almost similar to the way Zack does, but less stupid about it. Because that kind of walks into the whole thing really dumb. He gets in a way over his head real fast. Yeah, but if Corwin's like, no, like we're Earth, we're here, we're whatever, but we watch him be convinced over time of what is right and what is true versus he's just there. You know, whereas we watch Zach, who I don't know that he has to be more and more convinced because we just see him. He's constantly uneasy with what's happening.

[39:25] And you're like, dude, what do you do? Like, you already know. Like, what if Corden didn't know? But it's not that he's the spy. It's not that he's the wolf in sheep's clothing. He's just this guy who has to be convinced over the course of the show. And he's that guy. He's that proxy, right? That'd be interesting. I think we're getting some of that with Zack. We talked about that when he leaned into Garibaldi a couple episodes ago. And it's like he's hearing all this stuff that he doesn't agree with. But then Garibaldi's validating all of it.

[39:54] And he's pleading with them. I'm like, man, please don't make me think this. Give me something, and he doesn't. I'd almost see him and Corwin on a somewhat parallel path, but Zack figures it out. Corwin doesn't for a while, right? Like that stretches out longer. I think that could have been really good. I am looking forward to this conversation right here between Marcus and Franklin. Let's listen to it. I sense in her a key as yet unturned. And what exactly does that mean? I don't know, but I should think it would be fascinating to find out. Dude, just that gaze into there when he said that. Wasn't that funny? So great. I can't believe this. We're sitting here, guns pointed at our heads, walled up by alien parasites. Neither of us likely to get out of here alive. And you're thinking about making a play for Ivanova, is that right? Can you think of a better time? You're nuts, you know that? You are. And I've got to be just as nuts sitting here talking about it at a time like this. Marcus, you are so far from being her type that you're practically in different galaxies. Okay? Back up. Away from the door. That's sad. One of us is sick. You, outside. Now. Turns out he's exactly her type. Where are you taking it?

[41:02] If you have to take someone, take me! Save them! Why do they send their guns pointed at him? He's behind locked bars. The only way to save him is to take that thing out of his system. You will save them both. We have medical instruments. Use them. If you do not cooperate, you will be directly responsible for his death. No, I won't. Don't put that evil on me, Ricky Bobby. No, I won't. This is you all. One from three leaves one. Excuse me. Huh? There's something I think you should know. He's manifesting. If you really want your friend to survive, you're going to need more than the good doctor. You're going to need some of his instruments. You see that tube on the corner of the table there? That's a medical scanner. The Copeland J5000. Very advanced. I was bringing it to him. It's a Copeland J5K. Immediately. Why should you believe me? It could be a weapon or something. Check it out for yourself. Just look into the opening. Real close. That's it. Now, shake. Shake it twice. Have you ever seen Oklahoma? Oh, yeah. The little telescope. Yep.

[42:06] Okay, the choreography on that was not good. I'm sure the choreography was fine. It was not executed well there.

[42:14] I'm trying to contact security you stupid machine damn it siri just play the song, right yeah what is it we just picked up someone trying to use dr franklin's link did you get a fix on the location brown 84 recommend you get a team down there stat brown 84 bring me my brown pants nice on franklin's assessment of marcus and ivanova katerina makes a really good point he says i've known her for two years what does he know about her types who has she seen in the last two years that would give him any indication of who her what her type is was he aware of talia i don't i don't think so but here's the thing if he was then, that's what he's that could that could explain it maybe he did know i don't think he no i don't think i don't think he did though but yeah but like there's that moment when she comes into the lid and i was like i think i might have loved her yeah that comes up ceremonies light and dark but That was a – like the whole thing is that was a secret. That was a – I don't think anybody knew about Talia. I think you're right. And who else would she have been with? Wasn't there somebody that she was dating in one episode like that we just sort of heard about? Well, there was this guy who played Scorpio on General Hospital, the home guard guy. Yeah, but that was like the old boyfriend who came in, right? So – Yeah. I mean he would know about her and the Lumati guy.

[43:38] But he wasn't the part, her type either. Oh, the Lumati guy. Yeah. That's her type. Uh-huh, fair. Jesus, that was... That was harsh.

[43:56] I say let nature take its course. Marcus, please don't do this. Why not, Duncan? Look what they've done to you. If we save him, what kind of life is he going to have serving these creatures? Is this a stargate episode to deal with the lighting we weren't taken over.

[44:32] The dual talking trade-off is their version of the ghouled voice. Those whose lives are at an end through us they are born into a new life samuel i thought i'd given you a purpose to help me in our task ahead your purpose comes from the outside to fight someone else's battles ours comes from within why should we believe you you're controlling these people they'd say whatever you want do trust me marcus i trust the duncan i knew if i tell you Brent, that I want to bring you beauty and peace and purpose. After I told you that I'm going to kill you in a lot of different ways and be really aggressive with you, are you going to believe me? No. Yeah. It's just, he said this whole thing could have been better, but not only could this have been a lot better, this is not great what's happening, but it's entirely inconsistent with every single thing they did to this point. I was thinking this 45 seconds ago that everything that we've, this isn't one of those things where like, Hey, you set us up to think this, think this, think this. And then at the end you like, Oh, actually this is what was going on the whole time. That's literally what happens. But the, the switch doesn't jive at all with me. It like it, it does. I feel like it jived a lot more our first watch, but now I'm like, I don't think so. Yeah. Andrew's making the point over in the chat as well. It's just, yeah, this doesn't.

[45:58] Not the duncan that stands in front of me yeah we were real big that these guys had some memory something that was going to help in the big fight yeah you know yeah there's got to be a much less painful way to make this happen that sounds like a gould duncan a little bit there was no other way marcus don't you see marcus i was gonna live and die here never add up to any dancing i saw Oh, cities floating in the air, five miles higher than you have. Pandora? Is that what we're talking about? Our mission is to preserve these memories, all our experience, against the day when all life, all knowledge falls into a new dark age. To belabor my point, you've got all these memories. You've lived all these lives, all this stuff, and you don't know a better way to infiltrate a space station and grab a couple bodies to keep you like. I have a question. Okay. How many times on Babylon 5?

[46:53] And I'm really hoping it's more than just two. But how often have we seen character or a species? And this applies to both directions in the timeline. Where their whole thing is about observing and watching and preserving some knowledge for a time when all the knowledge gets wiped out. Or they're doing something to prevent knowledge from getting wiped out because of whatever. But basically we're hearing about this time when knowledge gets completely wiped out and we need to have this like repository yeah i will these guys uh-huh techno mages that's their whole thing right right they go into hiding so that the enemy doesn't get their their knowledge and all that sort of stuff right we need we need to preserve it okay there's something about the great machine where he's watching and observing what's going on and keeping record of everything that's happening.

[47:45] Um i don't remember if there's something specifically with lorian to that to that extent but i feel like this is something where we have seen multiple species talk about this, idea of preserving something for when this coming time is that everything goes out so it's really important that i do what i do or something of that nature i it's kind of am i wrong no i don't think you're wrong at all and i think none of them show up to help with any story was i mean.

[48:18] Maybe maybe if you look at uh what is it deconstruction of a falling star or falling stars right when you when you go forward into the future and we've hit back into like a new dark age or something like that and there's there needs to be this preservation to bring society back, maybe that's the point which we could talk about this but why do we is this just a thing that jms really likes to do and so he does this a handful of times like i i don't know yeah i feel like we're catching more than we really probably ought to katarina says the rangers do it later too in the finale of season four right and the books which is what i'm talking about yeah construction every world will look back to learn what went before and they will turn to us and we will be there keepers of the past the present and the future just take my word for it i'm never going to prove it but just take my word for it we're going to be there when it's time before i go along with this i want complete and total verification i want to go over every inch of your biology i want complete statements by everyone involved and no more volunteers without my approval and supervision otherwise i'll have security take you in and remove the vendrezi by force is that clear i don't know that you can remove them by force well agreed a lot of death and blood. The good news is that blood doesn't spread anywhere. Yeah, I'm fine. I'm in Brown 87. I need a medevac team in here. It's future blood.

[49:40] Space blood. So ultimately this episode comes up with two conclusions that are not supported by anything we saw in the episode. When we were joined, I saw things out there. Incredible things. What a profound sacrifice Duncan made. Really see them. Just once before I died. Be special one more time. I wish there was something I could do. He's a truly incredible person. I'm sorry. I'll come back. Becky in the chat preaching gospel. I love Duncan so much. I wish this episode deserved him. I mean, put Duncan and brother Theo together. Oh my God. Add them to the Vera Lanier sidekick show that we have, spinoff that we have. Man. ...out their story and so far everything seems to fit. Yeah, but if they have all this knowledge, why keep it a secret? Information is power and i think that he would definitely appreciate a second chance with you susan right playing wingman that's it he must have sent them him what sent what i'll be back this is funny it is so great love the snare drum coming up this is so funny.

[50:49] This is the moment you remember the snare drum did you watch this episode before no this scene is baked into my memory why thank you i will why why is she why i don't understand and he's just like great okay awesome she must love me i love everything about that scene it's perfect this is such a rube dude oh god i love it you know who marcus is you know you know why i cringe at marcus so much why because it's like looking into a mirror it really is like i get marcus i get marcus so much because i are he right right oh my word.

[51:26] Oh brent exogenesis we just watched it any uh any big things you want to touch on that we didn't during the episode everything came out of the episode i frankly i'm still in this spot of like you know what i really enjoy this episode it's a good episode i don't care but it's a good episode i want to care i want to have more i i i want i want i want and i just don't like because of what He said – and JMS's words have such power within this fandom and in this community. As they should. He is literally the great maker, right? Like as they should. But when you do something – man, groupthink in this stuff and I'm falling victim to it right now in front of your eyes, folks. I really – Real time. Because it just is. But I really like this episode. It's a good episode. This is a don't skip on the rewatch type of an episode outside of, yeah, unless you're just going for the eight episode key arc stuff. Here's the thing. We're like literally next week, we're full speed ahead. Like here we go. Yeah. Right? You need that breather.

[52:33] Yeah. Again, I mean, here I'm going to be an old man, but it's like, you know, you need the episodes to bring you up and let you breathe and do this. You need an 11 song album so that there's a thing that like there really is an emotional journey that you have to prep yourself this episode has a place in the pace and tenor of the third season i think i and i got that place for you jeff oh you do yes we're going to explore something you talked about before watching the episode okay how much does this episode impact your appreciation and fandom and love for Marcus. The reason I will never skip this episode is because everything I love about Marcus starts right here. It does. Everything. It does. And before we go off onto the big, great adventures and Marcus is one of our key players in the whole thing.

[53:25] You're right. We're seven episodes in and we've had three minutes of screen time with this guy. We don't know him. We get to know Marcus here. Like we really get to – we get to see him joking around. We get to see him having relationships with people. We get to see him being a complete and total rube with girls. We get to see his fighting prowess. Like we get to see all this stuff about Marcus that really makes us get to know and, and care and quite frankly, care about him. That's where this episode really shines. The whole thing about the bugs and all that's just, that's, that's, that's window dressing the meat of this episode. It's not even Marcus and Steven. It's just Marcus. It's, it's really just Marcus. The Corwin thing is cute. Corwin thing is cute and it provides a cool ha ha at the very end. Right. But outside of that, Jeff, you're right. This is the episode where we love Marcus. I think we talked about in Matters, no, Convictions in Day in the Strife that J.M.S. had a sci-fi thing. Like he had a thing he wanted to make happen and get across, a message, a piece or whatever. But he needed some story trope to hang it on. And the Vendreezy are that in this episode. Jason Carter plays Marcus elevated every actor he worked with in this episode. He had incredible chemistry with Duncan, with Franklin, and.

[54:50] You said get Brother Theo and Duncan together for a thing. Throw Marcus in there. Like, that's the podcast I want to subscribe to. Are those three, even just pair them off. All three, pair off, you know, Brother Theo and Marcus.

[55:05] I think what J.M. has said about him that I shared at the beginning of the episode, yeah, he can do it all. And it is just an incredible, incredible addition to this show. And yeah, I remembered so much of him. I'm like, just, I mean, I remember this episode so in so much detail and why, why Marcus? That's why. And that's my message. Did you get any other messages out of this one? No. Yeah. I wasn't looking though, to be frank with you. I was enjoying the episode. I was trying to make myself care, but I really enjoyed Marcus. And I, you know what? I enjoyed the Franklin stuff. Totally. Franklin was top notch in this episode and he had some places where he could have gone total a hole, you know, but he wasn't, he, he was a good doctor. He was a good officer. He did the stuff he needed to do. Franklin was really good in this episode.

[55:59] I loved Sheridan kind of pushing some stuff on off onto Ivanova and in Bruce Boxleitner, like, I almost feel like this is the first time we really heard that gravel in his voice, that we know is John Sheridan, like come sleeping in light. Like he's really got that. As as he's talking he's just just good stuff he's got good gravel toss uh i see what you did there and duncan we got duncan in this episode i like can we please have more of him you know what you know what would be neat all right brother here here put this trio on screen brother theo duncan and grail hunter dude oh yeah david werner oh man and just have him tell stories about them galavant in the universe yeah and oh oh oh and and oh what's his name what's his name uh from crusade techno mage from crusade galen yeah galen put galen in that group too right yeah dude galen was a cool character this is the podcast brand like this we need to put these together get these guys in character revive some of them you know it's just like put these four on a panel or these three on a panel r.i.p to david werner and probably brother yeah whatever his name was i forget his And Duncan. He died in 2015.

[57:14] All three of these actors, yeah. So we get the Ouija board and we summon their spirits. And we put them on stage, we give them microphones, and away we go. I think it's totally reasonable. Just make sure we have a wedge monitor so they can hear themselves. Yeah. I do have a thought on messages, actually. Okay. And it's just – I said it at the very end, but Duncan –, it made such a tremendous sacrifice and i think like and i don't know if this is a message so much it's just an observation i'm sorry stop stop stop stop stop stop let's be really clear what you're talking about here what is the sacrifice you're talking about he let the vendry he.

[57:48] Decoupled with his uh with his symbiote which meant no longer long life and health and healing and all the visions and memories and knowledge okay he that's the sacrifice we're talking about He, he, he was at the top of Mount Olympus, right? He was there and the Vendreezy could have been like, bro, let me leave. You can tell him then he'll understand. And like, there's, there's a, there's a story of Duncan being like, no, I love this. This is everything I've ever wanted. I can't give this up, but he did give it up. And it's that thing where he saw the bigger value. If I go, I'll be okay for a little while longer. You know, I'll have some benefits from this, but the Vendreezy as a whole will be able to continue. And that's really important for when, you know, the shadows attack and the Earth Civil War happens and all the really big things that happen that the Vendreezy are really key in making a difference in. So it's, oh, never mind. But still, I just think it's that the idea of... Seeing there's something bigger than you and taking action to help that thing happen and exist. I like it. Katerina says there has to be some message about preserving the knowledge. There would be if they did anything with it. What they are, here's the message actually. Don't preserve knowledge for the sake of preserving knowledge. That's just as, that's just as bad as letting the knowledge die out. Explain. Hey, I'm preserving this knowledge forever and no one except me will ever have access to it. I don't think that's what necessarily that means.

[59:17] But what you're talking about, though, Jeff, is what the soul hunters do. Yeah. Yeah. And we saw that. I'm going to go preserve this soul, but they're going to be here just for me in my own personal collection. They're not here for the benefit of the galaxy or all people kind. And the soul hunters suck. Thus do the Vendreezy. Now, if they showed up and did something with what they have, I wouldn't feel that way. Yeah. But I am anti-Vendreezy at this point. Knowledge hoarders. Can I just say how thankful I am for archivist type people? You know, people – these are people that maintain knowledge, right? And what do we know from history, Jeff, as a whole? A lot.

[59:52] Well, what happens when the libraries of Alexandria burned down? Oh, yeah. We lost so much knowledge. The world plunged into a dark age, right? And when did we start coming back out of it? When they found scrolls hidden behind walls in Arabic monasteries, right? When the printing press was invented and now the printed word could start spreading faster than ever before, right? When information was able to be transmitted, okay, fast forward, we get things like, I don't know, radio, telephones, telegraphs, television.

[1:00:25] Information spreads faster and look what happened to the world. The internet comes in. Thank God Al Gore was around. The internet comes in and look, you know, different, different for the worst. Now it's a different kind of dark age, but yeah. And, and listen, I know this is a hot button topic, but what are we witnessing the precipice of right now is the introduction of AI. Right. And again, I know there's a lot of people that are wholeheartedly against AI in all forms. And I'm not here to, I'm not here to, to, to just, it's happening regardless to quell that it, but it, yeah, observably it is happening here in history. And I predict, I think that the advent of AI, if it doesn't blow up our planet will be just as impactful as the introduction of the internet, just as, as impactful as the introduction of telecommunications, I should say yeah just as impactful as the printing press this this will be the next thing we're watching it happen right now the key thing with those to to bring your point back around yeah is that's all knowledge that was shared uh knowledge that is that is hoarded that is kept for your your own whatever does nothing for anyone.

[1:01:38] Yeah. You got to come back around with it. The whole point is to be able to disseminate that information and keep society moving, which is what the aliens kind of basically state their goal, right? Like we are the living witness. We are the living history. Okay. This isn't a Star Trek podcast, but let's talk about the episode In the Light, right? They come across a probe. Huh? They come across a probe that is a preservation of a society, and it all gets downloaded into Picard's brain. And he goes and lives and now the society is able to sort of live on at least in the memory of certain individuals who who knows how many people that this probe has done this to. Yeah. Right. How many people have played the game where you go live this other guy's life for 40 years? And why aren't they getting together? Like, why isn't there a club?

[1:02:21] Right. Does everybody play the same character or like does somebody jump into the into the governor character? Does somebody jump into that character over there? Like everyone's actually living a fantasy at the same time. Everyone's a player character. Oh, it's like, it's like one giant world of Warcraft connects them all together. Yeah. Yeah. But preserving, uh, preserving knowledge for the sake of preserving knowledge. Yeah. That's, that's for the sake of hoarding knowledge, certainly is not great. Knowledge should be preserved to preserve society and improve society. Right. And to your point, that's what archivists do. Let's save it and determine how we share it so that people can use it. I actually employ a team of 10 archivists, nerds with like library sciences degrees and things that like, I'm just like, how in God's name did you study this for so like, this is so boring. But thank god you exist and that you studied it the work you do is so critical and important two organizations that if you ever get a chance to go through their archives you should you and you're never going to get a chance to do it you will not get a chance to but if you ever do by chance oh my god take them up on it one the nfl yeah if you oh my dude they have every moment of every game mostly from every practice everything they they've got it all and the archival system of what they have with the NFL is top-notch. But the other one? The Vatican? No.

[1:03:49] Difference between you and me. You're thinking the Vatican. I was thinking Disney.

[1:03:55] The Disney archives. I have downstairs in my room right now, several of the actual hand-painted cells that they used from the He-Man and She-Ra cartoons. I didn't know you had those. I have some from Scooby-Doo's. I have some from Thundercats. I have like, I have some from Star Trek. The actual cells that they used. Okay. You will never get your hands on one of those. If you ever see a piece of art, that's like, Hey, here's a cell from this movie. That is a replica. That is not one that was photographed for the film because all of those are at Disney archives.

[1:04:34] Disney has everything locked away in an environmentally controlled space just for preservation sake. Why? I don't know. Cause you never know, but I tell you what, But if Star Trek or Babylon five or any of these places archived their stuff, the way Disney archives, it wouldn't be such a big deal to go to the HD remaster of their shows. It'd have it. It'd be super simple. Yeah. Anyway, those are all messages and different things like that. Where is that going to go? Jeff, I have a very, very important question for you. And that's one I am genuinely very curious about. Okay. I want to know where this episode, given all of the things that we've talked about of like, it doesn't matter. It does. It's a good episode, but it really doesn't, you know, JMS himself said, yeah, skip it. All that sort of stuff. Given all of that, what I'm really curious is where does this episode fall in the ranking? The 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of season three. Got to take JMS's words off the table and just take this episode for what it's worth. We've got five episodes on the docket. We've got six, actually, I should say. We've got six. I'll just say all six of them. I'll start at the bottom.

[1:05:50] Conventions? No. Convictions, which is episode six. Five is matters of honor. Four, day in the strife. Three, voices of authority. Two, passing through Gethsemane. And one, dust to dust, our episode from last week. Jeff, where does this episode, Exogenesis, fall in this ranking? Coming into this record, I was like, this is going to be number seven on the season so far. I know what JMS said about it. I know what it means in the canon of everything. But this episode had so much. We just talked about it all. Marcus is an overarching piece. The Corwin story, Duncan, Dr. Franklin, those, I'll call them, the filler episode benefits of this episode were huge. And just on the strength alone of that moment when Ivanova marches down and slams the roses in front of Marcus, on that strength alone, this is going to be the number six episode on the season so far above Convictions.

[1:06:50] Lucy, explain yourself. If you want to talk about another episode that has nothing to do with the overall of the story and just kind of has a sci-fi thing that, frankly, we weren't that impressed with. To move some things forward. It's convictions. And Exogenesis did it better. Yeah, did it better. I'll give you that. And the character development that comes out of Exogenesis stretches to the very end of the fourth season. And that gut punch of marcus's sacrifice matters because of what we saw in this episode all right all right that's way lower than i thought you were going to place it oh yeah i'm not i'm not nuts.

[1:07:30] It uh well for uh for posterity's sake it was well do you want to guess where it landed in our first time ranking 17 oh man 18 if this was the price is right you might have won dude that's nice one dollar you know what 17 was convictions oh why literally just did a little swap wow okay all right well we'll see where this one the world we'll see where this one lands for sure jeff brent that's gonna do it for exogenesis i'm kind of disappointed but i know i'm not i'm not though you want to know why because next week's episode messages from earth here we go jeff here we go how many people now we've had lots of people asking us so let's let's be very clear about this yes are we going to do messages from earth point of no return and severed dreams severed dreams together as one thing because it's it really is a trilogy are we going to bottle them up and do them as one episode jeff let me ask that question a slightly different way are you interested in recording a 10-hour podcast are you interested in listening to a 10-hour podcast probably not i don't know the way some people listen true there's there are those out there and good for you good for you that's great i don't know that our host council chambers are all unanimously saying yes this would literally be me during the and it's.

[1:08:52] What all do we got to talk about hey honestly if we tried to do it like that we would short change these episodes i think so beyond what is anywhere near fair we're we might short change these episodes just doing one episode on each one right each one is a whole oh my gosh it could be multiple episodes of one episode yeah it it'd be a thing nia says yes but not tonight, dylan they're off they're offering to send us caffeine send us drugs to do this, uh well here's the thing we'll not be doing we can do them individually i'll cut them together as one sure if that's what you want to do i don't super cut they can be a patreon exclusive hey if you want to watch them all as one thing dude put it hey you know what put it put them out there like right next to the lord of the rings trilogies the extended versions and we might get about the same amount of screen time. We should, we should never, I'm going to, I'm not going to finish my thought.

[1:09:51] Oh, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. Do you remember what your prediction about messages from earth was? This was before we knew what messages from earth would be. We had no idea what we were walking into when we watched this thing. So I felt that this was going to be the president Clark investigation kind of coming to a head psych or night watch ministry of peace, full swing, chicky Clark, all of it coming together, ministry of peace, establishing their base on Babylon five. What did you predict? Well, speaking of Chicky, which by the way, we got to, we got to, we got to tell that story here in a minute.

[1:10:26] Per Chicky, I said Sheridan was going to get recalled to earth, which is what she said would happen when she was around. Right. But I made a major prediction on this one. I said, this is the beginning of the Babylon five break away from earth. Oh yeah. Yeah, nailed it. I did. You nailed it. Not minus the Sheridan thing. Nailed it. You got the big one. You got the big one. Well done. I did. Well done. Well done.

[1:10:53] This is Peak Babylon 5 we're heading into for the next three weeks. You don't want to miss any of these episodes, so make sure you're subscribed wherever you're watching us or listening to us. Like, subscribe, rate, review. Do all of those things. It's great. To remind you that we brought them up quite a bit in this conversation, but our Council Chambers tier Patreon subscribers are invited to our recordings live with us. We also hang out at least once a month online. It's a good time. Sometimes we hang out in person with some of them also, which is pretty great. We have a very rich Patreon community, and if you were to join it, you would only enrich it, and you would have an incredible time and meet some awesome people. You can click the link in our show notes for patreon.com slash badnerds to access that. If that's not your cup of tea at this time, that's awesome and totally understandable, but you still have that drive to help out. You can do that by sharing this show. Just click that share button, send it off to the first three contacts that come up when you hit share, and be like, check this out. This is going to be incredible. We've got three weeks of absolute fire episodes coming up. So with that, Brent, thank you for hanging out with me. Hey, Jeff. Yeah, what's up? Did you remember an infection, like the little bug thing that went up? Hey, hold on. These bugs here, what? This time it's going to happen. You brought it up just a minute ago. There's the chicky story.

[1:12:18] But the bugs from here and the bugs and infection they looked okay um.

[1:12:26] It's gonna take.