No Surrender, No Retreat

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am the one who was,

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I am the one who will be.

Jeff: and we are watching Babylon five for the first time for you, the one who is.

Brent: We are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching this show for the very first time, 30 years too late. But we're taking that, that skill we've acquired by overanalyzing. Everything about an episode, searching for deep moral messages, but we're looking to see how Babylon five is doing it in its own unique way.

Jeff: Because this is a Babylon five podcast, we're gonna limit our references to Star Trek in this. And to do that, we play the rule of three. That means each one of us gets up to, and no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. No substitutions, exchanges a refund. Hey Brent,

Brent: Hey Jeff.

Jeff: we have a five star review.

Oh yes. This one is on good pods.

Brent: What's up? Good pod man. We, we hit, we hit Ottawa last week. Got good pods coming in this week. What's up? Good pods.

Jeff: I'm gonna butcher the name so I apologize, but gray end straighten. Says, what a great discussion. I love how you get caught up on all the right story hooks. Your predictions, though. Well, you'll see

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: short and to the point.

Brent: Like this episode, not where I expected it to end, but all right.

Jeff: It's like, and yes, and, okay. Thanks Gray. And that's

Brent: That works, man. I love. Hey, listen, you know what Gray Anne took the time to, to leave a review and that is the most important thing. Uh, long, short, they're all good. They all count the same.

Jeff: We love 'em all. Hey, we have another five star review. Oh yes. This one from an app I had never heard of before until I received this one through email. This one is from Padma

Brent: Pod your Rama,

Jeff: Padma.

Brent: what's up to all our pod your Rama listeners.

Jeff: Ah, well, Al Hefe says, holy chopped and diced Flon Batman. We found the last best hope for a great Babylon five podcast. We started a rewatch and looked for podcasts and found piles of spoiled spew until we found the, until zah of all podcasts. Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: I, I don't know when he wrote this. Uh, do you have any idea how long it's been? Because I know we, we maintain a backlog of these things, like something fierce,

Jeff: This was a while ago. This

Brent: was it?

Jeff: Most of these are from a while

Brent: so it was before we started the new intro

Jeff: Yes.

Brent: with the whole Intels, uh, we wouldn't, oh, if this, if was this so long ago, we wouldn't have known what it until Z meant

Jeff: Uhhuh in in, in fact.

Brent: for now then.

Jeff: In fact, I feel like almost everything in this outside of the spew, uh, was a spoiler for us. At the time. I don't think we even knew what

Brent: Would it have been a spoiler or would it have just been words that we couldn't possibly understand until we came upon it in the series?

Jeff: Everything in here would just have been gibberish to

Brent: I, oh, I gotta say though, the Spoo was my favorite line of the whole thing. I liked it, but the Spoo was the best part. Yeah.

Jeff: It was pretty great.

Brent: Uh, Jeff, you know what else is great?

Jeff: What's that?

Brent: This little game that we play at the end of the show where we like to predict what the next week's episode is gonna be about, based on title alone, never having seen the episode before, never looking at a thumbnail, and never reading a show description at all.

Jeff, this is the part where we look back at last week to see what we said this week was gonna be about this. Jeff, as you tell me, is the season, uh, namesake episode, no surrender, no retreat. I feel like these usually happen about three or four episodes earlier in the season. Here we are, episode 15. No surrender, no retreat.

Jeff, what did you say this episode was gonna be about?

Jeff: I thought I was gonna be war. Right? We're gonna go after the colonies. We didn't know. I didn't know exactly which one, but we're gonna go and get 'em. But what I was hoping for and put on the prediction was that the Hyperion would be one of the ships guarding, uh, the colony and that there'd be a run in with Captain Pierce.

Uh, got the, uh, colonies and warsh thing, right? Oh, we're scoring each other, right. So you can score me. I don't have to score me.

Brent: Uh, you know, I'm gonna, I'm still giving you full credit. Whether you guessed Hyperion or not, I'm giving you full credit. And by the way, we literally had the exact same prediction because it's what they telegraphed to us. They told us this is where we're going. We're gonna start making the offensive, it's gonna start at the colonies, then it'll go to Mars, and then it'll go to Earth.

And presumably we're starting at Proxima three cuz that's really the only colony we've heard about. I think there's one more out there we might have heard about here and there, but. And that's exactly what happened.

Jeff: Frankly if it wasn't that, uh, it'd be super weird. Like given everything that's happened and they went somewhere else, that Yeah. Wouldn't have made

Brent: Do you think there are other colonies out there besides Proxima three? And is it Orion seven? Is that the other one?

Jeff: I think so. Well in, and now for a word, I think they said that we are, there are 17 colonies and 14 different star systems, if I

Brent: How the hell do you remember that?

Jeff: I don't know. I

Brent: How do you know that?

Jeff: I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

Brent: Are you reading the scripts themselves? What are you doing?

Jeff: had a quick cross reference right there through my database module to determine, well, there was a graphic in everything on the

Brent: you pulled that up in real time, Jeff.

Jeff: Yeah. I didn't even look at my thing. It's just,

Brent: Oh my gosh.

Jeff: yeah, there's quite a few colonies I

Brent: Okay. All right. Well, Jeff, uh, Since we both predicted exactly what would happen, why don't you tell the folks out there at home, maybe they haven't seen the episode in a while, maybe they haven't even watched the episode ever. They're just listening to us, which awesome.

Um, tell them what this episode really was about and how correct we were.

Jeff: Brent, this, this episode begins on my 285th birthday. And guess who's back? Guess who showed up to my party? Veer. We haven't seen Veer in forever. He's back on Babylon five, and his hair is bigger than ever. He's been having nightmares, but he's still helping. He's been having nightmares, but he's still helping Londo.

However he can, in this case, running interference and covering the fact that Londo is trying to set up a meeting with Kar. He takes a message from Gar. He takes a message from Garabaldi who has some business in Cents Space. Then he gets back to work. Londo gets that meeting with Jaar. They meet in his quarters.

He starts insulting his room and, and then he catches himself. See, there's no yelling. There's no real bickering between the two of them. Now, Rondo's here, Rondo's here to offer an olive branch. He's convinced the Centara to throw in their lot with Sheridan, and he specifically says, Sheridan not Babylon five, but he wants the Nans to do the same.

In fact, he thinks that he and Jaar should issue a joint statement to show solidarity. In an almost amazing apology, Londo pours Kar a drink to pay back the drink that Kar bought for him before the war. But Kar isn't there yet. He holds back not throwing the drink in Lao's face or anything, but he, but he gently pours it back into the flask.

Dejected Londo quietly leaves what isn't quiet or dejected are the council chambers. Sheridan and Ivanova are laying it all out. Babylon five is taking the fight to earth. They're gonna liberate Proxima three, but they're going to need help. They ask the league worlds tear up their treaties with Earth and provide destroyers to protect the station.

But Sheridan is crystal clear. This fight is humanity's fight and humanity's fight alone. They all agree and we're off

Proxima three is secured even more securely than made Marion's Everlast chastity belt, but much like Robinhood, Sheridan seems to have the key. He's got an incredible strategy and he recognizes the names of some of the captains blockading the planet. The ones he doesn't recognize are likely loyal to President Clark.

Plan is sticky though. He wants to minimize casualties and he wants to give the earth crews every opportunity to surrender or ideally join the cause. Marcus has done some recon in it's time, a load to white stars and star theories are on route when they get there. The blockade is being commanded by Dr.

Bob Kelso, who is a Clark loyalist through and through. But Captain Mackey Mc Duggan in Sheridan, they go way back, but Kelso well. Okay. Captain Hall puts the pressure on and fires on the white star fleet. Sheridan does not want to destroy the earth vessels. So this isn't the one-sided affair you'd imagine it to be.

An exciting space battle happens while Sheridan leans on the relationships and the cause. Mackey on the Vesta and Captain Ecklund on the Furies hear Sheridan and they stand down. The Juno retreats flying through the jump gate and leaving the battle. This leaves Captain Kwakwa's nemesis the Pollocks and Hall's Harleys a damaged white star crashes into the Pollocks, destroying both of them, and then Kagawa surrenders the nemesis.

Sheridan gives Hall one last chance to surrender, which he refuses, but his crew led by Commander Levitt arrests him and he surrenders. The battle is won and Proxima three is free. Sheridan meets with the remaining captains. After much deliberation, Macie tells Sheridan what the Captains have decided his next steps.

Levitt will draw the Herles from the war altogether, keeping Hall under lock and key until the conflict is over. Eklund and the Furies will help defend Proxima three. While Mackey and Kagawa join the cause, it's not a victory Sheridan says, but a mission objective achieved. Sheridan shakes, Mackey's hand back on Babylon.

Five. Londo is hurt. He humbled himself and he tried to connect with Kar sitting alone at the bar. He takes a drink, then he sees another glass and a gloved hand reaching for it. It is Kar. He, he agrees to issuing the joint statement and then he takes a drink, technically sharing it with Londo. Brent, this might be the re-beginning of a beautiful rivalry.

Will you follow our legal order and share your initial reaction to no surrender, no retreat?

Brent: This was a great episode.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: This is just a great episode. This is exactly what I thought it would be. It went pretty much exactly the way I thought it would be, but it also surprised me in some places. And it surprised me how touching it was, particularly with the Lando and Jaar stuff. That was a, a masterful scene.

Masterful. That is a, a masterclass in acting between those two guys.

Jeff: Once again.

Brent: Phenomenal. And how long has it been, we, we were just talking about this. How long has it been since we've seen Kar and Lando in a, uh, in, in a room talking,

Jeff: Yeah. It's

Brent: since an elevator, right?

Jeff: Uhhuh

Brent: Like, uh, it's just so good.

Jeff: and to be civil. It's been since the coming of shadows in the early second season.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: So long.

Brent: Yep. Yeah. And, uh, you know, honestly, the, the crux of this whole episode is in, that, is in that story for me. Um, but the whole Sheridan stuff, I mean, he gets his people, they go out, they're, they're flying. And of course he meets people that he knows and there's some people he doesn't know. And he can talk with these guys and he can stand up to 'em and he can tell 'em what's what.

And he can reason with them and he knows why they're there. And he can speak to them on that level. He can do something that perhaps no one else in the galaxy could do. If a Mbar was the captain of that ship, having that conversation, it would not have worked. If it was a Sonari, if it was a Narn, if it was anybody else, okay.

Maybe, maybe Sinclair if he was still there. You know what I mean? But it had to be a human who was from Earth Force and signed on and had that same, uh, you know, background, uh, and to result in, uh, winning Proxima three, saving them. And having, and I, this was the piece I didn't expect to have those people he was fighting against, at least some of them turn around and join the fleet.

So good. So good. Jeff, what'd you think?

Jeff: I mean two words Yeah. Like, oh my God, I loved every minute of this episode. It was exciting. The space battle was fun. It wasn't, it wasn't like when Dalen and her white star fleet fought the drop and it was like, this stuff doesn't make sense. Why are they like everything that happened made sense.

What I loved too is at one point I was like, we've seen these white stars take down shadow ships. How are they not just cutting through these vessels like, you know, a hot knife through butter and then it hit where it's like Sheridan doesn't wanna blow 'em up. It's gonna make

Brent: he's, he's doing, he's doing more to disable them than anything.

Jeff: And just trying to get 'em to a point where they can have that conversation, they can talk and they can do that.

It was so good. And I agree. While, while that was all great. And it was amazing, and it was kind of, God, I don't want to, I don't, I'm gonna say paint by numbers, but that sounds like I'm, I'm, I'm making light of it. It wasn't that at all, but it was a space battle, right, to free, a liberated thing. And it was great.

The magic in this episode is Londo and Kar. The way that they, that that scene, like you said, was amazing. And even just that short scene at the end where Kar agreed to sign the statement was so powerful.

Brent: I didn't think we would get that scene. I knew we were going to get that scene. I did not know it would be in this episode. I just thought it'd be in a different episode, but I was glad it happened in this scene, in this

Jeff: I was thinking about that a little bit. How, you know, last week we were talking about how the menari civil war didn't have the weight, the danger or the impact we thought it would. I agree with this as well. It would've been, I, I think, I think, you know, armchair quarterbacking this whole thing that would've been more powerful if it happened in episode or two later.

But I just, this, this moment in the season feels so compressed. And I can't help but wonder if, I don't know, just the, we had those kind of weird step paste placed, uh, episodes that didn't make sense to us, and now we're like, go, go, go, go, go. I just don't know if something happened in the production of the show.

I mean, I, I've heard the rumor that it got canceled,

Brent: Yeah. I've heard this. We know we both know this, so go ahead and

Jeff: Yeah. So the, the show actually got canceled and he was gonna have to like, wrap the story up here in season four. And then partway through, uh, t n T picked them up and then we were gonna get a fifth season. So he had to kind of back his way into that.

Brent: I heard, I heard that it was, um, They had actually got, like, they got canceled. And so j m s basically squished his plan for season four and season five into season four, like, which makes me assume that we had it gone the way he had planned, the lon shadow thing would've lasted much longer. And then what we've had over the last like 10, 15 up, like by the time we get to the end of the season, that last 10, 15 episodes, this thing we're like, this is a little weird.

It's a little slow. And then there's this big thing, this would've been stretched out over season five, and this would, wherever they end at season four is where they were going to end the show. Um, and then as they finished, sh what I hear is as they finished shooting it, t n t picked them up. And so he had to basically like come up with some new stuff for season five or like, it's the residual stuff that he had for season five is, that's the way I understand it.

Um, Do we want to ask people to clarify for us one way or the other? Yeah. Don't clarify for us guys. Just let us live in mystery. We'll talk about that in like 30 episodes,

Jeff: yeah, yeah. Here pretty quick. We'll, we can, we can dive into all of that stuff, but yeah. Feel it, it, it feels compressed, but there was, it was still excellently done.

Brent: I think I like it better this way. To be honest with you though, Jeff, like if the whole season was spread out like the last like five or six episodes had been, it would've just, it would've felt a little more like a slog. Like I get those last five, six episodes why they're needed, why they're necessary, and the way that they are.

But if it gives us this compressed thing like we got at the beginning of the season with the bolon shadow stuff, I'm all for it, man. I'm all for it. It, it, it, it. I don't wanna say it makes for a better story because I, here's the thing, like this is the way that that TV happens now is a lot of times, this is how they do it.

But they don't have those episodes prior. Inserting all that information, you know, so to do this thing where you have, Hey, slow episodes, slow, slow, slow, slow, slow. Set it up, set it up, set up, and then bam. Like that's cool. I think it's, it's one of the reasons why I think we liked the end of Deep Space Nine so much

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: they seated for six and a half seasons, and then 10 episodes are like, bam, let's just do it.

Jeff: One thing that we, I, I only mentioned briefly in the recap, but happened in here. Was there, there's a couple things with Garabaldi in this one, both in the conversation with Veer and then near the end of the episode that I think were pretty, uh, pretty important moments. Like what business does Garabaldi have in Centara space?

Thought that was interesting. And then he's leaving, he got on a transport with a one-way ticket to Mars.

Brent: That's what he says. That's what he says. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. Uh, Vera, can we talk about Vera? You mentioned in your recap, man, his hair is bigger, but not only is it bigger, it's swooped back.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Now what it reminds me of, Jeff, and I was trying to find a picture, I couldn't, and it would've made a difference for the audio folks out there, so I'll just describe it anyway.

You've seen deer crossing signs on the road before, right? Where it's the deers crossing and then they're like, they have the antlers that are just sticking straight up. There are some signs out there and I, you know where I really noticed these was overseas, like I noticed it like in Korea. Uh, was it Korea?

I don't know, maybe another country, but I've seen them here in the States too. But the, the antlers, instead of being like straight up, they're kinda like swooped back

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: and it makes the deer look like he's like racing forward. And it just, it looks really funny to me. But that's what this reminds me of. Like his hair is like swooped back, um, with Veer.

So, and the other thing I know, like Veer clearly has lost a lot of weight. Steven first has clearly lost a lot of weight, but the picture and image they're using of him in the intro is still him, like prior to his weight loss.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: So, and it's, that really is like a, like a, a startling contrast when you look at the two up, I'm like, whoa.

Jeff: He just looks more, uh, gosh, grown up now. Like, I mean that sounds patronizing, but like he was, he was, you know, sleeping, his hair was a little bit must, but he got up and even when he was talking with Garabaldi, he just, he wasn't that kind of squirrely nervous. I mean, he had a little nervousness to him, but dramatically more confident in what he was doing and carrying himself.

Brent: well, do you remember when we saw Veer step out from behind the curtain in war without end? Right after Londo and Jaar killed each other, and he just steps out. His head is up, his shoulders are back, he's looking down his nose and he bends down and picks up the emperor's crest, crown, whatever thing it is.

And, uh, just holds it there. And it's like, that's a different veer. So if we're seeing him turn into that veer, I'm here for it.

Jeff: Yeah, I agree.

Brent: You 

Jeff: the, uh 

Brent: Oh, I was gonna say, you know what else I noticed in this episode? The new jackets that Devonna and Sheridan are wearing.

Jeff: Yeah, they had like those kind of sash things for the longest time, and now they got these really

Brent: that's a jacket. Yeah. Like, are these like battle jackets? Like, Hey, we're going to war, so let's get this new thing. Like, did they stand there for the mbar, Seamster seamstresses and let them, did did anybody get pokes?

You know, 

Jeff: Dylan sends a 

Brent: have one? Cause he wasn't gonna go stand there again.

Jeff: Dylan sends a message across, Hey, I need you to go to the Taylors and, uh, I, I have another gift for you. Or maybe she didn't, didn't need to, maybe she already had their measurements on file.

Brent: Mm-hmm. Oh,

Jeff: if, if Franklin's still doing physicals and telling Ivanova that she needs to put on weight, then um, you know, she could, she could just send that information across.

Brent: Right, right. Uh, I'll tell you the other thing I noticed in this episode, and the, and this is it for the, whatever I dig the revamped set of the war room.

Jeff: For the voice of resistance kind of

Brent: Yeah, yeah. Well, no, no. It wasn't even the voice of the resistance. It, it's where they were doing the meeting at the beginning of the episode

Jeff: Oh, yeah.

Brent: like, and I mean, it might have actually been the council chambers.

They were bringing something to council. I'm not sure what it was, but it was this revamped set that they had. And like the, it opened with them like wheeling in clear chalkboards with their battle planes on it, and. Different things like that. I was like, this looks cool, man.

Jeff: Yeah, I feel like they've dressed up a couple of the sets. We saw that, um, in the rumors, bargains and lies the backdrop to the council chambers that Sheridan was standing in front of, and a couple other things. They're, they're, and then the voice of the resistance studio is, has been kind of repurposed.

It's pretty cool.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: It was kind of cool when they were doing the battle planning and those Sheridan said, said the thing.

Brent: He did the thing.

Jeff: No surrender, no retreat.

Brent: That's the thing. You did it.

Jeff: It's always, always fun. When the band does that.

Brent: my note is, hey, he said the thing.

Jeff: It's mine too. It's L. He said the thing, oh, a couple weeks ago I said, Hey, whatever happened to that David Corwin guy they were trying to get, and we got him. We got him back.

Brent: got him back. But dude, something's up with him.

Jeff: You think

Brent: Do I think, did you see the look he was given to other people around the room? Did you miss

Jeff: I didn't pick up on this at all?

Brent: Oh, Jeff. Yeah. So, so he's up there and, and you know, he, the first time we see him, he's launching out the, the, the delta fur. The delta furries. The star furries.

Right. He's launching 'em out and he turns around and, and he says to Ivanova, he says, uh, uh, uh, something to the effect of like, so what are we gonna do? Ivanova gives him instructions. He's like, so we don't trust anybody anymore. And she go, what? What? She says, she says, no, trust, Ivanova, trust yourself.

Shoot everyone else or anyone else, shoot 'em, whatever she says. Right? Um, and then she walks away and he gives this look to a dude across the room where they're like, this is not okay. We're gonna, I'm telling you, he's, he's planning a mutiny from within or something. Something's up with Corin and I don't know what it is, but I don't think it's good.

Jeff: I didn't pick up on that. What I did pick up on though is that he and some of the other guys in C N C got really short shrifted on the uniforms. Like they're stuck with these horrible gray and black kind of colorless things. May, if he's gonna mut me, it should be over that.

Brent: Well that, can they join up with the security guys who have like the green jumpsuit thing or whatever that is?

Jeff: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle thing. Get 'em that at least.

Brent: yeah. Right.

Jeff: Yeah. Those are terrible. But yeah, I, I might, I might actually go back and watch some of those scenes cause I did not pick up on

Brent: Go do, go do it And, and I'd be curious like shoot me a text when you do, cuz I'm curious what you think that that's gonna be. But what was great, the best part about this whole scene, we finally get a classic ivanova line that has been missing for so long.

Jeff: For like three seasons.

Brent: Right, right. It's great. Trust ivanova. Trust yourself.

Anyone else? Shoot 'em.

Jeff: I thought it was fascinating. There was the little bit with Franklin in there and Sheridan wants him to get the cold storage telepaths ready for something.

Brent: I have no idea what that's about.

Jeff: Yeah.

I. 

Brent: idea.

Jeff: I had a theory a while ago that Earth has a shadow ship in hiding that they, you know, they held onto or whatever. And so maybe Sheridan knows this and he wants to get some telepaths ready to take it down or something.

I don't know. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but

Brent: Yeah. I dunno. He, yeah, he's clearly got something he's not telling us just yet, and Yeah, I have no idea.

Jeff: Yeah. So the battle stuff happened. That was, uh, I don't know if there's any, I mean, it's what I said, that's everything that

happened. 

Brent: you know what I thought was interesting, watching the earth ships, there's the forward part of the ship where the battlements and stuff come out, and then right behind, that's the section that rotates, the section that rotates is the part that had to have the bridge.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Because that's where people had gravity, right?

Like I just, I was just, I was sitting there trying to picture like, you're on the bridge, but your bridge is spinning it as you go around,

Jeff: Well, I thought too, like it's a very small percentage or portion of the ship that rotates and like, is that all just like ammo and engines and stuff, or what is that?

Brent: yeah, yeah. So I, I mean the, the best part of the whole thing was watching how the battle unfolded. You had Captain Geico there who was gonna fulfill his mission no matter what.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: We're gonna shoot him, we're gonna take him out. A couple of 'em were like, yeah, I'm not firing on them yet. We're not doing that.

This is, this is not what we're here for. And Mackey, I like that, that is a name, you know, old buddies like, Hey listen, these guys are Earth's jurisdiction and we're just here. And Sheridan like, just says, dude, that's bs and you know it. And he calls everybody out on it. Right. And then, uh, Geico calls over to dude and he is like, Hey, your sh your, she, Hey, you dude, back there.

I give you a field promotion. Take him out. And, you know, he very, very briefly takes command to the ship. And then people are like, no, we're gonna stick with our captain,

Jeff: this is a no-go.

Brent: right. Um, and then we go back to the other one where he's like, no, we're gonna finish this. We're gonna die trying. And, and the commander's like, no, you're not.

We're done. We're we're done. Um,

Jeff: and again, the crew is like, yeah, you're right. We're done. This is, I think what I got out of that was we'll call 'em the Clark loyalists or whatever are pretty small in number and for the most part you just have a lot of soldiers that are just kind of,

Brent: Just doing their thing. Just, I mean, they're, they're following orders and I love the line. He is like, listen, if you follow an illegal order, then you are an accomplice to war crimes.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: You are guilty of committing war crimes. Soldiers are expected to make their own choice in those situations, you know? Um,

Jeff: It sounds like Mackey was an instructor at the academy and he talked some about like, and he talked some about like combat ethics and things like that. It was really smart to Sheridan to leverage that, but it also makes me wonder a little bit that if it wasn't Mackey there, you know, I mean I, he would obviously have an angle with anybody that he knew, but I thought this was such a great angle of just the ethics of combat and to be able to leverage that with the guy you learned it from.

Because I think the actor in that scene too is great. He just had that moment like sitting in the chair, which by the way, like the arms of those bridge chairs are so uncomfortably

Brent: the one, the one with Captain Geico. I was like, yeah, dude, he's, that is not comfy

Jeff: He's either a very, very small person or those chairs are made for somebody else.

Brent: Right?

Jeff: But Mackey's sitting in his, and he is just like, you can see that on his face where he is just like, God, you're right man. You're right. And what have we done?

Brent: Mm-hmm. And what am I getting ready to have to do? Because if I'm wrong, this is not gonna go well for anybody. Um, yeah. But it turns out, and they said okay, so, so just to recap, some stayed behind it, proxima to, to keep them liberated. Right. To protect them in case clerk sends anybody else. Some went off to space dock and just, they're withdrawing.

We're not gonna do anything, um, presumably to go back to Clark or just to stay neutral.

Jeff: I think to stay neutral, it sounded like she's gonna take off, go somewhere else to get fixed up, stay neutral, and just keep Captain Hall as a prisoner. Just be over here keeping this guy as a war crim, a potential war criminal.

Brent: And wait, wait to see which side wins before coming

Jeff: Yeah. Who am I gonna turn him in, or do I need to run away?

Brent: right. Right. Um, and she's got, I mean, listen, that only works though if you have the crew behind you.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: You know what I mean? Uh, but then Mackey and a couple of others, no, they're joining up with the fight, which I thought was really cool. I will say there was one name that I did not hear that I fully was thinking we were gonna hear Taka.

Shima.

Jeff: Oh, that would've been so cool. Yeah,

Brent: Even, even if we didn't see her on screen, if we just got the name drop, that would've been cool.

Jeff: Prep the star theories. Commander Tashima. Boom. There you go.

Brent: Oh, no, no. But here she would've been a captain. She would've been a captain who had her own command, you know, Taka, Shima, Takahe's gonna join us with you, or Toshima was going out, doing whatever.

Jeff: Or whatever.

Brent: fully expected her to, uh, um, uh, to, to be name dropped there. But yeah, other than that, Jeff, I mean, you're right.

The, uh, the battle happened and it was visually so

Jeff: Looks great. Looks so

Brent: 1997 effects are getting better around the, around television as a whole. And I, I mean, for a show that had such a small budget, like they did phenomenal work with this.

Jeff: did. Really did.

Brent: You know what it never looked like, to me, it never looked like everything was cgi and it never looked like it was models.

You know, like when you watch Star Trek sometimes it's just models. Not just Star Trek, Dr. Hu, star Wars. It, it, it's models and it looks like models. You know? Uh, that's, and I, I know that everything was cg, but you know how a lot of times when you see CG stuff, it looks cg,

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: this looks, this hell's up today.

And I know that we're watching the remastered versions, but these hold up today, it was so good.

Jeff: It's all about lighting. Cause I think about Battlestar Galactica, the original, when that was so clearly models, but you can look at other ones. Buck Rodgers was another one that was really clearly, I. Models, but some of the cinematic stuff, star Wars know things that were models looked, looked amazing and they looked to scale that all and it's all lighting that happens, but it's not with the cgi also the way they programmed the lighting into it is a big part of it.

Cuz like the early Babylon five, like season one stuff, they just looked like polygons on a screen. They, they weren't able to do, you know, computer graphic lighting and, and now they are, they have that, that gorgeous scene I brought up a couple times at the sunset and stuff. Like they're really figuring that stuff out and it looks really

Brent: Yeah. So good. Solando and Kar.

Jeff: It started out so great with Londo knocking on the door and jaar just, just waiting. Just, you know. Yeah. I'm just gonna let your ring a couple times, just see what happens.

Brent: Well, to to back up even further, I didn't put this together. This didn't cross my mind until this episode. Kar is back to Ambassador Jaar.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: He's not Citizen Jaar anymore. He's Ambassador Jaar. I hadn't even thought about that. Also, and I know there was a very small conversation about this, but who's in government?

Who's in charge of the government back in Narn

Jeff: No idea. No

Brent: You know, and, and the thing is like they tried to make Jaar the leader of the government there, but he declined. Right?

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: Jaar was still the sole surviving member of the Kari. Like did they reform the Kari? Have they had like, just, well, what are you gonna do?

If Jaar says no, then what are you gonna do? But he's returned as Ambassador Kar.

Jeff: I feel like both the Nain and Sonari we got, we got left with pretty massive cliff hangers a long time ago.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: We got Regent emperor, McKey, joker guy with the controller keeper thing on him. And then we had the whole like, you're gonna be in charge of us. You're the, you're the supreme leader. No, I'm not. Okay, what?

What now, what Now?

So they start talking and Londo catches himself, right? How quickly we fall into familiar patterns. Oh, this was peak. This was such great, I I was gonna say it's peak ldo, but peak ldo is, you know, forgot how to dance and is dating a

former slave. But this was like peak enlightened and wise londo with incredible self-awareness.

Brent: He's finally learned, maybe too little, too late, but he's finally, finally got it. He's come back to himself, you know, uh, and you know, he come in and the one thing I was really disappointed that Londo never did, and it wouldn't have done any good in the moment, but Londo never looked at Kar and said, I'm sorry I was wrong.

I should not have done that. Kar would've sloughed it off. Kar might have even punched him. If he'd said it, he should have said it.

Jeff: Needs to be said.

Brent: It needs to be said and, and I'm going to say that going back to saying something else I've said about Kar before in the past, wado comes in here extending the olive branch. one point he even defense, I'm Patriot and so are you. I'm just doing what I think is best for my world. But I crossed a line and it was too much. And that is not what is best for our world. He needs to say, he just didn't say it. But Kar through this whole thing keeps slapping away this olive branch that Londo is trying to extend.

I get it. I understand why. I really do. I understand that it's justified. I've said before, I'll say it again, hanging onto bitterness. The way that Kar is hanging onto it is like drinking poison while expecting the other person to die. This is going to eat Kar up and he is never gonna be able to get to a spot where he is free to live and free to be if he's hanging onto this the entire time.

And I hope for Ja Car's sake that he can get over it, which is why I was so glad to see that final scene, which is a step in the right direction. It's the first step I really thought, by the way, Jeff, this, this is going to be something that plays out, right, because we've seen the end, we've seen where Jaar and Lando end.

What did, what did Londo say when Jaar stepped out from behind the, the screen right before he killed him?

Jeff: my old friend.

Brent: My old friend. So we know that they come back together at some point. This is where we are. And now it's interesting the journey of how do we get there that's gonna this, I'm excited for this particular story to really solidify the hype that we have seen about what happens when you put Lando and Jaar in a room together. You know? Cuz frankly we haven't seen it a lot. A very small portion of this se of this series so far.

Jeff: And it's been incredible every single time. But, you know, I'll say in defensive Kar though, I think for him, cuz it really came to pass, like the, the big gesture was when he poured the drink back into the flask and set it down. But the, the moment that set that up, when, when Londo said, I never, I never thanked you for what you did.

That, you know, allowed, allowed me to save my people. That also allowed you to save yours. And so, Thank you. And Orlando's like, or Kars, like, I don't want your thanks.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: Lao's. Like, well, it's there, it's there for you. He's like, I don't, I don't, I don't care. I don't want it. But it made me think about how, uh, naive it would've been for Kar to have been like, you know what, Londo, you're right.

You're welcome and thank you for the offer of a drink. I'm gonna drink and let's do this together. Kar has so much healing still to do, and I think that forgiveness, offering forgiveness is hard to do. It's easy to do. If you're just like, ah, it's cool. Don't worry about it. Yeah, you got caught in a bad way and a couple million people died, you know, whatever it, who hasn't been there before.

But to truly forgive, you gotta work through it. And I think, you know, one of the last times, I think the last time we saw them together before Sheridan had them in the room was Jaar looking at him in the Zocalo and saying, pray that we never notice each other again.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: from that to him. I kept waiting for him to take that drink and throw it in lon do's face.

The fact he didn't do that basically said, I'm not ready to forgive you, but I'm ready to have that thought of forgiveness introduced into my head. And I think that's a huge step.

Brent: Well, and I mean, it's even a huge step just to be able to sit in a room and talk without killing him.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: You know what I mean? 

Jeff: just ripping. 

Brent: is, we would all understand. Why he would do it if that's what he chose to do.

Jeff: I kept watching, waiting for him to throw the drink and get angry and go, and I kept, and in my head I'm like, I'm preparing the reaction where I'm just like, I would be broken. I would be sad, I would be furious, but I also would completely understand, and I couldn't blame him for doing that. I mean, hey, how's.

How's the eye like at that moment? Jaar stands up and rips Lao's head off of his body. How's your head, dude? Because that's how my eye is. But I thought it was powerful what he said it sees.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: Cause that's what he said about it when he had it plucked out. You know, your eye is like, well, now I can truly see.

Brent: Yeah. I'm still gonna be so mad if we don't get them using that eyeball for something, 

Jeff: Yeah. 

Brent: you know.

Jeff: It's very much set up for it. I also liked when Londo was kind of apologized, do, going through his apology, he said that it was a word like I I I d I became the enemy because I, I couldn't see who the enemy was anymore, and it was a word that destroyed our worlds. Wow. It's heavy stuff. But did you catch when Senten, when he said that he got the Sentara to throw their support in, he specifically said to support Sheridan.

Like, I had a little Michael Garabaldi here on my shoulders saying, did you hear that? Did you hear that? That was, they're, they're following Sheridan

Brent: Yep. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry, this is, we said before we came on Mike's night, a lot of this episode's gonna be like, yep, they sure did.

Jeff: that happened.

Brent: but because you know where we are, Jeff, we never got an end of this episode. This episode is incomplete. You know, now you could say that there is actually like a beginning, middle, and end with the way that the proc, because the proxima three story came to an end, but all of this other stuff is still happening.

And I'm like, yeah, I want to, um, mark that down in my brain.

Jeff: The Lando Kar story started and the Garabaldi story started at the end of this episode.

Brent: Yeah. And I tell you, I am super interested in the Garabaldi thing. I, I've got to know what happened to him when he was in that cyco room. I've got to know when he looked in that mirror and something happened where he got activated or, or something happened and best in on this whole thing. Like, I've got to know.

And so help me. If you are right about Eckers being ster, I am gonna ja you somebody put that on a t-shirt.

Jeff: Right. I will kar you. But yeah, so the whole thing kind of, uh, kind of wraps up when the Alando Kar thing and on the overall story of stuff was they agreed to sign the statement, but Jaar was very clear that they would not sign on the same page. You

Brent: Which, which was, which was, honestly, that was more of a laugh to me than anything. You know, like he came, he came and said yes. He's like, I'll do it, but not on the same page. Like, still a little childish there, but, got it. Good enough. Close,

Jeff: I feel like it's literally just him saying, I hear you. I see you. I'm taking a step towards you, but we're not there yet.

Brent: and it's the right thing to do,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: but I'm still gonna be mad at you. And so we're that, we're, we're moving in that direction and I, I really, really appreciated it.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: Well, Jeff, with that, I think we have actually come to that part of the show where it is time to boil it all down and see what deep moral messages might be lurking underneath the surface of this episode.

Is it holding up a mirror to society? Is it giving us hope that we can be better in the future, but at the same time, how is it doing it in its own unique Babylon five way? Jeff, you're gonna do that by rating this episode on a scale of zero to five Delta Fury smashing together the Star Trek and the Babylon five ness, and you're gonna tell us just how strong that message is and how Babylon five it was delivered.

Jeff: Superpowers are weird things

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: like they seem all amazing and cool and everybody wants one, but people don't generally understand, like you have to know how to use them to really benefit from them.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: And there's a superpower that every single one of us has, and that's superpower is the power to apologize.

Everybody messes up. In, in this example, in Babylon five, the mess up was huge. Like Londo destroyed the galaxy and almost genocided an entire race.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: But it's not always huge stuff that we mess up on. And like Londo said, sometimes that difference is just, just a word to shift this to us. Now, today, I think of Alexander Pope who said to air is human, but the full, we all know that quote, right?

Oh, to air is human. But the full quote from his essay on criticism was written in 1711. But the full quote says to air is human to forgive. Divine

Brent: Yep.

Jeff: and forgiveness is the best. But more often than not, you need the superpower of the apology to get to the forgiveness. There's a right way and there's a whole lot of not right ways to apologize.

Like saying you're sorry and just leaving it at that. That's not. That's not good. You and I have talked about apologies on this podcast before,

but I'm gonna sh 

Brent: we train our children

Jeff: exactly, and that's what I wanna do real quick is share the, my four step formula to an effective apology. I shared this shameless plug here, but I shared this in the 75th episode of the Star Fleet Leadership Academy.

When I watched Enterprise Kamar, which you might know better as the Nicholas Cage Film Con Air, but, uh, either way, but the steps to a good apology are say you're sorry, like, start there. Express remorse for the specific thing that happened. Two, admit and own responsibility. Three, ask how or describe how you're gonna make it right and then, and commit to not doing it again.

And the most important part of it all is to actually mean it. When you say it,

Brent: Yep.

Jeff: Londo came so close, so close in this one. He didn't outright say he was sorry, and that was a huge misstep for him, like you said. But he did offer thanks to him. He was remorseful. He was clear that what happened was his fault.

He took responsibility. He said he hoped to be better and not let it happen again. And he meant it. He clearly meant it. And I think the, I think that because he meant it, that's why Jaar joined him at the bar and ultimately agreed to issue the joint statement.

Brent: Yep.

Jeff: They're not done. Things aren't fixed between them.

But because Lando offered a mostly sincere and real apology, they're in the same statement. Just not on the same page. Right? When a few episodes ago, like Jaar was gonna straight up murder him. Another thing in this one that I'm stuck, another one in this one that I've noticed a theme throughout. Is that Lando says to Kar, we're Patriots, right?

Tried to pull that line out. But there's a lot of patriotism in this episode. Sheridan's patriotism, not for a person, but for the idea and the promise of earth. Garabaldi expressed his patriotism to that same thing, to veer all of the other captains, including Hall had patriotism in one way or another.

Patriotism is one thing, but what you do with it is an entirely different story. Sheridan chose to use it to try and write the many wrongs that were done, and to find the most peaceful solution to the Proxima three problem. The Captain Hall used patriotism to try and gun Sheridan and Crew down and kill refugees and innocent civilians, both using patriotism as their motivation.

Very different outcomes. If Land's Apology was a moral for us, a lesson to us. This theme, this theme, patriotism is the one holding up a mirror to our society right here today. And right now, it's one thing to feel patriotic. It's okay to feel patriotic, but what are you doing with it? Are you hurting other people?

Are you working to take away their most basic rights? Or are you building community and coming together on complex challenges to make this world and this life just even a little more tolerable for everybody? Before we went on, Mike, I think you said that you had some Star Trek messages on this one. So I've got my Delta Fear Fury rating, ready to go, but I want to hear what your thoughts were before I fi kind of give the final, final

Brent: U usually you get, usually the way we do this is you give the rating and then the other person goes, all right, I'm gonna stump for why you should change that. Um, but you're gonna have me, you're gonna have me do this before to see if I can't influence the rating

Jeff: yeah, you prefaced. You told me this was coming, so I'm

gonna 

Brent: I believe my exact words were, I don't think you have anything cuz I got something.

Um, and I'm glad, I'm glad to, to hear that. It, it, it's all phenomenal. Um, if I could add one thing, not to you, the way you do it, just the way that we teach our kids, we actually teach them to say the words, will you forgive me?

Jeff: I love that piece.

Brent: is a power in saying the words, will you forgive me? Because it forces the other person to either say, no, I do not forgive you and I don't care who you are.

That sticks in your mouth. Like, it, it, that will stick in your mouth. And you have to be very deliberate to say, no, I do not forgive you.

Jeff: We saw that with Kar and Dalen last season when Dalen freaked out that, yeah, we, we knew this was coming. We knew it was happening. We held it from you, Jaar. I want your forgiveness. And he's like, no, I'm not

there. 

Brent: forgive. I'm not there yet. You know, um, a a or to make the other person go, yes, I forgive you. And there's a, there's this, there's power in the words. You know, and I'm, I'm so glad to the people who, who did the premarital class for my wife and I before we got married, and taught us to do that with each other.

And it has been phenomenal for our marriage whenever conflict arises, because conflicts arise between anybody who's in relationship, uh, to be able to go, I'm sorry I did that to the steps you said, own it. Admit what you did, tell 'em you're not, you know, try, promise that you're not gonna do it again. Try to not do it again and ask for forgiveness.

Ask for forgiveness anyway. Uh, here's the thing, and I, I talked about this a little bit, so I'll try to be brief with it. This, this Star Trek message to me, Jeff, only works because we know the end of the story, and it's the exact same thing you pulled out with Londo and Kar. I talked about it earlier because we know that Londo and Kar will wind up working together. That my old friend Ja car. Right? Because we know that that's where it's gonna go.

What we see here at the outset is setting up this journey of how to get there. And this sets up an interesting question that will be explored. We know it has to be because of how it's going to end and it's gonna explore it over the next season in a little bit of extra change. You know, how can two people who have so much bad blood between them legitimately so ever get over their issues and learn to work together?

Say that again. How can two people who have so much bad blood learn to get over their issues and learn to work together? And we know that they're going to do it, but the how is what's left is the question. To you and me as the viewer right now, first time, we don't know how they're gonna get there. We just know that they're gonna get there and it makes this infinitely more interesting to watch than not knowing if they're gonna get there or not.

Right Jeff? That is, that is the fundamental Star Trek message that we can set aside our differences and come together. We don't have to be best friends, but we can, we can, in spite of our differences still work together. That's, that's the core of Star Trek from Gene Roddenberry from episode one. That is the core. Go all the way back to balance of power. Go to the core mite maneuver, go to all of those, you know, maybe even the cage. You could probably pull it out there. But Jeff, here's the thing. The other side of Delta Fury is how Babylon five does it do it. We have said before, we've heard it said, and we'll say it again. If the, if Star Trek is representative of how things should be in the future or how things will be in the future, the great hope that we can get there, Babylon five is the map of how to get there and the fact that we know we're gonna get there.

What's interesting about this is the how, this is the quintessential Star Trek message literally being done in the Babylon five way, which that alone to me is five Delta furries, and I don't know how you go any lower than that, but Jeff, you get to do it based on your rating and ranking and I just stumped for why I think it should be all the way through.

Jeff: Well, I'll tell you.

I'll tell you. 

Brent: if can 

Jeff: I'll tell you how you give it less. You're a crazy person that no one should ever listen to. This is a five Delta theory episode.

Brent: I like it. I like it. Well,

Jeff: Well, Brent, we're creating the absolute 100% definitive and objectively correct ranking of all the episodes in the fourth season of Babylon. Five. Our current top five, uh, if you're keeping score at home, we've got into the fire, the long night atonement, whatever happened to Mr.

Garabaldi, and then moments of transition. Brent, where do you put No surrender,

Brent: All right. This is going to be a top three episode. The question to me is, where is it top three? Do we, I'm trying to remember what Long night happened, what happened with Long Night, uh, because I know that into the fire, it was where we got the finale of the whole VLAN shadow thing, which was really awesome. Um, the long night was Kar breaking the chains, going all Sampson on everything. Uh, yeah. I'm. I am thinking this is our new number two, and it's possible it could be number one. It's possible I like this more than I do into the fire, but I can't say that because this is the beginning and not the end. But this was such a well done episode all the way through. I'm thinking number two over the long nights.

Jeff: that's a bold ranking. And even if I wanted to argue with you, I couldn't

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: that's, uh, that's how it works.

Brent: that where Well, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I haven't have, it's not final

Jeff: Oh, okay. Okay.

Brent: know, I'm, I'm thinking about it. It, I think it's better than Atonement. I like Atonement a lot. I definitely think it's better than Mr. Garabaldi. I think it's better than moments of transition, um, this is, this where, whereas as Delta furries is really has nothing to do with how much we enjoyed the episode.

It has to do with the message and how it was delivered. This is how much we enjoyed the episode. And when I sit back and think of what episodes have I enjoyed this season, I, I think I enjoyed into the fire more. I don't know that I enjoyed a long night more. I'm gonna put this in number two, Jeff. Yeah. Locking it in. Final answer. Number two, immutable. A hundred percent accurate except for that one spot in the season four wrap up that we'll do, but

Jeff: Yeah, immutable until it's not.

Brent: but it is definitive.

Jeff: It is. And objectively correct. Well, that's it for no surrender, no retreat. Next week, we are watching the exercise of Vital Powers for the first time. This is our prediction game that we play every week where we know the title of the next episode. We don't look ahead anything, and we'd like to guess what it's going to be about.

So, Brent, what do you think the exercise of Vital Powers is going to be about?

Brent: Um, I don't, I mean, like, on on one level it's okay. What's the next colony? I don't think we're going to Mars yet. I, we're, we're, it's, it's too early to hit Mars. We're not gonna, we're not gonna release one colony and then boom, go straight to Mars. Especially since you said there's a whole bunch of other colonies.

So I think next week is gonna be a little bit of a transition episode where they're kind of getting the rest of these colonies we haven't really heard of. I don't think we're gonna dive deep into it the way we did Proxima three. Like, it's just gonna be like a bam, bam, bam. We'll probably see things from inside the bridge more than anything.

I think this one, here it is Jeff. This is going to be a political episode about Sheridan with these new commanders that have defected

Jeff: yeah.

Brent: and how he rallies them together. And I'm gonna make a bold prediction on this to go with a specific plot point. Sheridan's gonna do something, he's gonna make a decision, he's gonna make a call that it's not gonna go well for him.

It's gonna cause the other commanders to be like, yo, do we really wanna follow this guy now? Like, I mean, he's right about Clark being wacko. Like we're, we're all for that. But he also broke away. He betrayed us. He left us. You know, maybe we should kind of go do our own thing and it's gonna be a test of Sheridan's leadership and his ability to handle situations even when his own folks are having trouble believing him. But I think that that's actually, he's ultimately gonna win them over and that's what's gonna help win the battle at the end.

Jeff: Okay,

Brent: What about you?

Jeff: I, I'm gonna go pretty deep nerd here for a second.

Brent: Uh oh.

Jeff: So, the exercise of vital powers. This is a line in how Aristotle defines our purpose in life and how we become happy as humanity.

Brent: Is that what it's from? It sounds like it's from some sort of philosophers thing.

Jeff: yeah, I, I forget the exact quote, but it's something like the exercise. We achieve happiness and fulfillment through the exercise of vital powers, through our own excellence with a clear scope and authority. Something like that.

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: So I think I, I'm with you that, um, Sheridan's forces are growing and he's gotta figure out how to coordinate all the war efforts for stuff.

So this is gonna be Sheridan defining the scope and authority of the different personalities and command structures that, that are gonna exist in here. But I also think that the episode, like the, where that's gonna happen is Earth is going to send, like, there will be a space battle. It'll be earth attacking Babylon five, like a first wave attack on Babylon five with the intent to like, feel out the defenses.

But the other side of it is about happiness. So I think we're gonna see Garibaldi arriving on Mars and he'll be at, at. He'll be at Edgar's, you know, the, the office building or whatever that's there. But Edgars is gonna remain a hidden figure. Let me rephrase that. Beter is going to remain a hidden figure.

Brent: Right, right.

Jeff: And so Garabaldi is gonna start getting frustrated. He's gonna get mad, he's gonna be bitter, angry, Garabaldi that we've come to know, which is gonna play on him not being able to use his skills, his excellence, and leading to his unhappiness for everything. But the, uh, so we're gonna get that piece of Garibaldi.

And the big high point action of the episode will be the, uh, first wave attack on Babylon five.

Brent: Oh, we're gonna get an attack on Babylon five rather than the uh, uh, going forward. Okay.

Jeff: Yeah. Cause they talked about having all the league world's provided destroyer class ship to protect the

station. 

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. While they're gone.

Jeff: Yeah. And so I could see the, I could see, I see Earth sending an attack in for the purpose of being like, how are they secure in the station? But we'll find out right here next week.

Thank you all so very much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're watching or listening. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. We'll read it right here on the podcast, and please share this podcast. Hit the little share button, send it to somebody who already loves Babylon five, or is about to fall in love with this incredible series.

So, Brent, until next

Brent: Hey, Jeff.

Jeff: Yeah. What's up?

Brent: Um, question, have you changed the password to our email lately?

Jeff: No.

Brent: Okay. You probably should. In fact, let's put it on a change rotation of like every three minutes.

Jeff: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I guess that makes sense. You really can't, you really can't trust anybody anymore.

Brent: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Trust Brent. Trust yourself. Anyone else?

Jeff: Don't say it. Don't, don't say it.

Brent: Shoot 'em.

Jeff: In Valen's name,