The Summoning

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am the one who was,

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I am the one who will be.

Jeff: and we are watching Babylon five for the first time for you, the one who is.

Brent: Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters. Searching for Star Trek like messages. That are being done in a uniquely Babylon five way.

Jeff: While this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we are sure to pull in those references because like honestly, how, how could we not given who we are and what we do, but to help us with that, we play the rule of three. That means we each get up to, and no more than three references to Star Trek per episode.

That's it. Three. No substitutions. Exchanges are really fun. Hey

Brent: Hey Jeff,

Jeff: we have a five star review. Oh yes. This is from Apple Podcast and Becker's 29

Brent: what's up Beckers?

Jeff: Loving this. I've had a lot of fun with this, but sometimes it's odd to hear this show compared to DS nine. Yes, yes. I know that's been a thing since 1994, but the similarities are few and far between.

What confuses me more is why more folks aren't comparing B five to Lord of the Rings.

Brent: Yes. This is what we've been saying for like a month now. Jeff.

Jeff: Yep, exactly.

Brent: Oh

Jeff: Well, well, Brent,

Brent: Jeff.

Jeff: we have another five star. Yes. This one's also on Apple Podcast from I Court

Brent: I court What's going on? I court.

Jeff: says bring in B five back. You asked for more reviews from female listeners. So here you. When I first started this podcast, I was unsure how long I would last as it seemed, the hosts were so focused on how Babylon five was Star Trek instead of appreciating the series for what it was at the time. Right?

Groundbreaking storytelling with compelling characters and lines that I still quote to this day. As an OG T N G fan. I was hesitant back in the nineties to watch this, but so glad I did. As 30 years later, this is one of my favorite stories of all time. I was surprised that they understood B five as soon as they did, and I'm enjoying the insight into the show from fresh eyes.

I laugh when you get it wrong and yell when you get it right. I'm so excited for what is ahead of you and can't wait for your reactions to some of the best story twists and turns of all time. I highly recommend a rewatch when you finish and also reading JM S'S biography. Looking forward to your future episodes, and I highly recommend this podcast to all be five fans, new and old.

Brent: Court. Thank you so much for that review and getting us and understanding what's going on. Thank you so much and welcome.

Jeff: Yeah. Love to have you here. I, I felt so cool. And it's like, Hey, you got the, you, you figured this out so quickly. Thank you for noticing. We did. Yeah.

Brent: you for getting us. Like that's Yes. Yes. Actually, both of these reviews today, Jeff, like you guys get us, you really understand what we're going for and what we're all about here, uh, at, at Babylon, five for the very first.

Jeff: It's awesome. Thank.

Brent: Well, Jeff, you know, uh, along with that rule of three you just mentioned a few moments ago, uh, there is another game we like to play. Now, this game happens at the end of the episode where we try to guess what next week's episode is gonna be about based on title alone. We haven't watched any trailers. We haven't, uh, looked at thumbnails to get a clue or read any show descriptions.

It's literally just the title of the episode, which sometimes gives the entire thing away and other times does not at all. Well, this is the spot of the show where we revisit last week, what we said this week was gonna be about. And so, Jeff, I'll put it to you. What did you say the summoning was going to be about and how close were you?

Jeff: I thought we were gonna dive into like how Garabaldi was tortured and stuff like that. And that is, uh, that's not what happened. I thought there'd be some drama around pulling the fleet together to head off to Zaha Doman. That, that part, uh, that there was definitely some drama. What did you think?

Brent: Well it based on the idea of the summoning, I thought that, uh, uh, this was gonna be Sheridan summoning the powers of the first ones to himself. You know, like cuz Sheridan's gotta be our big hero, right? And, and this was, he was gonna get powered up or maybe he was gonna be summoned to the ancient council of the first ones or some, something of that nature where he's, he's receiving training or power or something from all of the first ones to become the guy who's got to, uh, beat the shadows and all that sort of stuff.

And yeah, I wasn't right at all. Like I was off by a mile or two,

Jeff: It's still a, it has a great idea for it though.

Brent: been a kickass episode, to be honest with you.

Jeff: it'd be cool if there was like some council of ancient first

Brent: Right,

Jeff: whatever and

Brent: You know what I had in my mind, I think I told you this last week, um, you've seen troll hunter. On Netflix, the animated show, uh, there is a, there's a point where Jim, the troll hunter gets pulled into like some weird ethereal realm that only he's allowed to go into where he meets the other troll hunters of the past.

And they kind of like put him through a training thing and like imbue him with power or whatever and, and send him on his way. Like, uh, that's, that's ki that's in my head, kind of what I was thinking. Or maybe like in Mullan when the, the ancestors like , you know, something of that nature. Well, Jeff, uh, for those out there who haven't seen this episode in a while, or maybe they haven't watched the episode, they're just listening to us because they like us.

Why don't you tell the folks what this episode was actually,

Jeff: Well, Kar is living the exact life that Londo said that he would. They've got him in adjuster's hat. They're humiliating and torturing him. Or I mean, maybe having pain technicians apply their techniques to him or whatever, whatever it is they're calling it these days. But no matter what, no matter how much pain, no matter how much starvation they put on him, Kar will not budge.

He will not scream, he will not beg, and this gets car. Taji is so mad. He personally lays into Kar, but he remains silent.

Londo meets with him. He tells him that he must scream or Carta will kill him. Kar says that betrays his very bean is a narn to scream, which Londo says, well, hey, if you're dead, will you be any more Naar? Londo sits back, calm, quiet. He looks Ja car straight in the eyes, and he says, night of the fight, you might feel a slight sting.

That's pride. Pride. Pride only hurts, never helps you fight through that Because a year from now when you kicking it on the Narn home world, you're gonna say to yourself, Lando Maari was right. Well, 39 excruciating lashes with an electro whip later. And Ja does it. He screams also screaming are some of the league worlds, they've had enough of Dalen aggravating the shadows.

If they just say, cool, right? They don't do anything. Maybe they'll buy another thousand years of safety from the shadows. They organize a public protest and Dalen asks Lanier to keep an eye on things so she can be there to say her.

Before this though, she tries to say her piece to the new Kosh, but LE's still running interference for them. They've ordered her Lea to get rid of all of her furniture except for her mattress because, well all that furniture's a distraction. But she's the only person on the station that new Kosh will talk to.

They don't have any time for Dalen or anyone else, and their time with Lida is getting worse and worse. She complains that new Kosh hurts her and that she feels that like, like at least old Kosh kind of cared about her. She gets brave, tries to read their thoughts, but gets mind blasted up against a wall for trying.

Our buddy Zach, he's up against a wall too. He got the info on that Montag guy including this flight path. Nobody knows where Kar is or where he is been, and Zach's worried they're gonna lose this dude if they wait too long to find him. And then Garabaldi would be lost forever. He leads a small wing out to intercept.

They try to take out the ship's engines, but somehow that blows the whole ship up after it ejects a life pod. We see Garib Baldy wrapped up in Saran Wrap in the life pod in some green light activating a program. What program you ask? Well, I'm sure we'll get to that later. Zack gets him to med lab and Dr.

Franklin gets to work bringing him back to health. As much as he tries though, he can't remember a single thing. Ivanova remembers something though, and that's that. She has some inside info on where the first ones might be. She gets a white star to try recruiting some of them for the big fight. Dylan tells her to hurry though because her arbitrarily chosen deadline for attack is coming, coming up soon, and we gotta do it because I made up this deadline and so I gotta get everybody panicking about it.

Come on, come on. Hurry up. Quit wasting time of Ava. Well, she and Marcus fail in their quest to find new ones, but they do find something a little more valuable than that. The beginning of a beautiful friendship. Marcus shares that he still has his V card. Wait, no, C come on, come on. Get your mind outta the gutter.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about virtue. And yet the oth the other thing too. And, and they actually do find some first ones on their little journey, but they aren't new first ones. Nope. They're orlon and there are thousands of them. The protest finally breaks out on the Zocalo. Arazi and some other dude are making the case for a peaceful solution warning that no one survives Zaha doom.

Dalen says they're acting from fear.

Dalen says they're acting from fear, but they retort that she is acting from grief and sadness. Oof. Truth stings, doesn. They're arguing intentions are growing. An unidentified ship uses the station's docking codes to dock. We see two silhouetted figures inside. They step outta their ship and moments later, captain John Sheridan walks right up to the Drossy, who sheepishly apologizes and steps down.

He then gives a speech that will be vying for the top spot in all of Babbel five. As he says, tell your governments that the only man that survive Aha doom sends this message. We can end this not just for now, not just for the next thousand years, but forever. I stand before you as proof that it can be done.

We can fight and we can win, but only if we do it.

Elated and seen victory in their grasp. They meet in Sheridan's office where he tells the stories of the shadows in the vlan. Garrett Baldy, who's been looking pretty apprehensive about everything, asks who this new dude is, and Sheridan and Drew and Sheridan introduces Lorianne. Garabaldi isn't too keen on this, but is cut off as Ivanova comes and tells them about the VLAN fleet.

Lida explains the shadows just destroyed a planet, an entire planet, because it once had a shadow base on it. They killed 4 million people to do this. They're gonna destroy the shadows once and for all along with anything and anyone that has been touched by them. It may not be a sword. But we have our three sides.

It's the shadows versus the volans versus everyone else. Brent, take us down your journey of your summoning.

Brent: So this episode for me was a very even keeled episode. A lot happened in it, but like, I mean, I kind of feel like I should apologize for the Brent Watches video this week, cuz a lot of it was really just me going Hmm, interesting. Hmm. And I'm not saying that I was bored, I was not bored through this episode at all.

It held my intention the entire way through. When Sheridan comes back there, uh, you know, and he's standing on that thing and he's, he's given his, his Bill Pullman Independence Day speech, or his Picard like, I mean, I feel like Sheridan's had a couple of these speech. You know what I mean? Like, put, put 'em in that, that, that YouTube video that takes like all the motivational speeches and sticks them in one, like continuous video.

Like he's gotta go in there. Um, but it was, I think, I feel like at the end of the season, this episode is going to get lost in the, um, in the, the ocean that is gonna be the rest of the season. Does that make sense? Like, like this, this episode doesn't feel like it hangs its hat on any one thing. Like there was this little thing and then this little thing and then this little thing and then this little thing.

But none of them were like huge. And I know there's people, what do you mean? Sheridan Cup back is huge. Like, I get it. Like that was an important moment, but I don't feel like anything was like, Like major happened in this particular episode. Does that, does that make sense at all what I'm saying?

Jeff: it does, but I don't necessarily agree like, well, I mean, I do and I don't like you're, It's like, okay, we knew Sheridan was coming

Brent: He had to come back, right? Yeah,

Jeff: We, yeah, we knew that was the thing. Was it huge and epic when he showed up? Yeah, that was awesome. Knew it was coming. But I almost think of this one as like the coming of shadows of this season where I think the coming of shadows was a great episode, but it did get overshadowed by overshadowed, uh, see what I did there.

Uh, but by other episodes in the second season, but that's what launched the Centara Narn conflict.

Brent: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeff: This is the episode. Well, I agree, totally agree. It's gonna get eclipsed, but this is the one that introduces the volans as adversary.

Brent: Hmm. Yeah.

Jeff: Does that, does that make sense?

Brent: Yep. And that's, as I know people are like, gonna comment, what do you mean this, this is what happened in this episode. And that I, yeah, I o uh, uh, eclipsed. That's a good word, Jeff. This episode's going to get a, uh, eclipsed. Um, overall I liked it. It, it was a fine 45 minutes, you know what I mean?

5 45 minutes. Um, I, some fun stuff happened, you know, um, some stuff to talk about. But, uh, Jeff, how about you Overall? What, what do you got

Jeff: this was like, we've had a, a long string of like great episodes from season three into

Brent: except for that King Arthur one? Yeah.

Jeff: Yeah. B basically from that point forward, th these have all been great and this was the hardest moment for me to not hit play, to watch the next episode was this

Brent: Oh, really? Because

Jeff: bec be because of the garabaldi.

Brent: Oh yeah.

Jeff: There is clearly something going on with Garabaldi and Yeah. I mean, wherever he was, whatever was going on with him through the whole episode. Right. He's just, he's always looking, looking around. He, he's the guy not buying into any of the hype. He's the guy asking questions, looking, I mean, he asked about Lian, and I'm like, that's a really good question, , like, who's this old dude wearing like, you know, crown, like royal investments that no one's

Brent: And she, and Sheridan's whole answer is, well, I trust him, so you should too. Well, I trust him, so you should too. No, no, no, no. I need more than that.

Jeff: you just came back from the dead. Like, I don't, I don't, I I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm into you, you know, being here , let alone that. So yeah, like, and, and the way that the episode ended with him starting to go after Laine, starting to go after Ivanova and Sheridan and other people, I was like, oh my God.

I gotta say like, all the other stuff was, It was amazing. I loved, I loved so much of what happened in this episode, but I was like, yeah, I'll catch that next week when we get ready to watch. I can't wait to see what happens with Garibaldi.

Brent: Yeah, well, I mean, let's, let's talk about 'em. So, uh, it probably was honestly the most interesting thing to me out of this episode of trying to track. So, last week had a whole episode called Whatever Happened to Mr. Garabaldi. We got his story for 140 seconds. Like, that's it. So he gets, I, I just want to track this because I still am super confused about what's going on.

He was told by Sheridan, I ha, you need to do a favor for me. And he winds up going off by himself in a star fury. And then he allowed himself to get captured by a, by a,

Jeff: I think the consensus has been that he was not expecting that part.

Brent: He was supposed to go after Sheridan to bring him home. Like, like we never, we never really know what it was. You and I can can conjecture unless did you, I don't know, one who was, did you catch something that I missed?

Jeff: Just, just that when it was coming over he was just like, oh my God, what's happened? Like he was not like, he was shocked and surprised when the SHA and it was, the scene was great too. Cause the shadow literally came over him when it happened. So he was not

Brent: And so he gets sucked into the ship because I wasn't sure if he was inside the ship or if he was had, like, just attached himself to the ship, like a stow away. Like I, I

Jeff: we know, we know they can attach, like they grab each other and fly off. We've seen them do that to damage shadow ships. So maybe they, I don't know if he was

Brent: But I mean, but we've seen this in sci-fi before. Somebody has a little tiny shuttle pod and they go and they just sort of land on a big enemy ship and they hide out like right there on their hole.

Jeff: and wait to get put out with the trash and go out in an asteroid field and then get swallowed by a find minx. And yeah,

Brent: Yeah. Or, or they're gonna take them back to their base and show me where you like whatever it is. Right. Uh, so, so Garabaldi gets sucked in and then at some point the shadows hand him over to Cy Cor

Jeff: We

Brent: who have him on a sh no, we'll know what we do because the guy, well, I mean, the guy came into the cell on the ship and he had a Cycore badge on.

Jeff: but the Cy Cyco and the shadows are, are part and parcel and tied together. I'm not convinced it was actually Cyco or just a, a dude wearing a Cyco outfit and maybe I'm, maybe I got my red yarn going back here quite a

Brent: I think you do. I think, I think that him was, they were clearly showing us the badge and so, and I mean, you could be right, they could be trying to fake us out about that. But for now, I think our information is to say, that was Cyco. And then the next thing we see is this thing. Program upload complete or something of that nature or activate program, and Aldi's eyes open and then they jettison whatever life pod he's in and give him back.

And now he's all whatever Garabaldi, like, I don't know if what, remember what happened to Talia where she had that, that personality supply. I don't know if he got something like that done to him. Um, I presumably he's all shifty and shaky cuz of what's happened to him. But I don't think that's it. I think something's, something's left with his mind.

Jeff: I think that we've seen this episode before and it was called a spider in the web, and this, he's a cyber zombie. I think Garra Baldi might be dead like that. Mars. The Mars, uh, was that Mars first? Like that dude was, and just has the control, you know, or whatever, which I, which we never really got a clear answer if that was tied to the tallest stuff or not, but,

Brent: No, because they dissected her

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: in a throwaway line. They dissected her. Jeff, I'm still so mad about that. Like, like I understand there were issues with the actress. I understand. She went on to another television show. What could have been with that storyline of her coming back as bad? Talia,

Jeff: Yeah. Could have been so

Brent: I've been so good.

So good. And I'm really mad that it was just a, Nope, we're getting her off the show because we didn't like her anymore and Oh yeah, now we dissected her.

Jeff: Yeah. She is not coming back. But yeah, so my, my operating theory right now is that this is the tie back to a spider in the web. And Garabaldi as we know him, is no longer on the board.

Brent: How sad does that make you? Because we've loved Garabaldi.

Jeff: Garabaldi, he was my favorite character in the first season. And then he's been kind of inconsistent since then. And I mean, we, we back in a lot of the third season had a lot of not great things to say about him, but still. It's Garrett Baldy man. Like if that's, if it's true and it comes out that he's got so thing in him, and I don't know if it'd be Alita this time, cuz there's no Talia, you know, who goes and tries to extract it from him and, and it turns out he's dead.

Like, oh, that's, mm, that's good storytelling. It's infu it'll be infuriating.

Brent: Well, because we're gonna, I mean, we're now gonna watch Garabaldi one with an attitude

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: and, and that's just gonna be annoying to be frank with you, you know?

Jeff: because he doesn't have the attitude, like Jerry Doyle doesn't have the attitude that the actor for, uh, Talia had to, to, cuz she was great. Like the, the second she transformed, she became one of my favorite characters, in the whole

Brent: Absolutely. Yeah.

Jeff: I don't think, I don't think, I don't think Jerry Doyle has that gear, at least not from what we've seen.

Brent: right. So, yeah. Um,

Jeff: I did love in Med lab, uh, cuz Zach brought him in. I thought it was cool too. Zach apparently leading the Star Fury wing.

Brent: dude, Zach had, Zach had the most chutzpah I've seen out of him in any episode to date

Jeff: Yeah. He's like, Hey, here's this. This is the problem. I'm going. And Ivan's or Len Len's, like, yeah, it's like

Brent: Yeah. Oh, dude. When he walked in with this, and I'm sure he is, had this uniform on for a handful of episodes, you know, but we gotta, I mean, we got a good look at this new uniform he's got on, he's got those shoulder pads that make his, his shoulders all pointy. And I'm like, I'm watching him and I, all of a sudden I start looking at everybody else in the show, delin, Lando, ve, and I'm going, oh, Jeff, these guys are into shoulder pads, just like Star Trek is like,

Jeff: sad but true.

Brent: So many shoulder pads, but his were just like, dang

Jeff: Yeah. You know what? Maybe they're propping him up to be a little more authoritative and stuff, cuz he's gonna replace. gu, but he's gonna be the new head of security and

Brent: Somebody's gotta step in and do it. Yeah.

Jeff: which is gonna be, that's gonna make it bittersweet, right? Like, I love to see Zack stepping up and doing more stuff, but, ah, but there was a cool scene.

He gets Garabaldi into Med Lab and he asked Dr. Franklin, he's like, dude, is he gonna be okay? And Dr. Franklin did like, it was so subtle, it was just this quick moment. But I'm like, that was super cool. As they, after they're done talking, he is like, yeah, he should be okay. We don't really know. We're gonna see what happens.

And Zack's like, okay man. And then Dr. Franklin looks at him, he says, good job on this one, Zach. And that was it Just gave him a little, you know, atta boy. And I was like, dude, that's good. That's super cool.

Brent: Yeah. I like it. I like it. Um, Jeff can, can we talk about the, uh, the opening scene with Ivanova? Hey, this is, this is, this does not beat, uh, Sinclair and Garabaldi putting Ivanova to sleep,

Jeff: That was, that was epic. That was, that's the best opening

Brent: This does not beat Sheridan and Delin on a day eating dinner. You know what I mean? Um, this, but this is gonna be, I'm, I'm gonna go ahead and slot this in as like, in at least the top 10 funniest scenes of Babel on five.

Right.

Jeff: It was. It was great.

Brent: Ivanova has been practicing Menari like Marcus told her two a year ago,

Jeff: Yeah. It's so cool.

Brent: she's trying, man, she's trying, she's trying. I loved it. And she's

Jeff: on her side, right? The lens. She's like, if anyone laughs at her, they will answer to me.

Brent: Right. Um, but y I always just so funny, I, and you know what I loved about that was watching Dylann and Marcus did a bit too, cuz they're clearly laughing at her, like they're doing everything they can to stop laughing at her because they appreciate what she's done. Like it's a, it's, it is possible to speak the truth, get done what you need to get done, and still protect people's feelings without lying to them.

Jeff: Right.

Brent: You know, because d they never lied and this wasn't an, an act of omission or anything like that. Like it was just a, uh, Dylan's Dylan's words of truth, you know, in the heat of battle, you actually need to be able to think this way and not just speak it and you're not good at speaking it yet. Um, so,

Jeff: for trying. That's great. You can

Brent: with you.

Jeff: Uhhuh . You can go play. You can do your stuff. That's great. That's

Brent: Yep. Yep. Uh, I, uh, I loved this scene. I thought it was, it was so good.

Jeff: I thought it was cool too, cuz it was a callback right at the end of the hour of the Wolf in her little, um, in her journal. She was like, I got some ideas on how to pick up on Captain Sheridan's work, but I'm gonna need some help. And it was just kinda left there hanging. I think this was it. Her idea was, I'm gonna go find the first ones, which I thought was gonna be an ongoing part of the third season where Ivano and Marcus were gonna go out.

So, I mean, I'm an entire season off, but, uh, it's better, you know, it's cool that they went out recruiting. It just makes

Brent: Okay, so Marcus and Ivanova going out, having conversations that you didn't quite see coming, I guess.

Jeff: No . No, not even a little bit like, I mean, what is it about Ivanova where Marcus felt it, that was a thing to share. Veer felt that that was a thing. He had to, like all the people who've never been to sixth base before, feel they have to share that with Ivan.

Brent: Oh, and we know Ivanna's been there, so, um,

Jeff: basin all the way around.

Brent: right. Uh,

Jeff: She's just such a great listener, I think

Brent: I guess, I guess, and, you know, and she looks at, she looks at, at Marcus and she's just like, ah, that's great. I'm sure somebody's gonna really appreciate that one day. And he is like, yes, and I hope it's you,

Jeff: right? . But I'm not gonna say that, but I am. It's, but I'm wearing it on my face soap. Uh, so

Brent: right. He's got.

Jeff: was a great scene, though. I loved it. It just, I mean, because Marcus kind of came in and they tried to give him a little bit of like the, not really a, not, not a bad guy story, but like bad things have happened to me.

Story, you know, he's got the traumatic upbringing. There's nobody left. Everyone that I loved dies. Sort of a thing, but then to like add to that, that like he, because it, it is, I don't think this was ever a case of like failing to round the bases. This was a choice that

Brent: that's choice made. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and, and by the way, I know that there are people out there and, and you're a few and far between who choose to wait. Uh, and you have my absolute and total respect. I tried doing that and didn't do very well, uh,

Jeff: Same. Same

Brent: I, you know, ain't ain't gonna lie.

Uh, yeah. Yeah. Um, I gotta say though, Marcus had a sweet line. I mean, it was a killer line. He says, people have reported seeing God-like figures here, and since neither you nor I were here, it must be the first ones. That was so good. It was so good on his part.

Jeff: Bella's good. Yeah. That the whole thing with them, you know, led to finding the vlan Volans in a fold of hyperspace.

Brent: Jeff. I still have problems with the way they use hyperspace on this show. I don't need to, they, it's how they've designed this universe to work and it's fine, but it bugs me.

Jeff: what was, what was that second season episode that we discuss? I mean, we got textbook thesis level dissertations from people on how hyperspace works. I forget

Brent: Um, it was, it was, uh, not the long, dark, the other, a distant star.

Jeff: Distant star. There you go. Sure. Would've been cool if in this thing where we're gonna teach you all about hyperspace, they mentioned there are folds and waves or some something. Not here. Two seasons later, like, oh, by the way, , they had this little technology. They were able to do a

Brent: in space. What I'm sitting there going, isn't that how wormholes work? It's, it's actually folding space. Like, like Yeah,

Jeff: that's how you travel in Dune, right? You have the guild navigators that used the spice to fold space together, and there's you move without moving. That's are, are they in fold space? Like is that what was happening? I

Brent: But that, but can you just go into the fold itself? Like the idea that you just go be in hyperspace like, like it's

Jeff: it's like you're not even,

Brent: that's out there. It still bugs me. It.

Jeff: it's like I, yeah. Well, I think, I think I can get behind, we're hanging out in hyperspace waiting, but what, where it starts to get iffy is right here where it's like, I'm gonna hide out in hyperspace. In hyperspace.

Brent: Right,

Jeff: You know what I mean? Like, oh no, it's not just hyperspace, it's like hyper hyperspace or whatever.

It's like, oh, okay. And then not only are we gonna like hide and tuck away in here, we're going to have a massive planet killing fleet with the biggest. M effing ship you have ever seen?

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: I think it was massive and no, it's just there. It's just hanging out.

Brent: Let's just be clear. The VLAN and, and also the shadows. These are not hive mind situations where if you take out the queen, everybody else goes away.

Jeff: Sure. Hope

Brent: I really hope that's not what this is. Um,

Jeff: especially if Lian is the the queen for both of them. Like the hive mind leader for both and you just take out Lian and you win the whole thing.

Brent: right.

Jeff: Somebody just freaked out when I said that.

Brent: Right. Somebody got in a car accident. Uh, so Sheridan had a really good moment where he recapped what they told us in the episode, Zaha Doom at the end of Season three, and just kind of brought it back in because there was, there was a bit of like, okay, we heard it from them, but those weren't the most trustworthy people.

So now Sheridan's come in and said the age clarified the whole thing. For people who've never seen the show before, they're just now catching up with Babylon five and the TV run. Uh, there used to be these people, long ago, two groups decided to stay around and help the new people, the shadows and the volans.

They just had different ideas of how to help. Like that's really their idea. It's just different ideas of how to help. The shadows are not trying to control the universe. They're not bent on, on, on, uh, domination. They're bent on helping people evolve. And you do that. By survival of the fittest. Right.

Jeff: conflict. Yeah.

Brent: And, uh, the, the volans are like, no, we're gonna help people through art and inspiring and Yeah.

And all of this sort of stuff. Um, and so that's, that's where we are with these two groups. Like, that's, that's the deal.

Jeff: Yeah. Really when Sheridan was describing it in the office, which was cool. Cause like you said, it recapped what happened in Zaha Doom and then added in what Lian gave him on Zaha Doom. In the hour of, no, the hour of the, but the last episode, you know, whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi. But the, what I kind of took out of that ultimately is what he's saying is neither of these are good or bad,

Brent: Right,

Jeff: they just are.

Brent: Yeah. It's just, it's two different ways of looking at it.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: That's really, really what it is. , you know,

Jeff: We see, we see the shadows as evil because they cause aggression. , right. Either from them or through between other races. So we see that as bad. But come to find out, um, volans are just as bad.

Brent: Yes.

Jeff: They just, they just weren't so in the open about it, you know? I mean, I mean, and, and I don't know, like there's, there's a whole

Brent: Wait, wait, wait. Were the Vons just as bad?

Jeff: That's what I was gonna say.

There's a whole conversation. Well, they killed 4 million people.

Brent: but that's different though. That's, that's a different situation. Because the way that I saw that was, okay, the shadows have now come and directly killed one of the Vons. They have attacks and killed a orlon, and however, that hurts the hole. Right? And now the volans are like, okay, enough of these ERs, we're cutting them out. We're, we're getting rid of every single one of them and we're taking out, what, what's that? You know, every, a little 11 elevens the whole lump. What Ivanova said something like, you gotta le take everything out. And, and if you take, well, Franklin was saying something about, yeah, but so what if you take the, the healthy stuff to go with it?

And they're like, I don't care. I got scooping it all out and we're gonna get rid of it, and then we're gonna leave everybody here and we're gonna, I guess they're gonna go away or they're gonna stay, but they're, and this is not them changing their mind. This is, they're going after the shadows and everyone else who happens to be in the way is just collateral damage.

They're, they don't care anymore because it's self-preservation at this point for them.

Jeff: Yeah. But I also think if, if you look back, Kosh old Kosh did a really good job of not ever engaging with the shadows. Like he would consult, he would give advice. It was Sheridan jumping down his throat and get in that big fight in the hallway that led them to launch a small fleet out to go take the shadows out.

That then led to the shadows coming and taking out Kosh. I think the thing was there were like, there were rules. They had rules. And Lian I think kind of explained some of the rules and some of it was like, we're not going to be the ones fighting, right? Like we're developing these nascent species out here to grow and evolve in whatever, and we'll do our things.

But the moment the VLAN attacked the shadows, the game changed. Hey, now, now it's good. And it could have been you took us out, we took out Kosh, we're good. It could have been that, but no, now they took out Kosh. Now the VLANs are wanting to get, get some of theirs back. And there's still this hanging piece of Sheridan opening an unexpected door.

We assumed that was him falling down in the Sarla pit and somehow getting to Lorian. But did he open that unexpected door by convincing old Kosh to, to attack the shadow?

Brent: Hmm.

Jeff: But I also think in saying that they're just as bad as the shadows. If we look at some of the things the Vons have done, we go back to season one and that incredible episode, death Walker.

Here's a person with a technology that's gonna head off and cause serious problems, right? Nope. Boom. Vons come out her off the map. Not even, not even a consideration. He walks in, takes her out, walks back, almost nothing said then. Fast forward to coming of shadows and everything that happened after the Na Sonari.

War War. Millions, billions of people dying, right? Just, I mean, death, destruction, horrible things going on. People are begging for help from the volans. From the Minbar. Boons don't help. They're. Not even gonna show up to the council meetings actually, as you talk about these things, so when a thing happens that can rip everyone apart, like death walker, they step in and blow her outta the water.

When something happens that has the capacity and the potential to unify and bring people together, like the Sonari war, they're hands off. Even if that means millions of people are gonna die, ultimately it could bring people together. In my, in my mind, that's just as bad as showing up and actively killing those million people or millions.

Brent: Is it. I mean it. Okay, so let's go back to Star Trek. Isn't that the prime directive?

Jeff: It is, but they've already violated the prime directive. I mean, they took out death walker, the, the, if they were

Brent: No, but that's, but, but that's not, no, no. You're allowing these people to grow on their own. And when somebody comes in who's overpowered? Well, now we're gonna step in, but we're going to allow these folks to grow and to fight and to war with each other if that's what they choose to do, or to grow peace.

And they've got to figure that stuff out for themselves. But we're not gonna let people come in and, and from the outside do something to them.

Jeff: But I don't think she was from the, she wasn't from the outside. The dil, Gar were just one of those worlds. I think I could buy that if they did that across the board. If, like, so when the Minbar and humans were at war with each other, if they came in and put a stop to

Brent: Uhhuh,

Jeff: if they, but it's, but it's a, it's literally, Hey, this is gonna divide people.

The death walker thing is gonna divide people, so we're gonna shut it down over here. The naden centara thing is gonna unite people, so we're gonna let it happen. The prime directive is about non interference, period. Not because of the outcome, whereas the volans are like, no, we, we are gonna make sure that you move forward in unifying yourself, even if that means the death of countless people.

Brent: Hmm.

Jeff: Prime directive talk. But I don't know. It's still a growing thought in my head,

Brent: Yeah, I can, we, can we, can we just say this in agreement though, Jeff? Uh, Kosh two electric, Boogaloo is an asshole.

Jeff: dude's bad news

Brent: Yeah. Um, but I, and, and apparently it's not just him and I, I, this isn't new news. This the VLAN as a whole, like Leeta has told us like there's something happening with the vlan. Like, like bad stuff's happening all the way around with those vlan.

Right. And this new one in particular is just the worst.

Jeff: But I guess the question is, Is this one the worst or is this one the way like this? Is this how the Volans are and Old Kosh was the exception? Like was he tainted from being around the other races so much?

Brent: isn't this new Kosh? Wasn't he the one who was on Minbar

Jeff: I think so. I don't know that. I don't know that. But see, that's the thing.

Brent: And if he's gonna be tainted, let him be tainted by the Minbar. He should be dope.

Jeff: he should be super cool. Look what happened to veer. Right.

Brent: Right. Um, so Le oversteps her bounds. Let's just say that. Okay. First of all, oh, were these gills she had in her neck when she was in that room with him?

Jeff: So I think I, I think I pieced all that together. So she said that she let them alter

Brent: Uhhuh.

Jeff: So whatever that atmosphere is that they're in, I think they altered her so she could breathe that atmosphere. And then she puts the mask off and on to kind of like hide it. Like she doesn't want people to know that she's altered.

but they also enhanced her psychic abilities or her telepathic

Brent: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to go back to the gill thing though, but when she's not in that room, they disappear and you can't see. She just got a, nor like she had a Kardashian neck like it was when she had those gills, but then when she wasn't in there, it was just normal. Nice. Then skinny little neck. Oh, that's all three.

Jeff: that was all three. Yeah. But yeah, it, it, it comes back. Nice. That's very clean. They did a great job. Yeah. Really good reconstructive surgery for her. But she said, she said a line when she was describing that I let you do these things to me because I believed,

Brent: Right?

Jeff: what did she believe? Like they're gonna take everybody out.

I don't think so, cuz she seems to be on team Babylon.

Brent: Sure she is. Yeah. Well, I, I think she believed in them. She believed in, in Kosh. She believed in the good. I believed, I believed you guys were here to help folks advance in a good way. Not a bad way. That's what I believed. And I believed you guys, I believed you guys were the ones to help this, that you guys were good and now you're not.

And, uh, she, but she oversteps her balance. She tries to read him

Jeff: yeah,

Brent: what's going on, and he turns around and goes, you wanna know what's going on in my mind? And then he gives it to her.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: And she screams

Jeff: It turns out we've got fricking Vos with fricking lasers on their heads as he blasts her and, yeah, I wanna know what she saw that she see the attack plans and that's why she was in her room and Ivanova had to come in. She's like, you know, you know, I feel like she, they, he had to have shown her more than just.

Brent: I What wa what was it? Would that have made her scream though? Like, ah, no. Like it sound and that wasn't a pain. That wasn't, uh, I can't believe the scream. That was a painful scream.

Jeff: Yeah. Well, I think too, it's been pretty well established that anytime he interacts with her, he goes out of his way to make it painful for her. There was that pretty awkward, um, line from her about when he, when he pulls out of her

Brent: You came out of me really hard,

Jeff: Yeah, that was a little, little on the nose.

Brent: Listen, , that's what she said.

Jeff: Well, I, after that joke, this feels disingenuous and I apologize, but, and I, I don't have experience here so I'm just gonna pose the question. I don't know that you can even answer it, but just to ponder, but this really felt to me, The entire Kosh new caution leader relationship, like an allegory for domestic violence.

Brent: You're right. I have no frame of reference for that of my own personal experience. I can see where you're going with that and that's an interesting idea to see it. Does that give us that as an allegory? That's, that's interesting. Uh, I have a personal role. I don't comment on stuff that I don't have experience with or I try not to anyway.

I don't say I'm always successful with it, but, so I'm not gonna comment on it further, but that does that, that seems like that could work, Jeff.

Jeff: I think I, yeah. And again, I, I'm in the same place. Like I don't want to speculate or I just, I'm, I'm, I'm putting the question out there cuz it, it really gave me pause.

Brent: Um, I, I, Jeff, all I've got left here is there's, there's the Carta Kar stuff. Um, and then I think just the overall bit of Sheridan and Lorian and them being back.

Jeff: Well, if, if it's cool, let's do this Sheridan LO's, because honestly, like I don't have a lot there. Like it happened, it was cool, but I don't have a whole lot on there. thing I did notice is when Drowsy, the Drossy guy was up on the thing and there was that other guy. Do we know what

Brent: He looked like a Mark Cab. You remember the Mark Hub? The guys that got like, wiped off? Only different,

Jeff: Yeah. He had a bigger

Brent: yeah. It, it was like, we're gonna use the Mark Cab makeup, but we're gonna change it just a bit. Is what?

Jeff: Like we didn't throw it all out. We still have some in the back. We can use that.

Brent: right. We got.

Jeff: But I, I thought it, I thought his outfit was striking in that he had like, you know, whatever clothes on, but he had these two sashes that were crossing over him. One was green and one was purple. Yes. And he was right next to Arazi.

Brent: Oh, oh, you serious? That's,

Jeff: I wonder if he's like, like the, the, the master of them all or something.

Brent: or he's, or he's just, uh, uh, what's, what's the word? Um, uh, he's razing him. He, he, he's, he's

Jeff: He's appropriating the, the, the drossy culture. . He's like, oh, I do a green and purple. I can do that too. And it's like, this is very offensive actually. Uh, it's green or purple. Not, and

Brent: Or the costing department was like, Hey, we've got all these sashes, let's

Jeff: here, but put 'em

Brent: Yeah. Um, yeah. So Sheridan walks in and, and I mean, I, I dunno about you, Jeff. I totally call Sheridan walking back in.

Jeff: Oh

Brent: No one's ever returned. And then you see like footsteps on it. Like, well obviously that's Sheridan who's returning like the

Jeff: Well when the ship was landing, little transport ship, you could see their silhouettes and it was clearly, and also they're just gonna let the ship dock. Oh, let's just sit and wait and see what happens.

Brent: Well they got the codes, uh,

Jeff: must, must, do you have men Barr circling the ship. You got these new guns pointing in you. Oh, let's just let 'em land and see what happens.

Not a good look.

Brent: and he brings Lori in with, I didn't expect him to bring Lori in with him.

Jeff: Yeah. That was a

Brent: Um, and you already talked about Gu Baldi and them in the thing being like, Hey, who's this dude? Uh, one thing, is Sheridan gonna leave Dylann?

Jeff: I don't think

Brent: Because there's this thing she, you know, she's meeting on the scaffold and he says, uh, I will never leave you. That is the kind of line that we have learned. JMS will drop. And pick it up in, what do we got? We got a season and change left here, Jeff. Like, oh. Oh, Jeff. Oh gosh. Jeff,

Jeff: she's his reason for living.

Brent: right, but Jeff, oh, I'm out of Star Trek references.

I can't do it. But we've, we know, we've seen this in another show where you get to the end and the guy has to leave for various reasons.

Jeff: and we've talked and wait, I talked about, uh, in the future scenes of War Without End, they talked about, um, the great

Brent: Sacrificing

Jeff: had to

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: Maybe, maybe that had something to do with it, maybe though also, maybe Sheridan was just saying the first thing that came to mind as he noticed Dalen ran, like suddenly seeing a spotlight shining on someone and going out of her way to run up and also be in that spotlight. Did you get that at all?

Brent: No, I, no, that was dude, that's her man. And she's pulled to her man. And if he happens to be in the spotlight, he's in the spotlight. I don't think she was trying to take that from him at all. I didn't catch that at all.

Jeff: Maybe I am just not a romantic, and if you ask my wife, she will, she will tell you that I am not a romantic person, but I totally had Naroon right here. He was sitting right behind where this keeper is usually on my neck. He was, he was right behind me saying, look, she's politicking again. Look at her making sure she's a part of the big scene that's going on.

I don't know. She, she's not an idiot. Right.

Brent: I, yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna chalk that up to you not being a romantic, cuz that was, that was, that was purely a love move right there.

Jeff: that's fair.

Brent: Alright.

Jeff: do think though, and I, I said it in the recap and I gotta put it here again. There was so much tension, stress,

Brent: Uh.

Jeff: everything built up around, we have one week. We have one week till Thelen, you made this up as a manager, as a project manager, as a leader. Like, oh my, this is why projects fail. Hey, we're gonna go do this thing.

Okay? Uh, it's gonna take us six weeks to get a, Nope. We're gonna do it in. What? Like, why, why?

Brent: Right.

Jeff: Well, so we have dramatic tension, that's why.

Brent: Gotta push it forward, right? That's what good leaders do.

Jeff: apparently.

Brent: All right, so let's talk court gestures.

Jeff: Well, Brent, I would like to introduce a new segment, uh, to our show here in this, uh, fourth season. Ladies and gentlemen, it is now time for Jeff to review the stations of the cross, as told through Kar,

the first station of the cross is that Jesus was condemned to death and crowned with thorns, which includes the scouring at the pillar, huh Ja car tied up to a pillar and a dude whipping him. Is almost beat for beat, what happens in the first station of the cross. But hey, that's not all. In the second station is when Jesus accepts his cross, which I think is where Ja car accepted Rondo's deal.

That was in the last episode where he is like, yeah, I'll do this. But today we got that first one and we also got the third station, which was Jesus falls for the first time. So as he's dancing around in his little jester outfit and whatever, and dude trips him, Jaar Falls for the first time. We have three of the 14 stations so far.

Brent: there's 14 of these things.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. And they get pretty repetitive. Like he falls three times and, and there's stuff I I, I, if they fit three in each episode, I, I still think that's not fast enough. I don't see this, I don't see this going on.

Brent: yeah. This is, this is like, uh, yeah, I, Jeff, I gotta tell you, I didn't think that the na sonari war was gonna last like all of season two,

Jeff: True.

Brent: and it did. So I like, I wanna sit here and be like, yeah, this is only like six or seven episodes, but this could go on for a while because at some point, doesn't this have to drive Kar and Lando back together,

Jeff: Uh, yes. That, that,

Brent: in whatever form that is.

Like it's gotta drive them back together, like,

Jeff: it's going to the bond, right? Uh, when I think you, you, uh, disabused me of thinking of it being a friendship, but this is gonna drive that bond for them for sure.

Brent: I wonder how he's, it occurs to me. I'm just, I'm just throwing something out here, Jeff. Cause I'm trying to think like, how's Lando gonna save Ja car? Right. Carta Carta said, Hey, listen, he's a gift. And I know he said at one point, like, I know I said he was a gift, but I gotta get a scream out of him.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: so he is got scream, right?

He's he's got it. Um, if he's a gift, is it possible that Kar becomes like, Londo slave

Jeff: Oh,

Brent: Londo makes him a slave to protect him?

Jeff: maybe

Brent: You know what I mean? And that's why like, like he jaar really becomes like Londo servant, at least on the surface. But. Really,

Jeff: able to give him,

Brent: there than anything like.

Jeff: able to give him a little like, Safety. You know, like I come to my quarters, you're gonna serve me in veer, you can sleep for a while and rest. I would buy that if, if Cartio wasn't freaking crazy.

Brent: Yeah,

Jeff: You know what I mean? And because he just waffles so much. I, here, here's your gift, he can become your slave.

And then he shows up. He's like, I need your slave cuz I'm gonna do this random thing. I just don't see him letting go.

Brent: But I mean, the other thing is, I mean, at some point they've gotta kill car Taja cuz Londo has to ascend to the throne.

Jeff: Yeah. It's going to

Brent: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: I do, I I, I mean, I've said it every episode of this season so far, but in this, this one, my favorite Carta moment in this one when was in like, oh, even my best tortures pain technicians since they've been organized, like just poo-pooing on a group of workers organizing, like I am so into him as a bad guy.

He is awesome.

Brent: disgusting. He is absolutely disgusting. Um, oh yeah, I, I, I've used my, I've used my references. I'm, I'm

Jeff: Look at that. See, you gotta be, you gotta think about this. I, I think I know where you're going. I'm not gonna give it to you, but, uh,

Brent: well then you take it

Jeff: that's what I was

Brent: compare him as a torturer to somebody else.

Jeff: the what?

Brent: Comparing, comparing Carta and how he behaved as a torture to somebody else.

Jeff: Oh, I wasn't going there with

Brent: Oh, okay.

Jeff: I was just going with like, I, what a great job they did. Making Duco Goal Gold. Duco a villain that you loved. Right. You know, it's like, God, he's so, he, he sick and crazy, but I love it when he is on screen. Like, that's Carta for me,

Brent: I don't love when he's on screen.

Jeff: Carta when car's on

Brent: not love when he's on screen. No,

Jeff: Really?

Brent: not at all. Not at all. Everything about him makes me just revolt. Like I, I just, ugh. I will say this though. I thought this was, this was rather funny. They've got him come out with these red hands stained with ja car's, blood, and he has this little bowl next to him that he could wash at any moment, but he chooses not to.

He's just whatever. And then he goes to wash his hands. Nothing comes off his hands. His hands come outta that bowl just as red as they went in. And yeah, I know they showed us the red water that he poured into the thing, which that's pretty, it'll be good for the plant. Like that dude is sick and twisted, but I just, like, I didn't, I I wouldn't necessarily expect them to become clean, but, but

Jeff: but

Brent: something, they were literally the exact same.

Jeff: I was just impressed that none of it was like splashed on his white,

Brent: He had some on his sleeves. They did stuff on his sleeves and I don't know how easy that is for them to take outta the costume cuz those costumes are expensive.

Jeff: Yeah, so I had a couple kind of, um, I don't know, I think cool notes on this one. One I thought it was interesting at first, they, they focused on 40 lashes. 40 lashes that gets high. The electro whip, you know, ramps up and you die. 40 lashes, that's a thing. And Deuteronomy, right? So if you, uh, if you get more than 40 lashes, that's inhumane on there.

And so j uh, the Jewish people from that those days forward had a rule that you could only sentence someone to up to 39 lashes cuz you didn't want to make a mistake and act action, you know, like lose count and accidentally do more than 40. So 39 was, uh, was the cap. I thought this was a really well done way of slipping that reference in.

Brent: Um, by the way, that number maintained throughout history in multiple cultures, like that was the same number that was instituted by the British Empire. I believe that that was also supposed to be the same number that was instituted in America during its slavery, although I don't think people followed it.

Um,

Jeff: not.

Brent: uh, but also you speak about the stations of the cross, 39 lashes is what Jesus himself received, uh, with the Cat of Nine Tales. Right? And they had to hold like that last one, like they had to hold, uh, Hold, hold a couple of the, of the things back so that he wouldn't get more than than

Jeff: Yeah. Because even, even though they were gonna kill him, they couldn't, they couldn't treat him as less than a human. I thought it was a really great callback. So the scene between Yolanda and Kar, where Lando was trying to tell me he needed to scream and he was like, you, that, that you can't, that is the most offensive thing ever to me.

When I first watched that, the first, on the first, on my first watch through, I was just like, dude, drop your macho pretense. Suck it up. Scream, and like, come on, do it. But on my second watch through, I remembered the long twilight struggle when Nan's getting blasted, right? The mass drivers are coming down and somebody from the nan home world calls Kar and they're like, dude, you're the last member of the Kari and I'm gonna have to ask you to do the most difficult thing I've ever asked you to do before.

And then the scene cuts and he goes, and he a, he's got tears in his eyes as he asks Sheridan for sanctuary. And you and I were just like, well, what else? Like that can't be the worst thing they've ever asked him to do. But it was cuz that was screaming, that was admitting. Weakness and pain and all of those things.

And I guess that's a part of the narn culture I never really picked up on, and maybe that's on me, but I was able on my second watch to tie this back to that and be like, oh, okay, now I get it. That was, I get where that would be the hardest thing ever to ask him. And then in the end when he did scream, it's, it's just, it's, it's, it's interesting to me because culturally that's a low point for Kar, but I think personally it's probably the bravest thing he has ever done in his entire

Brent: Right.

Jeff: And of course, my last note, veer is all in on killing this dude

Brent: See, that's a

Jeff: Like that's, that, that's, yeah. That's how bad he

Brent: you, you remember when I said no. Forget that I'm in. Let's go kill 'em. Kill 'em all. Well, Jeff, uh, with that, I think we have reached that part of the show where it is time to boil it all down and see if this episode has any of those deep moral messages we're looking for.

Is it holding up a mirror to society? Is it giving his hope that we'll be better in the future? And at the same time, how is it doing it in a Babylon five way? You, my friend, are gonna rate this episode on a scale of zero to five Delta Furies to see how strong the message is and how Babylon five it was.

Jeff, what you got?

Jeff: I must not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little death that brings total oblation. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path or the fear is gone. There will be nothing. Only I will remain. This is the litany of fear from Dune and it demonstrates how we should face our fear, how we should face our fear.

This epi. This episode showed us the exact opposite of that in the Zocalo protest scene. The masses were so easily swayed. They were quick to turn on Dalen. They even attacked, physically attacked her and Lanier. But when Sheridan showed up and he said some words, yeah, they were great words, but he said some words, they immediately flipped and they were all Team Menari, team Dalen, team Sheridan, just like that.

After that speech, they're they, they were excited. They were cheering. It was supposed to be this big hooray moment. My heart broke in that moment. That's our entire history of humanity. It's our current day, what's happening right now, and apparently it's gonna be our future as well. We just go. Whatever way the wind happens to be blowing.

You know, rush actually has a song about this. It's from their snakes and arrows. They do exactly right. I love these times that I can pull in a rush song, but it's from their Snakes and Arrows record. It says, we can only go the way the wind blows. We can only bow to the here and now, or be broken down, blow by blow.

The masses are afraid. They live in constant fear. Fear of judgment, fear of missing out, fear of whatever it is that we're being told to fear. In this scene, we have two sides that are honestly both kind of right, but almost anyone there wants to do is be left alone and to be safe, or at least, you know, be able to consider themselves to be safe.

If keeping a low profile with the shadows does that, they're all for it. If blasting Zaha Doom does that, well, they're all for that too, but they don't know what's gonna make that happen. What they do know is the guy saying that we should go low is up on a pedestal and he's yelling soap. Well better listen to him.

He pro, he's probably right. And that's like, that's for both Drossy, the Drossy guy and for Sheridan. The people are afraid to look contrary to the people around them. They're afraid to stand up with their own thoughts, with their own ideas. So they just go the way the wind blows. So here's my conundrum on this one, right?

Like what a message. Like just don't go the way the wind blows , right? This is a painful and very necessary message. So I can go high right on this one, or I can go low because ultimately it shows us that we don't get any better. We don't grow from this. We are still held captive to fear even in the end of the 23rd century.

Everything, everything in this episode was motivated by fear. It wasn't just that protest scene, that's just what brought it right to my attention. But we have Londo fearing for the future of the Sonari and he's making all of his choices based on that Kar fearing for his pride and his cultural humility.

We have Lida fearing the vo garabaldi fearing the unknown in, in something that we don't know anything about yet. Lorian literally fearing the worst. And Marcus fearing, well, I mean, I could have gone down a path of virtue and romance for this section, you know, but it's, it's fine. So I'll just, I'll lay off Marcus, like everyone else in his life has.

So I'm gonna do it. I am gonna give this one because it has the concept of fear and how it drives us to do both good and bad things. The way that we so rarely make those decisions based on us and what matters to us, but more on what way the wind is blowing. Oh, doesn't get more babble on five than that.

This is a five Delta Fury episode.

Brent: You know why I like that is because it wasn't just one plot line that was delivering that message. All the different threads within this episode, as you just pointed out, were delivering that same message just in the unique way of the particular characters that they were facing at the time. Um, I'm with it.

I like.

Jeff: cool. But we are creating the absolute 100%, completely accurate and definitive ranking of the fourth season of Babylon five. Currently, our rankings are in number one, whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi and number two, the hour of the wolf in Brent, is on you, my friend. Where are you ranking the summoning?

Brent: Well, we only at one, two, and three, and we liked whatever happened to Mr. Gubai better than we did the Hour of the Wolf. The Hour of the Wolf, if I remember right, was, uh, it was another one of those just, it was, it was, Hey, here's what happens next. Like, we had the big finale last season, here's the week after, and Sheridan's missing, and we're picking up the rubble from that.

Right? Um, whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi advanced some stuff. It showed us what happened to Sheridan. Barely showed us what happened to Mr. Garabaldi. And in this one, again, I think this episode is going to get, I'm gonna use your word Jeff, eclipsed by the end of the season. Um, because I, you're right, I think there are things that were started in this episode that are gonna be huge, but we're not gonna look back on 'em and remember that they started in this episode.

Does that make sense? So I do think that whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi is gonna be more of a memorable episode for what happened there. So I'm gonna put this one right in between, in our new number two. And I'm saying this to say, you guys, please save your comments. This does not mean I didn't like this episode. I actually liked this episode. This is a fine episode. I just think we're gonna, we're gonna catch more of these storylines that are, that are happening here in future episodes.

Jeff: well, I think it was hard. We talked about in the season three wrap up. That's such a great season, you know? And it was, you gotta shake him out. And I think you, in that wrap up, put it, put it really well, and I'm, I'm gonna say it wrong, but it's basically, there are these many episodes that were amazing, incredible, timeless, always watch again, this many that were great, awesome, and amazing, and this many that were super, super good.

And then one that was pure, unadulterated garbage and should be criminally prosecuted.

Brent: And that's not a 17 is missing.

Jeff: It is not . That was actually, and that's in a good, really good

Brent: I like that episode quite a bit.

Jeff: it's fun. But yeah, so far with these three, they're great. They're awesome. And, and I mean, really this is, as I talk about the stations of the cross, this is the cross that you and I have to bear, Brent.

We have to rank these things. We have to choose what's gonna go on top of some of the greatest pieces of television ever written. And we're doing that. Oh dear. Listener for you. You're welcome.

Brent: I'm gonna let it go. Nevermind. Sorry.

Jeff: All that build up, I'm only pushing a little bit.

Brent: Yep. Go.

Jeff: Well, that's it for the summoning. Next week we like to play this little game where I drop the name of the episode. The next one's gonna be called Falling Toward Apotheosis. I dropped that episode. It's probably the first time Brent has ever heard that, but we're gonna guess what this episode is gonna be about based on everything we know up to this episode so far, and the title alone.

Brent, you get to go first. What do you think falling toward Apotheosis is gonna be about?

Brent: What I was gonna say a moment ago, I think what we're gonna find, at least with these early episodes of season four, maybe even season four as a whole, is it's gonna be, it's gonna become harder and harder to delineate individual episodes, and we're gonna be looking at the season as a whole,

Jeff: Ah, did we set a precedent

Brent: think. Yeah.

Jeff: War Without

Brent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you, but you know what I mean. Like it's, it's going to be really hard to think about here's this episode and then this episode, and then this episode and how this episode handles it is, and even trying to remember what episode did what, as much as it is just, here's the whole thing, you know?

And, and that's, and that's where it is. That being said, that plays into this next episode. What did you say? It's called something off.

Jeff: Yeah. Falling toward apo.

Brent: I've never heard that word before in my life. I'm a fairly well-read person. I have a fairly large vocabulary despite what my children think, uh, and my wife thinks sometimes.

apotheosis, apotheosis reminds me of the word apothecary. It also reminds me of the word aposty. And an aposty is when someone leaves their faith. And given how things are shaking out, somebody leaving their faith. I don't think this is Kar who's kind of a priest among his people, uh, abandoning Jaquan or anything like that, or Ja Kosh.

Um, but maybe this does have something to do with Kosh or specifically the Volans who are up to something. They're amassing for war. They're doing something they shouldn't be doing. They are leaving the faith. They are, they are, uh, not being the force for good in the universe that they, that we've propped them up to be.

Let's put it that way. You know what I mean? Like, maybe they weren't really ever the force for good, but we've propped them up to be that, uh, or they've propped themselves. Um, so angels who are falling, uh, So I'm gonna, I'm gonna start with that. I think, I think that this, uh, falling towards apotheosis is something to do with the volans leaving, like f forwarding that idea, leaving what they have established over the millennia of how they operate. You're gonna come in and tell me the definition of Osis and it's gonna, not gonna mean that at all. Go ahead. Jeff.

Jeff: I am gonna, I am gonna tell you the definition.

Brent: Did you look it up? Did you look it up? Or did you know?

Jeff: I know it because of Battlestar Galactica. They have an episode called Apotheosis. And I looked it up way back then. I was like, apotheosis, that's a fun word. What is that? And it was one that stuck with me, and it's so fitting. I don't know, like, just all the stories going on.

This props up a lot of possibilities. So apotheosis is the process of becoming a God.

Brent: the process of becoming a God.

Jeff: Yes. So when you think about like, uh, really like Greek Roman mythology and some of the early pagan, what we call pagan religions, where people could be or, or sonari religions for that matter. Uh, that process of ascending to godhood is called a pothe. And falling toward means, uh, that, that, that that's not necessarily happening intentionally,

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: that it's coming at you.

So I think we're gonna get two big stories in this one. The first one is gonna be Cartia. Um, he made the deal with the shadows, you know, make him a God. And he is now gonna start learning. He's not gonna know it, but Londo is gonna recognize this pattern of they made a deal and now they're gonna come back wanting more.

So the Volans are going after them in their bases. So they're gonna want more land on Sonari Prime and they're gonna hold that godhood of Caria. This is gonna be a lot of Morden, um, being, you know, being morden. We might, we might see more of his, uh, transformation that he's going through. May maybe, maybe we get new Morden out of it, but he's gonna be there, um, holding Cartage as godhood captive.

But I think the other move towards divinity we're gonna see is Sheridan. And not necessarily in the Cartage sense of becoming a God, but more in the Greek mythology sense of, I'm gonna go on a great quest. I'm gonna slay, uh, a mythical being and I am going to ascend to God as a result. I think that Sheridan is going to fight legends. He's gonna go one on one with the Kosh one. I think it's all gonna come to a head and they're gonna fight. And I don't think it's gonna, I don't think it will end. You know what I mean? I think one of the two of them will leave, or Lorianne will, we'll, we'll, we'll learn more about Lorian, but this is gonna be a massive step in Sheridan starting to be seen in that.

Ah, God. I wouldn't, I'm gonna say savior, but I don't mean like savior, I mean like saving us from war kind of a role.

Brent: Interest.

Jeff: And we'll find out right here next week. Thank you all so much for joining us. Listen, we love when you leave us ratings and reviews. I love reading them here on the podcast, but if you could do one thing for me right now at this very moment, if you're watching us on YouTube, if you're listening to us on whatever podcast app you are, there's a share button.

I want you to click that share button, and I want you to send this to somebody you know who either needs to watch Babbel on five or had watched it before. Just do us a huge favor. Give us that follow, subscribe, and share our show with somebody. Tell us about it. It would mean the absolute world to us, Brent, until next time.

Brent: Jeff,

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, man. What's

Brent: you know it, it's kind of late and um, I'm pretty tired, so I think I'm just gonna head to bed now.

Jeff: Well, at least you still have a mattress.