Knives | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. 5, the name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and that changed everything. So now we've decided to watch this incredible series for a second time so we can catch all those little things there's no way we could have caught the first time around. I'm enjoying the second watch, Jeff. I am so much. It's a whole different animal this time around, isn't it? Big time. I've said it before. I'll say it again. Babylon 5 is a show you get to watch for the first time twice. I love it. I absolutely love it. You know what else you get to do for the first time twice? What's that? Search the show for messages. Yes. What is the show trying to say? Because you know what? It changes. One, you kind of know JMS a little bit better, and you know what's actually happening. And so you can be like, oh, this is actually what he was trying to say by here.

[1:24] You know? Yeah. But it does. But along with just catching all the stuff that we missed, we are looking for those messages that are contained within. Are they the same as last time? Are they different? What do we got going on? We're asking questions like, is this holding up a mirror to society? Is it giving us hope that things can be better in the future? Is it showing us how we can be better human beings to one another? Now, that being said, Jeff has said, I have said we have seen this show before. If you have not, this is your one and only spoiler warning. Warning this show is full of spoilers all the way to the end of babylon five and babylon five if you're this far into it hopefully you've realized by now is a story it is an entire story front to back you can jump in at any point but honestly this is the spot like maybe a couple episodes back would be really a good spot to stop yeah if you miss those start with a now for a word you can just go there because a now for a word will catch up on everything you missed yeah it's basically a clip show basically but it's not a clip show at all which is what i've been saying for three years This is your spoiler warning, folks. If you haven't, go back and watch it for the first time. Trust us. It's better that way. You can even join Jeff and I. We have archived our show where we went through for the first time and then come back and join us for the second time. This is your spoiler warning. We will and can talk about anything from any point in the series. Absolutely. This week, Brent, we're watching the episode Knives. Do you remember what you thought about this episode? First time we watched it. Yeah, it was an Edward Scissorhands riff. Totally. Yeah. Hedges and everything.

[2:54] I mean, the number one thing as a Stargate fan, it's got Jacob Carter in it. I'm so excited for that. And I saw him come on. I don't remember if I saw his face first or if I saw his name first. Probably his face. It's Jacob Carter. It's Carmen. I can never say his last name right. Argenziazo. I also remember being very touched by this episode. Like, like I was like, it hit me. I was like, wow. Okay. Okay. Very, very touched by this one.

[3:19] This is an episode. I remember that really shows who Londo truly is for all the crap that he does and all the stuff he pulls and the, he tries to be good, but then he gets drawn back into what, into what's going on. This is the one that really shows what Londo is made out of. And Jeff, I was thinking about this earlier today. I am really excited to watch this particular episode with the fall of Centauri Prime in mind. Oh, yeah. When he walks like a man to the keeper, and he is sacrificing himself for his people, and what happens in this particular episode, I'm really looking forward to looking for these particular fence posts. Um but i mean this is just this is just a show that shows us how human londo truly is and he really is a good dude inside that's what that's what i remember from this episode how about you i remember loving this episode i really enjoyed it i remember thinking it's like this isn't a big deal in the scope of the story of babylon five and so like you i'm excited to see how it fits into everything and i just thought of it as being a peak londo episode the two things i really remember out of this one was i recognized a lot of the kind of the centauri bro culture as being very lebanese very middle eastern and and how it showed up and then just that scene after uh londo does the deed to his friend and just the the anguish that he felt when that happened jeff.

[4:48] If we haven't hit this out we have to edit this out that's fine where you're from and you're part of the country yeah it means the same thing it also means a different thing what does doing the deed me he killed him because or he's not what it means where i'm from he's stuck it in made him it means that bleed yeah no yeah yeah uh jeff said it y'all it's just it's just fault yeah but no i remember really digging this episode with jeff i know what we said because i went back and i listened to our original episode fascinating i would love to hear that yeah this was actually one of the.

[5:25] Shorter episodes that we really had. Yeah. But that's okay. You did. You compared this to this whole Lebanese like, I haven't seen you in 10 years, so we're going to go out to dinner and it's going to be $10,000. Right. I was like, oh my gosh. Um, you said that if you take the death out of this episode, this episode feels just like a He-Man or She-Ra episode. Like the, and I guffawed at you. I was like, what are you talking about? What? I'm like the old filmation He-Man because you gotta say I was He-Man growing up. Like that was my jam. And I love She-Ra too. I really did. You went through and you explained the whole Larry Dottilio having written this episode, his background with She-Ra and He-Man and JMS's background with He-Ra and She-Man. And you made this statement. I really loved it. Babylon five was in many ways. Babylon five was born in a theory. Oh, wow. Yeah. Which for folks who don't know, that's where She-Ra is. Yeah. Because the Delio and Joe, they wrote the Bible. They are the genesis of She-Ra in a lot of ways. Yeah. You said that this was dumb. It was stupid. It was fun. And you liked it anyway.

[6:33] I love that. That's great. Right. You also said you use you use this as a wrestling term. OK.

[6:40] Urzo came in to get Londo over. Oh, yep. Because remember, there's there's this thing going on in Centauri like the prime the prime minister is dead. The emperor is dead. They're trying to figure out what's next. And, you know, you got to imagine Londo is at least in conversations. And he came in to try to get him over, meaning to make him popular, to push him over over the line. Right. Um, I once again earned my memes. I said, I was going to like this episode for two reasons. Oh, I've earned every single one of them. Nah, maybe not every single, but I've earned a lot. I said for two reasons, one, Jacob Carter, right? But two, this is the episode I declared made a declaration. Jeff, this was the episode that officially kicked off. However long it was going to take the redemption of Wanda Malari, which by the way, I have now shortened in my notes to, R-O-L-M. It's just, there it is. It's just, I can't write it anymore. It's just R-O-L-M. What I love is over in our Council Chambers chat. So Council Chambers tier subscribers to our Patreon are invited to join us for our recordings. They can chat. And there's a little couple second delay from when we say a thing to when they hear it. And just as you were finishing Redemption, boom, Suzanne's there with Redemption. Redemption. Like, they're like, we know what it is. You are living that meme. Apparently I said Hera and She-Man. Did you? I didn't pick up on that. I didn't say – I said Hera and She-Man, whatever. You guys know what I was talking about.

[8:05] I posited just a little theory, Jeff, and I want to propose something to you, my friend. Jeff, you and I, when we started this little venture, we're relative strangers.

[8:15] And over the last three, four, five years, however long it's been now, we've become fairly good friends. We've gone through a lot of life together. We've shared a lot of behind-the-scenes, just life details, different things like that. We're literally legally related to each other. It's true. We have discovered that that is that is yeah um i had a theory about londo and and uh urzo here that they had shared tattoos from whatever their bro background is now i happen to know you're not against tattoos jeff i have a couple have you ever seen or have you ever heard of the tattoo from lord of the rings i don't know so the the nine actors who played the fellowship of the ring who were in the fellowship like they formed the fellowship they all went and got a tattoo together other and I think it was the number nine okay and the deal that they made with each other like they all got the same one but the deal they made with each other was it would never be seen on camera all right all right you know what I mean so nobody actually knows what it looks like except for them but they all went yeah that's so cool I think we should do like shared tattoos yes I would be down right be down and Council Chambers you guys could join us too if you'd like, Um, anyway, I just, I don't know what it would be, but I just was like, I mean, they're, they a hundred percent have a shared tech, like the same tattoo. Yeah. That's whether it's, you know, yeah. Like anyway, um, I thought that we would come back to this episode many episodes later and realize that something else was happening here. Okay.

[9:40] There was this whole other thing that, that this would really wind its way back. What a whiff on that one. Yeah. No, this one never comes back. Right. Actually, I take that back. Well, no, it does. This one never really comes back. Like, we never see his children as part of House Malari or anything like that, right? Sort of. I'm trying to remember if the kids in In the Beginning were either this dude's or Rifa's. No, Rifa's. They were supposed to be Rifa's. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think we ever come back to this. Yeah, I don't know who the girl was. Maybe the girl was Urzo's daughter or something. Remember, like, she was babysitting the kids? Yeah, yeah. Maybe? I don't know. We're going to find out in about seven seconds when the council chamber is here. I think she might have been Reefa's and then the kids might have been Erzo's. Was that his name? Yeah. Erzo. Yeah.

[10:26] Erzo. Erza. It's not Ergo. It's not Ergo because it's great episode because it's actually good. So it's not Ergo. I said it was nice to see Londo acting normal again. I just sort of gushed over him. You know, I just, I did. I just, I was Londo this, Londo that. Well, I was just, I was in love. I'm in love with Londo. I really get those little teases, those little tastes of Londo, you know, and you're like, oh, this is so great. I'm just going to eat it up. And then we turn around and he just turns into the most horrible person in the galaxy. It's just enough to make us continue looking for that redemption. Yeah. So I said, we both said we were in very much agreement on this, that the whole Sheridan stuff in this episode, there's this whole thing with Sheridan. Oh, right. Oh, this is, it's like, he's playing baseball on this one. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[11:11] You said, you said that it served just as a reminder for something else that's about to happen. And you and I were both kind of like it really just the whole Sheridan stuff just fell flat. And the only reason for it is if it serves for something that's getting ready to come, because otherwise it just it was a nothing burger for us. I had one more note, had a new. Theory come out of this one okay this isn't exactly a red yarn because you know the red yarn you're trying to connect dots and you're trying to you're trying to do whatever this was more a projection of where the show might be going all right i will tell you ahead of time the show does not go in this direction i also right now officially lay claim to this story idea because i think it's a great story idea that i would love to see and it clearly will have a lot of Genesis and Babylon five and will owe a lot to JMS, but it is so different from his story that it cannot be, uh, uh, it's not copied from his story. This is just where I thought he might be going. So here, here we go.

[12:13] Basically, I thought that Babylon four was bouncing around the time period, collecting pieces from the entire timeline to come together and destroy the shadows. And the great war that was coming is where basically all of the different wars over time will be focused in on this one time. And the reason for that is you remember, like we said, hey, a thousand years ago, we defeated the shadows, but we did not destroy them. And then 10,000 years before they did the same thing. And a million years ago, they did the same thing. And the shadows have only ever been defeated. They've never been destroyed. The great war is what would finally destroy them. But in order to do that, what we would need is we would need the people who have battled the shadows from history to come for people to to all like like. Captain captain uh uh planet it by by all powers combined you know but but it's in in you know it's it's like the it's like the telephone booth from bill and ted you know going to get so crates and abraham lee like we're all gonna bring them here and we're all gonna just have this you know we're and we're gonna finally destroy the shadows all together it's like that's a cool premise for a story yeah that is it doesn't have to be shadows it doesn't have to be have one five there doesn't You create all new characters, all new background, but that basic idea of what's happening is Battle on 4 is bouncing around.

[13:38] Collecting people who have battled them before, who all come together and finally destroy them once and forever. Yeah, like you said, Bill and Ted, it's also an idea in the Wheel of Time. There's the horn of something, I forget what it is, but the horn that will bring back all the great warriors over time to come. It's an incredible concept, but I like the idea of doing that Bill and Ted thing of like, you have to go get them. Yeah, and you got to go convince them or whatever it is.

[14:08] Also, apparently, I just said that this wasn't going to be one of Jesus's versions, not JMS's versions. Apparently, I had a little Freudian slip. They're calling it out over in the council chambers. I'm guessing that's what they're saying over there. If I did, just because I know people are going to hear that and be like, what? So i'll call it out and be like i feel like i've had two or three of those probably already it's uh it's possible it's you know it's whatever deborah on here deborah in the council chambers chat uh coming in for my horn of valer horn of valer the hunt for the horns big deal yeah it's cool stuff but okay.

[14:41] Um so jeff that's that's what we said now do you have any official word from the great maker himself on what's going on with this episode i sure do literally one oh one from him and then one uh piece of just kind of noteworthy stuff um so i'll just read it and we talked we hinted at this last week says actually the chronological order was supposed to be knives then zaha doom in knives you get the reminder about anna then in zaha doom you get the payoff that was originally how they were intended to be aired but there was so much cgi work and rotoscope work and creature animation involved in knives that it got flopped to second in that order so while it works best the way it was intended it still works okay in this order interesting yeah i don't remember creature work in this one so i'm interested i don't either and i have i have a note for during the episode about the creature that'll come up. But this is, to note this, this is the final episode not written by JMS until Day of the Dead. And that's the only episode from here on out that's not written by JMS, period. Exactly. Here forward. This is, I would call this the beginning of the demise of the health and sanity of Joe Michael Straczynski. Oh, buddy. Joe, we appreciate your sacrifice, man. It's fantastic. It was great. Let's watch some of that sacrifice, Brent. Let's go ahead and pull this episode up. Yes, let's do that. Hey, listen, if you guys are joining us for the very first time out there, welcome.

[16:10] We always say every episode is somebody's first time, and we're glad you guys made this one yours. What's about to happen is Jeff and I are going to watch this episode together right now.

[16:20] If you're hanging out with us on YouTube, stick around because you guys are going to catch our reaction. This will turn into a reaction video. You guys will catch that reaction. And the good news is if you want to see the full unedited version of that reaction, which mostly is just us doing this the rest of the time. So if you're interested in that, you can head over to our Patreon page. You also can learn how to be a council chambers. Join us for all this weird stuff. Head over to our Patreon page, and you can find that at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're joining us on a podcasting app, you're going to hear the audio from that YouTube reaction. We want you to be a part of all of that conversation as well. When we come out of the viewing of the episode, we'll talk about any messages that we might have found, hit any high points from the episode, and then we will rank this episode in the objectively correct ranking of the second season of Babylon 5. So, Brent, let's watch some knives. Let's do it. Accessing file.

[17:18] Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah i remember this dude that was a great shot right at the camera, yeah okay so are we in a holodeck what is going on here i know or is this just a baseball field on babel on five which could be swinging like you've had a rough day baseball fields really aren't that big no i'm trying to have a session with the league of non-aligned worlds thinking about banning both the narn and the centauri from the corridor i love that he has an agamemnon, Oh, good call. Good catch. And Garibaldi has a B5 jersey on. I want a B5 jersey. The Fivers and the Niners. Triangle. This is one of those things where Sheridan's like, gosh, I really love baseball. I'd love to play it. And Garibaldi's like, if you build it, they will come. Weird noises, people vanishing. Maintenance nicknamed it the B5 Triangle. Yeah, we never hear of this thing again. Gray 17. Could have brought it back. Yeah. Anything to the stories? I like how the hits are all automated, not what it is.

[18:22] This might be the animation and rotoscoping they had to do. In that case, I'll have to take a look for myself. Why? Curiosity. When I was a kid, I used to love to wander through all those creepy places. Just don't go in there alone, okay? Oh, that's half the fun of it. What? I wonder what would happen if the person wouldn't leave. Like, would the computer be like, no, you're out. I'm not throwing you any more pitches. You're done. That's my, I'm just like, oh, yeah, this is the, here you go.

[18:54] He got himself doing, uh.

[19:05] Don't write them like that anymore. How fitting you should die with a song on your lips, Molari. I can recognize his voice. I love it. Who are you? You're doomed. Paso Leati. Paso Leati? Paso Leati. Oza! Oza! How good it is to see your side face again. Yes. We almost saw it for the last time. Hero of the Battle of Gorash and the finest swordsman in the Koropredo. Next to me, of course. Oza! Bir Koto, my attaché. I just don't believe that Londo is a big swordsman. Right? It doesn't... Fine swordsman, incredible pilot. It's about a long time. Really? I must decline for the moment. So this episode would have been filmed pre-Stargate. Yes. We have not been in Stargate yet. Probably predate him four-ish years, probably. Yeah, something like that.

[20:11] Another thing Stargate stole was the lighting from this scene. Zoom into the flashlight. Well, they heard my comment about lighting, and they're like, look, there's a light, Jeff. Calm down. They could learn a lesson or two from J.J. Abrams about how to use those for lens flares. I love the haze in the room so you can see the beam of light. I know. Are you all right? Uh-oh. Share it in to Garibaldi. Turns out you're right. I should not have done this by myself. Chief, I'm in grade 10. I've just found a... Maybe you call for medical help chief chief cap are they're well beyond medical help garibaldi i can't read you there must be.

[20:58] Dude you see that effect on sheridan's face that's actually really good the universal sign for i just put something inside of you i'm okay it's still on his face just get down here as soon as you can like this is part of what the rotoscope in here, His name's Shish... Nah, Shish... Something earlier. Chayoshne. Gesundheit. You like that. Registered cargo. Supposed to depart tomorrow. He's been staying in the Marcaps sector. All right, you and I will go through his quarters. Send a detail to check out his... Captain. Psilocybin's starting to hit. Dude, he is hiring a mofo. The doc is right about me needing some plastic. Michael, you're just so beautiful. I'll handle the search. You cop a little sack time, and I'll let you know what we find. I just really want to look at you for a while. Let's go watch Looney Tunes together. The Bravary? Yes, and you will not be disappointed. I don't think we ever see him drink out of those goblets again. I really expect him to do that, like, a wedding feast thing where you hook your arms. Right. Like, the way they were holding that. Yeah.

[22:10] I do want to point out that Jacob Carter is in an episode where a guy gets a little bean inside of him that makes his eyes glow. This is going to have to be Babylon 5 for the second time, not a Stargate podcast. It's going to turn into that. We should play the rule of three. That buzzer.

[22:33] That's a bad episode of Stargate. I was going to say, it's one of the worst. This is the creature. Yep. You know, it's almost unfortunate that they spent as much money as much money. The one they substituted for it because they had it done was in the shadow of Zaha Doom. Right. So in response to a question on the Usenet or whatever, JMS says, The critter in Knives was most definitely not a Vorlon. Who thought it was a Vorlon?

[23:09] Okay why would you think that's a war law what gives you the thought that that could possibly be a war law because as soon as you see one you'll recognize it immediately somebody recognized that that's somebody who clearly was not paying attention okay hey who's this person yeah yeah i'm okay she's like i'm here for zach allen oh she's got the tricorder on her head on my way with the forensics report when he systems picked up gunfire in your quarters it was no nightmare i saw it at least i think i did okay it happens i mean i went saw a whole chorus line of purple wombats doing show tunes in my bathtub of course i was pretty drunk at the time do that mdma is no joke like i was gonna say i've never had enough alcohol to hallucinate right yeah that's what is forensics that's a whole that's how it happens to me when i drink alcohol telling me he bashed his own scullion against the pipe where you found him you know what I need I think I truly.

[24:03] I like that he just made fun of him. Ah, Drake! Right? Put the stink on him. Your name is spoken often on Centauri Prime these days. Oh, yes? That your star is once again in ascendance. Rising star. As the Republics. Well, it's about time. Centauri have bowed to the whims of other races for too long. Now we will show the galaxy a true spirit. Beginning with this thrice-damned noun. Emperor Turhan. May the gods comfort him. I think that's the first time he's named. The Emperor was a good man, but he was wrong about that. Because Turhan Bey is the name of the actor. Right, right. They have given us little choice in the matter. The Narn did not start this conflict. They were forced into it by a faction within our own midst. The same faction who murdered Prime Minister Malachi and put that infantile puppet, Cartagia, on the throne. He is definitely infantile. He took his own life when the Emperor passed away. That's the official story. Official. Many such lies are told nowadays.

[25:09] Why do you tell me this, Urza? A resolution is about to be brought before the Centaurum, declaring me and my house traitors to the Republic. Oh, you're joking. I could never prove such a thing. These days, the mere accusation is enough. I am a marked man, London. House Urza's getting canceled. If you have their way, I will be disgraced. i'll do what i can i knew you would not deny me possibly i don't know if lando realizes now i must go what a weird spot he's in i will arrange a banquet like he is that faction i thank you and then here urza is speaking you know it's like i don't know it's a friendship a weird spot for him to be in and an understandable spot given how he got here she's pre-registered rooted to bay eight so that's like babylon five's version of um tsa pre-check, It always bothers me in these shows, especially in sci-fi, well, all of them, where clearly something is going on, and they're like, I'm just going to pretend like everything's fine.

[26:17] Captain, what is it? Station six. Go to hyper track. I want that whole area scanned right now. What area, sir? You know, all Ivanova needs to do is look and see his wide eyes look confused. Right? Yeah. To relieve him of command. Mm-hmm. go to the doctor right now i got this or i will relieve you of command like and i don't know how simple it is for an exo to do that but like right now she should know something is wrong put you on medical leave for a few days oh no no impossible i have a station to run well commander ivanova is quite capable of doing that i want you to relax let other people handle things for a little while give me your hand he's going to monitor any abnormalities in your system function and i'm also prescribing a mild sedative i want you to relax and enjoy yourself that is an order so sheridan right now is doing exactly what i hated franklin for back in this time no no no i'm the most important thing here i know best i know how to do it franklin's actually being amazing in this moment he could yeah he could not be a cool guy right now and he is but yeah it's a very getting strong franklin vibes from sheridan here you're just like your father that's just mean. That is a low blow. Thank you. I was going to say. Reefa at last.

[27:40] Our plans i was gonna say i like how he's trying to do the gravel from his voice who made your plan the reality and how it was done buddy if you insist on clinging to the cult of a doomed man there is little i can do but i will try yes you know on rare occasions i am proud to be your attache rare occasions such compliments will turn my head get me a drink and then contact all my agents on Centauri Prime. It's time I pay. You know, I'm sorry. A good life philosophy would be, is what I'm about to do or say, would it make Veer proud? Yeah. And if the answer is yes, then do that. That's the thing to do. Yeah. Neil in the Council Chambers chat. Rifa sounds like Strong Bad. 100%. Need more attention to what's happening on Homeworld. I haven't watched that stuff in a long time.

[28:34] There is one thing. He came to Sector 14 on his way here. Sector 14. Is that restricted? That's right. Ever since the incident last year with Babylon 4. Babylon 4? I thought that was destroyed. So did we, until we got a signal from it. Wait a second. I never read anything about this in the station logs. Well, that's because Earth Force decided to confiscate all the records for their investigation. I like this little twist. People were caught up in some kind of weird space-time phenomenon. We managed to get all its people off before it disappeared again, but Earth Force believes there's still some kind of anomaly out there. Maybe the Markev encountered it. I thought you said the records were all confiscated. I made a copy. You never know when I want to write my memoir. I am Michael freaking Garibaldi. Of course I have a copy. You mean this elbow? Like this? Is that what you mean?

[29:19] You've asked for my help. I've given it. No charges will be made against you or your husband. The resolution has already been brought before the Sintar, and my sources assure me it will pass. That's not possible. Lord Rifa promised. Rifa, what do you have to do with him? Remember that faction you were talking about?

[29:36] Okay, question. I want you to look at this. So, Urzo has come clearly with a plan in his mind. Yeah. Right? Did he arrive here fully planning to get Londo into a fight and kill him so that he can... Like, he didn't necessarily come asking Londo to help him. Did he come planning to get into a fight with Londo to force Londo to take care of his family and to fold his house into Londo's house? I think that was the plan. I remember thinking that the first time around. Okay, because I agree. So what's about to happen here? I want you to ask yourself the question. Is Urzo really pissed off that Londo is talking to Rifa? Or is he more pissed off that Londo is about to ruin his entire plan by getting them to back off? And now he hears Rifa and he uses it like this is his opening to enact the plan that he has had the entire time. I think that, and Ron makes the point in the chat as well, that the fight was probably plan B for him. Plan A was say we're allied and let's go forward. But I think that, I think it's legitimately, he's legitimately angry. Because in the moment he's like, I'm going to make this announcement. Everything's going to be cool. There's basically the political realigning of the houses with him saying we're allied now and now we're kind of with House Malari. And then there's the, we'll get in this fight. You'll kill me.

[30:52] You'll take my, either way, his house gets taken care of. But I think he was hoping to be able to do it in a more political way. And it just strikes me that right before he said Rifa, he was, he seemed very nervous to me about like, dude, you're about to ruin all of my plans by getting them to back down or you're about to ruin all my plans because you're about to tank your own house because you're aligning with me. So I think what happened was Londo talked to Rifa and left with the impression that he was going to pull the thing. In the time from him going there to here, he introduced it to the Centaurum, and it's going through the process. So Londo was surprised, and then Urza was like, he's not like, you're messing my plan up. He's like, what you're telling me isn't true. It's not being pulled. It's moving, and people are going to vote on it. And I think some of his anger, too, is probably like, well, crap. Now we're going to have to go do the knife fight. Let's watch and find out. Let's see. With his help, we will get no help from that assassin. It was he who had the resolution brought before the Centaurum. You must be mistaken. Knowledge is a basic tool of politics. Did she just call me stupid? Mine is considerable, but I never dreamed it would be a part of his schemes.

[32:05] See, I don't think he's being true here at all. No? I have a destiny to fulfill. I don't. One which will take our people back to a golden age. I think this is Urzo playing his hand exactly as he wants to play it. I think he's pivoting to play his hand. You know that I am an old hero, and what I saw ended a garage. His acting improved dramatically from here to Stargate.

[32:38] Ben says I'm just way overthinking it. He's probably right. My acting was a little bit a new day is coming to our people a great day and i can help you be a part of it you cannot build an empire based on slaughter and deceit turhan knew that i thought you did too perhaps it is best that i go no you cannot go he says turhan knew that but turhan was the emperor of an empire that was built on slaughter and deceit and lies but turhan also was the emperor who said we have built our empire on deceit and lies and i'm going to confess it and apologize and move us forward because i'm actually a good person right i see this stuff i just i just think it's it's interesting that he's like you can't do this and turhan knew no you did it like you actually did do it turhan knew that wasn't sustainable it wasn't the right way it wasn't any of those things that was going to shift but you can and i think like again i'm just struck by like the acting here is not good and i think a lot is lost in delivery but he's trying to take the legacy of turhan and continue it and that's where the traitor is that's where they're like you're you're treasonous because we killed turan you're he's bad news.

[33:55] I have a gift for you see look he had this ready to go yes 100 plan b he had plan b ready to rock And a finer blade I have never seen. It is the blade I carried a garage. I meant it as a symbol of our lights. Oh, it is magnificent, but I cannot accept it. Then accept this, Paso Leate. Oh! By the loss of the Kuro Prieto, I challenge you to the Milago Lando Molari. It totally makes sense. He brought it, again, with the hopes everything was going to go cool. He would live. He'd give it as a gift. It'd be symbolic. It'd be all this great stuff. Also had it, so if he had to execute plan B, boom. I have all the pieces to make it happen. You would fight me to the death, Ozan? Yes. To save my honor, or have you become... But right here, he knows he's going to throw the fight. Yeah, I think so. I take your gift. The fact, he says, my family, my friend, he's painting the... Does Londo know? Is he playing the game here? I don't think he knows. Do you think Londo knows? At some point, Londo figures it out. I think right now it's very real for Londo, I would imagine.

[35:22] Oh no no no no no no no that's not gonna fly no that was not his dad nope yes that's interesting because i never flashed back to that and realized the recap captain what are you doing i'm just going out for a little spin there's no need to worry i'll be back before you know it i took some ambien uh all right whenever somebody who's acting weird says there's no need to worry there's probably reason to worry. Jeff, here's a question. Could this whole storyline have been a B-plot in another episode? Oh, easily. Like, it didn't have to be an A-plot of its own episode, right? In a real way, this is two B-plots to create an episode. Or is it two A-plots? Delta 2 to Delta 1. Do you read me? No, it is not. No, because the Sheridan stuff is very blind, too. Is that you? It's one and the same. Mind telling me what you're doing? Giving someone a lift, I think. Want to explain that, sir? I quite got it all figured out myself, but I think you were right. The answer's in Sector 14. Sector 14, but that's... Yeah, I know. Lucky me.

[36:35] What was Sector 14, Jeff? That's where Babylon 4 was. The Barago is declared and accepted. Dude, that dude's hair is next level. Draw your swords with purpose and sheath them with honor. That's Wayne Static if he lived long enough to be that old. Dude, he was a Klingon on Star Trek. Was he really? Yeah, absolutely. I'd say, yeah, if he wasn't, he totally should have been. I have no idea if that's true or not, but yes. He's a blank actor, and he, yeah, he's a Klingon. Those are some shiny reflective swords. They really are. They look cool. They look like they weigh nothing in their hands. Part of the morago bean field war all right i want to know what they have in the holy studio that they're clanging together to make this like are these like pigeon spoons or, guys that clearly don't know how to sword fights are doing pretty well but these are sword masters jeff computer scan for any unusual phenomenon all right jeff what was the worst fighting scene this one or the one in tko malfunctioning oh this one is worse than, these those guys could actually throw what the hell.

[38:03] That thing just went out of Sheridan's body, through his helmet, through the cockpit, out of the cockpit glass, and then out into space. Tell me why it needed Sheridan's body as a host. At all. Yeah. Well, because we needed a story for this. It could have just gone. This is the reference that Jameis says that was most definitely not a Vorlon. Oh, I see. People had like, oh, that looks like a Vorlon. I see. I can see where people would think that. I can see that. Yeah, why didn't it just fly? Jumping. Jehoshaphat. Hey, while we're out here, Sheridan, question. Fasten or zip? Zip or fasten? So out in Sector 14 where Babylon 5 disappeared, there's just this constant rip in time that's just hanging out? Yep. That gets addressed in one of the books as well. That's where Sheridan's scar comes from. Or Sinclair's scar comes from. Sakai goes missing.

[39:18] In pro wrestling this is a feed to hit me in my gut pull up your arms hold it for a second So, again. So, yeah. Why did you make me do this? Gave him the feed, putting him over. My family. They could not let them. Yeah, this shows Wando did not know what was happening right. This was a little hit. And you will see they are protected. Yes. I almost bet Urza was like, he's going to lose. Let me go slow and give him the feed so that he... But he had to make it look good. Old friend, my dear old friend, I will miss you. No, you won't. You're going to die, bro.

[40:00] Part of that is they're both just like, oh my God, can we just stop? It was a life form. Sentient but completely alien. But what was it doing in your head?

[40:11] It's trying to survive and go home. He must have come through that rift in Sector 14 and somehow wound up in that Markab's body. It drove him mad. How did you figure out what it wanted from you? The images I got. Fear, loss, home. Somehow it was sending me a message and touching deep emotions in me which mirrored its own state. I have made many choices lately, Veer. And today, for the first time, I'm not sure those choices were right. Holy crap. Just pause for a second and let's think about the choices that Londo has made to date. Go ahead and take out that Narn chip. Go ahead and take out that Narn colony. all i mean just i mean he's literally started an intergalactic war and is perpetrating genocide and this is the thing he regrets and he realizes that well he's looking at all of the choices he's made right sending away realizing all of the choices that he's made that have been really shitty pardon my language and he's feeling guilt and remorse and you know where guilt and remorse lead to jeff the dark side they lead to redemption redemption of londo malari this is the start of The redemption of Londo Malari that I've been saying for so long. It's all part of it. Except it's not. But whatever. R-O-L-M. That's a t-shirt. Perhaps some good has come out of this tragedy. It's not too late to make some new choices. No. The blood is already on my hands. Right or wrong, I must follow the path. Oh. And there he goes. Yep.

[41:40] Washing it down the toilet. I want to sleep.

[41:49] I want to admit my, my own complete personal failure on this one, Jeff. Okay. I missed it the first time around. I said, yeah, this is Londo. This is going to get this kicks off his redemption story. This, that, and the other does the opposite. No, he literally doubles down. Yep. I have no choice. Like, I mean, from a messages standpoint, veer right there. It's not too late to make some new choices. And that's the thing we talk about in Babylon five quite a bit, right? Like it's, you're never pot committed as you can always do it. But Londo's like, Oh no, no, no, no, no. I'm all in. Look, he says the blood is already on my hands. Listen, you want to know what the real truth is here? Folks, when the blood is already on your hands, wash your hands. Yeah. You don't have to keep going. They make lava soap for a reason. Right. Just wash it. Move on. Wash your hands.

[42:38] Yeah. Jeff, second time around. Done. I'm sure there's a message there that we had. Um i'm gonna run just through a couple of these real quick that i put down because i don't know that there's a lot of discussion required um they're pretty self-explanatory the these days the mere accusation is enough to destroy me or my house no proof no court of law just accuse me and things go sideways because of how society is if that's not a mirror to society today well it's forget 30 years ago. Yeah. I mean, 30 years ago before that for all time, I'll never forget when I was in middle school, which arguably is the worst time of anyone's life. It's, but we had a choir teacher who was accused of inappropriate behavior with students and went through the whole thing. And it was completely, he was completely innocent, nothing untowards or anything. It was just a couple of girls who didn't like him and made up a story. That man never taught again. Yep. The accusation was made. He was done.

[43:45] Yeah. And now, now, I mean, now, I mean, just read the news, try on the TV. Oh, this person did this. Oh, then they're horrible. Do you have any proof? That's not important. They're horrible. I think this episode issues a lot of warnings about what happens when a government or news or media or whatever suddenly declares a person guilty. They declare a person a traitor. I think about it. We, oh, yeah, this person's a criminal or criminal, I guess, whatever to you and me, General Joe, Joe Schmo, I guess they'll get what they deserve. Right. They wouldn't have been declared a criminal, I guess, unless they really weren't. Oh, no, no, no. Things like that can happen. There is no innocent until proven guilty in the court of public opinion. Never, never, never. But you never know. You might lose your job. You might to go hold the highest office in the world. Yeah. Roll the dice. It really could go either way. Hello, Billy Bush.

[44:35] Jeff, I have a confession to make. Okay. You know, we rated this one pretty high. Yeah, we did. When we did this, this one is our number six. Did it really when we now i don't know where it landed at the very end this one in number six landed at number really i really liked this episode i gotta be honest i found myself very bored with this episode in the middle waiting for it to just get a get done i was shocked when urza was getting in his little knife fighting jacket and i was like there's like eight minutes i remember so much of this episode being londo belly aching over having a knife fight his friend and like that one scene between him and veer where he's like i have to do it it was 14 seconds yeah.

[45:21] I didn't get an answer to my question, and I think it's one we'll have to think about. Did Urza's actions here have anything to do with influencing Londo with his actions in Fall of Centauri Prime? Yeah, I don't think so. Or is it just a foreshadowing? Or is it nothing, and I'm trying to connect these two episodes and these two actions where there's really no connection whatsoever. I think at most it's, and we've gotten a number of these already, but it's a look at Londo doubling down on the dark side. He's just willingly taking another step. So he's so many chances to turn around and he just keeps, keeps refusing these chances. And Jeff, was it with you the other day? I do so many podcasts these days. I know. I forget what I'm talking about. I talked about, I think it was this episode and it was Sheridan because it was, uh, it was, it was last week. It was in the shadow of Zaha doom. I said, Sheridan was the hero. Yeah. Because of the choices he made. And you kind of guffawed at that. But you know what? Why is Londo ultimately a villain here? Because of the choices he made. Because of the choices he continues to make. He's continually making this choice. He's continually choosing the wrong side. And to build on what I said last week, the intent behind it was also, well, I got no choice. Like, there was no good intent. Like, it's just villain, villain.

[46:42] There was no good. in what he did. You know, Ben points out that it can't be, it could be a motif, but JMS does tend to stay away from referencing other writers' episodes. That's fair. You know uh or he he tends to stay away from like like going down he will reference them yes wow you know um did larry dittilio have any idea of where londo was going to go by the end of this i don't know what's his hey write an episode that shows londo doubling down on his that's that's my guess i think this episode did two things it did that and it just introduced sheridan to the idea of babylon 4 and kind of got you know planted the seed for when all that went down but Honestly, if this episode never existed, it would not make a single difference in Babylon 5. You told me before we came on, Mike, that this is generally considered to be among the worst episodes of season two. Yeah. I think we are seeing the difference between a first watch and a multiple watch. Because sitting where I am right now, I would agree it's not one of the better episodes of season two. No. The first time around, I thought it was great.

[47:47] It's interesting because so many times we got accused the other way where we were like like we were kind of crapping on really really good episodes geometry of shadows is a really good example but this time it was the opposite we're like this thing's great well it's you know you're seeing things that you don't know what you're seeing and and you're anticipating and you're building and you're trying to connect dots that that aren't necessarily there and so you're really just in it for the first time yeah you know so should we should we do the thing then and see how it how it does stack up yeah let's let's do the thing who's doing the thing this week jeff it's on me is it me it's you better you than me jeff you know uh the thing is our 100 completely accurate definitive ranking of season two babylon five watching it for the second time it's a different ranking than the first time because it's a different different criteria are being met we have 16 episodes on the list this is number 17 i'm just gonna go with the bottom chunk okay making a guess you could put it somewhere else uh i'm gonna start with number 10 number 10 is hunter prey 11 is acts of sacrifice 13 points of departure the season premiere 13 a distant star 14 revelations 15 spider in the web 16 the long dark jeff where do you place knives.

[49:00] In this section or somewhere else? This one's actually really easy for me to rank. There's one episode in this season that will stay where it is. It's going to be in the same spot I think it was after the first watch. We'll remain there in the second one. It's just an awful one. This is only slightly better. Brent, this episode is the new number 16 right below Spider in the Web and above the Long Dark. I don't know that I would have gone that far. I don't think this. Here's the thing. I don't know that this is a bad episode.

[49:31] I just, maybe I need to watch this one another time or two. I don't necessarily care to, but maybe I do because I just found it boring. I would rather, exactly. I would rather watch a spider in the web. That's what it comes down to that. We ranked spider in the web very low this time because we know everything in it kind of got blown up and put it set aside and it's like, Oh, it doesn't really, but it was an entertaining enough episode. This was not an entertaining episode. Yeah.

[49:57] You know, something i said um and i'm gonna stick by it and they've actually just said it over in the chat i said this the first time around you take this story and you move it to the front half of the season this episode would shine so much brighter than it does great and i i think that is still true i do not disagree with that idea but being right here in this midst it's just in a bad spot for the episode yeah um even if it was swapped with this and shadows of hadum still not a good spot for it and cat i think cat encapsulates my personal opinion of this really well i'm not a big fan of this episode i think maybe the sheridan subplot ruins it for me just found it really boring yeah it's a neat little it communicated with me in a neat way who cares but i don't know but but i don't know that it's necessarily a bad episode it's just right but it's just boring it's just like boring and i can see why people would think that and it doesn't mean as much as we thought it might exactly it is full of sound it's not even full of sound and fury it's full of some sound no fury still signifies nothing it's it'd be a good character building piece for a character that we're still getting to know yeah if you're watching this on a first time for example yeah we know londo at this point this is just more of londo's still picking really crappy well jeff that is going to do it for knives and stick a fork in it in this one because the knife is done.

[51:19] Next week episode on deck oh boy here's one to look forward to confessions and lamentations jeff you remember what your prediction for this episode was going to be i do but i actually also remember what i said about this one after we watched it and that was i never want to watch this episode again can we skip there might be a grand total of like three episodes i think we've said that about with babylon five yeah, This might be one of them. This is 100% one of them. I am dreading. I'm dreading it, and I'm looking forward to it, because when we watched it the first time, we were in the throes of the response to COVID. Listen, this is a good episode.

[51:58] It's just hard to watch. It's the Schindler's List type of an episode. Yeah. Great film. I only ever need to see it once. Yep, I'm good. Checked that box. My prediction, though, was I thought we were going to see another Ivanova like diplomat sort of an episode but this time there'd be some real stakes some of the non-aligned worlds would come to her accusing another non-aligned world of upsetting like some old ruins of some kind like a sacred site but it's actually a shadow like resting place and it would awaken awaken more shadows I wish that's the story we would have gotten yeah I'd watch that episode over what we're gonna watch what what did you think it was gonna be well Well, remember, I was all about R.O.L.M. here. All the way. So I said, I said, I said, Lando is going to apologize to Jakar. He's lamenting over his sins. He's confessing his sins to Jakar. Doesn't mean Jakar was going to forgive him right away, but he was going to like Lando's coming to his senses. And this is what's going to drive kind of like drive him and Jakar back together again. That is going to be a really good episode when that happens. Yes. At the end of season four. Yep. When they're sitting in Sheridan's office with their feet kicked up and they have confetti on their heads. Yeah. And they're talking about rice for whatever reason.

[53:13] Well, Brent, we're going to watch this thing next week. This is going to be a big one to watch, I think. I really hope to see all of you there and everyone else. I love that you hang out with us and watch these incredible episodes with us. We're going to do that in the same exact place as we are doing right now, so make sure that you are subscribed.

[53:32] Leave us a comment, a rating, a review, hit some stars. In fact, it was a call to action. Make sure you get some reviews in. We need to queue a couple up for some stuff that is going to be coming up here in the Bad Nerds franchise. So get those reviews in. We're franchised now. Why not? Why not, right? We got more than one show. I mean, we got a fleet going on here. It's building every day. But get those reviews in. We need to be ready. Also, share the show, man. Let other people find this great thing. And what better time to bring them in than Confessions and Lamentations. So, guys, until next week, this is going to be. Hey, Jeff. Yeah, Brent, what's up? Hey, Jeff, question. All this time we've known each other, what do you like to do to relax? I don't know. I like play drums, play video games, just kind of chill out a little bit. What do you do? Oh, I'm a big fan, Jeff. Take me out to the hollow suite. Take me out to the crowd. You don't stop singing. I will challenge you to the Mirago. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something.