Passing Through Gethsemane

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the very first time.

Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters who are watching Babylon five. Well, you guessed it for the first time. And in doing this, we are using that analytical lens we've acquired as Star Trek podcasters to Lord over our moral superiority over all things sci-fi and search for the Star Trek like messages that are in this series and trying to decide how much we really liked it.

Jeff: And to keep us honest on the Star Trek front, we play a game called The Rule of Three. That means each one of us get up to and no more than three references to Star Trek during the episode. That's it.

Brent: Three. No substitutions. Exchanges a refund, Brent.

Jeff: Jeff, we have a five star review. Oh yes. This is from Apple Podcasts, and I'm gonna say his name incorrectly, but it's Adam Paz and he says, it's my favorite podcast.

I'm a B five vet, but it's been a blast re-watching B five week to week with these guys and experiencing it through their eyes, with their encyclopedic knowledge of Star Trek. They bring a great perspective on the show. It's clear they're putting a ton of work into the show, watching episodes, multiple times, taking detailed notes, et cetera.

I'm also impressed by the willpower it must take to not skip ahead and binge the show.

Brent: Well, I have some news for you. did. It is incredibly hard. Oh, I was Did you cheat ? Dude, I, no, I have not. It is incredibly hard to not skip ahead, uh, and, and binge through this show. You, you know, when the worst time was though? Jeff was, um, back, kinda like during the Christmas holidays. Mm-hmm. , like, we kind of, we like bunched a couple up there and bunched back because we have families that we need to spend.

And so we had like a period of like a week and a half, maybe two weeks I remember where we didn't record. You remember that? And it was like, oh my gosh, I need to, I need, I just wanna watch it, find out what happens next.

Jeff: All I have to do is hit play. That's all I have to do. I Right. Brent, Brent would never even know.

It's fine. You'd

Brent: know, you'd know I could fake it the entire way.

Jeff: I'm, I'm not gonna bite, I'm not gonna bite on that one. Hey, I've got another comment. I got another comment. This one's from YouTube from a while ago, but it was great. And, uh, I don't know, I feel like, I feel like a very meme worthy comment as well.

If anyone out there wants to put it together, David Brown on YouTube says, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Staler and Waldorf. Watch Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: Statler and Waldorf. Yeah, the old

Jeff: dudes on the

Brent: Muppets, the two guys up in the balcony. Yep. That's what, yeah. Okay. .

Jeff: I mean, I, I, I feel like there's a, I don't know.

I, I felt like maybe we should be offended, but also Yeah, that sounds about right. Okay.

Brent: Statler and Waldorf. I, I have been compared to a lot of Muppets in my life. Jeff , staler and Waldorf have never been one though.

Jeff: Check that off the list.

Brent: There we go. Bucket list complete. Uh, I don't know if I should, if I should, uh, be, be grateful or if I should be offended. I knows I'm gonna have an attitude of gratitude, Jeff.

Attitude of gratitude. That's what I'm gonna have

Jeff: people. And you're part of the country and you're rhyming it all together, right?

Brent: That's right. That's what you do. That's right. That's what we do.

Well, Jeff, uh, you know, along with, uh, hearing from our good friends out there and along with the rule of three, we, we love our segments. We love doing the, the different things besides just talking about the episode, although we do talk about the episode as well. One of those things that we do is when we get to the end of each.

We look ahead at the next week's episode and we only look at the title. We don't see anything else but the title. We haven't read descriptions, we haven't looked at thumbnails or anything like that. And we make a prediction just based on the title alone, what next week's episode is. And this is the part right here, Jeff, where it's time to pay the piper and see how right or wrong we were for what we said passing through Gas Enemy was going to be about.

So Jeff, what did you say this episode was gonna be about and how close were you?

Jeff: Well, if I only took the first sentence of my guess, I was dead on. I just said someone's about to go through agony. Yeah, that, that's, that's pretty true. Also, that could be a lot, that could be most babble on five episodes, . So I don't think it counts.

I thought that this was gonna be the beginning of a trial for Sheridan. Uh, you know, Jesus was arrested in Gethsemane and everything went down from there. And I thought that this was gonna be kind of the start of that storyline for Sheridan. It was not that. What about you? What did you guess this one was gonna be

Brent: kind of along the same lines as you did Jeff.

Um, I said that this would be Sheridan and Lynn, because there's something about those two being connected. We saw that with, um, what was that episode at the end of season two, the inquisitor one, right? That one, yeah. Comes the inquisitor. Um, there's something about them being connected and making a prediction that by the end of the whole thing, they're gonna have to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

And this would be the episode where like they find that out and they've gotta come to terms with it as far as not far, as far as whether or not they wanna be that or not be that. And, uh, like you, I was completely, completely

Jeff: wrong. Yeah. For an episode that's titled really just kind of hands you what it's about.

We swung and we missed mm-hmm. , but that's okay. But Brent, for the people that it might have been a while since they've watched this or if they haven't watched it all and are listening to us anyway, which is awesome. Hi. People that aren't watching but listening. Anyway. Brent, why don't you tell us about passing through Gethsemane.

Hey,

Brent: do you remember those monks that came on board the station a few episodes back? Well, guess what? They're still here. And Brother Theo, formerly known as Draw, is playing a game of chess with Captain Sheridan looking on Ivanova and Brother Edward. A k a, Brad Dorff, aka a Chucky, a k a lawn Suiter. So buckle in cuz this is totally gonna be a horror episode, right?

Brother Edward is a friendly enough chap. He makes tri kits out of some sort of, uh, plastic or crystal or rock or something of that nature. We really don't know what, but the point is that much to the financial chagrin of the order, he refuses to sell them. Saying he gets double the blessing in making them and then in giving them.

but not to worry. Brother Edward is also aware that the order needs cash to fulfill their greatest purpose of all, which is learning from all the other alien species out there, what they call God. So he sets up a deal with someone whom we've never seen before and will likely never, ever see again. That will do just that.

He's all smiles until a black rose appears to have fallen out of his bag, a black rose that he doesn't remember at all. And speaking of not remembering at all, there's a cut scene that explains to us exactly what's going on here. It's Dalin and Garabaldi talking. She wants to know more about this death of personality punishment thing that we last saw back in the season one episode.

Quality of mercy. Basically, it's a punishment in lieu of execution for murderers, whereby their entire personality and all of their memories are erased and they're released back into society to serve and do good deeds. So is everyone caught up? Everyone understand what's gonna happen with Brother Edward now cuz they just told you.

All right, let's get back to it. Along with the Black Rose Brother Edward returns to his quarters where he sees a message written on the wall in blood death walks among you. This freaks him out so much that he runs to get Gu Baldi and by the time they get back there's nothing on the wall. Later he's meeting with the Lynn and Lanier and they're having a grand old time discussing religious philosophies when Brother Edward tells them that he has always wondered if he would have the courage to do what Jesus did and stay in the garden of guest and stay in the garden of Geth knowing that death was coming for him.

And would you like a side of fries with your foreshadowing there brother? Well, heading back from Len's, brother Edward runs into a sonari and suddenly he's hearing voices and seeing visions. A woman screams and a black rose is in her mouth and there's a flash of green light as she falls and he's looking over his, oh wait, sorry.

Wrong story. Wrong story. Brother Edward asked the computer to crosscheck all the images that he saw and heard with the name Charles or Charlie or Chucky,

and just a mere four hours later, which I'm pretty sure Google would've done that in like four seconds. Wouldn't you know it? It's him, brother Edward, formally Chuck Dexter, the black rose killer who went through the death of personality punishment. Brother Edward is now all sorts of confused. How can he be forgiven if he doesn't even know what his sins are?

How can justice be served if he's just here living his life freely? So he goes to the garden? Okay. Not, not really a garden. It's metaphor. It's just a metaphor. And he waits. He waits for his accusers to come. He waits for death to come. And boy do they. They're the children, the husbands, the families of all the women he's murdered in his life and they're here to extract revenge.

Except now they've all gotten cold feet except for one. And he has no problem taking all of their frustrations out on Brother Edward. Well, with the help of Lea Alexander, cuz yeah, she's back and in perfect health. I might add. As the new attache of Ambassador Kosh, she scans that Sonari that Edward bumped into earlier.

You see, he's a sonari telepath and that clues everyone in to know where Brother Edward is Brown, 42. They all rush down and there's Brother Edward hung up like he's been crucified. And just as he is about to draw his last breath, brother Theo grantson his last rights. But no worries, the security team is caught up with the guy responsible for this crime.

And before you can say death of personality, he's had the procedure performed on him. By whom? Who knows. And now this guy who murdered Brother Theo is now known as, and now this guy who murdered Brother Edward, is now known as Brother Malcolm Sheridan, has a real rubber meets road moment here. And he eventually extends his hand in greeting, recognizing that this man is not the same man as before.

And Sheridan begins his own process of forgiving and oh yeah, Lida, uh, she's doing something somewhere in Ambassador cautious corners where. He's sucking off her soul or something into his encounter suit, which is probably the only thing that's gonna carry over into future episodes, to be honest. Jeff, what did you think of passing through Gmy?

Jeff: I loved this episode and I need to own all my biases about this. So if you're listening on the audio version of this podcast, I am wearing a shirt that says Celebrate Diversity, and it has like 16 different crosses and crucifixes on it because of all the different rights of Catholicism. I am an active and practicing Catholic.

We've talked about it here on the podcast before, and this, this was, this was a really beautiful, just like tko back in season one. You might have heard me mention that one once or twice before, but just like that was such a beautiful examination of one of the practices and traditions in Juda. This was, uh, an ugly and ultimately beautiful examination of one of the mysteries of Catholicism, of forgiveness that we, we talk a lot about.

I loved it. But, you know, not only did this episode have Brad Dorf in it, which is awesome because dude's, dude's legend, but it was directed by Adam Nemoy. Yes, it was. Yeah. How cool is that?

Brent: Yes, it was. He had, he a guy, don't we?

Jeff: Yeah. He'd only directed a couple episodes of Star Trek. Really? At this point. I think he had something else, but he, he, uh, directed Rascals, which is, which is kind of cool.

But yeah, I just thought it was real. When I saw his name pop up, I was like, this is, this is awesome. But I, what I love about it is this episode poses so many of the questions you and I have talked about through this, right? Uh, justice, vengeance, forgiveness, you know, all those things and how, how do we balance them?

And I think it was done in a really, really entertaining and in the world of Babylon five, like a really. Realistic way. I, yeah, I enjoyed this one a lot. What did, what did you think of it?

Brent: I like with t k o very much enjoyed this because of the, the questions that it asks, uh, the, the ideas that it puts out there. Um,

was it, if you take it for an hour of television and go, was this a fantastic hour of television? Is this, if anybody's just coming along, they sit down and they watch this episode and they're going, yeah, okay, whatever. Um, are they gonna get it? Are they gonna latch onto it? I don't know. I really don't. I, I, my guess is no, kind of like t k O, like if you look at just tko o.

Like, on the surface, it's really not that great of an episode. I know you would disagree with me, Jeff,

Jeff: but I am the one

Brent: I'm going to say, right? Because every episode is somebody's favorite and that just happens to be yours and you are the one . Um, but I, on the surface, t k o is not that great of an episode.

But when you get below the surface and you really dig out the, the plumb, the depths of what that episode is about, and you see just the artistry with which the way the episode is put together, it's, it's really a, a well done episode. And I feel like this is one of those kind of episodes that is, uh, uh, and this one hits a lot closer to me as well.

Um, I'm not a practicing Catholic, um, but this, this certainly, uh, I, I'm also not Jewish, so I had to learn a little bit about that. Uh, but this one hits a lot closer to me personally in my own faith journey. Um, for that. And I, I mean, to, to see Brad Dorff you, when you do that, you know it's about to be a horror episode.

Totally. Because there, there are several people who are typecast out there and Brad Dorff is one of them. I've never seen Brad Dorff not play this same guy ever. Like this is always who he is. Right. Um, and he does it so good. Does it? Great. He does so, so

Jeff: good. Yeah. First time I saw him was in, uh, David Lynch's Dune back in 84 Uhhuh, where he was Fighter de Reese and just, I mean, owned that role.

Yeah, he was, cuz he's just, that character is creepy and gross and weird and terrifying and . Here's Brad Dorff. There you go. Like it's, it's perfect match.

Brent: And then, I mean, even you go all the way to like Lord of the Rings. Yeah. Where he is in Lord of the Rings. He's that same slimy smarmy, you know, he's a bad guy, but he has a conscience.

You know, like, like

Jeff: what's that all about? Um, even see that in, uh, in child's play with the, the progression of Chucky. Yeah. He's this serial killer and he is horrible, but also like he loves his wife and is willing to kill, to bring her back to life as a doll. Right. , you know, but yeah, he, he, he, every character he plays has complexity to them and he just, that's just what he does.

Right.

Brent: Uh, I, I will say I had one huge, huge disappointment with this episode though, Jeff. Okay. We got to see Lea Alexander again. Mm-hmm. . We did not get to see Evil. Talia not even mentioned. I really wanted to see Evil. Talia and Jeff. I don't know if we're ever gonna get to see Evil Talio. , we got what, a quarter of an episode with Evil Talia.

Maybe not even a quarter, like an eighth of an episode with Evil Talia. It was the best Talia I've ever seen. I want more of that. Talia. It's

Jeff: literally just like, oh God, hey, you, you got any more

Brent: of that evil? Talia? Like, come on, gimme the other one. Gimme evil. Talia Uhhuh . Like, I want, I want that. Um, yeah, I didn't, I didn't think we would be seeing Litta again.

I don't know why did, did you think we'd be seeing her again? I, I didn't think she'd come back

Jeff: up. I didn't think she would, and I didn't. Especially not in the way that she came back up. Like, yeah, there's

Brent: some stuff, but now it seems like she's gonna be a while and she's gonna be around a while. Yeah.

Jeff: I, I'm gonna be here.

I'm gonna, these things Also, I'm gonna back and forth to Volans space because. I'm part of his encounter, Sue. Okay. Yeah.

Brent: Can we talk about that and just get that out of the way? Yeah. What was, so what was that going on? What was your take on on that whole thing at the end? I

Jeff: am so, so I have a big theory on this one and I'm excited about it because I brought it up.

I don't remember if it was the end of season two or matters of honor at the top of season three. I don't remember where it was, but Uhhuh , we were asking about what, like what do the shadows want with human, it must have been matters of honor, cuz it was what do the shadows want with humanity? You know, they're on earth doing this and Yeah, it was cuz it was, when they were talking about Cyco was talking about the, the p op was talking about their program.

Well, what program? Well, because the shadows can somehow match with humans. And I asked the question, how do volans, how do shadows, whatever, how do they reproduce? Yeah, they do. They need some like other species. I think that Kosh. Reproducing with Lida. Oh really? Li's gonna be a vlan. Mommy. So

Brent: did we just see them having sex?

I don't know. Did we just see full unedited, like, oh wow. She accused having sex fully unedited, uncensored, onscreen boo.

Jeff: I think we did. And it was so, it was so intense. It gave her gills, like it blew her neck out. It was like, that was wild stuff going on, . That's not, you owe me a buzzer, by the way. That's too for me.

I do. Oh, I do, don't I? It's confused.

Brent: Yeah. I just, well, I could have let

Jeff: that go. You wouldn't even know. I wouldn't even picked up. I was so, I was so just like, oh my gosh, that was such a wild, and, and frankly out of nowhere scene like, it's just like, oh, okay, she's in kosher. Good what? . Right.

Brent: What's happening?

So something that happens in the sci-fi that I, I've seen in at least a couple of places. , I don't wanna drop a whole lot of names just for future sake, but, um, where aliens either pose as, or play the role of the gods and goddesses of human humanities past Yeah. Mm-hmm. . Right. And even to today. And what you, what you find is, and it's, it's a rather common trope.

I feel that the reason that they're doing that is because somehow they feed off of our worship. Like our worship feeds them somehow. And, and the only way that we will continue to do that is if we stay subjected and we stay ignorant. And so they have to continue to oppress humanity so that we realize, hey, these aren't just aliens, these are actual, we don't realize, hey, they're not gods.

They're actually just aliens. Yeah. I can stop worshiping them. Keep 'em, we keep '

Jeff: em in that, that

Brent: position of power. Yeah. Yeah. So they've, they've gotta keep us pressed down in order to, to do that. And that's what immediately came to mind. Only. , this is a very willing participant that knows full well what's going on.

And so it seemed like to me like she was feeding him like, oh wow, life force getting sucked off or, huh, whatever. Uh, you know, because Kosh clearly is every person's God out there or something of that nature. I, I can't imagine that Kosh himself is everybody's God I Right. I wonder if that's just a thing the of the VLAN in particular.

They

Jeff: all do, you know, but yeah, when you're right. Cuz in that scene, like it was like the light was going into the encounter suit right. From Lida into it, right? Yeah, maybe. Right.

Brent: But I mean, they can still be brew producing if whatever was going from Lida into the encounter suit to make Kosh pregnant.

Yeah. Maybe it goes that Kosh

Jeff: is pregnant now. Right? He's a seahorse. It's the right . It's just literally someone refusing to say they were wrong when they were gendering the seahorse. But the scene right before that, She and Ivanova were like, she she'd left for a while and came back from a trip. And I'm guessing like there was a, a really subtle break in time between, hey, this dude just killed Brother Edward.

And then he came back as Brother Malcolm. Right. And then that gap, Lea had some trip and came back. They were, she and Ivanova were walking back. And two my Rush fans out there, they were from at a sign that said Gates 12 to 21. Uhhuh. , which is their great record, 2112 the other way. So I'm, I'm totally gonna say jms dropped that in as a rush Easter egg, but she looked very sick.

Like she looked pale and she looked like, like Le Did you mean Leeta did, yeah. Yeah. Like under her eyes were kind of blackened and at first I thought like, oh, maybe there's just some weird lighting or makeup mess up or something like that. But now, like we're thinking about it, I wonder if there is some Now she's like somehow dependent on the volans for.

for life. Like Franklin was talking about how she's in Yeah. Perfect health. Yeah. And so she was gone for a while. And so like, she missed out on her, on her vo light party. I

Brent: mean that, and that's certainly, that's another thing that you see sometimes in sci-fi, that the trade off for humanity is they get perfect health.

Mm-hmm. and healing and you know, maybe, maybe you're an incubator of that God's uh, children or something. that was everybody out there who knows what I'm talking about that you have no clue, Jeff.

Jeff: Um, I just think in Zeus, right? Like that's the whole, like Exactly, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah.

I'm sure. I'm sure it

Brent: is. Sure. Um, so yeah, so li. Very interesting. I wanna point this out though, before we go any further though, Jeff, unless, did you have anything else about Lida? Not really. Okay. Okay. Oh, can I also say this about Lea, I'm so glad that Franklin didn't kiss her in the Med Bay, right? Or Med Lab.

Thank you for being appropriate.

Jeff: He was getting ready to, it's like, thank you for being appropriate as a

Brent: medical professor. Really close to her face. Right? Oh, man. Although I, I, I assumed that had actually more to do with framing the shot. Probably did with natural,

Jeff: uh, distances. I, I feel like we talked about a while ago, like trying to keep a Marcus count going on, like how often Marcus shows up.

We should also have a count of the times Franklin didn't behave inappropriately with a patient. And so far I think we'd have one .

Brent: Right? This one was Okay. I'm, I'm good with this one. Yeah. Um, I, I did wanna point this out. You mentioned Adam Nemoy is the director. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Um, do you realize that all four of these first episodes of season three, have all been written by j m s.

Jeff: Wow. You're right. Yeah.

Brent: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, we always talk about like, he saves the big ones for himself, right? Like they've all been written by j m s, which just goes to tell you, I, I think it at least has an implication that these episodes are super important. Mm-hmm. . Right. But in speaking of that, I want to, if, if we can, I want to jump to the conversation that, um, Dylan and Lanier and Brother Edward were having in their quarters, and I don't, I don't remember exactly what all, there was something about the soul and a light being cast onto a wall and mm-hmm.

souls were like that. This is the only the vessel that you can see to, to, to look at it. And there was all this stuff, and

that whole conversation to me felt like, what? I can only imagine. Is like j m S's own internal dialogue grappling with belief in faith. Like that's what it felt like to me. It felt like an internal dialogue of like, okay, well there's this, and then there's this and there's this. And just kind of having a conversation as best as you understand it.

And, and from what I understand about J m S's past and, uh, I know he's, he's an a vowed atheist and, uh, something has to do with his past of coming out of other stuff. Like there still has to be thoughts and ideas, and I don't think that you can write a show as religiously heavy as Babbel on five is without having that as a background, at least somewhere without having that as a part of who you are as a person.

Right. So, uh, I I, I don't know if that rung out to you at all. It just, and I'm not saying that it was, I'm just saying it had that ring to it to me that like, I felt like we were just peering into J M S's. Like a conversation he's had with himself many, many times before,

Jeff: almost maybe like George Lucas and the force like that was when I think, yeah, it was in a new hope when Ben Kenobi on the Millennium Falcon is like, it's the, you know, it, it, it binds us and connects us and it's this energy that was George Lucas like using the force as his expression of what his belief was that maybe this whole, like his grappling is not so much that there's a great deity and we worship the deity is more of just, hey, there's the universe and we're all a part of this universe and we're just physical manifestations of it.

I like, I actually like the way, I think it was Thelen who explained it, where it's, it's the universe trying to figure out who it is through, through man. It's physical manifestations, so we're all just growth journeys of the universe. Yeah. I could see, I didn't catch that in there, but I can totally see it.

It makes sense. I, I

Brent: think when you just understand who he is and where he is coming from to where he is at the, even at the point in this writing, As best as you and I can understand a dude 30 years ago that we've never met or even heard of Really? Before? A

Jeff: couple, yeah. Six months

Brent: ago. not, how long's it been?

It's been more than six. Are we a year

Jeff: yet? Yeah, we, yeah. Cause we, first episode I think came out May of last year. Oh gosh. We are May of 22. Yeah, we're right there. Yeah.

Brent: Wow. Jeff.

Jeff: Jeff, time man. Time goes right.

Brent: I don't even track, I don't even track that stuff hardly anymore. You think we do like a, Hey, this is our one year anniversary show

Jeff: or something, but, well, I called that a 50th episode a while ago, but that's like, that's literally on our notes.

It's episode this, so it's easy. But I think the other thing I caught outta that whole thing was Dalen or, uh, Lanier started to say more and Dalen cut him off. And I, and I like, he was right. You know, well, Valin something like was not, he said something was not born of Minbar, but Oh, oh. And then she shut him up.

So like there's, I am still. I'm

Brent: still saying a, a mbar not born of Minbar. Uhhuh . Yeah. He came from nowhere and set up the great council

Jeff: and now according to Jeff resides, his soul resides in Sinclair. You think it's, you still think it's Sinclair? Not totally. I, yeah. No reason to think. I mean, they, they had a, he's been on the show once for like 14 seconds, so I mean, sure.

He is still a . I'm sure he is gonna come back as Valin, although it's getting less and less likely as the show goes on. But I'm gonna hold onto that. I got that and I've got Anna that I am holding onto Anna, coming back as Morden.

Brent: I, I still think you're full, but I did have a theory that I think we can take the red yarn off the board and just completely wipe away.

I said a couple episodes ago that, um, that Telepaths are born of the Mbar soul. Mm-hmm. . And given the fact that we have shinari. Telepaths and, and we did hear from, uh, uh, Kar back in like the first episode that like, everybody's got telepaths except for the Narn.

Jeff: So yeah. And he had ideas on how to, how to fix that, but yeah.

Le to shut him down.

Brent: Yeah. Um,

going back to the med scene in Med Bay with Dr. Franklin, is this the first time we've seen in Babylon five the wave of light over it and ITSs better? I don't, I don't

Jeff: think so. There's time we've seen that. I think we saw some of that with linear after he got hurt in the explosion. Yeah. Uh, I think, I think there's some of that.

I think, yeah, there's been a little, a little bit of it here and there, but it's definitely not been as ubiquitous as other series.

Brent: I feel like we should have that technology by now. Seriously, , like I, I know that like there's a way that we can measure readings based off of measuring light that is coming back off of something.

it's called Oscopy or something like that. Okay. Don't quote me on that.

Jeff: O can't even repeat it. So I o

Brent: otoscopy on, on a str. Anyway, anyway, something like that. The physics people out there will know exactly what I'm talking about. Uh, but you know, like we can, we can measure stuff and see it without having to destroy and cut into it.

Like you just wave a light and you go, oh yeah, that's what's going on. Anyway, this is the thing. I feel like we should have that for now for medical stuff anyway. Um, okay. I think everything else, Jeff, is all centered around Edward. Yeah. If you wanna get to that spot. Um, what did, what did you think of Edward?

We first saw him, it's Brad Doff. Oh my gosh. You get over that point, he starts talking. Go. You

Jeff: can't not help but wait for the moment where he's a psychopath, you know, like what? He makes a little origami things and they're cute and he wants this stuff and everything, and you're just waiting for like, him to go back to his room and just have like, Like horrifying paintings or buckets of blood or something just like, you know, awful.

I mean, we kind of got that, but not in the former brother Edward. But, but it definitely painted everything I like. I just kept waiting for the other shoe to drop with him. I couldn't buy him as like a truly devout monk until, until we knew the truth about him. And then I was able to, I did, I do love . I mean, to jump way ahead.

I love that his name, um, was Charles, Charles Dexter. Cuz I mean, this was out just, just at the time of child's play. And is

Brent: that a, is that a reference to ch to Child's play to Chucky if they just call him Charles? It's gotta be right. Has to be, has to be like,

Jeff: because it was, it was, whoops. It was high. Like it was high horror, you know, around this time.

Oh good. Yeah, sure. That was good. That was good slasher stuff that was coming out. Yeah. But no, I, I loved and ultimately, before even talking about Edward, I just asked myself like, why was he telling this story in, in Babylon five? Like taking a lot of this episode to, you know, all the, the latest stuff that we will see.

That's, that's ongoing stuff. And the things we learned about the Inbar, that was like five minutes. Of the episode, everything else was around Brother Edward. Was it even five minutes? I

Brent: don't even know if

Jeff: it was five minutes. I

Brent: mean, it was a blink, you know? Was it 15 seconds? I don't think it was that long.

It wasn't. I, that's a question I have coming out of this episode as a whole is why this episode is, is this a, a filler episode? You got 22, you gotta get out. There's a little something you want us to catch out of it. So you put it in the middle of this. But, uh, you know, I sat down at the end. This episode feels more preachy.

Mm-hmm. than it does storytelling.

Jeff: Big time to me. You know, especially knowing it's, it was came from j m s to just hit so hard. I mean, this hits so hard over the head like this. As a Catholic, one of the things I hear all the time from people, there's a lot of things people grossly misunderstand about our faith and tradition, but one of the big ones is like, So you can just kill somebody and tell a priest you did it and then you're forgiven.

I mean, that's ridiculous. That's the dumbest thing. Yeah. That is dumb and ridiculous because that's not how it works. Like it's deep and it's complex. What goes into that reconciliation? This was such a deep dive Yeah. Into that one singular mystery of Catholicism. But I think what I think it was j m S's way of presenting us, like his other deep dive into, into modern faith or contemporary faith was Ivanova and tko.

And that was character development, right? That was right. Giving us more about an important character in Babylon. Five. Brother Edward. Not an important character ongoing for Babylon. Five. So why I think this is literally

Brent: fact, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a guess, just a prediction right here. We're never gonna see him again.

You think ?

Jeff: Really? I don't, I don't know. . Maybe he comes back as a space zombie, like dude from, uh, the Bureau. He's a component. Ah-huh. He, he's one of them. But, but I think this is just to introduce the concept of forgiveness. You know, I think that's something we've, that has come up in Babylon five a couple of times and, and, and is here now.

But, um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I, I could go on and on about all kinds of stuff, so I, I want to hear, I want to hear what you, you, you thought.

Brent: Yeah. I, you know, the, the pieces that really stuck out. The stories, the story mm-hmm. , right. The, the pieces that really stuck out to me are the, the questions that it poses questions that, that, uh, Alon Suiter asked, I'm sorry.

Uh, brother Edward asked, uh,

do you have to know what your sins are in order to have them forgiven? You don't. Right. You don't, brothers EO says, no, you really don't because God's big enough. He says, God's big enough that he can take care of the sins that you don't even know. Yeah. You know, and, and I like, and I'm just sitting here and I'm going, that's so true.

That's like, that's so in line with what the, the Christian faith, the Catholic faith really teaches, you know, like he's, he's, he, he's, I remember an old veggie tales, God's bigger than the boogieman. Like he's so big. Like, like he can know what all that stuff is. You, it, it's not about atoning for each individual thing as much as it is about the deal as a whole, the sin nature as a whole.

Mm-hmm. . Right. Um, um, the concept that for Brother Edward that he says, how can justice be served if I'm just here living? Wasn't justice served with the mine wipe? Yeah. That's the, isn't justice being served by him serving? Community. Like, do we really have to go to the self-flagellation to really show how, sorry, do you really have to just give over your life to show?

Because he clearly at this point was, was remorseful. Mm-hmm. , very right. Um, and I, I, I have this note here, Jeff, and I don't know if this is a Brent thought or if this was a thought that came out of the episode, so maybe you can help me with it. And this kind of gets into the Star Trek message stuff. Okay.

One of the, one of, you know, one of the tropes we see in sci-fi, we've seen it in, in, uh, we see it in Stargate, we've seen it in Star Trek. We've seen it in, uh, battle Stargate Lactic, I'm pretty sure we've seen it in, uh, anyway, sci-fi, sci-fi as a whole is, is a person still guilty and responsible for the actions that happen in a former life?

right? Yeah, yeah. Like, like is there are, are, are there actions that can be atoned for based on like heinous, heinous crimes that can be a toned for, based on what you're doing now? Right. Or like I said, truly in a former life mm-hmm. . And with this in particular, with the whole mind wipe idea, right? Like talking about like, oh, he's, he's, he's a thoroughly, thoroughly bad person.

Thoroughly, thoroughly evil person. Isn't the fact that he's now a new person? Isn't that the points, right? Yeah. Like isn't it proof that good existed in Chuck Dexter because Brother Edward exists?

Jeff: And even after, after knowledge of Chuck Dexter comes out and that mind wipe is falling away, he's still remorseful.

Yeah. He still wants to pay for his crime and now he's like a blend.

Brent: He's Edward Dexter. Well, I I would even challenge what you just said there. I don't think the mind wipes falling away at all. I think it's, it's purely intact. He just knows what happened. He may not be able to remember it, but he understands what happened.

And like there's a bit of like, he can feel guilt that that happened with him, but he doesn't feel the guilt cause he doesn't even know that it happened. Like he is, is there something that you're robbing somebody of their own penance? Of their own remorsefulness by making them forget that they did wrong in the first.

You know, like one of the things that that, that, uh, Christianity teaches Catholicism teaches is when your sins are forgiven, you don't necessarily stop sinning. You don't necessarily forget what you have done or where you have been. You just live in a new reality. Mm-hmm. of being forgiven. Right. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah.

Jeff: It's all about your relationship with God and when you know, the, the, the word sin comes from archery and missing when you miss missing the mark. Yep. It's a sin. And so sin, when you miss it damages your relationship with God. And when you are forgiven, when you go through in Catholicism, the sacrament of reconciliation, you are repairing your writing that relationship with God.

Right. But it doesn't, it doesn't mean it never happened. Right. Right. It just means that you're right with God now. Right. And you, you can, you

Brent: may still have to have to face the consequences Exactly. Here on earth, right? Mm-hmm. , um, you may still have to deal with that, but as far as this connection goes, You're good upwards connection.

You're good. And is there something about taking that away, taking the, the horizontal relationship, the relationship to other people? If you take that away, that the relationship vertically cannot be, cannot be mended or can have a hard time or even just your own internal relationship. Um, super. I, I, that's where this episode was so, so intriguing, um, to me.

And then when we come down to, uh, at the end when they find him hanging on the cro, I mean, my God, they've got him crucified up there. Yeah. A hundred percent on the thing. Like, I mean, can we talk about Neo at the end of Matrix three? Like can you get any more bonk bonk over the head with what you're trying to tell us here?

But he says, is there enough forgiveness?

Jeff: Sorry, Jeff, hold on. Is there enough video bandwidth for Brother Brent to stay on board? Hi everybody on YouTube. This is the fun stuff that you get to see.

Brent: So fun fact behind the scenes, Brent uses his phone as his camera because it's so much better than regular webcams. Ah-huh . It's a great camera. It's just a much better camera. Right. And I already have it. I don't even go buy $600 camera when you don't put said phone into airplane mode when you're recording, people can call in and that takes over your thing.

There you go. So why is anybody calling me at this time of night? Seriously. I do not wanna sell you my house, and I do not wanna buy an extended warranty on my car. It's good. I don't know if you're getting those calls up where you are, Jeff. I'm getting those calls all the time. You wanna sell your house

Jeff: Uhhuh?

Yeah, apparently. Apparently the market's great. It's not

Brent: great. I don't wanna sell you my house. No, you are not gonna pay me what it's gonna take for me to move out of this house because you're gonna have to pay my down payment on a new house that's bigger and better than this one You're, and you're gonna make you pay $15,000 to move me.

Yeah, because I want the full service move. I want where they're gonna come back, they're gonna move and they're gonna

Jeff: unpack. Then I want hands off the whole

Brent: way. Yeah. If you go through all that, then yeah, we can talk about it. Anyway, what was I saying?

Jeff: I don't remember talking about things that Catholic Christianity teaches.

Right, right. In the relationship horizontal

Brent: and, yeah. Yeah. I I thought it was, oh, he's crucified. Yes, that's right. He's, he's up there. I mean, like, hello Neo in the end of the matrix, I don't know if you get any more bonk, bonk over the head, but he asks this question, is there enough forgiveness for what I've done?

And it, it poses that question. Is there a limit to forgiveness? Now it's easy to say with God, with a figure of faith, forgiveness is unlimited. Mm-hmm. . But is forgiveness limited between people? Should forgiveness be limited to people or rather, let me rephrase that. Should between people forgiveness, be unlimit.

right? To go back to more Bible, Jesus said, Hey, forgi, you know, you say give, forgive your brother seven times. Some say seven times seven. I say 70 times seven. Mm-hmm. , which is really only 490. But what he was really saying is unlimited amount of times. Yeah. You always forgive. Always forgive. And that's something, you know, we practice in my house here.

Um, I'm not trying to tell anybody else how to parent out there, but, uh, you know, when, when my kids especially, um, when they do something to, to each other, you know, there's the, there's the three step process. I'm sorry that I did this. I'll promise I won't do it again. Or I'll try not to do it again. Will you forgive me?

Like we make them say those words, will you? A lot of times people lose that third one. What's really funny is, is we've practiced that so long here, that when like a friend comes over and it happens, like my oldest will be like, and now ask them to forgive you . Because people don't often go through that step of at, of saying the words, will you forgive me?

And it's a thing that we model as parents. Mm-hmm. , my wife and I, we model that as parents and, and we do that in our own relationship because we're, we're people. But you know what, what's really cool about that is no matter how mad you are at somebody saying the words I forgive you immediately be, at least begins to break down the oomph of that thing.

You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. , like, it may not be all the way gone. You can actively be like, no, I'm gonna hang on to it. Which, that's a whole different conversation, but that can just melt away.

Jeff: It does. Yeah. I think that this episode dives, dives into that, and it dives into it through the question of capital punishment is a mind wipe getting death of personality, more humane than the death penalty.

Garabaldi and Dalen have that conversation about it. And Garabaldi, he's an I for an I guy, right? And Yep. Dalen channels, her inner Gandhi and basically says, you know, Eiff for and I, the whole world would be blind, but. Oh gosh. There's just, there's a lot to this because what happens, so if, if we follow the tenets of Christianity in the Bible and the sermon of the on the Mount, Jesus gives us the Lord's prayer, and in there it says, uh, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive others.

So, right. If we expect to enjoy the unlimited forgiveness that God offers, then we have to offer it as well. And it's not conditional. Right. So I'm, I'm, I'm dramatically oversimplifying a lot of this, but we, we have to model what that's like. The point, literally that's the point of, of Christian religion and most religions is it's our job to model what the, our deity shows us to do.

And the key tenant of Christianity is that we forgive others. And that's what, that's what we do. So in the context of the death penalty, right. So someone does. Bad. And so we kill them, you know, you killed somebody. I'll show you. I'll kill you right back and we'll see how that goes. So apparently, you know, humanities move beyond that.

They do death of personality. So what happens here, brother Edward realizes what he has done and he wants forgiveness. So he goes to the garden as you described, and waits for them to show up. And crazy, crazy Malcolm, that dude just looks nine ways to wild. Sure. He comes out and he's like, yeah, I'm gonna straight gonna murder you.

So he does. He kills him. But what happens to him, the same thing. Now his personality has been killed. Yeah. We have a quote unquote more humane way of meeting out justice, but it's just creating the same cycle that I, for an I makes the whole world blind does. We're just wiping out personality after personality.

So is there forgiveness? It's unlimited potential for people, I think, I believe, I truly believe that there is an unlimited potential for forgiveness, but we have this barbaric part of us that wants to see people suffer for the bad that they've done. And we internalized that Edward internalized that he wanted, he wanted that to happen to him in a, in, in, in a, in a way that he felt would make him right.

As you said, make him write horizontally, make him right with people. Right. It's just wild to me, you know? Could you imagine what if, what if in that moment when Malcolm says, Hey, yeah, they're not ready to go, but I'm ready to go. What if one of them stepped forward, put their arms on Malcolm and was like, no.

Look, brother Edward, I forgive you. Yeah.

Brent: Oh yeah. That good? Uh, okay, so Jeff, I, I think we've hit that part of the show where we boil it all down and see if this has any of that Star Trek quality to it. We're already there. We're doing, we're doing it. a, a part of this is kind of sometimes saying, here's how Star Trek would've done this show.

Versus how Babylon five did this show. Okay, let me start there. You know how Star Trek would've solved this the exact way you just said? Exactly. Yeah. Somebody would've forgiven Babylon five said no f that we're gonna , we're gonna go the we're going in. Right? Um, but Jeff, let, let's do this. Let's, let's jump into it.

Let's see if there's any of that message. Is there a, a mirror to society? Is there a moral to it? Is, are we giving us hope that things can be better in the future, that we can get to be better in the future? And in doing that, Jeff, the way we do this is we rate it on a scale of zero to five deltas, and we also rate it on a scale of zero to five star furries.

Deltas being how messaging, how preachy is this episode star, furries being how Babylon five. How not Star Trek is this episode. And, uh, I'm gonna take Deltas on this one. And you're gonna take star furries. I'll go first. All right. There's tons to dissect here. And we've, we're already in the thick of it. I mean, we're up to our elbows and frog guts right now having dissected this thing.

Um, what is the nature of forgiveness, I think is really what this episode comes down to. Um, on the part of the sinner, can you forgive yourself? Because that was Brother Edwards thing. Mm-hmm. , he couldn't forgive himself once he knew what he had done. Uh, and we talked about that. Or do you have to put yourself in the way of crucifixion to pay for your sins?

Do you really have to do that? In the end? Was it even enough? Because he sits there and he asks, he asks Brother Theo, at that point, he's like, is this enough? Have I done it? Like, I always wondered if I could stay here, and I did. Is that gonna be enough? Is that gonna be enough? And, and Brother Theo's like, buddy, you've already been like, that's the crazy thing.

You've already, you didn't e before you ever did this. You were forgiven. Yeah. You

Jeff: know? In the scene in the scene that was a muck confessional, right? Where they were behind the greats and there was the dark light lighting going on. Uhhuh and where, where Brother Edward was just like, I'm this, I am a horrible person.

I'm a murderer. I need this. And Theo was just like, you just ask God for forgiveness. You want forgiveness in your heart, and you ha like he gave that message there. And then after Edward did everything, he said it again as he was doing a version of the last rights. He's like, no, you, you've been good all along, man.

Like . Yeah. It's great courage that you showed, but you've been good for a long time. Yeah.

Brent: You're, you're okay. Um, so there's the part of the center. Let's talk about the part of the victim. Can you do forgiveness as being part of the victim? Uh, let's talk about the victim's family and specifically we'll talk about the guy that eventually became Brother Malcolm.

Cuz I don't think we ever had his pre mind wiped name. I don't think so.

Jeff: Right.

Brent: Um,

Was becoming what you hated worth it because he hated Brother Edward. He hated Chuck Dexter. Let's, let's, let's call it what it was. He hated Chuck Dexter so much that he went and became Chuck Dexter. Now sure, he may not have had a serial killer of all these people with a, with a little token left behind in his wake, but he went and became a murderer.

He lost himself in the middle of it because of his inability to forgive. I feel like at this point, I should say, just I have never had somebody that I love be murdered and have to go through the process of forgiving somebody who has murdered a loved one. Um, I am, I, I can't say for sure that any of our listeners have never gone through that.

Uh, I don't know. So I, I don't mean to be talking out of my ear with something like this. The overall message though, I think is, is

Jeff: clear. Yeah. If, if I could, if I could, yeah. This, I'm gonna, I'm gonna share a story. It's not, um, I, okay, so I'm gonna try and stay cool through this back in just before Thanksgiving.

I don't think I ever talked to you about this, Brent. This is, I didn't talk to a, I haven't talked to a lot of people about this, but just before Thanksgiving, I have a good friend who was, who was brutally murdered. Uh, she, um, who she, um, was an in-home care provider specifically for people with, um, with, um, uh, yes, with uh, Lou Gehrig's disease.

I can't uhhuh. And so she would take care, take care of people. She's an longtime nurse, just an incredible, incredible person. And she went to take care of one of her women patients who is an older, older woman and her adult son was there. Her adult son, uh, is not a mentally healthy person, attacked her.

broke an end table over her head and she died nine days later. And it was in a coma and it was really, it was, it was really hard. Um, I went to her funeral, she's Catholic, so it's a Catholic, it's a mass that you do for the Catholic funeral, and at the end, the family, someone can come. And eulogize, I got to eulogize her.

It was a beautiful eulogy. And, um, at the end of it, at the end of it, they forgave the man who killed her. Wow. And they talked about, sorry. They talked about how, um, in the scripture it says that there is, there is a time to every purpose. And in that scripture it says that there is a time to kill and there is a time to heal and there's a time to love.

And when they forgave, uh, when they forgave the guy who did this, they said that this was not only the time to kill, , but it was to kill, it was to kill her in, um, because she was doing something that was pure and of love. She was there because she loved this patient of hers and wanted to do well. And so she died doing what she was here to do and the strength.

And I, and I am, I'm friends with members of her family to this day, months later, still speak of this perpetrator in terms of there's an ongoing trial that's still happening and there's stuff, and they're gonna be saddled with this for a long time, but they still speak in terms of forgiveness for him, and they have pity on him, you know, because he's not a mentally healthy person and he was expressing his illness in a way that killed our friend and their sister.

But what I know is that every member of that family is healthy. They're cared for. And I'm gonna say that they're okay, but they're not okay. Right. But they're, they're not in a place, they're not in a place where they're, they're not victims and they don't feel Yeah. Like things that they're, they're, they're going to heal from this.

And I, and I, and I have to believe that a huge part of that, because it's for the whole family. Like everyone, a lot of it is because they chose, they chose to forgive despite, despite, despite just hor horrible, senseless violence. They chose to forgive.

Brent: You did not tell me that before this moment. And wow. I am, I am flabbergasted.

And Florida, and that's happened within the life of the show. Yeah. Wow. I'm so sorry. I'm so, so sorry. Thank you. Um, Jeff, if you don't mind, I'm, I have a third part. So I've talked about on the part of the Vic or on the part of the perpetrator, The part of the center, the part of the victim or the victim's family.

I'm gonna talk now about the part of the third party observer. Hmm. And that might be a little bit more you, so I'm gonna talk what I gained from the episode, and I want you to tell me if this rings true. Okay? And please feel free to correct anything I'm saying from reality. I'm just gonna tell you what I got from the episode.

Okay. Speaking of the idea of forgiveness, and in this case I wanna look at Sheridan specifically. Sheridan. Yeah. Sheridan was very able to forgive Brother Edward for what he had done in his past life, presumably because he'd never known Brother Edward when he was Chuck. He only ever knew him as Brother Edward.

So that was his dude. He, I, I, I dare say loved brother Edward. He was endeared to him like that was his guy. So he can forgive Brother Edward for being Chuck. Can he forgive Brother Malcolm for being who he was in murdering Brother Edward. And also if, if you're gonna throw the book at the victim's family, you know, the others that were in the garden, so to speak, can you do what they could not, you know?

Now, I don't know that the victim's families forgave brother Edward as much as they just said, we don't want to kill him now, right? Mm-hmm. . But that one guy said, no, I'm, I'm going to do this. Can he forgive? He meaning Sheridan? Can he forgive this new man? This now Brother Malcolm, who is not that guy from just a few minutes ago in the episode?

Can he forgive him there? And there's this really strong moment where Brother Malcolm extends his hand in greeting to Sheridan and Sheridan Recoils. And he kind of looks at 'em almost like he knows, but he doesn't. And it took she, in a moment, brother Theo had to say some words to him and in a real weird, awkward, kind of over the shoulder way, he reached out his hand.

which was a huge moment, yeah, a huge moment of forgiveness on Sheridan's part that was like, okay, he could get there. He could be that, that's the Star Trek piece. That they may not, they may not, but we as humanity, we can get there. Right. That forgiveness. Can you do what the other people can't? Can you see this new person?

You're a third party. You're not, you're not in the midst of this. You don't have a dog in this fight. You know? Can we look at somebody in another country? Can I look at your situation, Jeff? I have no, I have no clue what's going on out there. Can I see this person in that same light? You know, fortunately, uh, and I'm, I'm really happy to hear about the family and, and I can only imagine how that's for you as a leadership guy, how that's helping to lead you.

Mm-hmm. and the other surrounding members of that community that were in her orbit, your friend's orbit. Um, but I think it comes down to this idea. Vengeance will blind you. Rage will blind you. And truthfully, only forgiveness can free you. Sheridan says this great line, where does vengeance end and justice begin?

And that's a whole different thing that I'm not gonna go into. I said earlier I felt like this episode was more preachy than it was anything. And that, to me is the essence of a Star Trek message. I think this is a five Delta Star Trek episode through and through. Yeah, I

Jeff: totally agree. And you're right because I think as the third party observer, watching the people adjacent to the horror be able to give forgiveness, uh, it it almost, it almost, almost like what brother Theo said, like he, he very sternly said to Sheridan, right?

Forgiveness is a hard thing, but something ever to strive for. . When you see someone who's been impacted more than you by a thing, be able to do that, it kind of calls you on that. Like, who am I to not. You know, also extend this. And it does, it helps to heal what it does for that third party impacted person.

I'm not focused on the dude who did this horrible thing. I'm focused on my friend, you know, and, and like remembering great things we did together and hoping as a Catholic, you know, for, for her in a great place. It, it does that, it allows healing. And I think what I love and totally agree with your five delta rating is part of what started Star Trek, the philosophy, gene Roddenberry's philosophy of Star Trek was, we've outgrown religion.

You know, we're beyond the needs for that mythology and whatever. Yep. Star Trek is super religious , right? Not just Judeo Catholic, but even Islam and Hindu and other religions who at their core tell you just be a good person and help the people around you. Like if you boil down, I'll say, , 98% of active religions out there.

That's the core message. Just be cool, man. Like, just be cool. The rules change very per religion, but that's the message of Star Trek as well. So for, i, I, it's just for a Star Trek who is anti-religion, straight out and, you know, tries to make Mobo, no bones about it, but it's totally religious. And then Babylon five written by a nav vowed atheist in a way who's using religion as a way to impart these messages.

I just love how religious they are, even though they're not. It's great. Totally agree. Five Deltas.

Brent: One of the things I love Jeff is, is for a guy who is a sci-fi writer, a guy who, uh, you know, de, despite our own debates here, I think he clearly believes he was ripped off. And, and as do a lot of our, our listeners out there.

And that's, that's all. Okay. He can still go out and write something that feels very star treky at its core, and it's not, it's him. Mm-hmm. like it's him through and through coming out. Like that whole conversation to me, like I said, was his own internal dialogue earlier today and, and I love that he can still go out and do it his way.

Yeah. Jeff, what did you think as far as star furries go? I

Jeff: totally want to give this five star furries. I'm not going to. I want to, but a lot of that's because, um, of me and my background and, and how I saw this and I am a professional enough analyst, uh, and podcaster of things to say, I'm gonna acknowledge my bias and set it aside a little bit.

This was like we just talked about, I mean, just such a deep and rich exploration of forgiveness. We learned a lot more about the menari and their belief system and then deleted Kosh stuff. Like how cool is that? But you said it at one point earlier and I can't not get past it. This is a lot in a lot of rich conversation we could have.

But as far as like an an episode of television, is this good? Is this enjoy? It's okay. It's okay. It took a Star Trek message and did it in a very Babylon five way. So I am based on that, the, the giving it in a very Babylon five way. I'm gonna give this one four star theories. Fair

Brent: enough, fair enough. Uh, I can't argue with that.

If you would've given it five, I would not have argued with it and I'm not really allowed to honestly. Right,

Jeff: exactly. You, you gotta take it. Well then get ready to take it cuz this next, this next section. You don't get to argue with me either. Well,

Brent: absolutely not because just like last season, we are creating the absolute 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of the third season of Babylon.

Five. So Jeff, where do you put passing through guest? Our current ranking is number one, matters of honor. Number two, a day in the strife. And number three convictions.

Jeff: These are all great season threes had a really good start to it. Uhhuh, , these are all really good episodes and they're all really interesting. I, um, I recently listened to our episode on Matters of Honor again, cuz sometimes I listen to our episodes. I enjoy our show. It's, uh,

Brent: game film. Yeah, right. Exactly.

What, you know what I would say, Jeff, the, like, the mantra that we have, figure out what show you would wanna listen to and then make that show. Make

Jeff: that show exactly. But I, I went back and listened to it and it was a great episode. It was really good. I don't think any of the episodes so far have given us just the, the richness of this one.

Brett, I am going to call passing through Gethsemane our new number one episode. Wow.

Brent: All right. Well I'm not allowed to, uh, comment on it one way or the other, or at least counterman you and I'm not sure that I would, uh, disagree with you.

Jeff: Well, Brett, that's it for passing through Gethsemane. Next week. Next week, we like to play this game. If you're new to us, welcome. Hi. We like to play games here on Babylon five for the first time, and we like to play this game where we guess what the next episode is gonna be based only on the title. We don't look at thumbnails, we don't look at anything.

Next week we're gonna be watching the episode called Voices of Authority. So Brent, what do you think Voices of Authority is gonna be about?

Brent: Is this a Lincoln Park Music video? . Wow.

They had a song, voices of Authority. Oh, no. Points of Authority. Points of it. Points, yep. Points of Authority. Uh, voices of Authority. So this is the making of a Lincoln Park Music video, but it's like Lincoln Park's Great-great-grandchildren. No. Um, let's see here. Um, this feels like, so authority. I think we're getting back to earth.

Okay. President Clark, um, uh, maybe that chick that we saw with Morden, um, oh yeah. Like the Senate chick or whatever she was, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, uh, yeah, I, I think what's maybe gonna happen is they're gonna be sending conflicting orders to Babylon five. Um, maybe, or they're sending orders that Sheridan just doesn't wanna go through on.

Like, maybe that Ministry of Peace thing is, is amping up, is back again. You know, something like that. Uh, we might even get to see General Hague resurface. That'd be cool. I'd, I'd, yeah. I wanna know more of what's going on with him. There's this whole like movement that Sheridan's just a part of. I wanna hear about what else is going on out there with.

With Old General Hag and the rest of the people out there fighting against President Clark. How about you, Jeff?

Jeff: Well, you know, who has a lot of authority right now in the world of Babylon? Five Londo. Yep. The Sonari. Ooh, totally. Ooh, okay. But I, so Sonari have a lot of authority. Londo does not anymore. So I think that this is gonna be a shot from Lord Refa and the Emperor with Carta and kind of that crew that's still in, they're still in with Morden and whatever, Uhhuh,

They're gonna do something that really, uh, kind of puts Lando in his place a little bit. Checks that, checks that ego. Reminds him that now he's just the ambassador on Babylon five.

And I guess we're gonna find out right here next week. Thank you all so much for listening to our dissertation on, uh, Christianity and Modern Religions through the lens of Babylon five. Appreciate it very much, but honestly, thank you so much for joining us every week. It means so much to us. If you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you're listening to us.

If you're on YouTube, do the same. And stop by Apple Podcasts or good pods, pod chaser, wherever, ADA or, uh, audible is a great one as well, to go on and leave us a rating or review. We'll read it right here on the podcast, but until next time. Hey, Jeff.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah, bro. You wanna, you wanna see my, my life gills?

No,

Jeff: no. My energy. Yeah. Not even if you fried every synapse that I've got, peace, victory, and long life