The Fall of Night | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once it'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we never played the video game mass effect this is where babylon 5 is becoming babylon 5, that was great i love that 100 completely accurate definitive ranking of babylon i love it so much, we're officially into it jack, The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. My name is Jeff Akin. Brent and I, we used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, catching all of the little pieces. There's no possible way that we could have caught the first time around. But don't worry. Jeff and I are still doing the thing where we search for the messages. Now that we know what the show is actually about, we get a chance to watch for the messages, things that we didn't pick up on the first time around, or I don't know, things that we are now able to research and find out what the creator himself was trying to say without us over here trying to guess. Now, that being said, this is our second watch through. We have already seen it all the way through.

[1:20] That also means that for Jeff and I, anything from any point in the timeline from any part of the franchise is fair game for us to talk about. So consider this your spoiler warning. If you have not seen this show for the first time, stop what you're listening to watching right now and go back and do our first watch, which is completely spoiler free. Trust us. It is so much better that way. And when you get through the series, come back and join us here for the second one, because, Jeff, we are gleaning so much more. You say it all the time. What's your phrase? Babylon 5 is a show you can watch for the first time twice. Yep, absolutely. And we are in that first time watching it again because we're just seeing all sorts of stuff we never caught before. Brent, this week we're wrapping up Season 2. We're watching The Fall of Night. It's the finale of the second season. Do you – well, I remember. I remember on the first watch through the biggest thing, the two biggest things I remember, right? There's of course, we saw full kosh, big deal, handsome Squidward, right? Which is what I've called him forever since that time. And Kefir dies in absolutely fantastic fashion.

[2:28] I remember there's honestly a lot in this episode that just on memory doesn't jump up for me. I think I remember us talking about at the time that this didn't feel like this should be swapped with a long Twilight struggle as far as closing out the season. Because we're kind of like, hey, this was all right kind of a thing. And I'm hopeful that on the second watch, I think differently of it, or I'm reminded that, no, that's not what I thought at all, but that's kind of what I seem to remember about it. Do you recall what you remembered about it? I do, but I want to bounce off what you just said there though. This was also before you and I had picked up on the pattern that JMS uses. This was the pattern. Like this was the time that we're like, oh, this is what, this is, this is what happens. So the idea that none of his season finales, with the exception of sleeping light, none None of his season finales are this big moment. Well, God, I don't know. Zahadoom. Zahadoom's pretty something. Zahadoom's pretty something. But what was it that was two episodes before Zahadoom, though? Come on, Jeff. I know. Snap it out. This is your job. This is what you do. It is. It's a great episode, whatever it was. It was super good. Well, whatever. But even still, Zahadoom was a pretty big banger.

[3:49] But yeah, even like Chrysalis, like Chrysalis was not as good as Babylon Square. Exactly. Right. Fall of Night, not as good as Long Twilight Struggle.

[4:00] Zadoom, not as good as Unknown Episode that we can't think of right now, maybe. And Sleeping in Light is its own thing. Like sleeping in light is its own thing okay so let's back that up um what was uh objects at rest not as good as here objects at rest objects in motion it was it was better what was right before that was right before objects in motion yeah i should remember this and i just don't remember was it fall of sin that wasn't a fall of centaur prime was it the fall of centaur prime because i'll tell you fall of centaur prime was better than objects at rest yeah which object i liked objects at rest but uh shadow dancing shadow dancing um they're saying rock cried out was what came before zaha doom in season three which is great which is a great episode i i probably have to give the edge to zaha doom in that particular one though yeah and zaha doom i mean you had the explosion you had everything that has i mean climax i mean just peak of the show so yeah so in season five it was the wheel of fire wheel of fire objects in motion objects at rest which was pretty good but i'm gonna give objects at rest the are you on that one i think so i don't know i don't know regardless regardless this is just kind of the way he rolls so but i listened well did you talk about what you remembered you didn't talk about what you remembered i didn't uh here's what i remember the episode was awesome um i remember sheridan falling out of the spinny thing and everybody being like yeah that's gravity he's not falling it's just gravity.

[5:18] Uh certainly kosh um we get full frontal kosh in this one and uh i think i always forget about kefir dying in this one really but every time i think about kefir dying in this one i remember the dvd cover for the season i know and the only place where keffer got on the dvd cover was when he died which just felt so poetic to me from jms, I'm sorry for that guy, though. You know, he's just doing his job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, man, I'll tell you what, JMS ran him through a poll in the Lurker's Guide this week. Oh, really? Let's get to that. After, Brent, I went back and listened to our first-time podcast. Did you? Want to know what you actually thought about this one? I had no idea. What did I actually think about this one? Well, what we just talked about, right? That Twilight Struggle and this should have been flip-flopped. Yeah. But, yeah.

[6:08] I loved your line. We now know that Sheridan is actually really important to this whole thing. Which, I mean, in the moment, it made sense because we watched the lead get traded out, you know, essentially at the end of season one. What's going to happen here? Oh, okay, maybe he's the thing. But yeah, you really enjoyed this one. You were surprised that the Ministry of Peace came back. There's a whole Ministry of Peace storyline in this one. Is this the one where we get the Night Watch? The Night Watch is finally born? That watch has already been born. They've already been born. Okay. I guess I like this one, but I coined the phrase, the infection curve, where like the first 25 minutes of the episode, I was pretty bored. Okay. And then it just really got going and was fantastic.

[6:57] And my line on this one was, it was not the season ender I wanted, but the season ender that we deserved. Interesting. I'm not sure what I meant by that, but. Okay. Here's a question I'm going to ask. And this will be one of those we have to wait until we watch the episode and get at the end. Okay. And we can watch. We can answer this with fresh eyes here in just a moment. Could you have flip-flopped this with Long Twilight Struggle? That's a good question. Yeah. Because my guess is you probably could have. Like we could have had the Kosh reveal. We could have had all of this happen prior to the events of Long Twilight Struggle. And then put Long Twilight Struggle here and probably would have been okay. That's my guess. Let's find out at the end of this episode as we answer that. I said, there's a whole, uh, ministry of peace storyline in this one. And we kept asking the question about home guard. Where the heck is home guard in all of this? Yeah. Where is home guard? What's, what's home guard? Home guard is, um, the, the, that we have people everywhere. Ivanova's boyfriend. They were all, you know, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Was that the, the two, the two night dudes? Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, no, that was a whole different thing than nights. Oh, okay. Okay. But yeah, the home guard were the earth elitists, the earth first, right? Pretty sure I was war prayer. There's an incredible scene in this one with Veer and Lanier sitting at the bar. I remember that.

[8:12] My theory was that they're passing notes, like they're speaking in code, kind of getting stuff back and forth. You were very focused on this is where they launched the sidekick spinoff right here. Yeah. We're still waiting. Still waiting. Forget reboot, man. Give us the sidekick spinoff. Everybody. And make it animated so you don't have to worry about aging actors or stuff like that, like.

[8:36] It'd be great. Zach. We had some Zach stuff in this one. I had a theory that he would be full Nightwatch early in season three. Like he's going to be the bad guy on the station representing Nightwatch. We were still on the home guard thing. And so we thought that Nightwatch was going to have Zach. And then there's a lady in CNC who we see do a thing at one point. And we're pretty sure she's either home guard or Nightwatch. So we like, they're going to start placing people in really key places. You though had a hope, not a theory, but a hope that Zach got pulled off the station and would be trained as a ranger. That would have been cool. I still maintain that would have been cool. That would have been cool. Zach as Marcus. Nope.

[9:20] Nope. Nope. Marcus can do his own thing. All right. Just Zach is a ranger. He'd be a little bit of a buffoon ranger, but he'd also be really cool. He could do the beer storyline as a ranger. No, I'm going to tell you what. zach would have made a 10 times better ranger than the linear ever did uh amen amen he was not good do you remember the character wells yeah so he's in this episode as in frank sure or hg hg yeah hg was yeah it's good but you uh you wanted him to become a permanent fixture on the station because he was so good your exact quote a naroon yes uh-huh your quote was he's such a great smooth villain yeah now brent you have had a fear as no wait a minute wait a minute are you still talking about wells yes okay great.

[10:07] You've had a fear that as we're moving our way through Stargate SG-1, that I'm going to stumble upon some references that you dropped that might give some stuff away where I know just enough but not enough. Yes. As you and I have gotten through Stargate with where we are and as we're re-listening to our first show where I was dropping stuff left and right without you ever knowing that you're going to put something – what happened in this one? All right. So this is where I think there's stuff coming in Stargate that I don't know yet. You said that Wells has the Woolsey effect.

[10:44] Oh, yeah. He creates conflict that makes the whole show better. You went on to say there's an unnamed change. There's an unnamed show. Like you guys, oh, there's this unnamed show that has a change in leadership. And the guy that was the antagonist ends up leading the group and it leads to the best season of the show. So now I'm stuck in this place of being like, does that Woolsey? Is there a thing that happens with this? And then, I don't know, but Woolsey wasn't in it. I don't know. So now I'm in this weird spot where I don't know what to think. That's a great spot for you to be, and I'm going to say no comment from here on. That's the right answer, I think. Yeah. But yeah, your whole goal with Wells, though, is you want him to be on the station permanently where you have Sheridan that's essentially like the military commander, and then Wells, who's like the political commander of the station, and they have to work together. That would have been good. That would have been so good. I love what we got. Yeah, right? I'm not saying JMS should have changed it, but had that been an alternate reality, that would have been good. Would have been really cool. In the prior episode, Sebastian dropped a line where he said, the Vorlon simply are.

[11:52] So we went into a pretty lengthy conversation about the burning bush and how the burning bush said that I am. Who are you? I am. Sure. Right? If you are, you am. And so our theory came out that it doesn't matter what your religion or your faith is. It's the Vorlon. It's all the same and it's just the Vorlon. Which led to a conversation about Londo and what he did or did not see, which ended with me singing a Perry Grip song about Centauri appendages raining from the sky. Wow. Yep. Yep. You have to go back and listen for that.

[12:28] There's a newscast at the end of this episode about Keffer and some of the footage he got. And you were really adamant that this is going to be the foundation of an ongoing story. Like this news clip is going to come back a lot. It's really going to lay the ground. What you, you nailed it in the, was it the gathering or was it midnight on the firing line? It was one of those two where there was just this news thing at the very end talking about president Santiago. And you're like, that's going to mean something. So I was just trying to pull you dude. It's fair. I mean, it really does have a lot to do with stuff and sure. I'm interested to see what it was. Do you know what it was? Like, did we talk about it? like do you know what it was or are you like you're gonna have to go back and double check to see what oh no no we're gonna watch the newscast and like yeah i know it has stuff that happens moving forward i'm just like in my mind i don't remember exactly if it was like oh this is the thing or if it just kind of let other stuff happen got it so ivanova ivanova closes us out in this episode i have a t-shirt that i've worn that has the b5 sword logo yeah and i got it here during season two on the first time.

[13:37] And so she does this whole narration where she's like, this sucks. There's no hope for peace anymore. It's all like this is where it's the end of everything. And so I then said, oh, they're going to replace the olive branch logo with this sword logo at some point. And you, because it shows her lighting candles on the menorah at the end. And so you talked quite a bit about the miracle that, uh, you know, of the, the, the oil that lasted, that led to the celebration of Hanukkah and how her lighting those candles was really a message to us as the viewer that moving forward, our good guys, our heroes are going to need a miracle, um, to bring lasting light forward, man, that's insightful. It is very insightful. That's really good. That's insightful. That's pretty good. It's kind of cool listening to our first time stuff every now and then. like we have some really like oh wow that was really sometimes we say smart stuff just you know sometimes you know who else says smart stuff though is uh joe michael straczynski and you my friend went looking for stuff that he had to say about this one you already alluded to some stuff around the keffer things so what else did you find on there man he has so much to say but a lot of times he's just repeating himself again and again just saying different words isn't that the thing i found that yeah going back you go into lurker's guide and you're like oh my god there's so much but it's like two things.

[15:03] Just again and again and again and again. Yep. So that's a little bit of this one. But I do have a couple of notes. This is not an exhaustive search of everything. This is just the things that I find that were pertinent or interesting. Speaking of pertinent and interesting, Janet Greek. Jeff, do you know who Janet Greek is? She's director of many, many episodes. Director of many, many episodes. She hasn't been directing that many episodes here in season two. And that's because she's been out sick for much of the season. But she is back for this episode.

[15:30] Big banger of an episode. he's trying to get her back to at least five or six episodes a season we'll see what happens going forward and by that i mean we're gonna not track no at all no they might notice it one more time yeah so the structure speaking of the structure the narrative structure that he uses for this particular episode um it's kind of a favorite of his he really likes using this particular structure it's one that he also used in coming of shadows as well kind of starts out really slow infection would be another one see if you can name these episodes where he does this you started off really slow lulls you into a sense that this is going to be a really ordinary story nothing major and then he just whacks you over the head really hard when you're not expecting it those are the wham episodes right so that's to to what you were saying earlier the the infection effect you know that's that's it it's just whatever so he intentionally he loves boring you out of your mind for 25 minutes and then making everything awesome you could make everything awesome for 42 minutes joe and we would not be bad that'd be fine it'd be okay although it's good i mean these are good episodes that we're talking about here that he does this with absolutely um this episode was up for a hugo award um.

[16:49] Much like, what was it, Twilight, Long Twilight Struggle, I think it was? I think so. A couple of them, actually. I think it probably killed itself, Babylon 5 killed itself because there were a number. Well, it happened with other episodes, and this was up for a Hugo episode, or for a Hugo Ward, against another Babylon 5 episode.

[17:07] And apparently they gave him the choice of having them both up for the nomination or withdrawing one of the two nominations so as not to split the vote. And he chose to withdraw this episode as opposed to the other episode. So the other episode that won, I think it was Long Twilight Struggle won because it wasn't splitting the vote with this one, but it was there. Talking about Jeff Conaway, about our guy Zach, he says they are consistently giving him more and more to do in each show because he's a very gifted actor. There are some moments in this episode that are going to knock the word mediocre out of anyone's mouth. I like that. So I'm interesting to see what is going to happen with him today that's going to be like, whoa, dude. Well, it makes sense though because like from our conversation, we both like saw future stuff happening for him in a big way, you know, and so –.

[18:00] And we loved him from go and never stopped. Right, right. I mean, we loved him so much it made us forget about Lou. Lou, exactly. Which is – Lou is great. We loved Lou. Lou's not Zach. We loved Lou. Someone asked a question. Was Kosh weak? Now, this is going to go to a conversation you and I have had quite a bit. So buckle in. Okay. Was Kosh weak? I mean, after all, he allowed himself to be poisoned by a Minbari, remember in The Gathering. Yeah. And to be attacked by Borden. He needed a vicar to probe Talia's mind, and he needed Sebastian in last week's episode to test the Lynn. Kosh rarely does anything directly, preferring to use others. Kosh is just sort of self-righteous. To which JMS's response is, thanks. Finding Kosh slightly righteous is pretty much exactly what I wanted you to happen. So congratulations firing on the right cylinders. There you go. That makes sense. Now, speaking of that, was he really poisoned in the gathering? You and I have talked about that. How was he poisoned? He had the hand. How did you slap that he's he's just this being of light whatever all that sort of stuff does that finally get addressed here well he they someone asked if he was just pretending if he was faking it or was he really poisoned did it actually happen and his answer is no he wasn't faking he says you need to understand that they're meaning vorlons.

[19:15] Vorlon's appearance as a being of light is only how they want to appear. They are life forms, just like you and I are life forms, and they can be poisoned if someone knows the right combination of substances. To further go into that, what kind of an angel is Kosh? Call him an angel. What kind of an angel is Kosh? He says, actually, Kosh is not an angel. Not really. Kosh is what you see when you look at him. All right. Okay. If a Drazi looks at them, they see something different than what a Mbari sees. Yes, it's a being light, but is that what they actually are or is that how we have been programmed to react when we see him? As Sheridan said, we have been manipulated to seeing them in a certain way, to seeing a certain image. So we are not necessarily seeing what they are, but what they want us to see. Okay. Okay. Right. A question was asked, would a Hindu or a Buddhist or something like that even here on earth, not just not just as a human but even her on earth would they see him differently and yeah there would be some amount of very variation among humans though not in terms of beliefs that have come along post vorlon influence okay okay right there's a point where they stopped, right right this sort of thing actually gets implanted at an almost genetic level now how much do you and i know because this got me thinking the vorlon's manipulate.

[20:34] Dna and let it go to which you and i had a question way back when we were talking about the formation of telepaths back when we did season five the first time around did the vorlons come in and just like manipulate some dna in humans and then just let it go and let nature take its course or do they continually come in and change human code to to create new uh telepaths and the answer to me really seems to be very clear here no no they they made an intervention and yeah just let it go and let nature take its course. Which I just, I find it interesting that this is a part, this is actually a genetic engineering, not just a psychological one. Yeah, it is interesting. Now the more people who see the Vorlon in different ways, then the longer that they have to maintain that visual.

[21:20] The greater restraint it is on them because they have to conform to whatever other people are seeing. Yeah. Which I find very, very interesting. It makes me think about deconstruction of falling stars when we see humanity has evolved to that point. And it's interesting to me that if they can, if they can be whatever it is they want to, if they can be seen as whatever it is they want to be seen, that kind of gives us the, um, we have the understanding that we've never actually seen a Vorlon. Like we don't know what they actually look like. And so it's interesting to me that humanity chooses when we get to that level of evolution to mimic the Vorlon, right? So we go to an energy-based being, we use an encounter suit that looks a little bit differently. It almost makes you wonder if the Vorlon are actually emulating some other first one that was before them. It came through and there's just this whole thing where it's almost like They just think that's what it is to evolve to that level, even though it's just a choice one race made one time. I'm going to give this as an example at great risk because I know there's a lot of taboo surrounding this topic.

[22:27] We have another example of this. And to me, it helps me wrap my brain around what this is. Within the Harry Potter series. In the wizarding world, there is a creature called a boggart. Okay. Now, boggarts live in a – they usually live in an enclosed place. Nobody knows what a boggart actually looks like because whenever they open the door and they look at a boggart, what they see is what this – and it's different for each individual person. They see whatever they fear the most. That boggart appears to them as basically whatever they fear the most, whatever the person is that's looking at them. Now, it turns out, and I've looked this up, boggarts are not unique to this particular version of it. Boggarts are actually very much a part of English folklore and English mythology.

[23:09] And this idea that they appear in different forms and various forms based on whatever the person is that's looking at them is very much a part of the lore and the mythology of it. So I think that it was – the other one just added it's what you fear is kind of where it goes. That was just a change that was made. So the idea that it's a being that basically looks like whatever it is you think it should look like, and that's not actually what it looks like at all. We just don't know. Like, we actually don't know. So when we see that angel, that's not what a Vorlon looks like. That's just – he describes it as the image that sits between your retina and your optic nerve. Okay. All right. That's all it is. You're not actually seeing the Vorlon. There's some chatter in the council chambers about the episode in season four where Kosh and Kosh 2.0 fight. Lorien gives a piece of them, you know, does the whole thing. But we see them as like almost energy squid sort of a things. And I would – and the chatter is saying that's what they look like. I would counter that that's what we think they look like. It's not what we know they look like. It's what we saw.

[24:13] Well, and it's what you and I saw because we're Trekkies. and they look like those Encounter of Farpoint squids. Sure, sure. Okay, so that's really a lot of the other stuff was just answering questions about like Kefir and, different things like that. So we'll, we'll bypass a lot of that. Jeff, let's get into an episode. Oh yeah, let's do it. Okay. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. Every episode is someone's first, and it makes some sense that you may have chosen this one. Who doesn't want to see handsome Squidward for the first time, right? But for all of you that are here, let's kind of go over what's about to happen. Brent and I are going to watch this episode, the fall of night for the second time right here, right now with you. We're going to pull it up. You're going to see it down below. We're going to watch this episode. We're going to comment on it while it's playing.

[25:00] We might dive into some messages, conversations, some observations that we have, things like that. If you want to see that, right? If you're watching this right now, you're going to see that kind of cut up edited version that you see on YouTube. You'll see that reaction style video on there. But if you're watching this on our Patreon page, you're seeing the full and unedited version of this. And you can see that at patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you're listening to us on the auto podcasting app, hello, good news for you. Jeff and I are going to have lots of conversations while this episode is going on and we are not going to leave you behind. So you will have all of that as a part of your listening experience. And then we will certainly meet you on the other side where we will hear all the messages and we'll rank the episode and we'll do all that sort of stuff that makes the show a whole lot of fun. And so, Jeff, let's watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. The Drazi and Pak Mara ambassadors are waiting in your office. They say it's absolutely urgent. Oh. How's the squad doing? Good, but they should be better. I want all our fighters put through training exercises three times a week from now on. Everything that's going on, we need them in top fighting condition. I'll see to it personally. And if they don't get any better, I'll start issuing live ammo. It should have a very inspirational effect.

[26:17] Are you sure about this ambassador? I think they're like, seriously? Yes. I'm sure you do not miss. The centauri have invaded both our territories they have taken one of our listening posts they say they have liberated it we hear they are preparing to attack other races other worlds war is spreading soon perhaps they even attack you.

[26:40] Tetrazi guy is just so confrontational project in every last always yeah they're attacking some of our stuff you know one of our listening posts a little bit but you know they're going to attack Like, you. It's like, let me escalate this thing real quick for you. Right. Well, I made a full report to Earth, Doom. They could ignore the problem as long as it was just the Nyrn and Centauri fighting it out. But with the other races getting involved, they're still going to ignore it. We just had an Earth Force ship carrying a VIP come through the gate. It's Frederick Lance from the Ministry of Peace. On my way. Maybe somebody actually read my report for a change. I remember this thing. They played this really well. Not this, but the VIP.

[27:28] It's good to see him again. We'll see him again in Crusade. to interview the Centauri ambassador and those of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds whose territory has been infringed Already done As long as we're here I'd like to check in on the local members of the Night Watch if that's all right No, it's not a problem. Have assigned Commander Ivanova as your lead. I feel like Roy Dutris on here, I think that's how you say his name, Dutris, just brings this gravitas, you know, like legitimizes the franchise. We can stand by forever, you know, our voice has to be heard. It never hurts to get a first-hand look but to see what's really going on out here. Just to be sure we're doing the right thing. I swore I proved something was out there like nothing we've ever seen before. I tried looking for it on my own, but the captain told me to lay off. I wonder if he got his pages for this, like, as he was walking on set. Because he almost looks like he's reading off of a cue card. He's got cue cards out there, yeah.

[28:24] Maybe. Reading one Narn heavy cruiser. She's hailing us. Put her through. This is war leader Nakal. We were on deep patrol evaluating potential targets when the Centauri struck homeworld. Since then, we have been fighting for our lives. That's Zaid Massani right there. Robin Sachs. That guy's so many different roles. Right? But with the support of others, we may one day help liberate homeworld. Have you met Massani yet? We must remain free. Mass Effect. And Babylon 5 is our only hope. I don't think so. We have expended the last of our energy in getting here. We request sanctuary.

[29:06] Right now we're giving them equipment to make repairs. After that's done, formally notify Mr. Lance. Mr. Lance? He's here from the Ministry of Peace back home. He's looking into the Centauri problem. Then Earth is ready to take sides? I sure hope so. Do you think I could speak to him? I don't see why not. He'll be in the council chambers till seven thank you captain i'll go and prepare just the build up of it i mean they're just setting it up so beautifully right now just configure your sensors to look for the signature emissions it's there sooner or later you'll find it, I wonder how many times they had to do the take to get him to actually catch the thing. I'm going to go with six. I like that. We'll call that canon. We'll print that in the Lurker's Guide. Well, thank you again, Ambassador. Brent Allen says.

[29:56] I've contacted Earth Dome, and they have authorized me to proceed. Proceed with what? I'm here to sign a non-aggression treaty with a Centauri. Before I leave here, there will be an Earth-Centauri alliance that will guarantee peace for us we will at last no peace in our time at last no peace in our time earth is under no direct threat right now we're not at war you know i can remember the first time i put on this uniform i remember this this is great i felt 10 feet tall like i could take on the whole galaxy before breakfast now i look at it it's just cloth i don't know what it means anymore what it stands for i'm sure we had a ton of conversation about that right there absolutely maybe 2260 is the year that we redefine it make it mean something again that's the whole next series yep season like merry christmas happy hanukkah this is a thing i thought was going to be a really big deal moving forward this was yeah the gift it's a it's a piece of the ship of the ship right Yeah, that they blowed up.

[31:24] He just gave him the I'm going through a tunnel, right? I'm gonna find out the thing. Here, come on. Them as long as they're in our jurisdiction i'm not about to break that promise launch zeta squad good for him he's awesome but he doesn't have that authority anymore captain what are you doing i've just heard the treaty hasn't been announced or formalized yet i promised them sanctuary and once again you're jeopardizing everything i've worked for i'm sorry will someone please escort mr lance off the command deck i'm not sure how mr lance got onto the command deck in the first place to be honest with you it seems like it's the launch sequence jeff you love it oh i love it so much i need more launch sequences they're coming you got them ambassador malari through captain sheridan the narn warship is under my protection i have guaranteed the right of free passage once its engines are repaired it will leave babylon 5 space after that it's no business of ours you tell Tell your cruiser to withdraw at once. They open fire on any of our fighters. I will respond with deadly force. It's honestly very reasonable. Send a copy of that last transmission to the Centauri Battlecruiser. Then activate defense grid.

[32:38] Yeah, baby. Can you move toward the jump gate? Yes, but not very quickly. Give me the best you can. Yo, the soundtrack is just slowly building, layering. Moveings intercept. If you are fired upon, return fire. Fire at will. Confirm Babylon control Heat him up people Close blast doors I love that Sound like he's got a proton pack on his back Right Heat him up We've got an energy spark, why are you shooting at me i love the scene because the military chatter is so accurate.

[33:17] Yeah look at that we both were like the station's gonna get jacked up pretty good here isn't it yep like they got to spend the first couple episodes of next season like preparing yeah we talked about that like they better be repairing that thing yeah ben and the council chambers chat the fx have come a long way from season one Hey, I was just thinking, man, that's not bad for a bunch of Amiga computers, huh? Pressing massive damage to the Centauri vessel. I'd scramble all medical ships. There's still time.

[33:59] Not good. Mm-hmm. What was I supposed to do? Stand by and let them blow this place to bits? You destroyed a Centauri warship. You're damn straight. Mm-hmm. And if I hadn't, you and I wouldn't be here to have this conversation. They fired first, Mr. Lance. I have an obligation to protect this station. I didn't start the fight, but I finished it. He also didn't start the fire. General Order 47. 47! Personnel are required to answer distress calls and assist any vessel. In the spirit of our newly formed treaty, we then could have turned over the warship. We have reasoned with them, and they have shown great patience. Now, despite their loss, and given the fact that their ship did fire first, they're willing to drop the whole matter in exchange for an apology. Despite the fact that it was their fault. You're doing my job like hell. This isn't a request, Captain. It's a direct order from the Joint Chiefs and the President. Now, you have two choices. Apologize or disobey a direct order from your superiors. As this would be an act of insubordination you would be removed from the opposition and someone more reasonable Would be in to your theory. They really are seeding wells being on the station We've arranged for a meeting of the various ambassadors in one hour in the Zen garden as settings go it's better suited to offering the olive branch and more public.

[35:16] I suppose this it's actually something we've been talking about for a while because we talked real early on when Sinclair was still on the show about how almost inappropriate is that you have military commander of a military station. Yeah. Also acting as the earth diplomatic representative at the political side of things. Right.

[35:38] Those two things should should not be the same. Now, we later get it right when Lockley comes aboard and you've got Lockley commanding the station. You got shared and run the I. Hey. um but yeah yeah yeah like it makes more sense to have someone else come in to be the civilian slash political leader and you let him be the the military guy he really does make sense you know and to my reference earlier that i'm not going to elaborate on for you at all you have a military person that we already love know and are established with and then you have somebody else who comes in who represents the exact opposite side of the coin you introduce so much conflict you introduce so much drama and guess what drives stories guess what makes for good tv right you know like why is it that londo and jakar works so well don't say it's just because andreas and peter are phenomenal actors which they are but they have so much conflict between the two of them even when they are buddies they still have conflict between the two of them this introduces some some extra conflict into the show which would only be good for the show exactly unfortunately they don't go that route i also like fortunately we got what we got though so actually like suzanne in the council chambers chat and just like maybe your diplomat should diplomat what is that diplomat yeah maybe your why can't it be a diplo womant right i mean why you got to be like that dude it's got to put it in its little box or.

[37:02] Says, maybe you shouldn't have a diplomat whose nickname is Nukem. Just wants to feel power between his legs, you know what I'm saying? Right? Strange love, baby. Yeehaw! Oh, I wish I had that. Or a little Steve Buscemi.

[37:15] Apology is already written. No need. You can phrase the apology anyway. He's so proud of himself. It's the fault that counts. Retrino emissions up 8%. This is Zeta Leader, breaking off to investigate.

[37:32] I'll catch up. Confirmed. No, you won't. Spoiler alert. I love this scene. We both loved this scene. Dude, the dress unis look so good. I apologize. Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry we had to defend ourselves against an unwarranted attack. I'm sorry that your crew was stupid enough to fire on a station filled with a quarter million civilians, including your own people. And I'm sorry I waited as long as I did before I blew them all straight to hell. Do the Centauri go to hell? I don't know. As with everything else. They become a god or they don't, I guess. It's the thought that counts. It's the thought that counts, he says. Yeah, I'm with Ben. I regret that he never actually gets to give that speech also. I would have been epic. Gotcha. Mm-hmm. Computer, follow an identified ship. Begin recording.

[38:28] It's kind of nuts their computers aren't just always recording they should have somebody going around with hors d'oeuvres and drinks that's a powerful scene though londo all alone.

[38:44] You hated this music no sheridan hey i'm the leader of this thing heading to apologize Walking through by myself? Yes. I hate every single time we see this. It still bugs me. There's no way he should be walking by himself through that. He has way too much going on. He has way too much responsibility. He's got to have way too much safety issues. You shouldn't be here. I heard what happened. I thought if I spoke on Sheridan's behalf. That may not be wise. I still have a few supporters in the League. They will listen. You're great, Jakar, but maybe now's not the time. Read the room. I understand. You still have to hide behind the plant. Oh, oh, oh. Shadow. Crap. Not right there. That is the image they put of Kefir on the DVD cover, and that's great. It's a splash of his skull. I'm just going to sit here in my dress blues, notice that Centauri sitting there. How are you doing? He should be in there. I'm sorry. You're an idiot. So this scene, beat for beat, from the original plan of the show. Yeah? Don't you remember? Yeah. Remember how good we were talking about the effects earlier? Yeah. This one's not getting it.

[40:01] It's probably just really when you have to combine live action with a computer, those two things are much, that's a lot harder to do when you've got to combine live with a computer. Green screen tech was quite nascent at the time yeah i like how even the bomb has like the hairstyle oh that's a good point open shuttle doors so there's quite a long explanation in the lurker's guide as to the scientific stuff of whether or not sheridan is falling what his gravity speed is like all that stuff we need at 60 miles an hour. If we can't catch him, he'll be killed by the impact. You won't have time. They're rotating at 60 miles an hour. When he's coming down. You must do it now. He doesn't even hesitate that line got me more than anything else right like you know you know what's at stake you know how important this is you know what's at stake and i still don't feel like they ever came back to that uh at least in a satisfactory manner you're gonna show sheridan from above and like this is a repeat like that shows an earlier scene but they're really emphasizing the movement of the of the the garden down below.

[41:28] Valeria okay i'm gonna play this whole scene just watch it unbroken and then just pay attention to just kind of the uh the visual storytelling that happens okay because i have some thoughts okay, so i feel like that might not be kosh i mean it is It is, right? It is. But just the way that they tell the story visually, like it shows the little thing coming off. It shows her looking. And then there's just this angel all of a sudden. I feel like it would have been better if there was some transfer out of the encounter, something to make it visually apparent. Kosh is leaving his encounter suit and this is Kosh. But it's just kind of like if this was filmed in the 70s, if this was 70s sci-fi, this would be Maximilian the robot just all of the sudden being standing over the black hole. How did you even get there? I don't know. That never bothered me before, but watching the way this comes out, it's just like, it's random angel. I don't get it.

[42:56] Second time we had a big reaction to this we saw it the first time do you have any different not as impressive the second time not for me no yeah the the reveal when you don't know what it is is huge the reveal when you know what it is is it's a thing it's just a thing because we know what it is and we know that it's not just what it is but we know where it goes and what they do with the It admittedly, while still being really cool, and when we think about it, we go back to the original watch where we first discovered it had our minds blown. Yeah. But the truth is, in this moment right here, it is far less overwhelming than it was the first time. That's a good word. That's a good word. It's very just, we're just whelmed now. Yeah. I would say we're overwhelmed. We're just whelmed. Yeah, I think I'm stuck with, like one, we talked about the effects, and this was a big use of the person against green screen effects that weren't great the the the reveal of kosh was done in a in a way that i i would have liked to have seen done differently yeah but where my mind is stuck is we see droshala we see jalan and literally it's the exact same person just wearing a different helmet yeah.

[44:15] Really? Everyone is just an angel body that's going? I don't know. And I get it. I get it. But if that's what the Vorlon have programmed into people to see, they basically have a template. Right? Yeah. Hey, make your head look like their head and then have wings and a body. I would just like to point out, and this is more for our YouTube folk than it is for our audio podcasters, but for our audio podcasters, I am currently sitting in front of a green screen, at least half of a green screen. Half of my thing is real, and the other half is a green screen. My green screen is a whole lot more effective. It really is. For my little setup than theirs is. That's sad. It is 30 years later. It is. When we first came in here and did it, the image that I have behind me right now just looks like another part of the room of the house. I look like I'm just sitting in a part of my house, and there's the living room with like, man, Brent's bougie. He's got a nice house back there. recording in the middle of the day that big steinway in the back like right this place has been blessed i do love that they follow up on that what did you see.

[45:22] We questioned that quite a bit. Was he just saying that, or did he actually see nothing? Nothing. We know now that he saw nothing, because he doesn't believe in anything. Or his angle was bad, and he just couldn't see. It was the end of the Earth year 2259, and the war was upon us. As anticipated a few days after the Earth-Centauri Treaty was announced, the Centauri widened their war to include many of the non-aligned worlds.

[45:48] I think this is the moment JMS was talking about with Jeff Conaway. He did a lot of acting with his face and just his walk. Yeah. We came to this place because Babylon 5 was our last best hope for peace. When our ship encountered a distress beacon attached to an Earth Force recording device, these images released exclusively to ISN were found on that recording. Strategic analysts in EarthDome have indicated they don't know who this new race might be.

[46:16] To find out i love how that goes off like that yeah all right brent that was fall of night for the second time you asked a question heading into this and i think it's a good question for us to kick this discussion off with could this have gone before the long twilight struggle and had that as the season closer instead okay i i think logistically it's a no um because in long twilight struggle something was going on that would conflict with the story if we flipped them back and forth i don't remember what it was i want to say it was something with how the narn centauri war was going back in that particular episode but even that i will say does not take a lot of dialogue to fix or even just moving parts to a different particular episode you know the main thrust of what was going on with with long twilight struggle i feel like could have shifted now all of that being said i think this was a good ending to the season this is a solid it's not a cliffhanger no but it makes me want to come back and find out what happens next it gives me some solid uh conclusion on the season i feel like this this has it feels like it has come to a solid close and it makes me want to watch the next which is what it's supposed to do yeah i feel like the the narn centauri war has to be done for this episode to work because like that because of The whole, like, the crux of it all is, so they've beaten the Narn into submission.

[47:43] And now they're going and attacking other planets, other races, and that's the piece. But I couldn't agree more. The last three minutes of this episode is the perfect way to end this. To date, this has been a... So we talk about the difference between Star Trek and Babylon 5, and that Star Trek presents a hopeful... Did present a hopeful, optimistic view of the future. Babylon 5 does not. Or we would say, I liked how we would say this. Star Trek shows us the future that is possible. Babylon 5 shows us what it takes to get there.

[48:20] But this is the moment that we have where it's like, oh, this is bad. Like they have lost full stop. And yeah, I'm eager to dive into the next episode. And I do think, I watched that news clip at the end. And we also wanted to see, is that a thing that became a big deal? I don't think that it does become a big deal, but I did hear it differently. They said, you know, Earth Dome officials have committed to, you know, determining what this thing is. Brett, they already know what it is. Do they? They're already in league with the shadows. They've got the one. Some are. Some are. Not everybody. I would say the government is, as a couple of people. Right. But like they are, they've already found the shadows on Mars. They found the ship on Mars. They're aware of that. They've been working with Morden now for a little while. So I think like, yeah, earth home's all over it. Cause they already know. I have a question for you that we don't normally ask in these. Who would you say from an acting standpoint, acting character, character standpoint in this thing was the MVP of this episode? Oh, I do this on another show. We do it in VPs. In this episode, MVP, I feel like I know who you're going to pick, and I'm trying to decide if I agree or not. Okay. I can tell you who it's not. It's not Keffer. I mean, he's in the – no, it's not. It's not Keffer. No. No. MVP of the episode?

[49:46] I'm going to tell you I think the MVP of this episode is Bruce Boxliner, is John Sheridan. Yeah? The way he sticks up for his principles, he does what he has to do. Nobody else would have done that. When he makes the decision to stand up for that Narn ship, he does that knowing he's – knowing full well what he's going into and what's going to happen. And he accepts the personal responsibility for that call. Mm-hmm. You know? And he succeeds. And when they talk back to him, he stands square-shouldered. He stands resolute. He's good to go. And he walks out of here still in command of the station. That being said, my guess for you, just tell me if I'm right, is you think it was Wells. I do. I do very much so. Now tell me why. So I think that – Tell me why. Ain't nothing but a heartache. Tell me why. Ain't nothing but a mistake. Tell me why. So it was Wells. It was Wells. I'm like, I think it was. I'm like, it was Wells.

[50:47] He was like a snake in everything that was going on in this whole episode. And he was a snake in a way where like you can't point at any one thing and be like, oh, he's a jerk. Right? I mean, it's tone, it's inflection, it's delivery, but with everything you're like, yeah, he's right. Right. But where I'm ultimately placing it is that you, and when we watched this the first time, we're like, Wells is going to be a permanent fixture on this station. Brent, he made himself. Like, that is the case that was made in this episode. Wells needs to be the commander of Babylon 5 heading into season three, based on what we saw in this episode. That's huge.

[51:28] And he should be. Like, by all accounts... Everything that's happened, he should be installed as the new, if not commander of Babylon 5, he should be installed as the president of Babylon 5 or something of that nature. Like, no, not even. He's got to be like the head of, like the emissary to, or the, yeah, like he can't necessarily be over military matters, but. Political officer. Very much. For sure. As a Julie Masante, we'll meet here in a handful of episodes. Is that Chicky? That is chicky. Yeah. That's chicky. That's chicky. I also really want to express my love for the council chambers chat who are calling out the copyright claim we're going to get for you and me singing that thing. We nailed it that well. No. And I'll tell you why we won't get it. Because we didn't use the recording. You and I, Jeff, we actually now own that recording. So you can, you can, we own the recording. Yeah. And it's a better recording, I think, than that.

[52:29] Yes. Yeah. You and I sing better than... Backstreet Boys. I was going to say Justin Timberlake, but that wasn't right. He's in the right boy band. Yeah, he's in sync. Wrong band, man.

[52:39] We didn't talk about it during the episode. I want to check in with you. Did you get any real messages out of this one?

[52:45] I liked this one. Ivanova gave Sheridan a gift. Yes. This gift of a black star, the piece of the black star. And I wrote this down. Sometimes you need a reminder of what you have already done in order to have the courage to attempt what you haven't done yet, you know, or, and, and you could, you could reword this in any way. You need to be reminded of who you are so that you can be who you're going to become. You need to, but there, there's, there's just something about saying, Hey, look at this thing that, you know what it is?

[53:20] Um, uh, wise man, I know once referred to it as the left hand. Okay. All right. And your left hand is all the things you have already done. All right. then you have your right hand and your right hand is all the things that you have left to do and a lot of times you need what's in your left hand in order to accomplish that which is in your right hand and sheridan very literally needed a piece of this black star he needed the black star in his left hand as a man who stood up and did what everybody else said was going to be impossible, a man who is in the throes of saying hey this thing this this uniform that i once really valued is now just cloth and i don't care really anymore yeah and you're going to have something you have And now, I mean, now, Jeff, you talk about major foreshadowing because you and I know that that uniform does come off and they get a new uniform and things get redefined. And so major foreshadowing there that that's going to happen.

[54:16] But still, you need what's in your left hand in order to accomplish that which is in your right hand, those things which are coming to do. And I think that's true for all of us. I think it's very true for all of us. So that's really what I pulled out that I think might be a little bit different from the first time. How did you, Jeff? Did you get anything? I did. Stick to your word. Your word matters.

[54:36] Sheridan offered those Narns sanctuary. and at the risk of his career stuck to his word all the way to the point where I have to believe that had he completed that shot, that little tram trip and gotten to the garden, he would have given a galaxy class apology that would have, he would have played ball. I said, I would do this and he would, and he would work that in. I said, I would do this thing. I did this thing and I'm sorry that it led to a conflict with you, but I just think he had such incredible integrity in this episode that that carries that carried it for me in this one this week brent we are going to complete the ranking all of the episodes of the second season of it is time like you can set your clock here in about four minutes the definitive objectively correct ranking of these episodes the second season will exist it will be out there and brent you are closing it out, here by placing the fall of night. I'm going to go with our top five to start. In number five, we have Confessions and Lamentations. Number four, The Geometry of Shadows. Number three, The Coming of Shadows. Number two, In the Shadow of Zaha Doom. And in the top spot, The Long Twilight Struggle.

[55:53] Brent, where does The Fall of Night land in this ranking? Okay. Well, it's not going to be above Long Twilight Struggle. It's not going to be in the shadow of zahaduma it's not even necessarily going to mean coming of shadows now we get into an episode like geometry of shadows which rose significantly it did it was number 15 in our final ranking the first time i'm looking at this i don't know that i actually think geometry of shadows is better than confessions and lamentations yeah which is which is above it and then we have an episode like now for a word which also rose significantly because it's just such a masterful well-done episode the way they shot it it was number 19 the first time was it really where was this episode no don't tell me nope not yet um and then we have a race through dark places another excellent episode comes inquisitor that we had from last week then soulmates and then and then it kind of goes down from there um we're in the top 10 okay i'll tell you that we are we're definitely in the top 10 but this episode loses a lot of the wow factor the second time around it does i agree the thing that saves it i think though is the nostalgia factor the this is the first time we saw volan you know i mean like like you and i look back it was just man what it it's the first time it's so important like we understand the the stakes of this episode and we understand all of this stuff and i think it it is something that we as a viewing audience who are not worried about ranking.

[57:20] Allow that to elevate the actual strength of the episode based on what we remember the reveal of the first time around. And it frankly just... It just was. It was just that. Also, the other thing, too, is you and I understand that the Vorlon are not all that in a bag of chips like we used to think they were.

[57:40] And when you think they are, and all of a sudden you realize that they're freaking celestial beings, like that's awesome, right? Huge. So that being said, and they're asking about what about the importance of this episode. And there's a lot of importance. I mean, this was a thing that was attached to the very beginning of the show, like from original concept beat for beat. All of that super important for where we're going and what's happening. But when we're talking about ranking the episode, we got to talk about the quality of the episode in and of itself, right? Not necessarily it's place and importance in the entire deal. Talking about the quality of the episode. Here's the thing. When your first 25 minutes of the episode are kind of it detracts. Well, I think like we're saying this here, the first 25, 28 ish minutes or whatever the people watching on YouTube saw about, 90 seconds of that whole thing because we were just like, yep, this is happening. Sure. Yep, yep. I'm stalling because I'm just going back and forth. As I said, it's not going to crack the top three, but I go back again. Gem Tree of Shadows, Confessions and Lamentations, now for a word. Each of those episodes are where they belong for distinctive reasons. The last, the end of the episode with where we go and what happens though makes up for so much. It's perfect. And it's just...

[59:01] Good it like it's good tv it really is not tv does not have to be 44 minutes of of go go go go go exactly exactly with with where we're going um and i'm leaning of like geometry of shadows geometry shadows great episode all the way around but where does it really shine it shines when elric is on screen absolutely and the concept of techno mages and what they're doing where's confession and limitations really shine it shines in its messaging and it shines in the the emotional impact that you get from this particular episode where does now for a word shine shines in the construction of the story that they that they lay out right and i think this episode is actually better than all of those and so jeff this is definitively going to find its spot in the number four spot on the season underneath coming of shadows coming shadows i think was a better episode than this one yeah um in the shadow of zahadoom better long twilight struggles top five possibly top three episode of the whole damn show so uh yeah i think that's a very respectable place for our season finale number four i think so too i don't disagree it's probably not where i would have put it but it's within two you know and so i think it's good yeah so the first so the first time around this is kind of the big thing and um on our social on instagram and maybe on the youtube shorts we might do a little thing of a comparison of like movements.

[1:00:29] Or whatever but um number one this time long twilight struggle yeah was also number one for the first time sure number two here was in the shadow of zaha doom that was number four for us um the coming of shadows in number three that was number two.

[1:00:44] For us we have the fall of night in number four fall of night was number five the first time around so we actually bumped it up uh a piece and then in number five this time we have the geometry of shadows um that actually ended up geometry shadows was way low number 15 yeah for us last time and then here our number four episode was uh in the shadows of doom we had in the shadows of doom at number four number four jeff we were idiots we didn't know we didn't know we were idiots how How could you not know? It was right there on screen, Jeff. We was ignant. Ignant. That's what we was. Oh, I got him. Sorry, I had a mosquito flying around. Get out of here, mosquito. So, Brent, that's going to do it for not only the fall of night, but that does it for season two of Babylon 5. Holy smokes. Right? We're flying through. We're going into season three here next week. We're going to watch an episode called Matters of Honor. We, the first time around, played a game where we predicted what the next episode would be based on the title alone. Brent, do you remember what you predicted? matters of honor was going to be about um yeah i said that uh jakar and londo would be struggling with their next steps and that londo would finally work up the chutzpah to go tell the shadows i'm done i'm out although he's kind of already said that hasn't he he has yeah he's like yeah this is the last thing i'm gonna do and then i'm done you know just like in barry where he's like starting.

[1:02:11] Now right right how about you jeff what did you predict this episode was gonna be i thought that that piece of the black star, um, was going to kind of do a story that would put the whole Sheridan star killer thing to rest. Like one, like it would be the crux of the episode. It would cause a big deal and they'd resolve all the stuff. And then ultimately kind of put to rest any of the tensions between earth and Minbari so that we could focus more on all the, uh, Centauri stuff that's going on. And we're going to see, well, we already know how far off we were. Um, in what we were trying to figure out when we predicted this thing. But we're going to see what we think of it as we head in to the third season of Babylon 5. Thank you so much for being here with us. You don't want to miss our next episode. Matters of Honor was fantastic. All the season openers are really good. You don't want to miss it. So make sure you are subscribed wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening. Just hit that little subscribe button.

[1:03:07] If you're on YouTube, there's a little bell that will notify you of new episodes and things that come out. Go ahead and hit that as well. We try and do some fun stuff with shorts from time to time and other videos. We also have our Stargate series. Occasionally we have reaction videos and things like that that are up. On the YouTube channel, so make sure you do that. If you're on a podcasting app, hit the stars, right? And do that thing. But the one thing you can do that means the world to us and is the best way to support this show and support us and what we're doing is to share this show with someone else. Word of mouth, let them know what's out there. So until next time, we're going to start. Yes, Brent, what's up? Would you call this our best hope for peace or victory? Why not both? Indeed.