The Geometry of Shadows | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we do. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. 5, the name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time.

[0:33] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we sat down, we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. Now you're joining us as we watch this incredible episode for the second time.

[0:53] Catching all the things that there was no possible way we would have known about the first time around that's right but don't worry folks we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in this series no particular franchise owns messages it's what the genre does best you know it does things like holds up a mirror to society it tells us that there can be hope that things will be better in the future or maybe it just gives us a glimpse into how to be better human beings to one another and i cannot wait to look for those in this episode again that being said this is a warning jeff we need like a like a sound drop here we've been talking about that for a couple episodes now well we need to make it happen uh this is your warning this is your spoiler warning everything from this point forward can could be and probably will be full of spoilers this is jeff and mine's second watch as we're going through we have completed our entire first watch all limits are off we could talk about anything from any point in the franchise from crusade from novels from cons from books from anything we can talk about it all that is fair game so if you have not watched this incredible series yet for the first time please consider this your spoiler warning we encourage you to stop listening to us right now go back catch us with the first watch where everything is spoiler free and then catch back up with us here on the second watch and on the second watch today brent we're watching the geometry of shadows.

[2:21] Do you happen to remember what you thought of this one.

[2:25] I do. I do. I remember thinking meh.

[2:31] Yeah. Yeah. Like I knew at some point, like the shadows were going to be something like just kind of the title, right? Like that we knew the season was the coming of shadows and this is the geometry of shadows. I didn't know what the shadows were even at this point, but I knew they were going to be something.

[2:50] And I really expected this to answer that question it did not answer this question at all i remember feeling that the techno mage thing was super cool but ultimately it turned into a big old bag of nothing until we got to crusade and that was awesome yeah you know like i loved that in crusade but i just not i remember feeling through the course of the season uh or at least through the first part of this episode the first watch of this nothing significant happened now that said jeff this is not my second watch of this episode okay no no and and this was because before we had decided how everything was going to happen like things were still in flux this was still early in our run you know um when we got towards the end of season two i actually re-watched this episode through new lies because londo had made his turn by that point and people were like you gotta foreshadow all the stuff that lona's gonna do i'm like yeah but i don't know foreshadowing yet because i've got there and so So I wound up going back to watch it to really see like, what does this mean for Londo and what his character went? And I went, oh, I get it now. So there's a little bit of, I've already been adjusted and corrected on this episode.

[4:01] That being said, that was still a year and a half ago or so, whatever. No, it's been more than a year, almost two years, I guess, at this point. So I don't fully know everything or remember everything. And so, and I didn't watch it with the end in mind.

[4:17] You know, like I'm watching it now, knowing Londo is the emperor and he's standing there just taking the keeper and, you know, being a man. Right. I didn't know that then. So, yeah. So, yeah. So I'm excited to watch this and see all the stuff we missed for the first time. Jeff, what did you think about this episode the first time around? One of the things I remember in this one was that I got to quote Rush. I tend to remember the episodes I get to do, which is most. Maybe that's why I remember so many of the episodes is I like the ones where I get to quote Rush. But got to quote their song territories from their power windows record because it's all about following you know when a cloth or a rag is unfurled because this of course is the green purple episode so i remember that quite a bit and enjoying that whole uh storyline and i kind of thought the same with the techno mages hey cool idea i like this hope we see more of them right and then uh okay right like that seemed neat i liked some of the veer stuff in it but um honestly most most of my memories are around the drossy storyline on this one drossy one yeah um you do make a few rush references in this one oh a few you do and it's so much so that it really like of all the drinking games that people could have played with us that every time jeff makes.

[5:32] A rush a rush reference i i think there are games i think that's a thing yeah and i know that's on there yeah yeah yeah so um which is fine i'm good with that right now you want to know how i know that how how because i went back and listened to our last episode the first our first watch of the of the whole thing um would you like to know some of the stuff you said or we said i'm a little nervous but yeah it's so good there's there's some fun stuff um we loved veer in this episode okay and we just kind of flippantly said you know what could happen one day no.

[6:06] Veer could be emperor what we sure did look at us we sure did uh we loved michael and sarah for the first um also we had no clue about the historic nature of the name elric correct and we kind of put our foots in our mouths and just sort of let our rear ends hang out there really like it was not it was not okay um but yeah we were just like ah yeah but we had no clue we were innocent we were innocent that innocence has been lost and we now know better like we do and it's honestly it's a really cool name it is what we actually said was it was probably like jms's own personal dnd name uh-huh yeah is where we we posited that that it's still even knowing everything about it it's still a dnd name like oh i would use it to be honest with you yeah um so it yeah it's it's something else i said this was a weird episode man a weird weird weird episode and i really just didn't even understand what happened in it and what i was saying was is this was an episode about a whole bunch of very interesting stuff.

[7:09] With nothing that got finished like i loved the techno mage i loved the drossy fight but all of it just had no ending and i was very put out with the fact that there was no ending to any of those storylines at least it didn't feel like there was an ending to it um i'd ask the question if the trait the techno mages were the soul hunters of season two okay like these guys that come in and they're gonna do a thing and then they're just gonna disappear and you and i both and you you hammered this home of like we need to see the techno mages again we're going to see the techno mages again like we were just we were waiting and if i remember through our first run jeff.

[7:43] As late as season five we were still going those techno mages are going to come back up they're going to come back up and they just never did they didn't until crusade exactly so well.

[7:53] Actually until the movie one of the many wrongs.

[7:56] That crusade righted it was actually i think i think techno mages was one of our big dangling threads i think it was you know was what was one of those so uh yeah yeah um now i had a i had a pretty good prediction too yeah in this one i said uh i i specifically said i was like they're clearly setting up londo to go bad and to have a redemption arc yes oh yeah and begin and and even to be the sacrificial lamb of the show really now listen and we have said and we have heard it said by our council chambers and by our commenters on youtube and in patreon the story of babylon 5 is the story of london malari right and the idea that by the end he really is he's sacrificing himself to the keeper to the to the the the minions of the shadows what do they call it i forget the drug to the drug he's sacrificing himself to that really to keep everything else safe yeah and to do to do what he and he's he is a hero by the end you know for sure so good for you good call right i was like yes um i i will say this i straight up compared the drossy though to the paclids from star trek i think yeah they watch for it in this episode because i think it's they're very paclid-esque although i i do have to know i did that while i was out of buzzers.

[9:25] Oh, that's a thing. I used my buzzers. You tended to use yours and then use mine and then ask if you could use mine after you used mine. Did I really? Yeah. That sounds like something I do.

[9:39] Jeff, you had said that the now understand we first did this episode in 2022, 2023, 22, probably maybe 23. You said this whole drossy thing is basically what the 2024 U.S. Presidential election was going to look like. I'm not sure that you were wrong. There you go. There you go. I mean, look how people. Sorry. Leader. Look up like on both sides. It's like, hey, you got a scarf. How about this one? Right. Sorry. You you complained. Complained. You complained. Never. Never. That this episode did very little except to shine another light on where lights have already been shining. Okay. You talk about like how all throughout all season one, we kept seeing comparison. Claire and the Mimbari Sinclair and the Mimbari. But like, as we did it, it never really like it didn't seem to advance the storyline. But I would argue with you on that point now, having rewatched this again again. Yeah. It's like every time we saw it, it did actually add to it. But you kind of felt like we've seen Londo in the shadows, Londo in the shadows, Londo in the shadows. This was just more, hey, Londo in the shadows. It's going to be a thing, and we're not going to tell you or do anything with it. It's just we're just pointing it out. So you were a little miffed with that.

[10:58] Oh, you had another prediction that you hit, too, which I thought was really good. Yeah. You said that when Londo goes bad, Veer is going to be the next ambassador.

[11:09] Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. so there you go um you also said that garibaldi was going to fall from grace believing the lies oh no i definitely meant different lies at the time you did it's what happened that's you you hit that one um you also had this prediction you you were just throwing stuff out in this episode you thought that the techno mages were the ones who were um uh dinking around with babylon four that they were the ones pushing it through time and doing stuff yeah that makes sense to me even now it's like yeah that would totally make sense yep yep um you also said this i'm going to quote you here because i wrote it down okay said you do not bring out something as cool as the techno mages and have somebody like michael ansara play him only to have it be a one-off thing in a pretty crummy episode because you were just banking that they were coming back that it was going to be a thing yeah i swung hard on that one right uh you did say this you said what if londo becomes emperor and has the shadows backing him he would be unstoppable oh my gosh but you know what he was so uh he was so stoppable he was but also like having the having the the the shadows backing him.

[12:31] Um you you also um oh oh jeff i wanted to slap the everloving snot out of you on this one.

[12:42] But i'm going to save it after this because this one i was i was very much in agreement with you on um you figured out a way to solve the drossy problem okay you figured out the best way to solve it is to uh televise it and put it in the mood of dough and sell ads or put it in the tie and sell that no you're absolutely right yeah like just just tell them like sell tickets to the event make it a whole thing just just monetize the whole thing out of it totally i think that's that's brilliant right right, um but here's the thing i really wanted to slap you on this you you were you're getting you're just kind of getting off on on the leadership thing and how sheridan's treating avanova in this one and kind of letting avanova handle stuff and you're like you said brent there's a reason that sheridan is a captain and sinclair was just a lowly commander stay off my boy there bruh, yeah but you know what at the time i bet you were right you had my back at the time you're like yeah I absolutely did. But now I want to punch you.

[13:42] So anyway, that was my experience. Hopefully similar to the experience of some of you out there who were listening to us the first round wanting to punch Jeff and probably me too. Jeff, that's what we said. Did JMS say anything interesting about this episode? He had nothing to say at all about it, actually. Really? Really? He's like, that one? I don't know about that one. I don't remember that one. No. I actually had a couple things to say on that one. Okay. I was going to be like, yo. He had less than I thought he would have, actually, but still quite a bit. One thing that I found in just digging through stuff, and this was, oh, man, I'm excited to share this one with you. So he had determined pretty early on, about halfway-ish through season one, that he was going to need a Sheridan-esque character. His original plan had put too much on the character of Sinclair, and all of the coincidences that would have had to happen to move things forward just weren't feasible. So he had the idea and what he named that character was John Strider. Strider. Strider directly related to Aragorn and Lord of the Rings. Yeah.

[14:51] That's interesting. He straight up, I want a character like that to come in and do it. And so until they cast someone, he never came up with the actual name. In fact, he shared this, I think, in Points of Departure, I think. Yeah, that Bruce Boxleitner is a big Civil War buff. And so that's where they came up with the name Sheridan to tie him to General Sheridan from the Union side. But here's the thing I was waiting, I've been dying to tell you. Okay. We're going to have this Strider character here. Yeah. Here, oh, Warner Brothers and P10 is my list of preferred actors for the role. Do you want to take a guess who was at the very top of that list? The person he actually, like, argued and fought to get? Do not say Viggo Mortensen. That would have been amazing, but no. Michael York. No.

[15:45] They had King Arthur all but signed. They just needed P10 to sign off on a thing, and he would have been John Sheridan. But P10 said, well, Next Generation already has Patrick Stewart, and we can't have audiences thinking that all captains are British.

[16:01] There's a point to that, except Picard is French. But whatever. There's a good point. I mean, that's a good point on their part. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's two TV shows. Look, here's the thing. if if michael york would have come in and played sheridan as an actor he would have played that in an incredibly different way than he played arthur very or whatever that name is so it's not like while it's it's it's it it does certain things in me that's like oh no that would have been a train wreck or that would have whatever like look i while i don't have the nostalgia for michael york that a lot of other people have like when i see him in an episode it doesn't make me get all warm and fuzzy inside like i just it's just not i don't have that for him i do also recognize he's a fine actor he is a well-respected actor and he's been around for a very long time i always recognize him as professor asher fleming from gilmore girls that's where i'm from yeah he was a little bit of a franklin creep in that one is really what he was so but we'll get to that in a couple weeks right yeah yeah but yeah i thought it was really fascinating he talked about the green and purple of all of this he actually had a pretty fun anecdote they talked about but yeah he chose green because it made him think of like soil and grass and labor and kind of representing the working class of people.

[17:19] Oh, okay. Versus purple, which is a. Royalty. It's a royalty. Royalty. Okay. Ruling class, working class sort of a thing. Oh.

[17:31] But what he thought, so he had. Jeff, I'm sorry. If only being royalty was as easy as drawing a scarf out of a barrel every couple of years. You know? Well, you know what? In a way, in a way it is. It's just a question of like. It's where you're born. Uh-huh. You have zero control over. Yeah. Who's who did i pop out of and who'd you put that so i was gonna make it worse what, popping into them to pop you out oh jeff this is a family-friendly show i'm just saying it's all a roll of the dice ultimately but he had a fun anecdote about how to him the green and purple like that wasn't the important thing the important thing was the scarves like okay this is just like the whole allegory and we talked about this i remember a lot in our first time episode but like the whole thing is like if aliens showed up to earth and we were fighting each other i'd be like hey you're all the same species what are you doing what are you fighting for yeah and we would hold up a flag and he's like that's just ridiculous so he's like i wanted it to be scarves just to show for it to be that ridiculous and he's like but i was at a con and like people started like, breaking off into green and purple sections and then like people started using it and like it became this whole thing and i was like yeah that's not the point and in fact i was thinking about it This whole thing was like wanting to tell the story and the colors weren't the thing. And he's like, all of you coming together to represent a color and defend that color actually means you've completely missed the point of the, of the message I'm trying to convey here.

[18:58] I love that JMS is actively saying there is a message I am trying to convey. Yeah. I'm not just telling a story. There is a message I'm trying to convey. And I, I'm love that he does that. Yeah. I don't think that happens in so much of television that's out there. Well, I think you can't do an episode like this without that level of intention. Very true. Right? Very true. I remember having questions around and still questions around the geometry of shadows. What's all that about? And it actually has very little to do with the shadows. It seemed a good metaphor for the techno mages. Mix of science with something dark and mysterious. How do you work out the geometry of something that in one sense doesn't really exist, but as a projection of something else that does exist? So we thought talking about geometry of shadows was a good way to describe techno magic. Okay. Apparently in this episode, Garibaldi tells some joke. And it's super lame and whatever. That was intentional. He was trying to show that he's trying way too hard and that his spirit's not into it. But I pulled that out because I'm just like, I don't remember the joke at all. We probably. Okay. We'll look for it. But it's a, it's a big thing. But we'll look for it like a giant wrench, man. Probably miss it. And totally never see it.

[20:22] Ivanova gets her field promotion to commander in this episode. Okay. I'm sorry. I, I heard. We talked about that a lot on the show, about what it was for Ivanova to get a promotion. What was she before? Lieutenant commander. Oh, now she's full commander. Okay. Because I was like, she's just always been commander Ivanova to me. Like, what is she? Okay. So that's what it is. Yeah. Fair. But what's interesting, so Sheridan gives her that in this one. The original plan was for President Clark to specifically promote her in points of departure. But they figured that like we're already introducing general Hague and John Sheridan. It's just, it's just too much to have in here. Okay you've got a picture for those on the audio feed brent has a picture of a drazi the drazi uh behind him this is the uh time the episode really where the prosthetics really start to show and the alien characters start to have personality and actual characters that come out.

[21:28] He says it's because they created what they called the babylon five alien rep group okay First season, they had like five people. And this year, now they're up to 12 actors taking the full head and in some cases body casts. So they can use them in mid-level speaking roles as aliens and rotate them in and out. And Green Drazi number one is one such rep that we will see endlessly. And he'll be a Drazi and he'll be a... Is he always going to be the Drazi? No, I think this actor's... Or will he be like the Burkiri and he'll be a Parmok?

[22:02] Pakmurah? Pakmurah. and a markab and a all the things okay because he does i i do remember thinking and looking at the photo right here i was like this is like the same drazi we see throughout the whole show yep yep same dude yeah same dude now this last one i'm going to upset a lot of people because i don't know how to say a word in it but you mentioned um us missing the point on elric in the name of elric so elric is named after the main character of michael moorcock's books many of them comics and short stories and novels and books over 30 different like stories that involve this person named elric the seventh the 428th emperor of meldibode okay something like something all right But apparently, like, I'm not familiar, but people who are familiar love his work, and Elric is a...

[23:01] Much, uh, very common, like piece of drawn art from fantasy novels and things like that. In fact, I know some of our council chambers, um, yeah, uh, people have, have, have created art and own art, um.

[23:15] About, uh, Elric and here it is Suzanne in the council chambers chat meldy, but Mel, my Melanie Bonet, Meldy Bonet. I can't say it. There's no D in there.

[23:25] Melanie Bonet, Melanie Bonet, but i'll need a boat yeah i'll need a boat but say that 10 times fast i'm not going to no so that's elric and and who he was so yeah like a big deal in especially in the in the in that fandom so now we know that is that is not anything like i've never heard that name michael moorcock i've never heard like it's that's not in my sphere so i i love knowing that that's out there and i'm super interested like i kind of want to go check it out and like look into it yeah it's supposed to be he's got this big old sword that sucks the souls out of people uh he's he's uh he's albino so he's all white and his hair is all white which you know maybe michael ansara is that he just shaves his head no he's got he's got eyebrows i think in this so maybe not so black eyebrows maybe he dyes them either way but that's what i got from scouring the everything so what do you say we dive in and watch this episode yeah let's do that if you're joining us for the first time here. Welcome. We love every time, every episode is somebody's first and it's super cool that you're here. We love that you're here with us right now. But the way this works is Brent and I are going to watch the episode. It's going to pop up right here in just about, I don't know, 30, 40 seconds. And we're going to watch this thing. If you're on YouTube, then you're going to see the edited, uh, cut up version of that. The full and unedited version is on our Patreon page, patreon.com slash Babylon five first, the number five, the word first, there's a link down in the show notes.

[24:52] And if you're listening to us on an audio podcasting app, I don't know, Apple, Spotify, any of those out there, podcatcher, you name it. Or you know what? Or good pods where Brent, you and I, we are the, for years now, are the number one Star Trek podcast on the entire app. That's us. Not a Star Trek podcast. Not a Star Trek podcast.

[25:15] Audible. Some people might be listening on Audible. Or wherever, wherever you're doing it. You're going to hear all the reactions and stuff. We used to keep it out, but we thought it'd be better just to put it in. And then we'll meet on the other side to talk about those messages as we share our thoughts. So, Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. Accessing file. Does it hurt when I do that? No. No, it's fine. I don't feel a thing. Yeah, don't do that to your doctor. Ow! Hey, hey, hey, hey. That's what happens when you do that to your doctor. I imagine you'll be able to get back to work in the next day or so, providing you don't exert yourself. Yeah, well, I got to check in with the new captain first, find out if he even wants me around. Besides, I don't know about this guy. I keep thinking about how everybody and his brother wanted Sinclair out of here. Now all of a sudden, this change of command. Sinclair, I could trust. This guy, I don't know. Garibaldi specifically was meant to be the voice of the audience in these early season two episodes. Oh, yeah? Who is this guy? Can we trust him? Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the deal? So we quietly set up monoclonal... Oh, Reefa! This is his first episode, yeah. I forgot about Reefa. Yes, I'm sure it sounded quite absurd. More like insane. But then the monitors went silent. He just called Londo an idiot to his face. Confirmed that the entire non-outpost had been wiped out.

[26:36] Very well. Reefa here was introduced directly so that we didn't think Londo was just evil Centauri. Okay. He was brought in to be like, no, this is evil Centauri. There's a whole range beyond him. We need more people like you, Malati.

[26:52] Pull up it's a good question you can be trusted so real quick before they go into this because this next conversation is pretty important one of the questions you and i had through the first season was what is the hair thing like is it just a part of their like bone makeup or like is is there something like the height of the hair or the shape of the hair does that have any any.

[27:13] Implication as far as social status or different things like that and this was the episode where we're like we're seeing him style it so they do it this way on purpose you know um this was the episode where we realized that so well in uh the script with rifa and his character notes specifically said don't go overboard with the hair because apparently like in signs and portents dude had big hair he did yeah yeah and he was afraid like makeup was gonna like this whole status thing was just gonna get way out of control so they're like that's right because veer's hair is actually bigger now than it than it was when we first saw him so yeah he's looking veer veer is looking a little more aged like when we first met him he kind of looked like a teenager totally remember him playing the video game yeah straight out of a frat house yeah yeah he really was like he's he's still kind of a goob you know i say that with all love and respect for veer and steven first like i love the character but that's why i love him is because he's a goob and i'm a goob so there you know i are one but uh he does look a little more mature man he just look at that evil side eye i love the loyalty that this guy has for londo through the entire show.

[28:23] To londo and the centauri right because like he's going to stand up for londo forever but he'll roll over on londo for the centauri and he'll roll over on londo and the centauri for what's right for what's right yeah you know like he just he will but in doing so he's still loyal to londo and like into his people like you know the emperor is old sick and frightened the recent death of his I hear the voice. When the time comes, my associates and I intend to fill that vacuum. It will not be easy. Interesting that he says my associates. It's a very Morden thing.

[29:00] Is it Morden? Can we count on your support? Or no. It's not. But your health care could be considered treason. Or the first step in restoring our people to their rightful place in the galaxy. Depending on who writes the history books. Terrorist or rebel. I think it will be us. What do you think? i think that we have a great deal of work ahead of us that's londo right there like you know we've seen londo through the the born to the purple and that is i wear a mask and i have no power and you know and i forgot i forgot to know how to dance and my shoes are too tight like we've we've seen the real londo and then we see londo get pulled into the glare of i could be emperor i could like his own glory and that that really is his downfall is he's unable to shake that piece it's very comfortable in his mask right.

[29:57] I like that bit of adr over the fight on project was our last it would have been cool if he said we have another drossy fight right like make it sound bigger that's honestly what i thought he said at first i was like no he didn't say that he just said a drossy fight yeah, which is a weird thing to call out that's a techno age we used to have them back home long ago they use science to achieve the effect of magic i haven't seen one in years they almost never travel they don't like to leave their places of power to see even one of them is a rare thing to see more than one at a time is considered a very bad omen like we saw that in crusade we saw more than one how long has this fighting been going on it's been building for the last couple of weeks.

[30:39] It's a cultural thing once every five years all the drazi here and at home divide up into two camps and this is like two big exposition pieces back to back it's not a fight to the death no whichever side wins the most victories becomes a dominant group for the next five years when it starts all over again actually the timing of this may work out to be a good thing i have decided that it is time for you to start learning the fine art of diplomacy you could handle the low priority conflicts would help me to focus on the other problems also i don't want to deal with responsibility comes with any promotion i know it's annoying and inconvenient but did you say promotion yes would you like some juice it's fresh from the hydroponic garden told him to leave the pulp in yeah are you a pulp guy don't you i i can do pulp i'm a pulp guy i prefer pulping in mine yeah push through the paperwork the day after i got here thank you now your first job will be to find a peaceful solution to the i also love how he does the management thing excuse me hey here's a really tough thing and it's an opportunity for you right right the currents that we think are the one that's going to make us stronger they're the ones that are going to destroy us and the ones that we think are going to destroy us they're the ones that are going to make us stronger now the other current they're so amazing so amazing yes i'm gonna let you write that down and talk about that because that's great why i was thinking about what reefer said before he left they're looking for a sign back home before our first emperor took the throne of the centauri republic He consulted three techno majors who gave him their blessing.

[32:08] They want me to help restore the Republic? I will consult them.

[32:12] It will have considerable influence back home. Go to them.

[32:15] Arrange it i'll be in my quarter go figure it out i really don't think i want to do this londo, don't, he just took two drinks and fell out man but that is such a cool scene knowing what happens after um spoiler alert he kills cartagia and he hits the bottle oh yeah and it's like looking at it this way it's literally like here it's like hey i cannot hold my liquor all the way over this next scene is a big deal scene and i love i love the way that we all know what it is but it's never just outright and said what it is it's very realistic yeah and we'll laugh again though.

[33:11] Maybe it'd just be easier on everybody if i resigned and moved on probably that was quick the universe doesn't give you any points for doing things that are easy, you know i don't know if i've ever talked about this on this show but i distinctly remember i had a moment at one point early on in my career i guess as a parent right and i remember i was just sort of standing in my bathroom and just like man i just maybe it would just be better if i left because i'm gonna screw this kid up like i like i am like i do not have what it takes to make this happen and and i'm like i'm gonna be a bad influence on this kid i'm gonna like this is all not gonna go well and maybe maybe before i screw him up i should just let him go now i had that thought for about.

[33:57] 13 and a half seconds yeah you know and then i was like are you dumb do you know how much more damage you would do by just leaving your kid like it's it you know and and it was it's your presence as a parent like it's your presence that that really you know you just got to show up you win if you just show up right but to what garibaldi was just saying here maybe it's better if i just move on maybe it's better like i i kind of remember being in that spot for a little bit And I've, I've certainly been in that spot with other things that were less important than, you know, parenting my child, you know, but that's a real spot. I think so many people can relate to like, maybe it's just time to move on, you know, but I love Sheridan's response, not only to the thing he was holding, but also to hit to what he was just saying. The universe doesn't give you points for taking what's easy. Yeah.

[34:50] You know, we all got to choose between what's right and what's easy. What i what i love specifically about what sheridan did here is he told garibaldi he was right yeah i should probably just leave yeah he probably should because what that does is it immediately just sucks the wind like garibaldi has no argument right anymore yes you're right you should go also let's do the hard thing i'm down for doing the hard thing now you can't go back and tell me how you're not good at this because i already agreed with you right it's incredible negotiating tactic and just being a human to one another yeah great great being a human to one another piece i need someone i can trust running security i'd like it to be you hold your job open as long as i can don't take too long okay this station has dedicated the goal of finding peaceful solutions to our problems we'd like to find one here you can start by helping me to understand the precise nature of the conflict between the two sides that you've set up i love this. Help me understand. Uh-huh. I understand there are two factions, but what is your point of contention? I'm ready for it, too.

[35:51] Purple. Green. Yes, but who gets to wear the purple sash and who gets to wear the green sash? I mean, is it based on income or caste or rank? We put green and purple in great barrel, equal to numbers of Drazi. Then we reach in, we take. They just have, like, extra sashes hanging out. The two fight until they're all won. Okay, so in other words, would you two please step forward for a minute? That look they just gave each other right right so what you're trying to tell me i mean and this makeup is not as good as other dude off of him and put it onto him oh this one thing alone, dude but that one guy was wearing green and purple yeah yeah oh that moment right there jeff hello i don't know if you remember this i we talked about this at some point that that whole thing where she got crushed by those people was added in because claudia actually injured her leg she did she was he wrote it into the into the story she was in her garden chasing a bird that's how the story goes uh-huh and fell as you do yeah as that happens wrote it into the story i'm here on behalf of ambassador malari and i need to speak to someone who is in charge.

[37:19] Okay what's better this golem monster or the golden dragon so far the golem because you can't see it i think that i think that golden dragon that was just i think so dragon my name is, I love how he kept repeating that. I work for Ambassador Malari. After a while, nothing bothers me. What would have been great is if you just said, my name is Virakoto, I am an ambassador. Kept it up. My employer requests an audience. I'm sorry, neither I nor my brother.

[38:01] We learn by doing and in the process you're going to fall on your face a few times i didn't think you'd take it quite that literally so what's your next move maybe find a non-violent way to structure the conflicts that nobody gets hurt good so uh keep me informed and take care of that foot you ever hear about how ronald reagan used to treat like colin powell and stuff when like he'd cut like colin powell tells a story about how he'd be like hey so uh here's this problem this problem this that and the other and ron reagan just sit there and smile and listen to him and he'd be like and his answer was okay so what are you gonna do about it because i didn't hear anything in there that had anything to do with me yep which which was his it was his way of just being like okay i.

[38:42] Trust you to solve the problem you you got it like that's really what he was saying in that moment like uh yeah i kind of love that that is the correct way to do it and what i love i love leadership moment here with sheridan he said this great thing your only way to learn is by doing and when you do you're going to fall on your face when you're bringing up new leaders like he is here you identify the situations where failure is okay yeah right where it's like this is relatively low stakes it's not easy it's important and it's relatively low stakes go and if you completely hose it we can clean it up on the back side because there it is and you're going to help clean it up right not in a punishment way but yeah because you're going to learn you've got you've got to let you got to give people the space to fail yep you know you just have to make you got to know what the the the consequence like don't don't let them yeah don't yeah you gotta know what the stakes are like don't don't make it don't make it like you know but give them space to fail where the stakes are low like totally i like to when people come to oh i's really messed up i failed at whatever and i'm like well did you really fail because like we're still here the thing is still here like we can still do it did you really fail or did you just gather more information right and now that you have what are you going to do with that information that you've gathered.

[39:56] Do it again and do it better right front of our security tell the drossy we'll meet in chambers and we'll try this again then you are familiar with the techno majors only by name and reputation on my world we have had considerable experience with them they can be a source of great trouble, unless one knows how to deal with them and you do of course i'm so many here at one time and you being new to babylon five and you're well you're inexperienced in such matters no offense Oh, none taken. I'll set up a meeting. Nine o'clock? I'll be there. I'm pleased, Captain, that our first discussions have gone so smoothly. I'm looking forward to many more in the future. Hmm. That's an interesting line. Are you still late, Elvin? Knowing the conversations they're going to have in the future. The commander of Bonova, I thought you should know. I can tell by the sense of joy permeating the rule that I was right to offer my services as a meeting. Is this the one who brought us to your attention? Only after I'd heard about your situation at my security briefing. Captain, you have been used. This creature has been seeking an audience with me ever since I arrived. An employer requests an audience.

[41:05] You were saying, recording a conversation, a very low thing to do. But in the interest of good relations, I am willing to forgive. I love how they show the recording device. I accept. I assume you will not take advantage of this gesture or misrepresent it as some sort of endorsement. Of course not.

[41:31] Risky business. Condemning my recording device while using one of them. Paul asks the question, does that little thing have a rewind and fast forward button? I do not like to be used. I like that. You must learn your manners and respect this moment on. You will. You should leave ambassador before i decide to report your attempt to bug my office and send you back home on the slowest transport i can find that's good that's good send you back on the slowest transport i can find that's that's heavy dude that's hardcore that's like that's like okay so you're gonna break into somebody's house but you're not gonna like steal anything valuable you're just gonna do things that are annoying let's steal all the batteries out of the remotes like like what do you do like that's that kind of a response we are dreamers shapers singers and makers and we know many things such as that's your opening monologue right there to their show 14 words to make someone fall in love with you forever how to rediscover dreams in a world as stolen.

[42:40] That is why we are going away, to preserve that knowledge. From what? I keep thinking of what Elric was just saying, but thinking of Galen. Okay. Restoring dreams that were lost, or taken away, you know, earthly things or whatever. That's Galen's whole thing, right? Like, his girlfriend was killed, and he's trying to do this thing. But, like, everything that Elric is saying right here in describing the Technomages, we saw reflected in Galen. Right. I think that's really cool. Yeah. Like, again, what a fully fleshed out and thought cool thing that he just plopped here. And in Babylon 5, we never came back to again. But, but, okay, let me defend it. They're going away. Right. We're meeting them as they're on their way out. And he's dropping a little, he's dropping just a little nugget here on Londo.

[43:33] It's, there's a little bit, a little bit of world building and stuff. Although i will still say you know and this was one of those things we went we went back in time we told jms he should do it this way and he just he insisted on his way yeah he can be a little stubborn sometimes as he does you know that you know that that what should have happened is is like like jinxo and the techno mage and like these kind of one-off dudes like infection dude like super powered infection dude not like regular infection dude i'm talking about like super powered infection dude like these guys all come in at the end in like an avengers endgame style like i'll be you know just to help with the big fight at the end turns out the fight was more just a leave and they said okay yeah all right so whatever we're catching them on their journey but i was gonna say in context of what's happening in the greater story it makes absolute sense why we never see them again until galen turns up and we shouldn't have seen him but turns out he was the outcast and although what if we got galen in babylon five that wouldn't have him there and we saw that it wouldn't really work in um whatever movie that was with him and sheridan uh called arms called arms yeah yeah all right but no okay pause black and terrible okay sorry to recover dreams that the world has stolen away we can do that but we're going away to preserve that knowledge the question is not what are you running from the question is to what end.

[44:59] Yeah. Like, what are you holding and what is it that you're going to do with that? But who are you doing it for at this point? You want to restore dreams that the world stole in the way, but you're going to leave from all the people who would be having those dreams, you know, like, like I get it. You want to preserve the knowledge and you don't want to be used yourselves and that sort of stuff. But again, to what is so great.

[45:21] You, you go save a bajillion dollars in the, in the, uh, the apocalypse money doesn't mean anything in the apocalypse. Who cares like okay you're gonna go preserve all this knowledge great but you're gonna leave with nobody left there to preserve it for who cares like i think i think that's actually the thing is they're leaving because they know that the galaxy is hosed they're like these people aren't ready for what's coming and they're not going to make it so let's get out of here so that when the vorlons and the shadows leave again or whatever we can come back in and help rebuild everything with the people that are left over hedging their they're hedging their bets i also think about them in terms of the vendrizi right we both didn't hold on hold on hold on hold on wasn't that the name of the the steward the the guy who was who was like emperor between the emperor and londo no i forget his name that wasn't vendrizi no vendrizi were the exogenesis aliens okay so with with them their whole thing is like they were benevolent and cool to people uh-huh it's almost it's almost as if someone was dying and they only way to save them was to implant them with like a symbiote that would bolster up their immune system.

[46:32] Long enough for them to live. But in this case, they're actually trading most of their life, but they're conscious for stuff. Would the symbiote willingly leave once that happened or like, would they just sort of stay and take over? I think in this case they could willingly leave, but some of them probably stayed and took over. All right. Then Dreezy. Wasn't that the name of all of Sean's character in princess bride? It might be. I don't know. Okay delen points out that it's verini verini verini is the name one thing that's the emperor, well not not emperor he's the the region what was the name the region that's it i was thinking steward like same idea okay yeah region but yeah so the vendrisi they basically accumulate knowledge they've got tens and tens of thousands of art and culture and knowledge and science and all of these things and they're just going around soaking up and then they're disappearing and we were just all like where the heck did they go what the heck that's dumb well they probably went to the same place that the techno mages went they all figured we were done this shadow war will be the last and so we got to come back and help rebuild we would not have our knowledge lost or used to ill purpose, from this place we will launch ourselves into the stars with luck you will never see our kind again so they really talk about going beyond or at least implying it because what we get in crusade is no they just went into hiding they didn't leave they just went into hiding i can only ask you trust us.

[47:59] What did he just do in sheridan's hand he just pulled a quarter out of his ear, i mean really that's what he did oh that's orange blossom yeah, He likes his fruit. So Sheridan's got a ton of righteous indignation. Yeah. You have to answer my questions. You, I need to know these. Why? Why is Elric under any obligation to answer any questions? There are people. Because he's the commander. With legal traveling documentation. Like they're just rolling. Or in the earth for, in the earth alliance, do you not have, you know, freedom of movement? Even if you have all your documents you know you can still i don't know i feel like elric is being.

[48:45] Harassed harassed harassed harassed through this whole thing he feels the same way i also feel like he's being obstinate but honestly it's his right to be obstinate too do not interfere i have to i can't have this station disrupted any further this has to stop and it has to stop now i have solution to our problem go on you tell purple drossy to gather in brown 29 not used by others will not be disturbed talk peace talk find solution if you tell they will trust all right then what why do they think that when all purple drossy in one so here's i don't think his plan is going to work anyway anyway because avanova like they don't have well his whole thing's like bring them here and talk peace and all of the stuff and they're going to come why do you think the purple are gonna come talk peace with avanova there's no evidence of that yeah that's a good point in place open hatch to space flush oxygen vacuum purple drowsy cannot breathe all purple drowsy all purple drowsy die station is quiet again no more fighting problem solved you win, everybody everybody win i don't believe this hacklets you're talking about the cold-blooded slaughter of almost 2 000 drowsy don't you understand these are your own people no purple Purple. Ah, it's your purple. It would help. Purple. No. Purple. Great shame.

[50:08] Use your name. You will stay here until we are done. The bottom of my security! Now we finish this our way. Did he just gank that thing off her hand? He sure did. I thought, weren't those things like molecularly bonded? I don't feel like they shouldn't be that easy to take off. Especially somebody else. It should be you taking it. Yeah, although it would rip your skin if they didn't. What's going on? What's a commotion? Got an uplink from Commander Ivanova. We gotta clear out Brown 29 for some big drossy meeting. Well, how do you do, sir? I'm looking for the lady of the house, assuming you're not the lady of the house. Oh, yeah, those are cool. Assuming you're not a lady. This is the joke. Yes, sir. The Acme Handy Dandy Micro Helper right here in this box. Trust me, okay? Trust me, bro. In fact, if there's anybody in here who needs a little help, just say the word and I'm here. Go, Molly! There it is. I wonder what taking a punch through prosthetics feels like. That can't be good. I don't want to find out. I'm just curious. It's gonna be weird. Cycle is drossy year. One drossy year equal 1.2 human years. Can you keep purple drossy prisoner that long, Earther? This...

[51:18] Is our way you could do nothing but don't you understand this is insane it doesn't make any sense to go around killing each other over a piece of cloth you so great brent do you remember one of the very first conversations you and i ever had around cultures and respecting cultures it was on uh be me up it's that long ago um i i can guess what the content of it was but i don't remember the conversation specifically now so i asked the question is every culture worth honoring okay because we talk about that right we have to honor and respect people's culture and i so here we are this is our way this is our culture we're not hurting anyone else except they are are they well they're damaging property on the station they're creating ruckus on the station they are creating whatever venting brown them out of brown 29 hurts no one but the purple drossy but you're using our facilities to do it yeah go use your own facilities okay you do it on your world and your facilities and your whatever and that's between you two and this is your way and they got you i here here's the thing yeah this is my culture you have to give me a space for the the cultural milestones and touchstones that we have no i don't i don't have to there's there's no rule there's no rule that in respecting your culture means that i have to accommodate and facilitate you doing your thing with your culture.

[52:43] There is no rule that says that. I can respect your culture. I can respect that your culture is the way it is while at the same time disagreeing with your culture and disagreeing with how you go about stuff. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

[52:55] Also, I do not have to provide avenues and facilities for you to do it. And I do not have to allow you to do the things of your culture in my space. But if you're in your space and your deal and you're over there and you're doing your thing, you know, as distasteful as I may find the way that you do stuff, I don't necessarily have to go tell you how to do that over there.

[53:15] Yeah. So, but still here we are saying, she's not saying, she's not making your argument. She's making the argument that you can't kill these people. You can't hurt these people. Yeah. And I think that, and, and, and Ron and our council chambers chat really had it. And there's other people agreeing, Brett, you're right. And, you know, people are right to agree, but this is the paradox of intolerance, right? We have to talk, we have to tolerate, have tolerance for people and stuff. But if we have tolerance for things, then stuff like this happens. But if we're not tolerant of this, then we're intolerant. And isn't that the thing we were trying to fight in the first place?

[53:49] Something to think about. It is definitely a paradox. That said, I also still believe that there are some things that are universally right and wrong. Killing people or not killing people I think is one of them in general. No, no, no, don't go to that part. No, no, I'm going to that. Go ahead. So if that's a universal right or wrong, if it's universally wrong to kill people. Oh man i'm not gonna ask you this is all that's a too much of a diet i'm careful what you're waiting into yeah too much of an off off track for that one but all of that i just wanted to point out that like here ivanova is not saying can't do this here we'll find a better place to go she's like this has to stop here and on your home world you have to stop this and she again with our ethics she's not wrong but they clearly don't share her ethics but what avanova is doing is she is practicing uh the application of the prime directive in the style of captain james t kirk so yeah absolutely we're not going to interfere but this stops now right right we're not going to interfere but here's how i'm interfering so do same yes for flag for honor that's different is it yes especially this at least means something It's not as arbitrary as yanking a color out of a box. I mean, you're fighting and dying over a stupid piece of cloth. But there's nothing special about it. It's not patriotic.

[55:15] Did JMS, I'm sorry. There's a star in the middle of it. So you said at the beginning of this whole thing that JMS was using this as a metaphor for flags. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. They just called that out. Yeah. And did he just provide the answer to his own argument? Did he just debunk his own argument? yeah but our flags mean something oh i don't i don't think so behind them you just have a stupid piece of cloth no i i think i think because this continues this doesn't end with us feeling good about our flags and that it's a big thing like this turns into it's just a cloth or a rag that's all we're dealing with what what's wrong who takes green is green follows green leader.

[55:56] Who takes cloth for green leader is green leader greens follow green leader wait a minute you're saying this because i'm holding this right now take it back i'm green leader but i'm human you know what's interesting here oh i love this line but yeah what's what's really interesting here is there there is something within their culture okay and oh there's something within the drowsy culture that when you're green and you're you're you follow the green leader right there is something that prevents the rest of the green from taking the cloth of the green leader because they follow the green leader so when avanova just reaches up and yanks this cloth like yanks this cloth off this draws his neck he's like but we follow the leader i mean if that's all it takes then what's to prevent any draws from yanking the cloth off anybody else's neck yeah i could do a better job than you yeah yeah but that's not their culture their culture no no we fought that's our leader we follow that person that person drew the thing we don't you know why would we ever take that that's theirs that's their you know she just yoinks it and immediately you're now the leader just like that you know and the the dude who just lost his cloth doesn't even question it what i do love and if you could take this watermark down and show i want you to look at the drazi just to the left of this man totally he is eyeballing this dude like.

[57:21] Also you're nothing right now i'm trying to decide if i should kill you and attack you or what yeah what do i do you're nothing and what is this guy he has no cloth what is he now yeah if you're neither what are you third party voter throwing it away than contact with other races Did not mention aliens. Rules change. Green Leader says you're all coming with us down to the quartermaster's office. I'm sure there'll be some dye hanging around. Those of you who are not spending the next two months in the brig for assaulting an Earth Alliance officer are going to look absolutely gorgeous in purple. Stunning should have said stunning perhaps my enthusiasm for for a personal meeting was excessive i i apologize it's like the magic words right you know now to see that you are here's the thing we know there's this whole conversation coming up with elric and londo here in just a moment and that's a major foreshadowing event that is a big foreshadowing moment uh-huh it really is sympathetic and understanding group and ben points oh ben good good call good call ben points out in the long night of londo malari he says he's never apologized for anything false yeah right here and nia brings it up also yeah oh good call ben yeah that's really.

[58:40] Because he didn't mean it here uh no no no no no no he did it it counts i wanted to thank you for your amusing little gift corin is babylon five two hours to repair the damage to my corpse and i don't think the smell will go away for days i like the smile on his face does this torment end when you leave or am i going to have to spend the rest of my life paying for one little mistake afraid you're gonna have to spend the rest of your life paying for your mistakes not this one of course it's trivial i have withdrawn the spell but there will be others what are you talking about you are touched by darkness ambassador oh i believe it was an endorsement you wanted a word or two a picture to send to the folks back home confirming that you have a destiny before you yes it was just a thought nothing more we'll take this for what little it will profit you as i look at you ambassador i see a great hand reaching out of the stars The hand is your hand and I hear sounds the sounds of billions of people calling your name my followers your victim.

[59:48] Oh and he just peaces out oh my god that's something else yeah now in i don't know 22 episodes or so we're gonna catch uh avanova is gonna be out seeking the first ones the current markers are out doing the thing right and we're going to see a hand coming out of a cloud doing a thing i've always thought that hand was what he was referring to here but what he said was that hand is your hand and so now in my head i'm kind of going is it possible that those two things still match up and that that hand as a first one was actually londo's hand and there's some, bigger metaphysical thing that we don't know that has something or are those just two completely separate hands i feel like the idea of a hand comes up a couple of times we get it in the vision And I think it's an acts of sacrifice with Sheridan.

[1:00:41] It comes up and yeah. So I think it's the, yeah, it's all, yeah, it's all a metaphor and none of it actually connects to anything that ever actually happens. Right. And Ben points out of Bonava doesn't see the hand. It's Londo in a dream as a metaphor. Okay, fine. I missed the details on it. So maybe it is still the hand. Yeah. The techno majors is requesting permission to leave. What do I tell them? Do you have all the techno majors? Check that first. Part of me says we'll not see their like again. Dang right. Part of me that still believes in magic says don't be so sure.

[1:01:18] Music.

[1:01:23] Part of me that believes in magic says there might be a spinoff at some point where we can do some stuff with these guys. All right, Brent, well, we just watched Geometry of Shadows for the second time. Talked a lot about it during the episode itself. So let's kind of jump in to the meat of, I think, especially this episode. You were jotting them down as we were going. What kind of messages did you pull out of this one? You know, there's actually some really good stuff in this episode. Yeah. you know um and and i i want to officially retract everything i said negative about this episode in my first watch okay drowsy storyline came to a conclusion the techno mage storyline came to a conclusion as best as it needed to they said their deal it's probably and i will say this this is a hundred percent mitigated by the fact of i know where this goes right i still think as a first time watcher you're coming through this there's a little bit of a jarringness to this episode that's just like, what is this that I just, where are they going with this? But second time through solid episode, really good episode. I, I thoroughly enjoyed this.

[1:02:30] Um, you know, the biggest thing here to me is, uh, Garibaldi. Garibaldi is worried that he is going to be asked a question that he doesn't have an answer to. Right. Um, and there's a few things you can go with that. You know, one of the things that occurred to me is things are almost always worse in your head than they are in real life right you know you're having that conversation in your head with somebody else, like you're fully playing out the conversation right and that is almost always never the way that the conversation goes right and a lot of times what i find i do and i know a lot of other people do is they say somebody else's yes or no for them your body's like is sheridan even gonna want me nah he's not even gonna want me so i might as well not even you know and he's doubting he's doubting so much he's doubting his worth he's doubting his value he's doubting his place he's doubting all of this stuff and and you know i said in the i said in the show this almost could be re renamed how garibaldi gets his groove back totally yeah you know because he finds his place again. Now, if we could all go into Brent's counseling room, I would tell you your value is more than the things you do at your job. Your value is not wrapped up in that at all as a person.

[1:03:49] But Garibaldi clearly places his value as a person in his job. And I would encourage people to not do that. And it's really hard, especially for guys. I know it is for girls sometimes too, but just general, very generally speaking, it's very hard for guys to do this. I get that. Um however we see at the end the answer to this whole thing is what did garibaldi find out by the end he knew what he had to offer yeah yeah he could do that nobody else could do the value he could add to the organization.

[1:04:23] In a way that somebody else couldn't do. Right. And I think that is so, if you can find your value that the thing that you bring to the table, that nobody else brings, you're going to find where you're meant to be, you know? Um, and I think, I think that's really important, uh, important to know.

[1:04:43] Um, so that, that's the big one, Texas and Leshock and our council chambers, uh.

[1:04:48] Had this insight and i thought it was it was really good um they pointed out avanova tries to solve the drossy conflict with logic but the problem is the conflict is illogical yeah yeah and it's you know i you take that for what you want but it's hard to solve the illogical with logic sometimes you have to meet meet it with ill you know this this feels like something we would see somewhere in star trek honestly you've got to meet the illogical with more illogical illogical stuff you know um but i i loved that little bit but uh the the last one i really had uh was talking about londo you know londo we've you actually said this jeff and i loved what you said here we were talking about how we've seen the real londo you know was born to the purple and he's wearing his mask and he's and he's his shoes are too tight and he forgot how to dance and and you know i'd said but look how easily he is distracted by the real londo or the real londo gets distracted by the light and the glimmer of the power like he's he's just in entranced by that right like it's this draws him and you had a great word jeff you said don't get too comfortable in your mask londo is comfortable in his mask he's comfortable wearing his mask don't get comfortable in your mask be uncomfortable do what it takes to stay when you know that that's a mask when you.

[1:06:15] That you're placing your value in something that is not valuable. Don't be comfortable in that mask. Yeah. You know what I mean? Get rid of that. Do the, do the work that it takes to stay uncomfortable. And the thing is, is it can be really, really hard, you know?

[1:06:33] And this one, just on a personal level, recent events that have to do with someone who is very close to me. No one should ever have to spend their lifetime paying for one little mistake. Right. Yeah. Paying for one little mistake that frankly is even above your head you know what i mean like it just don't impugn people like nobody should ever have to do that there should always be grace there should always be a path for redemption always right um and i know what i said and i stand by it there should always be a path for redemption yep i agree how about you jeff you got anything like you had mentioned that it's not easy to live you know stay uncomfortable and stay out of your mask well i love this one we talked about it during the episode so i won't go into it a lot but the universe doesn't give you any points for doing things that are easy, say it i mean it was all in the episode i love we have this little string of episodes that are coming up where we talk about the universe and how it interacts with us and one of the lines that i I didn't capture all of it because Veer was just going off. Like he'd been, this is a core belief system for him. He's been holding onto the universe is made of currents and eddies. He goes, this is the currents that we have to fight look like the currents that we have to embrace. The ones that we think will destroy us are actually the ones that'll make us stronger. And he went on with, with a couple more and with more words and he kind of really got rolling. But.

[1:08:01] Really is about i mean like we can use that mask example that mask looks like something i should embrace like i get power when i do that in a better page yeah it's it's a thing i should actually be fighting and it looks like it's going to make me stronger but no i mean londo's mask truly destroys him what masks are we wearing right yeah but the one when again we also talked about it is we learned the true magic words it's not the 14 words that make you fall in love it's not the seven words that make someone go without pain. It's two words. I apologize.

[1:08:35] I saw the magic in this time and Londo didn't even mean it when he said them and they still had magic. Like, imagine, imagine if he had meant it. Yeah. And I, so people were talking about that in our council chambers, you know, an apology set under duress is not really an apology. And we, yes. And I think there's more to have that conversation as well. That is beyond the scope of this particular deal, but i love what you just said there jeff even when you don't mean it there's still magic in the words there's some magic there there's just magic there there really is sometimes that magic can be evil magic and blow up in your face and be horrible right yeah like we've talked about before hey i'm really sorry that you feel that way oh no yeah i apologize that you caught me doing that right that's no good but that's that's not that's not it well jeff um those are some of the new messages we caught coming out of the show good i think this is a good episode now that's me that's my opinion you know i'm looking we do this thing as we go through where we create the 100% the completely accurate and definitive ranking of season two of babylon five especially here on the second watch through uh jeff where did we wind up with geometry of shadows in the last one.

[1:09:50] And do I take a guess? It was probably low. It's probably real low. Like I'm going to say 18 or lower. Oh, wow. No, 15, a little bit, 15. Okay. All right. Where just out of curiosity, where did points of departure and revelations fit in comparison to that? Were they above or below? Revelations was 20. So it was below and then points of departure was 12, just above it. So points of departure actually was, I mean, in the, the upper crust there, like.

[1:10:19] And then geometry of shadow jump shot still kind of near the top of the bottom half right yeah uh points of revelations not so much well jeff it falls to you this week my friend who placed this in our 100 completely accurate definitive ranking of brown two of babylon five, is this gonna split between points of departure and revelations is this gonna take the new number one or is this one going down in your book i know where it would go for me but where does it go for you my friend it's so interesting because i see these episodes are so different now you know there was a time where geometry of shadows there was a time it actually happened but would easily go above revelations like that would have been a slam dunk that is not a slam dunk this time and so i find myself with all three of these episodes looking at them and thinking to myself which one do I want to watch right now? Like if I walked out of here and turned on, which one do I want to watch again? It's not revelations. Here's the thing. We talked about it. It was a great episode, but that sister stuff, I don't know that I'm ever going to watch that one again. Like, or I'm definitely going to fast forward through a lot of it points of departure. Yeah. I'll watch that one again, but it's, it's, I don't know, but geometry of shadows. I'm a hundred percent going to watch again because this is our new number one. This is our new number. That is correct. Yeah. My friend, Jeff, you have got the right answer here.

[1:11:42] Yeah, no, it's good. Here's the thing. I don't know that Geometry of Shadows is going to stay this high in the list. I agree. Certainly it's not going to be number one, but I don't know that it's going to be like in the top 10. It might be. And I say that because the second half of season two is so strong. So strong. It's so strong. so if i if i gave it a final prediction i think it's going to find itself in that maybe if i i'm going to guess nine to 13 14 range so it's going to drop pretty significantly it's not going to be that much above where it was last time but i think that's just a reflection of how strong the second half of the season is going to be i agree i agree you know that said if this stayed relatively high like top five top six top seven i would not hate that like i quite like this episode a lot a lot coming out of this it's fun and it gave you a lot to think about it was great yeah yeah well jeff that's going to do it for us here for geometry of shadows we got a not new episode coming up next week a distant star jeff.

[1:12:47] I want you to think about not what you thought about this episode, but go back to when we were just listening to the title and making our prediction. Do you remember what that prediction happened to be? I do. I thought we were going to get what we thought we were going to get in this one and get some of the Shadows backstory. I was hoping maybe a little bit of the Jaquan stuff. I remember getting really interested in Jaquan and wanting to learn more there, but figured this was pretty much going to be about the Shadows. Do you remember what you predicted? I did. I did. I predicted this to be the literary device of season two of The Prophet, the episode of The Prophet.

[1:13:22] You know, in literature, there's there's in classic literature, there always seems to be a prophet who comes in relatively towards the beginning. And they tell the hero, like, here's what you're going to need and here's what you're going to do in order to defeat the bad guy by the end. And I kind of felt like this was going to be that episode. You made fun of me because apparently I've kept talking about a prophet for quite a while.

[1:13:43] So whatever. but uh yeah that was that was my prediction was this was going to be that episode where, somebody's going to come on the station and tell us what we have to do to win cool sounds good i'm excited to find out uh how it ranks rates for us next week when we watch it right here thanks for joining us for this dissection uh of the proofs and the theorems behind the geometry of shadows it's been great having you here if you haven't already please comment down below if there's a mechanism for commenting, rate, uh, rate us, review us, give us the stars, do all those things. That's all super cool. Uh, if you're called to serve, if the calling of your heart is to serve, then do us a huge favor and share this show. Like that means a lot. It tells us that you're, you know, part of the community and that you want more really cool people to be a part of our absolutely incredible community.

[1:14:33] So with that, I'm going to wrap up, head out. Hey, Jeff. Yes. What's up? Hey, so, you know, we do this thing here at the end. And last time I was, when I was re-listening to the episode, actually, I kind of liked the end. I thought it was really funny. We did this whole like nonstop purple and green thing. Yeah. Purple, green, purple, green. Right. And then we even like when we hit the outro music, like we played the outro music and then afterwards we came back in and Jeff, it was like a solid minute, if not more of us just continuing purple, green, purple, green, purple, green. Program it it was one of those like like it was funny and then it stopped being funny and then it got funny again and it just kept getting funnier i'm not sure we should do that this time though like it just it's too easy i don't know it was funny then we just can't do it again.

[1:15:17] Yes we can no no we can't yes we can no we can't yes we can no we can't yes we can no we can't yes we can no we can't yes we can no we can't yes yes we can no we can.

[1:15:42] Music. can no we we can't yes we can no we can't yes we can no we can't yes we can no we can't yes we can do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth no we can't yes we can n-o we can't si se puede i don't know what you said but no we can't yes we can no we cannot yes we can no can't yes we can cannot can cannot cannot cannot cannot cannot cannot we cannot can can can can can can can can infinity can can can can can can double infinity no kickbacks can can can can can Can, can, can, can, can, double infinity plus one.

[1:15:44] I mean we're not some some deep space franchise this station is about something,