Interludes and Examinations | For the Second Time

[0:44] The year is 2026. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And my name's Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, because Babylon 5 is a show that you get to watch for the first time, twice. That's right. That's right. But you know, we're doing this time around though, Jeff, what's basically the same thing we did last time, which is we're looking for messages. It's kind of the thing we do. It's sort of our shtick. We're looking for messages. We're looking for ones we didn't see the first time, maybe ones we forgot about, or maybe ones we just want to double down on the types of messages. We're looking for the good sci-fi type stuff, things that hold up a mirror to society, things that give us hope that things can be better in the future, or maybe they just tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, That being said, Jeff and I have been through this entire series for the first time for ourselves.

[1:48] So what that means is from this point forward, anything from any point in the timeline, any point in the franchise, whether it's extra canonical in universe, out of universe, whatever, it's all for a game for Jeff and I to talk about. So if you have not seen this incredible series for the first time for yourself, please stop this video, stop this podcast, stop this, whatever it is you're joining us on and go back to our first time. That is completely spoiler-free because this is your spoiler warning. Everything is fair game for us from this point forward. There's going to be a lot of spoilers coming in this one. Kind of a big deal episode. It's Interludes and Examinations. We played a game the first time around where we'd guess what the next show was going to be about based on the title alone. Do you remember what you predicted for this episode? I did. I had a lot of words, but the gist of it was war is here. And so it's time for everybody to get their crap together everybody seems to be dealing with stuff like franklin's dealing with the stem addiction talia's or not avanova's still dealing with some of the talia fallout garibaldi's got his stuff to lend sheridan everybody seems has their stuff they got to get it all under they got to get it wrapped up because war is here it's time it's go time it's go time and that's what i said this episode would be about is them getting their stuff together how about you jeff pretty much the same thing i was like we're gonna get the follow-ups from ceremonies in light and dark, but the specific, I got way specific on this one and the big one that I, that's where predictions go to die, my friend. I know.

[3:14] Although on this one, it worked out pretty great. I said, Dr. Franklin is going to open up to Garibaldi about his stim addiction. So uh but i figured this is just going to be like getting everybody to kind of a clean point we can really focus on the war moving forward i just want to reiterate something about this about the stem addiction all right i know franklin came in the other day and said i think i've got a problem i know we've seen him using his stems and i know he has the episode walkabout coming up right but just for the record and i know we've said it on a couple other shows but just at the outset here on my second watch i don't feel like franklin's stem addiction is as big of a deal as i did feel the first time around i feel the same the first time around it felt like it overshadowed everything this time around it feels like it's barely a blip on my radar so it was like two episodes it became a big deal for like parts of it right but the first time around it felt huge yeah it felt like it literally overshadowed everything so hey jeff yeah hey jeff you know something that also kind of looms over everything, at least as far as this show is concerned? What's that? It's what we said last time. Yeah, absolutely. Where we were last time. Why don't we take a moment and remind ourselves and the folks watching, the folks listening, exactly what you and I said about this show, about this episode last time. All right, let's do it. Previously on Babylon 5 for the first time.

[4:40] I don't know how many questions have been answered but i do have several new questions yeah why do they still need londo what is the deal with morden what is it about sheridan specifically is kosh really dead we're gonna get the redemption of londo malari right londo went to a darker place than we've ever seen him before yeah when londo's stopping the dr hobbs you know like i broke with him Londo is going to become both a literal and figurative shadow emperor like that's Morden's whole thing is we need him because we can make him emperor and he'll do anything we need him to do.

[5:20] Is that what's going to happen with Londo? Like he's taken over by a shadow. Is Jakar going to be able to commune somehow with the real Londo? Maybe they have some sort of connection because of the dust. What you're saying then is Jakar killing Londo is more like a mercy killing. Exactly. And then Veer is going to walk in and discover Londo's dead body and like steal his crown or something. And Garibaldi goes full on intervention in him. But you don't think he's leaving the show? I think he's headed down below. I don't think Franklin's done at all. I think we have more fall of him. When Sheridan realized he needed to convince the worlds, I was sitting there, I was like, Garibaldi just told you how to do it. You guys just had this with Vester. Grab a telepath, put him on a ship, go find a shadow ship, kill the ship, job done. Actually, I'm not with you on Kosh. I can't believe he's dead. My guess is that it's one of those things where like, you may strike me down, but I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. I will be incredibly disappointed if Kosh comes back in the next episode or two or three or four. Kosh didn't know how to respond. And I felt like when he did respond, it sounded a whole lot like a parent or a teacher talking to a child. So we had Sinclair who had the Minbari soul. And we're like, oh, of course, Sheridan's got a Minbari soul. What if he doesn't? What if he has a Borlawn in him? I think that might be the quality that Sheridan has that they need. That willingness to give it all up.

[6:47] So does this show end with Sheridan sacrificing himself? People out there are either freaking out over everything we've just said, or they're like, would you guys shut up and move on? And now the conclusion. Wow. Wow. My gosh. So first off, there's some chatter in the council chambers chat. If for those of you that don't know our council chambers, tier subscribers get invited to our recordings, but I was wearing a suit and tie because I was dressed for the funeral. It was the funeral. Yeah. The funeral of Kosh. meanwhile i'm in a t-shirt and a backwards ball cap just slunched down whatever yeah we had some good stuff in that one dude londo's gonna be taken over by a shadow and that's what we see of the coughing londo and all that stuff going forward and so jakar is killing him as a is a mercy killing right oh that would have recolored everything but you didn't think kosh was dead I didn't.

[7:40] Wow. I was all for it. There's a piece of Kosh in all of us. I was going to say, a bit of Kosh survived, and that's kind of the point, right? Do you remember, though? This was kind of my favorite memory that triggered while we were watching all of that. On our Discord, you guys remember this, Council Chambers and everybody else out there? On our Discord, everybody changed their username or their screen name to Kosh. Yes. Because we all are Kosh. And they didn't tell us that that's what they were doing. They just did it. And like, we just looked up one day and we're like, how many cautions are there? Right. What's happening here? I just, we have to thank, of course, uh, Dylan, our real life on earth, Dylan for putting that together. She's been putting those together and we'll continue to. So huge. Thank you to you, Dylan. Cause it is a fun way to be able to experience our first time. There it is. Uh, that's a little bit from our first time though, Jeff, you scoured the internet. You looked up what JMS himself had to say, forget us. let's go to the the horse's mouth what did he have to say about this episode.

[8:41] There are miles and miles of comments on this one. There's so much. And so I distilled it down to a very small handful that I'll bring up here to the start. Then I have a couple that will hit during the episode itself. He said that the story, as he was writing, the story took a turn that even I didn't see coming. And I loved it. After Kosh's death, which he told me needed to happen, no one would talk to me for a few days. So I know I did the right thing. Wow. Yeah. Jeff, I don't know if you've ever experimented with fictional writing. A little bit. Where you're doing like. Pro like this sort of narrative prose it's a real thing that the characters sort of take over and tell you what's happening and all you're doing is just recording it yeah like that's a real thing the idea that he did not plan for the kosh death yeah oh which makes me wonder the whole because this is what triggers the vorlon to go like ape crazy you know what i mean and i wonder if that That was even a part of the actual idea for what he was headed towards. It doesn't sound like maybe it was, but I'm kind of glad to know that it wasn't because I've never loved the Vorlon going crazy.

[9:59] They've been super steady all of this time, and then all of a sudden they just fall off a cliff, and that's when everything kind of goes to – but for his story and what he told, I love it. It's great. So, yeah, interesting. We've had a theory, a question, something like that for a very long time, and he's sort of, I don't want to say answers it, but touches on it here. He's asked about Kosh's age, and he says, I'll put it to you this way. Kosh was old enough to have a first-hand familiarity with Valen. Vorlons. Vorlons? Vorlons. And not down to new Vorlons. The Klingons and the Verlons.

[10:37] Vorlons live a really long time. So we've been wondering if like when Sinclair showed up as Valen and there's the two, if Kosh had gone back with him, this tells me that either, yes, he was one of those, or he was a little, little kid Vorlon running around at the time. And maybe ran into him. I think, I think he would have to be a little kid Vorlon who was running around at the time and did not go back with him. One, because Kosh was already dead. Like we haven't hit war without end. So Kosh is dead, like before Sinclair goes back, Kosh is now dead, right? Or whatever he is alive in Sinclair or Sheridan's body, whatever.

[11:13] But two, if he were to go back and he were to live another thousand years to get back to this point, he would be cyclical at that point and he would have no beginning. Right. So the idea that Sinclair goes back without him but goes and finds Kosh and Kosh 2.0 and then grabs them and goes to Mimbar with the station, that makes a lot more sense to me anyway. Totally. Well, hey, what do you say we watch this bad boy? Yeah, let's do it. For those of you joining us for the first time, welcome. We're super happy you're here. Every episode is someone's first, and we are overjoyed that you chose this one. What's about to happen is Brent and I are going to watch the episode right now. We're going to bring it up. We're going to watch it. You're going to watch it with us over on YouTube. This will get edited and cut up into one of those reaction style videos. We post the full and unedited versions over on our Patreon page if you want to see that. And that's at patreon.com slash Patreon.

[12:08] Bad nerds. And if you guys are listening to us on an audio podcasting app, an audio platform of any sort, you're going to hear that reaction. And we're going to leave that in because Jeff and I are sure to have conversations in the middle of that. And we're not going to rehash them on the other side. That would be boring. And we want you guys to know what's going on as far as that goes as well. So you'll hear that reaction. But don't worry. We will actually still have the full discussion on the other side of that where we'll share our thoughts. We'll talk about messages. We'll rank it, all that sort of stuff. So, Jeff, let's watch this episode. Let's do it. accessing file 10 days ago for the first time the shadows have been attacking openly so far they've been hitting targets close to the rim we heard that at the end of last episode the shadows are attacking openly now right so we're a week and a half up from last week seemed totally random, almost senseless if we thought it was nuts around here before this has only made things worse you know it might be the video that we're watching or it could be a filter of how they actually did it, everything looks a little bit more gray-scalish, black-and-white-ish. The colors don't look as vibrant as they normally do. Yeah, and just a darker overall tone. Yeah. Is that Morton? It is, and there's a very bright light on him compared to everyone else. Yeah. Is this guy a security guard? He is. Paying in diamonds? That's what it looks like. You know, that was a very clandestine... Everyone's been handling the stress pretty well. Seems like just one of those little drug passes could have solved that. Sooner or later, something's got.

[13:37] I remember the first time around I thought I saw that and I was like I nailed my prediction when the Vorlon goes to ground I worry what's going through is, it's mind I can't even guess and Londo that was a cool transition you never know which way he'll jump next.

[13:54] Come Londo you wanted to see me alright that's fine bring in the waste a little and we'll be done, I just want to point out what an incredible open that was yeah awesome voiceover recapped everything if you just showed up you've got a pretty decent idea what's going on right now sure you just don't know who anybody is but that's okay yeah exactly figure that out good yeah i want you to rent a suite for me it'll cost oh yeah nothing is too good for her her her who adira after all this time finally coming back to me you know what's amazing is We haven't seen her in two and a half seasons. She was in one episode way back at the beginning of the show. And she, her spirit has loomed over there. He went and got his money back.

[14:44] It's so. What did he get off of him? Was it access card or something? An Identicard, probably. All right, Jeff. Yeah. You got the feeling right now that like, I mean, this is that tonal shift that we, JMS, talked about in Ceremonies of Light and Dark. Like, this is it crystal clear. It's amazing how much Adira looms over this whole show when you think about it. Yeah. Like, how much most of what Londo does is kind of because of her. Maybe not most, but like, I'll tell you this, anything good that Londo does really is because of her. Morden paid off a security guy to get an Identic card. We're assuming that's what it is, or do we know that that's what that is? I'd bet on it. I'd bet a lot of diamonds that it was an Identic card. And then they turned around and like, let him walk away and then came back and shanked him later and got their diamonds back. Yeah.

[15:34] That's, do they care that much about diamonds? I think it's just the principle of the whole thing. You know, Ben says that this is the episode that really marks the turn into serialized storytelling more than any other. The technology is too far advanced beyond our own. I mean, it really goes from here all the way to episode six of season four. Yeah. All right. If you want to put a blink on that, but it could be even more. So this shot, JMS had a comment. He says that the background, the depiction of Brikiri space was taken right from a Hubble deep space shot. Cool. We use them a lot as they're provided by the folks who keep track of it all and keep it all running. They willingly send images over to him because they dig the show. Too far advanced beyond our own. Colin points out last time we were 50-50 on whether they were diamonds or crack rocks. We can't defend ourselves against this new enemy without help. Is there anything... Ambassador Shiloh, there are four other worlds in your area that could help the Burkiri, but they said they would only consider it if your people got involved. He's trying to broker alliances already? Yeah. No. It's the birth of the Interstellar Alliance. That's what he's got to now turn around and make. Why not? We are not attacked yet. May not be attacked. Oh, I remember this. If we join Burkiri, we are noticed. We invite people.

[16:49] They are going to come for you sooner or later. Right. When they came... You do not know that. What they do not see, they may not attack. The enemy is powerful. When they came for the Narn, I said nothing. When they came for the Brickiri, I said nothing. If not, we will stay quiet. And there was no one left. Do you have equal power? You know, the thing is, I kind of get what they're saying.

[17:13] You shouldn't have brought him to me for... It's easy for us to sit back and say, hey, you should take a galactic view of this. This impacts everybody. And I even think when we watched this the first time, we probably had that exact same general feeling. Like, come on, help each other out. But you're right. If someone's attacking Canada, and I'm the United States, and I'm like, hey, they're not attacking us. Maybe we just lay in the cut here and let this whole thing blow over and figure it out from there. That is part of the problem with an Earth-first mentality.

[17:43] I'm going to keep this in-universe here. Draw whatever y'all want. But that's the problem with an earth-first mentality is you lose the global or the – I'm sorry, the galactic viewpoint of things. The idea that you're not just alone. Like, yeah, you've got to take care of your own – like in our neighborhoods, you've got to care for your family first, right? You've got to take care of your house. But at the same time, you have an obligation to the rest of your neighborhood, to your community. Where if stuff's going down in your community, you've got to – there's places where – there's times to step up and times to not. And the question is, is which one's which? Yeah, and I think that's an evolutionary change in mindset. When just when you think about for a long time, these races didn't even know the other ones existed. So, I mean, really, when you think about the galactic stage, it's fairly in its younger stages. And so they haven't gotten to that point. They have manifest destiny. They have isolationism. They don't have galacticism yet.

[18:45] And that's what Sheridan starts here working towards. Well i think what we're seeing is the monroe doctrine not only doesn't work on earth it also doesn't work in space exactly prepare to ventilate lung number three you do that you disrupt this time metabolism this is my facility dr hobbs and i don't like having my judgment uh this is the franklin that we know and hate right yes look i don't have time for this and neither does he like we have to remind you that this guy sucks the pressure off the secondary pulmonary where should we start nine psi.

[19:14] Have a seat, lend a hand, or get out of my way, but do not question me in my lab, doctor. We like this Dr. Hobbs, and she shows up a couple times through. I think earlier she was in. Is she the one who gets the medical officers handed off to her at the end? I think so. Either she gets it, or we wanted her to get it. One of the two. And I said 13 PSI.

[19:38] 13, 13, 13. Now you got it? Damn it. That had to be kind of fun for bigs. Like, just be a jerk, man. Just go full speed. You know, I got it. I'm doing a thing right now where I've got to play a guy who's very grumpy and very whatever. And, like, it's so not my personality thing to where, like, I'm turning around looking at the director going, is this what you want? Like, I'll go here if that's what you want. But, you know, but also he's yelling 13, 13, 13. He didn't say 13. He said nine. He said nine. I'm going to go, right? I have been on both sides of that. i have received instruction from somebody who is yelling at me for doing the wrong thing when i'm like i did exactly what you told me to do dude right i know i've also been on the other side of that where i've been wrong about the instructions that i gave so just careful folks careful it can be honest an honest mistake this wasn't good then take this and wear it, proudly as a free woman and someday come back to me i think the fact that that brooch or whatever that he gave her shows up when she's when she's like it's one of the things to prove that she was there she still had it on her that says that she cared if she was just using him for something she would have sold that for credits minute she got onto a planet.

[20:54] My ambassador because i'm just saying she is she is a a paid escort she knows how to make people think that she wants them what is it true like you asked me to remind you about a dearest suite you can look at it whenever you like all right i'll be right there i think it's one of those things i'd be like i trust you it's okay not londo we got to get this uh chance meeting with morden right here again high-ranking ambassador as particularly of the centauri republic right now walking alone through the... No.

[21:27] Who is there? Dude, this... You know what this has echoes of? Geometry of shadows. We have something to settle for that. Good call. I do love, though, that Morden can, like, have his own lighting scheme. Right? I'm surprised he doesn't have entrance music. I don't know how you did it. I don't think you have any interest in restoring the glory of the Centauri Republic. No. I think you are using us as agents of chaos. Oh, Lord. Convenient distraction, making it easier for your associates to do whatever they wish to do. My associates need a voice and an ear in the Centauri Royal Court. If you violate the terms of our agreement, my associates may turn their eye toward your homeworld. When he blasts the shadow agents, it's because of what happened right here. For the first time, he's like, oh, okay. You may come to regret it. Wait, what? So, fast forward to season four, right? And Morden comes in and he's like, I'm not going to blah, blah, blah. And Londo's like, fine. Pew, pew, pew. And then he shoots the shadow agents around him. Yeah. He does that because in this moment was when he's like, oh, he's got shadow dudes around him. And he realizes that right now. Oh, he just heard him? Mm-hmm. Is that, okay. I want to watch and see if I pick that up. If you put yourself between us and our objectives, you may come to regret it. There is nothing you can do to me, Mr. Morden, that has not already been done. Mm-hmm.

[22:52] Interesting. And he's a smart guy. Like, here he's showing. I put all the pieces together. Yeah. We need him alive for now. So they have, like, invisibility cloak thing, right? Yeah. Yeah, come in. I wonder if they, um, originally they were supposed to have the changeling nets. And they would look like normal people. I just thought I'd swing by. As opposed to just being invisible. But that got changed because of Odo. Dude, Biggs is ripped. He's big. I have to grab a fast shower, something to eat. I gotta get back to work. I thought your shift ended half an hour ago. Look, I saw how you were this afternoon in Med Lab. This is the lesson that Jeff has just taken from this show. If you do stims, you have a ripped, incredible body. So I am now going to start taking stims. Yeah, I think it makes sense. Well, it was busy. I lost my temper. Causation and correlation right here. You were crazed and distracted, and it nearly cost you the life of one of your patients. It's the head of security. Yeah, what are you going to do, Michael? Arrest me for being distracted? I didn't know that was a crime. Now, if you'll excuse me. A crime. I didn't know that was a crime.

[23:52] We haven't heard that since he came in. Commander Sinclair! Commander Sinclair! So you do your job and I'll do mine, okay? And you're not the boss of me. Just remember, I gave you a chance. I remember us talking about this the first time around, talking about you can only have this conversation if you've personally experienced this. And here's what we know now. JMS wrote this for Jerry, not because he's on the other side of it, but because he's in the middle of it. Exactly. Yeah. It's pretty deep. Basically, we were wrong about what we were saying, but I wonder, you know, I know JMS has the psychology thing and he worked as an orderly in a thing. And I wonder if a part of what he did was substance abuse, you know, maybe for whatever, whatever, whatever time he had in that. I wonder, or like maybe it was a part of what he did with substance abuse because he writes this so well. Yeah. Like in this part here, continuing into season, is it season five, right?

[24:51] All of that. He writes it as if he's lived it. But when we read his autobiography, it doesn't seem like that's been a thing for him. For him. Yeah. Certainly people around him. I would think when he was working in that space, though, we didn't do a lot around substance.

[25:06] Alcoholism, yes. But other substances, like, just not as much. But I love right now, like, just taking this scene we just watched. Fast forward to season five with Garibaldi and Lockley. And the way that, like, seamlessly Garibaldi... I love the progression because that's how addiction can work, right? It's very real. It keeps the major powers off guard, never knowing when to expect an attack. But what is the goal? If it isn't about territory, what is it about? That's the question, isn't it? It's not about territory. What is it about? Terror. I don't know. The only way we're going to survive this war is to organize the League, the Narns, and as many other races as possible into a cohesive, offensive force. Into a cohesive, interstellar alliance. So I remember the first time we watched this, Jeff, when Dylan came out with this idea while Sheridan was being hauled up for charges back on Earth, right at the end of season four, right? And then she comes in with Londo and Jakar, and they're standing in front of everybody at the podium, and they're announcing this big new interstellar alliance, and they're doing the flyover, which is an act of intimidation. And Sheridan just kicks back like, yeah, I'm the new president. I can do all of this. And you realize, like, it seems like he knew that this was coming. This wasn't a surprise. This wasn't something they just did for him, right? Yeah. Is this where he's telling her this is where it starts for her along that journey? I think so. I think in a real way, this episode is the birthplace of the ISA. Yeah. Mark that down.

[26:34] That's a sound bite. It's never been done before, and I can see why. I mean, it's like stacking marbles in a corner. I use that all the time at work. They're deep in their own agendas and their own rivalries. But at this moment, the stone-cold fact is that none of us can stand up to those ships. And that's the bottom line, because John Sheridan said so. If you just score one victory against the Shadows, it'd be enough to make some of the others come around. What? Perhaps we should give them a victory. Just like that. What? Just like that. And how do you suggest we do that? What? I could do this all day. Right? Are you sure you'll think of something? You could do it for years and years. Sheridan 316. John 316. Nuke him. Ha ha ha. People around here start talking more and more like Kosh. Speaking of which... Bingo!

[27:22] Huh. I'm sorry to bother you. I'm looking for Vir Kodo. I was supposed to meet him here? You just missed him. I had some details to work out with him. Details, huh? I think that he said that he was going to talk to you about them. Perhaps you could just tell me what I missed. What's impressive about this, I didn't pick up on it the first time, there's no way we could have, But when they were in the corridor, Londo says, do whatever, man. You can't do anything to me that hasn't been done before. Right here, he just figured out, oh, there's one thing that hasn't been done to you before. X amount of something is safe. Y amount is dangerous. X amount of stems in your bloodstream proves that you're not addicted. Y amount proves that you are. It's funny how easy it is to just lose track. You don't realize how much you're doing. But the numbers don't lie, do they? No, they don't. So, now that we both know the truth, what are you going to do about it? That's funny. I was just going to ask you the same question. Because right now, it's not my decision. It's yours.

[28:21] Yeah. I guess it is. You know, we gave Franklin a really hard time about a lot of things. And one of the things we give him a hard time about is that he's like, oh, look at me. I know everything. I'm the best doctor that has ever existed. I submit to you that perhaps he is. Because he was able in this moment to look at those test results and just take them for what they were. I think someone who may not have the professionalism that he has would have been like, oh, yeah, it must be. Maybe there's something wrong with the scale that they're grading on. Maybe it's a blood. He would find some excuse. But he really boiled it down to numbers don't lie, man. Right. But I don't think this is the thing that ultimately shook him out. This is something that Franklin has been questioning in his mind for a while.

[29:11] This isn't just the, oh, man, I thought everything was nice and groovy. I took this test. I looked at the numbers. Holy crap. Turns out I'm addicted. And now I got to do something about it because I don't think that's what's going on here. He's been worried about this for a while. He's been aware of it for a while. And then he shoves it down. he forgets about it and just carries on and shoots up his next shot. Right. Um, it wasn't until he was able to look at the numbers that he was able to go, okay, this thing I've suspected about myself, this thing that I've done this in that way, he was ready to deal with it. If he, if he had, and what I'm saying is if he had seen those numbers logic or not, if he wasn't ready to deal with it, he would have done what you said and created an excuse. Maybe he came to it as a person who was ready to deal with it when when this this thing hit him in the face I like that I think because I was thinking about it more in terms of he was definitely on the path of seeing it but he could rationalize everything that happened you know gosh I really like should I have taken that shot at this is yeah I should have because we were shorthanded or he had an excuse for everything and this was the thing he finally hit where he's like I can't, rationalize my way out of this one mm-hmm yeah I think it's.

[30:20] He went on the journey, essentially. I know you can't take the entire Shadowfleet by yourself. But if you could beat them in just one fight. He's going to be like, you want to bet? It could be the break we need to get everyone organized. Then we'd have a real chance. That's actually kind of funny considering he just said that to Kosh's face. I know you can't take them out yourself. Right? Perhaps. But there are still few of us. It is not our time. It is yours. We are not prepared yet. Don't turn your back on me. Don't you even try to. Before we get into this, I want to ask this question. Kosh just says something. It is not our time. It is yours. At the end of the war, I think it's Dylan and Sheridan in that little transport as they go off. It's our time now. It's our time to make some magic. It's our time to whatever. It's our time down here.

[31:09] It's our time. It's their time up there. But down here, it's our time. It's our time down here. Is that what Kosh was just talking about? Is he trying to tell them, hey, guys, this is your time? I think what's interesting is how it would be their time if the Shadows and Vorlon weren't there. Because it is past their time. It's no longer theirs, but they're still here. The Shadows are a problem because the Vorlon exist. The Vorlons are a problem, not depending on perspective, because the Shadows exist. Sheridan says it well, again, back up in Season 4. It's like giants playing in the playground. They shouldn't be there. Yeah, here they are. So yeah, he's not wrong. This is going to be your time. and i think he's setting that up but also it wouldn't have to be our time bro if you did what you should have done and gotten the heck out of dodge kosh is using the problem he and his people have helped create as the justification to not solve the problem don't turn your back on me don't you even try to walk away from me just who the hell do you think you are wait i know what you think i'm your daddy but i don't buy it for three years now you've been pulling everyone's strings getting us to do all the work and you haven't done a damn thing but stand there and look crypt. Well, it's about time you started pulling your own weight around here.

[32:19] Dude, I know that look. That look was, who are you talking to, son? I don't know that he has ever been spoken to that way. Ever. Right? I mean, like, that's, I know that, I give that look sometimes. Yes. He just turned around and went, well, I can't say it. This is a family-friendly show, but dang. Yeah, he just said, do it. Do it. I dare you. I don't know. It's a non-localized phenomenon. Where's Corwin? I know you've got a saying. Understanding is a three-edged sword. Well, we've got a saying, too. Put your money where your mouth is. Impudent. I've got a few other sayings that would have fit better right there. Put up or shut up comes to mind. You're a legend, too, and I am not going away until you agree. Incorrect. Leave now. No. Disobedient. Up yours. So good.

[33:19] This is how it's going to be. Angry enough to do something about it? People get off their encounter suit at butts and do something. I've got nothing to lose. My own government wants to kill me. And if we lose this war, I'm just as dead. Our only chance is to get the other races on board for this fight. And right now, you're the key to doing that. It is not yet time. Yeah, it is. You put me in this position. You asked me to fight this damn war. Well, it's about time you let me fight it my way. So good. How many people have already died fighting this war of yours, huh? And he's right. How many more will die before you come down? It's his war. Right. Ships, colonies, whole worlds are being destroyed out there. And you do nothing. How many more? How many more, Kosh? How many more dead before you're satisfied, huh? Wow. Go ahead, maybe one more death.

[34:23] Go on, get it over with. It's incredible how right Sheridan is. He is describing what's actually happening. Right. It's a game of chess, and the Vorlons are willing to sacrifice all the pieces. But there is a price to pay. I will not be there to help you when you go to Zahadim. You already said if I go to Zahadim, I'll die. Yes. He's not wrong. If that's the trade-off If you want to withhold your help When the time comes That's fine I'll go it alone And really what What Kosh means is I can't go with you Right But you will.

[35:06] Although, Kosh is there. Sure. Because there's a piece of Kosh. So at what point does Kosh inhabit Sheridan? Was it in that moment right there where he zapped him? I think it's as he's dying. And then we'll see. I think it's at the end of this episode. We just haven't hit it yet. Okay. Yeah. So this whole scene for me, just reframed, comes the Inquisitor for me. Right. And what I wonder is, was Kosh pretty much, was he not as angry as he was playing to be? Sheridan proved himself when in comes the Inquisitor, but I would say Delenn proved herself more than Sheridan. She's the one who took hours and hours and hours of hell. And he basically had to, uh, watch, you know, what was happening to her. And so she's the one, right? Like she showed she's the one. And part of her being the one was she's like, Hey, if I go, there's someone who will come behind me and there's someone who will come behind them. Like I'm okay sacrificing myself. I wonder if Kosh was escalating this to the point to get to where Sheridan just did of, fine, kill me. Because if that helps end this, it's okay. Like, it's almost his comes the Inquisitor moment. Wow. That's, that's, wow. The other side to that, though, is he was that angry and spinning it up. And it's just like, Kosh, what did you think was going to happen? Because you actually watched this play out last season. Right. Either way, I see that episode a lot differently now.

[36:34] The Vorlon are engaging the Shadows. I don't think I ever realized just how much bigger the Vorlon ships are than the Shadows. Or how much bigger the Shadow Vessels are than the Vorlon Vessels. Do you think the ships, because they're organic tech, experience physical pain? I do. In fact, I think that that gets referenced at some point. Hmm, I think. It's strange I can barely catch my breath. I have been looking forward to this for so long that I feel... It's like this beating in my chest. I don't know what it's from. I feel happy. I had almost forgotten what it was like. But I don't understand. We couldn't have missed her. Excuse me, sir. There are more coming behind you, are there not?

[37:29] What's Londo thinking? Oh, yeah. Ambassador? Who is that? I'm sorry, this isn't... I said, who is that? So what we know is... Who is a duet to read?

[37:38] What we know is Morden actually killed her, or the shadows with Morden actually killed her. Mm-hmm. Right? But it was ordered by Rifa. No. Rifa had nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with it. They framed Rifa. They framed Rifa for it. Okay. The Persa found her in her cabin just before they docked. How did they get on board to kill her if they've been on babylon five this whole time i feel like that gets addressed okay i think i'm sorry ambassador did you know her yeah i've been planning to stupper for the next like week how did she die we don't all six there was no sign of violence no obvious trauma it may have been natural causes we won't know for sure until there's an autopsy why why did you do this poison was always the instrument of choice in the old republic being something of a sentimentalist i got here first and because sooner or later you would do it to me londo just bloviating in that scene and then that going from that to to this right here like you can feel i'm sorry ambassador i'll see to it you get a full report Checkup for poison. You hear me? Checkup for poison. I should stop by, see Kosh. Thank him for his help. It's almost 2 a.m. You're exhausted. My grandfather had a saying. Good news can wait. Bad news will refuse to leave.

[39:02] Get some sleep. Good news can wait. Or bad news can wait.

[39:10] Let's go. How many of them are there? Johnny. This is where the piece of Kosh goes into Sheridan. Because this is Kosh. Yeah. I don't have much time, son.

[39:26] I want you to know you were right. I didn't want to admit that. Pride i guess you get my age you get kind of set in your ways it had to be done don't blame yourself for what happened later okay we understand this is actually kosh talking to sheridan yes you were right right you were right uh don't blame yourself for what happened later it had to be done what's he talking about making the forlorn fight he was right to make them fight and stuff's going to escalate dramatically and he shouldn't blame himself for that or talking about his own death right here i think he might be yeah it's like it had to be done i had to die this had to happen right i don't know if that part had to happen i think it was the borlon getting involved that had to happen i literally could see it being either one all right let's keep watching.

[40:13] Yeah i agree to you you're right still late for me i'm sorry for what i did before i knew what was ahead he's apologizing i guess i guess i was afraid when you've lived as long as i have you You kind of get used to it. To being afraid? I wish I could have done more for you. Wow. There's so much I should have said, and now it's too late. That's so powerful coming from his dad, like the image of his dad. You're right. It's time you begin fighting this war your way. It's beautiful, and it's Vorlon manipulation at such a deep level. No, no, don't leave. As long as you're here, I'll always be here.

[40:58] Gosh. Gosh. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Who had it worst, Reefa or Kosh? I think they had it. It was almost the exact same thing. I think we were going over Kosh's place with a fine-tooth comb, but we've got nothing. Except Reefa's head didn't get displayed right here. DNA fragments. The place looks like it's been through a war. No sign of a body. You will not find one. Then how do you know he's dead? I know. Because he didn't have a body. So did the Vorlox. Well, he had to because he shook hand and got poisoned. They asked us to keep this to ourselves. We must have known this would happen. As soon as the Vorlons got directly involved. That's what he meant when he said, that he wouldn't be there for me later. I thought he was angry. Trying to punish me. He's an angry Vorlon. Look at him and... They'll see that soon enough. Who would think he could be afraid? The Vorlon government made one final request. They asked that his encounter suit, everything that was his, be placed in his ship. So his ship can sail out to sea. It was poison. That girl was poison.

[42:02] So she got poisoned. And I believe you know something about this. Last thing I heard from Lord Rifa was that he was very upset with you. Understandable, you did try to poison him after all. So this is Morden playing him. Yep. Rifa doesn't know a thing. Nothing. I wasn't able to find out what he was planning because he stopped talking to me right after that. Because you told him to. Yeah. This is your fault, Wando. If I had stayed in contact with him sooner or later, I'd found out what he was up to and I could have stopped him. Yeah, so she still had it on her. i gave this to her i might as well have signed her death warrant it's just like this is it this is it everyone around me dies mr morden except the ones that most deserve it that is about to change you said that you would go away for as long as i wanted i no longer want that all i want now.

[42:54] Will you help me, Mr. Morden? Hmm. Of course. Let me think about it. Ambassador. I don't know. As ever, I am always in your service. As ever. So let's examine this a little bit, because I feel like they didn't make any sense. I want you, Mr. Morden, to strike down those who did this to me, Reefa, and ensure the safety of my people, Reefa, and let the galaxy... The galaxy had nothing to do with this. Like he clearly wants revenge on Rifa, which makes sense, which he gets by calling Jakar. Like, hey, here's an idea. Yeah, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't know if I am reading it wrong or not seeing something. Like let's say I manufactured the murder of your wife and you found out that I did that.

[43:41] And so you went to, I don't know, the big bad guys who were killing a bunch of other people and said, okay i'm going to work with you because i want to go kill jeff and i don't care if everyone else dies too also you need to make sure that jeff and his family and all my people are taken care of but doesn't that go back to the thing that we saw back in knives like i'm gonna kill you and so i've gotta like i'm honor bound to take care of your family which she does with rifa's family which he does right but so to be like yeah like help me go kill this guy i don't care what happens let everybody else burn. Oh, except for my people and his family. Cause I'm honor bound to take care of maybe, maybe I don't know. Sorry. Yeah. Like I, I wasn't just trying to be silent. I was just trying to think through the different, the different pieces of that, because basically I was just kind of like, no, Wanda was just effing pissed. And like, yeah, The gains towards redemption that we had started to see him make over the last 14 episodes or so. Gone.

[44:44] It's just amazing how fragile the progress you make can come really, in an instant, a single choice can be wiped away. Yeah. There's a note on the Kosh fight from JMS. Oh, yeah? He caught a little bit of flack for not showing the fight. People were confused. And he said that he figured there was literally nothing that he could possibly show that wouldn't be disappointing. That's brilliant. Absolutely. On his part. Yeah. He says if we showed Kosh shooting a defensive field or a shadow opening his suit with a can opener or anything else obvious and physical, it would have diminished the scene and the Vorlons. They're supposed to be mythic, indirect. You see them out of the corner of your eye. So him dying this way fit the proper metaphor of who they are. And he left them wanting more, which is always what you want to do. I think it takes a very strong writer to not answer questions and leave things open-ended because of this very reason. There's nothing that I can put out there that is going to be – there's never going to be a – I have my own stories that I've been trying to tell people that, frankly, if I were to actually tell you the real story of how it goes, it would never be nearly as satisfying as what you've built up in your head. You know, I've also got some really cool stories that are freaking awesome and I need to tell them someday, but today is not that day.

[46:09] So, yeah. We're heading into a big scene right now with Dr. Franklin. And I have another thing that JMS shared that I want to share beforehand because I think that this lens will add to the scene. Okay. Richard Biggs had confessed to JMS that he had been doing some things he shouldn't have been doing. He doesn't share the details out of respect. JMS doesn't. And Franklin's stim storyline motivated him to quit what he was doing. JMS based the dialogue in this scene on the actual conversation that he had with Richard Biggs with the first two lines being taken verbatim with Biggs's permission. He said a thing I really loved. He said, lots of people have talent. Few have talent and integrity. And Richard Biggs is one of them. Good on him. Yeah. And we know this is something JMS does. This is like a JMS special. Let's take something people really said and do something. Yeah, right. Garibaldi said you wanted to see me privately. Yes, I did. Maybe you've noticed. Maybe you have. Franklin going to Sheridan. Biggs going to JMS.

[47:15] I've been taking stems, John. A lot of them. Too many. Because they kept me busy. They kept me from looking in the mirror and realizing that I do not know who was looking back at me. I was so obsessed with fixing other people's problems because I was afraid to face my own I don't think I have that luxury anymore so effective immediately I am resigning as chief of staff of the med lab facility. I'm not sure what I'm gonna do Guess I'll look.

[47:42] Figure it out. Look, I've got a lot to figure out. And it's time I got started. Everything about that scene was perfect.

[47:50] The courage it took for Franklin to show up, the leadership of Sheridan to recognize that even though he had other stuff going on, this was a really big moment. And even at the end when he hesitated to shake his hand and accept the resignation, he's like, this actually is the right thing to do. And I'm going to do it. And to know that Richard Biggs was experiencing the same thing. What a powerful moment imagine though the atmosphere and maybe if i even dare say the word community that jms as the showrunner built on the set and around the offices that biggs felt comfortable enough to be able to come to him and be like hey this is what's up and while he may have lost his job or whatever else is going on he was able to man up and do that and that's directly because of what that yeah like what was going on there so that's the workplace that's something else man it's uh interesting we talked earlier about uh so much of this storyline being written at garibaldi yeah i have to wonder if maybe jms had some awareness of whatever it was biggs was doing and used this whether he did or not i am highly inspired i'm inspired by the fact that playing this part in this role in this storyline motivated bigs to do stop doing whatever hurtful harmful thing he was doing that's that's huge right like god what an actor what a man and.

[49:20] Now what yeah once cautious belongings are loaded into his ship it will activate itself the ship was made for him it cannot live without him so it will grieve as we do in its own way and perform its last duty in memory of Kosh.

[49:42] That's a beautiful shot there at the end. Yeah. Brent, for the second time, we just watched Kosh's ship fly into the sun. What do you got on this one? I remember being very confused about that whole thing. Yeah? Like, why did it fly off into the sun? I don't understand. I didn't get the organic tech thing. I think I just thought it, again, more metaphorical than anything else. On that, though, it is interesting because the Minbari, when they die, right, When they're old and they're done, they fly out to sea. Right. Almost think that's like a co-opted piece of the- Maybe that's kind of where they picked it up from. This is an episode that is hard to think of contained into itself. Yes, Kosh dies, but that's maybe six minutes of the episode. Maybe not even that much of the episode. There's so much more that happens. And our friend Ben in our council chamber said it at the outlier. This really is kind of where the serialization of the show really kicks into another gear and I think he's right like the show has been quite serialized for a while but from here at least through episode 6 of season 4 it's it's literally one long story and episode like episodes don't begin middle and end this is they just sort of.

[51:01] Tell the story tell tell that particular part of the story right um so it's hard to, think about this in terms of the episode in and of itself and it really takes me back to when we were doing this for the first time because what was our job the first time around be in the moment what are we in the moment right we're stopping every 45 minutes and we're kind of capturing thoughts and i remember so many of the comments were just stop and watch the rest of the show because you need the context of the full show and i kind of feel that right now of like trying to stop and talk about this without a second viewing of everything else now we can have a conversation because we know where it goes right but to do it without that context man i don't know if i feel like this is a good episode or not it's not bad i don't know if i feel that it's incomplete or if i know that it's incomplete because i know there's so much more that's going on yeah you know does Does that make sense what I'm saying? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Like, I just, it's hard for me to sit back and be like, yeah, here's this episode, right? It's a great episode. Right. It's a great episode.

[52:07] So I dig it. I like it. I am ready for the next episode. Actually, I don't know, because I think I know what the next episode is. Yeah. I don't know if I want to go back to that episode or not. I'm really sure. Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. I'm really struck in this one, though, how it's a Babylon five episodes, so it's heavy. But this has three very specific heavy things that reverberate through the series, right? The death of Adira, the death of Kosh, and Franklin acknowledging his stem addiction. Each one of those in a lesser show could be the entire episode. This was an episode that got to the end, and my thought was, it's already over? And it packed all of that in in a way that felt natural and breathed and, to your point, planted these incredible seeds that I think the first time around we understood were seeds being planted, but we had no idea what they were going to become. No idea at all. And I just said it during the watch, the two things I'm leaving this episode holding on to are I really blamed so much of the shadow Vorlon war from this point forward on the death of Adira and Londo's response mm-hmm I don't know now like I just don't know I'm gonna carry that as we watch more but the other big thing is that reframing of comes the Inquisitor that scene was shared in and Kosh was.

[53:37] Through that lens for me was unbelievably powerful. Right. I had a, I had some notes on messages. I'm not sure if you had any, I got two. Yeah. Why don't you go ahead? Yeah. Um, the, these both kind of come out of the talk that Kosh slash Rance Howard had with Sheridan, right?

[53:58] This line jumped out at me and I, and it just had me spinning and thinking, and honestly, it's, it's kind of what's been consuming my thoughts for the rest of the episode. Like as I've been watching, like the other half of my brain is but i don't know if that is that the add thing like like yeah all of that's happening i recognize that's happening but my mind is thinking about this line when you live as long as i have you kind of get used to it and that is said in the context and i think this is what he was talking about in the moment being afraid because right when he said i was afraid and i guess when you live as long as i have you kind of get used to it it's an interesting thing thinking about the vorlon for so long living afraid afraid of what and then i remembered something do you know where i'm going with this going to when they're like little kids with lorien and they're just like we just want daddy we just want yeah they're like will you go with us yeah please please okay so what are they scared of right being alone no are they scared of going beyond the rim are they scared well what does beyond the rim signify death in this galaxy it signifies death the vorlon were scared of death and he says i was afraid for so long i just got used to living this way everything i've done i've done because i was scared right like yeah we're gonna help other people we're gonna do this but it's all because i was scared to die and here's Kosh going, yeah.

[55:23] You're everything you said was right. And I've just been afraid of dying and I've been afraid of dying for so long. I've just gotten used to living afraid.

[55:32] And basically, he's sitting there like Kevin McAllister. I'm not afraid anymore. You hear me? I'm not afraid. You know? And what happens? What immediately happens? Kosh dies. He was scared of death. And it caused him and his fellow brethren to live in such a way that, frankly, while they were trying to be helpful, I still think. I think their motives were impure, but their methods, I think, were good. Does that make sense? It's their time to go it was cautious time to go out beyond the rim right they're afraid now he's leaving behind a whole lot of afraid brethren a lot of other afraid vorlons out there and frankly a whole lot of afraid shadows but think about it this way watch this show again when you do babylon five for the third time which we will not be doing here on the bad nerds channel we will do it personally on our own but i want to encourage everybody else on your next watch through watch this story through the eyes or visit the Vorlon shadow story through the eyes of a species two species two sides of the same coin we often say right yep that are afraid they're actually just afraid it reminds me of the saying that so many people are so afraid of dying they forget to live yeah yeah and that's what these two races have done for thousands of years right now that That leads me to my next piece, all right?

[57:00] There's a truth there's a hard truth um we as human beings achieve immortality through our children through the things that we leave behind the people that we leave behind i'm going to amend that because it's not necessarily your biological children it's anybody that you've had an impact on anybody that you what leave a piece of yourself with okay yeah you see what You see where I'm going? And it is in that way that we live forever. My ancestors live on through me. When I die and pass away, I will live on through my two children and hopefully their children. And that will go forward. But not just them. Those kids that I coached four years ago who still come up to me and tell me coach and call me coach because I see them out and around town. I haven't been your coach in years. And that's how you – like that's the impact I've had on certain people. Hopefully, Jeff, and we know because we've had some feedback, the impact that you and I have been able to have through this amazing platform, which is not something we ever set out to do. No.

[58:08] Sure happened though. In the impact that you leave, you leave a bit of yourself. And in that way, you live forever. And I just – I love that. That is the means by which we live on. And so, frankly, it doesn't make death so scary. Right. Because I know I'm going to go on. Whether people remember my name or remember that it comes from me or not, I'm going to go on. Those are the things I pulled out of this episode. You said you had a couple notes. What did you have? I really saw this episode through a lens of three people facing extreme trauma.

[58:44] Londo, the trauma of losing Adira, the one thing he ever truly loved in his life, the piece of humanity. or centarity that he was finger nailing his way to hold on to. Uh, Dr. Franklin facing his addiction and having that come to light for him. And then Sheridan, uh, facing up to Kosh and then handling the death of Kosh. And those three people handled it so differently. When you experience trauma and you're aware of what's happening at some level, you get to make choices in how you respond. There was a version of this where Sheridan could have found out that Kosh died and just go all hands on deck. We're going after the shadows. How dare they kill Kosh? I want revenge. They can't do that to my buddy, but he didn't. Instead, he was like, this sucks.

[59:42] We're going to take this now to unite us and make us even stronger. Franklin had the opportunity to double down on his rationalizations, get more mad at Garibaldi, plant his flag and say, I am the chief of staff of this medical office. You can't take that away from me. Instead, he chose humility and he chose the safety of himself and others. And then there's Londo who immediately went full tilt revenge. Yeah. And when we watch those things play out through the rest of the series, right? We end up seeing Franklin hanging out with Garibaldi and his kid playing tennis with her and just being this great guy, this good mentor. He's number one to number one, like all these awesome things that happen for him. We see Sheridan become the first dictator, I mean, the first president of the Interstellar Alliance. Wow. I still have... Let's be clear, folks. That was not a slip of the tongue by Jeffrey over there. No, you can go back and listen to our first time. You can send your emails to.

[1:00:44] Jeffdontgiveacrap at thebadnerds.com. No, but the Interstellar Alliance, despite Sheridan's approach to everything, was huge. It had galactic ramifications. Sure. And then Londo, his response here, almost led to the genocide. I don't know what you call genocide at a galactic scale, but it almost killed everybody. So the choices you make when you face your trauma. Xenocide. Let's call it xenocide. Xenocide. I like that. It's kind of fun to say, too. There you go. And then the other two aren't as deep, but I think there's a lot to be said for standing up for what you believe in, even against the worst of odds. What an example Sheridan was, up against the wall. Yeah. Dude, if you kill me and it solves this problem, cool. So just do it. Just do it. Imagine if we face the things that we believed in.

[1:01:32] That way. Wow. It could be incredible. And to kind of piggyback on your, one of the things you talked about, anyone can be and will be afraid. And that's okay. It's not a weakness. It's just, it's okay. We are afraid. And when I think we look at people in leadership positions or whatever, and we're like, they're so brave because they're not afraid. No, bravery is not the absence of fear it's the presence of action in the face of fear right it's okay to be afraid right and we all are sometimes but yeah this was uh i feel like both of us got more messagey in this one than in other ones but i think that they're just so strong in this i feel like it's been a while since we got messagey in one of these episodes you know well jeff those are our messages those are some thoughts on this episode we have one more duty when it comes to doing this particular show in this particular episode, and that is to place this episode in our 100% completely accurate definitive ranking, of Babylon 5 Season 3 for the second time. Jeff, you're the one with the duty this week of placing this ranking in its order. I don't know where you're going to go. I have a thought of where I would put it, and I don't know that I like it.

[1:02:49] But this is the spot what I get to do is I get to kind of try to guess the range that you're in. i could be way wrong or i could nail it we have 14 episodes on the list, I'm going to go with our middle five. Okay. That's the range I think you're in. I could be wrong. Our middle five, number 10 is Matters of Honor. Nine is A Day in the Strife. Eight is Voices of Authority. Seven is Sik Trinzit Wir. And six is Passing Through Gethsenim. I'll throw in a good one for extra measure. Number five is Dust to Dust. Jeff, am I in the zone or is this higher or lower? Where are we placing interludes and examinations? Well, I start my thought process on this down at exogenesis. No, I'm kidding. You're in the right zone.

[1:03:31] You're in the right zone. And I really started off at Ship of Tears is where I started, where I'm like, hmm, is this? And Ship of Tears is a higher ranked episode than this one. I'm going to choose to say higher ranked than better because I don't want to say any of these episodes are necessarily better than the other ones. They're just ranked differently. Yeah, yeah.

[1:03:54] This one has a lot of shares a lot of parallels with dust to dust right we get kosh as a daddy figure imparting wisdom onto someone else one in a drug-fueled haze the other one just you know just having a nice little sleep right passing through gethsemane we loved the first time around and still appreciate because of its reverberations through the series but its reverberations are thematic the episode the the reverberations we get from interludes and examinations are plot right like it's these are actual things that happen and so when i this is where i'm landing right now is in this dust to dust passing through gethsemane phase and i think that you made a really wise choice when you jumped up to number five and pulled dust to dust in because that is where it's going to land as the new number five episode on the season so far all right all right yeah it it's hard it i was trying to think of where i would place it and again it's so hard to do this in and when you take it in and of itself right you know what i mean it's it's just so hard but that said in and of itself the first time around uh-huh this landed at number eight for us it sounds like it might be about in that same spot might be it'll you know give or take one or two but it sounds like it could be in that same spot well jeff that's going to do it for interludes and examinations next up oh man this was jeff first time around favorite episode favorite episode and we got a lot of flack.

[1:05:21] For watching this episode right here because apparently it's out of order yeah made such a huge difference for us too right and then everybody was like actually it was meant to go here but then something happened and then it actually doesn't change a lot at all which is kind of what we were saying the first time around so we're going to do it this way again mostly just because we want the emails and comments love them next week walkabout sorry if you were expecting war without it next week folks it's walk about uh jeff what do you remember about walk about what do you remember thinking about walk about i remember um what's the word hating this episode oh absolutely this had the horrible stupid dumb song in it but also i think like i i'm eager to watch this one the second time because a hundred percent my sheer seething hatred of dr franklin fueled my memories of it because this is a very franklin focused episode but uh yeah i do not have fond memories of this one at all uh do you remember what you thought of it yeah i remember that lounge singer in this one yeah in that song apparently jms wrote that song and dude songwriting's not your bag man good i mean listen bravo for trying it good on you for being brave enough to put it out there but not my bag dude hopefully it's somebody else's back hopefully somebody else really dug it.

[1:06:47] I think there are people who said that they liked it. Maybe, I guess. Somebody out there heard it and went, yeah, Joe, that's good. That's the thing. Yeah, do that. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, what I remember is there's another episode later. Shadow dancing. Is that it? That basically does the same thing, only it does it so much better. Yeah. So much better. But this is actually, and spoiler, I remember my actual prediction. I haven't even looked it up. i just remember it i predicted it would be a literal walkabout and it was a literal walkabout yeah that's that's what it was until he got stopped and i remember you and i were going back and forth about like who is this girl he's is he gonna meet himself turns out he didn't meet himself till much later like what's going on and we said she was meeting himself which actually i still really like that i like that much better than him you know superman what superman three Superman 2, one where Clark Kent and Superman split apart. I like that much better than the other way. That's what I remember was this episode...

[1:07:54] Did not and i can understand why people would be like amped up for next week if they're expecting war without an end only to be like no we're doing walkabout you're like what why i wanted the next week off not this week like what did we know why i i feel like you know with uh jms writing the song There's a reason that professional baseball players are celebrated if they miss two out of every three times. It's probably the same in writing. You're not going to hit it 100% of the time.

[1:08:32] There's an incredible quote that Wayne Gretzky once made. You miss every shot you don't take. And kudos to JMS for taking the shot. So we get to watch out again here next week and see if it hits any differently for us. Thanks for hanging out with us today and watching this episode with us. We really appreciate it. We love having you along for the ride. You don't want to miss the next episode or any other cool stuff that we are doing here on the Bad Nerds channel, the Bad Nerds feed, the Bad Nerds Patreon. We have a couple of places you can grab our stuff, so make sure you're subscribed and all that good stuff. Our Patreon, I do want to give it a little shout-out. We have a lot of really cool stuff on there in addition to the unedited Babylon 5 episodes. We also have our United and Stargate episodes and a lot of the other projects that we're doing, both together and solo. So you can check that out. There's links in the show notes. But the one thing that you can do, if it is the calling of your heart to somehow honor this show, Brent and myself, the one thing you can do is share this show with someone. Share it with somebody who will truly appreciate what we bring to Babylon 5 or who's just going to enjoy watching two yahoos watch this incredible show for the second time. So with that, I'm Jeff. That was Brent. Yes, what's going on? Man, hey, listen, I just want you to know.

[1:09:51] Time's coming, it'll come for all of us, and when that time comes, when all is said and done, I need you to know, my friend, you've made an impact on me. Yeah? Yeah. Thanks. You've made a real impact on me, too.

[1:10:09] I think I'm better, actually. I'm a better person. God, I'm going to start going. I'm a better person, Brent, because I know you. Oh, Jeff. It's almost like. Don't. It's almost like. Don't, man. You're going to ruin it. Like a ship blown from its mooring by a wind of the sea. Like a sea dropped by a skybird in a distant wood. Who can say if I've been changed for the better? But because I knew you, I have been changed for good. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.