There All the Honor Lies | For the Second Time

[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we don't. Have you ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much.

[0:22] We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time.

[0:33] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Out.

[0:38] And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, and then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time, and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time.

[0:50] Keeping an eye out for all those things there's no possible way we could have noticed or known about the first time around. That's right but you know what we are still doing even though this is our second time jeff we are searching for those sci-fi messages that are found within the series preferably those that we missed the first time around we're asking things like and we've learned we've we've made this better you know what i mean like we've we've narrowed in our focus of how we look for these we're looking for things that are mirrors to society things that give us hope that things can be better in the future jeff and we certainly need hope or things that just tell us how to be better human beings to one another yeah well that being said as jeff has mentioned as i have mentioned we have seen this show all the way through before this is our second go around unlike the first time this one full of spoilers we everything's on the table everything from any point in the franchise any episode any movie any spinoff series comic book extra source material it's all fair game for jeff and I to talk about so if you have not watched this incredible series for the very first time consider this your spoiler warning stop right here go catch us on our spoiler free version at for the first time and when you get all the way through that come back and check us out here this week Brent we are watching there all the honor lies for the second time.

[2:09] Last week, I talked about how excited I am for you to see this one again and for us to watch it. I have really fond memories of this one. This is the one with the store, right? Like, what is this? Some deep space franchise? This place is about something. It's such a quotable episode. We got awesome Londo and Jakar, I remember. We get some incredible Kosh and Sheridan stuff. I can remember really diving into the stuff around that and enjoying the conversation. Is this the one where they like to go into the thing and like, it looks like they're like under the floorboards or something. And like, they're doing the music thing. They're going to chant and all that. This is that one. It is. Yeah. All right. All right. Yeah. I have very fond memories of this episode. Do you remember what you thought the first time? Look, it's second half of season two, which means I probably liked it. Right.

[2:58] I, except for what you just told me right there, Jeff, I couldn't tell you what was actually contained in this specific episode.

[3:04] Okay. You know, like you, we couldn't be talking to be like, yeah, yeah. when we watched there all the orange and i'd be like yeah what happened in that episode i don't know but now that you say that i remember i remember the floorboards i remember the gregorian chant kosh is teaching sheridan how to kill legends or fight legends or whatever it is right um and then and then avanova just has probably the second coolest line of the entire series if not the coolest line of the whole series yeah so um yeah it just just great great line the the thing i will say is this is probably the episode that i have the single most trouble remembering the title yeah is it they're all the honor lies their lies all the honor they're the honor lies their lies now i messed up on it the honor there is all the lies all the lies of honor right right so like i i know i probably messes up i'm pretty sure if you go back and you look at our for the first watch uh because i think i uploaded that particular episode or this episode i probably screwed up writing the title down in fact i'm sure i did because i remember getting notes from people like comments from people like that's not the title of this episode sure it is sure it is sorry same thing when i was doing beam me up i i put the arena down i got so many it's not the arena it's just arena it's like okay hey gosh do you know it's not home depot it's the home depot is it really oh it is it's the home depot don't just say home depot So, hey, it's not Disney World.

[4:30] There's a Disneyland. Absolutely. There's no Disney World. That does not exist. It is Walt Disney World, Bob. And don't you forget it. Brent, we should open a business called Home Depot. I feel like we would do pretty well.

[4:42] And they can't get us in trouble for copywriting because theirs has a the. Exactly. Ours has an extra quarter note. It's totally, totally different. Totally different. Brent, I went back. I listened to our first time episode on our first time watching this. Do you want to hear what we actually thought? Oh, what did we actually thought? I'm going to quote you to start. Okay. Not even a laundry episode. I might watch this for a little bit on the first commercial break. I'm looking for something else this was a bunch of half-baked b plots that they weakly strung together very very underwhelmed wow and it's second half it's post grow pose uh-huh wow okay i said i liked parts of it but it was a mess it was all over the place and just not good jeff you and i are such a-holes man i know i can't believe we would say something like that Oh, I, I came out swinging the, this one had the, has the commercial break, the, the commercial stinger thing in it. Did they edit out? Yeah, it's in it. It's in there. And like, you probably hit it 12 times during the thing.

[5:50] And I called that near the end. I'm like, that was the high point of the whole episode. Oh man. Was that stinger? You know, the thing is we've, we've changed our format of how we do the show. And I don't have that. Like I had that in the, in the list. Like I could call it up at any moment. I don't have it in there anymore. I can't do that. Well, that's, I'm already disappointed. Be great to have thrown it. Uh, you thought the idea of the store in this was probably JMS sticking his nose at the studio for trying to merchandise the series. That would make sense to me. That still makes sense to me. That's not what it is. I know what it is now, but we'll talk about that. Cool. I'm excited to hear that.

[6:28] We, uh, we had, we had a couple of cool things that we said. You said that with, without Jakar Lando just isn't Lando. And we kind of decided that Lando and Jakar are a character in and of themselves. You predicted and I agreed that. Hold on. Stop, stop, stop. Let's talk about that just for a second. Is that true? What do you think? I do. I think there is Lando. I think there's Jakar and there's Lando and Jakar.

[6:53] Yeah. And Lando and Jakar is the superior character. I agree. They're all great. All great i it's yeah it's long like without i mean jacar is a great character on his own londo's great character on his own but compared to those two together in an elevator oh my gosh we're not too far away from that we're not too far away you predicted that sheridan much like sinclair is also part minbari and a lot of that is just porting over sinclair's storyline to sheridan oh yeah okay picking up some of those pieces we're i'm glad i'm so glad jms did not just full tilt port sinclair like he allowed sinclair to be his own character and have his own thing and have sheridan be uh a completely different situation going on it's that whole idea of creativity from constraints you know when when you have a limitless budget and no schedule or whatever. And you're like, I could make the greatest thing ever. Yeah. No one has ever done that. It's the person who's like, hey, this is a hundred thousand idea, a hundred thousand dollar idea. Here's a hundred dollars.

[8:03] Right. Figure it out. And then they'd come up with something incredible because of the constraints. And I think that that was a thing that made from what we read of the first, the pitch for the first arc of this. I think what we ended up with was superior. We got more great characters out of it. Yeah. And that's because of the constraints of reality. It's where, you know, when we go back and we look at the original plan and you're like, man, that would have been a cool, cool thing to get. Maybe but what we got because of the changes that had to happen was was better like those things amped it up and made and and refined it and that's why you said i can say even if michael didn't leave the show there would have still been enough changes over the course of five years that that that story is not the one we would have gotten in the end anyway agreed that's what i got out of our first time listen you just alluded to having some answers so when you were scouring the web from things from the maker himself jms what did you find out there so the title of the episode yeah comes from an alexander pope um essay poem something called an essay on man epistle number four okay this will number four i wonder if you had read epistles one two and three to understand epistle number four that's a good question or you know was there a previously on yeah just recap the whole thing or did did did maybe like in the early parts of epistle four it tell you what happened in one two three and four without saying here's what happened in one two three and four it like encapsulated it.

[9:32] And just kind of caught you up without you actually realizing you were being caught up and the only way that you would know if you'd been caught up is if you had watched all of those things and otherwise it's just this is part of the story it's almost a pre-pistle instead of just an epistle well it's it's it's a it's a it's a it's a pistol show without being a pistol show exactly no anyway the the line goes honor and shame from no condition rise act well your part they're all the honor lies i like that a lot i like that a lot and i really this is one of those we know jms pulls a lot of his stuff from from high literary places and while the title is just there all the honor lies i i'm interested in watching this episode through the eyes of that entire verse and you know like is this just the clue to say actually it's the whole verse how much of it is honor and shame from no condition rise god that's i mean honor and shame from no condition rise like you either one honor and shame they they both can come up so act well your part do what you got to do because in what your actions are and what you do that's what that's where all that's where all lies yeah that's incredible Oh man, that's, that's, oh, that's so deep. Oh, that's so good. So good.

[10:45] In the, in the Babylon 5 gift shop, there is a bronze model of the, the station after this episode that station will move to sheridan's office oh where it will remain through the reign of the through the remainder of the show and it's his right as captain to have a model of his station in his office as we see other starship captains have models of their ships jms though does say once the show is finally off the air remember he's writing this while the show is still going right it says once the show is finally off the air be assured that model will end up in this captain's office okay to which i have a question where is it jms do you is it still in your office like i have certain things around here that are from previous shows that i've done other things i've worked on mementos and stuff i wonder if you know especially a babylon 5 thing like that's that's his is it fair to say babylon 5 is jms's opus i think so i'm just trying to think i don't know that he would agree but i think he would i i mean it happened when he was so much younger you know he's had he's had such a career afterwards but i mean that that saga was was just has not been matched i mean need to say not been mad yeah he's.

[11:56] Well it's it's it's his it is truly his the other things that he's done been in partnership with other people or may have started it as his and then studios got involved and did stuff so all right i want to talk about this in two parts one i'm going to talk about it here but then when we get to this part of the episode i'm want to talk about it more okay talking about the bear specifically the bear jms says this i hate cute everyone who knows me knows that so after buying peter david's script number two peter david wrote this particular episode peter sent me a gift it was a bear a teddy bear.

[12:31] With my initials js on the front and bear belong five on the back so i called peter back and i say i'm gonna get you for this he asks what he had in mind and i simply said wait and see so i wrote the entire bear thing at the end of the show into the script he sent us inserted it it infiltrated it right into his script his final word on it never send me something cute that's great that's so great there's no way i ever would have guessed that watching that the first time and just seeing that scene which is incredible but that's so much better than anything i would have come up with there is a little bit more to this story but i we're when we get to this scene in the show i'm gonna because you remember what happens to the bear at the end yeah it gets spaced he spaces the bear and get a big old close-up of it coming up right into the camera and it's all spinning or whatever yeah yeah absolutely absolutely um yeah everything else jeff we could talk about during the episode. So let's go watch an episode. What do you say? It's time. Hey, if you're joining us for the first time, welcome. We're so glad you're here. This is going to be a lot of fun. What's going to happen now is we're going to pull the episode up right here. You're going to see it on the screen. I'm pointing to where it's going to show up.

[13:45] Brent and I are going to watch it real time. We haven't, what's been probably two some odd years since we've maybe three some odd years since we've watched this before. We're going to watch it and react to it. Talk about it, pause it, dive into stuff. If you're watching this on YouTube, you'll see that get kind of chopped up and edited in the YouTube style. If you want to see the full and unedited version of it, we have that posted on our Patreon, which is patreon.com slash bad nerds. And if you guys are listening to this on an audio podcasting app, you are going to hear basically the audio from what Jeff and I, what Jeff was just talking about. We're going to put that on because we want you to be a part of the conversation as well. And then after that, we'll talk about it more when we get there. So Jeff, Let's go watch an episode. Let's see where that honor lies. Accessing file. It's a cool little bit of SG right there. Merchandising? Or CG. We're being merchandised? You can't be serious, sir. Their studies indicate that the sale of merchandise relating to Babylon 5 system-wide could generate a projected 2 million credits over the next year, earmarked for our operating budget. Why don't they just open up a gift shop? Exactly what they're doing down in this Okolo right now. It'll sell to residents, tourists, visiting VIPs, anyone who wants a gift for themselves. It's not a bad idea.

[15:04] Why would you not have had a gift shop at this point? Welcome to Babylon 5, the last best hope for a quick buck. Commander. Oh, this is demeaning. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something. That's why I'm putting you on charge to oversee. So, oh, I didn't bring it in. So, JMS talks about that line and Peter David writes it in the script. Yeah. kind of as a joke and sent it back and like they buy the script they do whatever james sends anything and so peter calls him up and he's like are you leaving that line in and he goes yeah it's hilarious we're absolutely leaving it in and peter david's response was something to the effect of you guys like to live dangerously over there you're playing with fire very very rich and lawyered up fire right right it's fall down funny you people really are dangerous over there aren't you yeah um katerina says i'm wondering how much of this is related to jamis's experience with all the merch for captain power and so on which goes back to my original thing this some of this might actually be like i there's nothing that i've seen that negates my original theory that this is a response to the merchandising arm of studios the star warsification of science fiction yeah.

[16:19] I mean, it might not be, but it totally could be. Why me? I hate this whole idea. Exactly. I'm counting on you to focus that hostility with your typical diligence and make sure that this station and its inhabitants are in no way, as you so correctly put it, demeaned. Such a great manager call. Would you see if they have any baseball caps?

[16:40] Wow. For my sister. If looks could kill. She's just like, are you kidding me right now? Also, hey, remember he has a sister? Uh-huh. That's a thing. Oh, I forgot about this part. My Link. Hey! Hey, you! Come back here! This is set. Do we ever see this again? Like the multi-level set like this? Yeah. Sorry. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. That's enough get back dude his death first.

[17:21] Sheridan's ability to stop while he's in the midst of being attacked and towered over not just shoot but to be able to say give him a stop that's enough you know like while while this wasn't sheridan standing over top of the guy saying this is sheridan down on the ground looking up he just got knocked down and to still be able to say stop rather than just oh you're threatening my life right now and you've just put hands on me too that's that is a remarkable thing also piece of fiction not in the real situation in the real world well the thing is like that's training and it's a thing um most law enforcement officers are taught right like you can aim your weapon you can be ready but you you have to like give that verbal warning and there's the rules of engagement essentially and i think that with sheridan's maturity and then and then through training he actually he's actually doing this and did it in the way like anyone could watch that and this is funny this is actually going to come up in the rest of the in the rest of the story but you can watch that and say fully reasonable what he did he stopped he gave the guy warning he came at him said death first he tried he tried he tried he tried that is for sure and the setup.

[18:38] Because we know that's all this is and now sharing things too uh-huh he was trying to kill me i think i understood that pretty clearly but why for what it's worth ambassador my people are already investigating you've been asked by my government to conduct my own investigation as well independently of yours well if asking the victim why they were attacked that's your investigation you might want to rethink your approach well i think the question is here who is the actual victim to each other's way but it is the only way from the government to decide whether or not to insist that you be charged with murder find that minbari witness i mentioned in my report he will back me up i am absolutely sure description minbari the good news is there's nothing in the autopsy that proves he He was attacked without cause. Nothing that shows he was attacked with. There's nothing to corroborate your side of the story either. You are of the third Fane of Chudoma, yes? I am. You carry with you a noble and honorable tradition. Lanier is also of the third Fane of Chudoma. He has brought you great honor. I want to know what Fane means. D'Lynn is from. Oh. What's D'Lynn's Fane? Can you tell me what you know of this incident? Ashan. I answer to other Minbari. Not freaks. Yeah, this is...

[20:00] Lanier needs to lay some smack down on this. He needs to put the wood down. Your words insulted her. Her presence insulted me. What do you do, Lanier? What's your move?

[20:10] Because we are the same. You may ask your questions. What do you do here? If I'm Lanier? You just insulted her, and now you're looking at me saying, because we're the same, you can talk to me. I'll talk to you just because we're the same.

[20:22] What do you say? What's your response, Jeffrey Akin? So there's two answers to that, because there's my response, and there's the fact that we're Chidomo mates. Feign mates or whatever and that that's got a cultural impact of some kind but me that's what we're talking about you know what i am nothing like you you know who i'm like i'm like that person who just walked out the door someone who had the dignity the self-respect to just leave this situation and not bother wasting their breath on you in this moment not honoring the bigotry that you're showing here in this moment with even entertaining this conversation exactly just nope i'm out let this shame stand for itself i will take the honorable step yeah also a person who literally literally sacrificed everything for your future no i'm not saying i'm not no we we are not the same i have one question for you you'll tolerate my questions good i have one you want it in the face or the gut because or the mimbari equivalent of the nut there's that too yes that was this pg-13 show jeff we can we can do that right family friendly totally yeah hey we're not pg we're still pg is that still pg can we say that i don't know man wolfman's got nards that's a pg thing there it is you wanted to face the gut of the nards there we go let's go with that please make sure you edit that word over for it you know we don't want to lose our rating tolerate the answers.

[21:48] I want him to like there it is nice i want him to either like kiss him headbutt him the witness is the exact same thing one of the two the victim was assaulted by you without provocation, That he offered to surrender and that you shot him. He shouted death first. The witness stated that what Lavelle actually said was death first, which in our language roughly translates as, I yield to your authority. No, in the first time we are viewing of this, I did the, no, it's not die, Bart, die. It's D-Bart. D, it's for the Bart. The Bart, the. I know what I heard. I like what Ben says. He's more of a fan of the third fan of Qdoba. Is lying master burrito i love that how did you lanier what are you talking about minbari do not lie captain it would be a stain upon honor and soul then he is in error where the truth is involved and i want to speak with him now there are two investigations going on i feel like sheridan needs to not be a part of either of them just probably true welcome to battle and if he is he needs to be more than just him and dude yeah like all this stuff.

[23:09] So those dolls i promise you i've seen those dolls yeah.

[23:21] Goodnita it's goodnita, you are dealing with hate racism and bigotry at a level Sheridan you're not going to cut through step away step away. The Minbari, listen very carefully. Chan, is there the slightest possibility that you misheard or did not see? Did not see? It happened very quickly. Whose side are you on? We are on the side of the truth. Is there another? Captain, this is... The one friend you have in this room. Guinevere Corey, Captain. I'm your lawyer. What? May I ask what you were discussing here? Good question. The only thing that matters. The truth. Ah, yes. The favorite song of the legally ignorant. Captain, are we finished here? Yes. We'll continue this later. No. And Sheridan knows how this stuff works.

[24:31] Oh, yeah, there's... I've studied Sheridan at great length. This is not in his character, which makes a chance statement dubious. If it's not in his character, why are you coming at him like you are? I don't appreciate being called ignorant in front of others. I'm sorry. Is Naive better? Earthdom has reviewed the facts, and they have decided to proceed with an indictment against you. So you need a lawyer, is what I'm saying. Whether you're found guilty or innocent, if this goes to trial, you'll have to step down as commanding officer of Babylon 5, probably permanently. This is the thing i don't like when you are faced with adversity right so sheridan being given a bum rap right here the way you show up in those situations says a lie and i think there's this, of this is dumb and i shouldn't have to go through this and what do you mean they're trying to convict and what and then there's the way of you know what i didn't do what they said i'm doing let's do this i'm happy to tell my story to you know to who who will listen defend my my position It's almost a he doth protest too much kind of a situation. There.

[25:41] What, you want me to go inside? Is that it? A little weird. A little creepy. Suzanne's asking if Ashan are the names of the aliens in 2001 and 2002. No, those are the Ashen. Why? Look at you! Jeff, I've never been more proud of you than I am in this moment, my friends. So at this point, Sheridan and Kosh have done a number of these lessons, apparently. This is the first one we're seeing. And I really enjoy how it's not even clear. You know what I mean? We did a lot of work on the interpretation of what this meant. I'm curious if it's going to rub any different knowing the rest of Sheridan's story. Or the rest of the Sheridan-Kosh story. Well, I was sent. I'm sorry, I don't carry any kind of hard currency. It's all done with a credit shit. for bookkeeping, that sort of thing. Dylan says that these are apparently Pachmarat, but not sure if that's actually true. That was our impression, I know, the first time we watched this. I wonder if it's supposed to be Pachmarat or if they just used that lump and then covered it up. I've got about a dozen of them. They show what part of the service you're in. Gold for command, red for medical. I think I remember, this is the first time I realized what that bar was. That the bar was a thing. It's not worth very much.

[27:01] Music.

[27:08] Also, if it was Pac-Mura, it would probably reek down there. Yeah. But fascinating. They begin singing. Lights up. I like the light. You can even see the light out here. So Suzanne says something in the chat over here with our council chambers that we correct Guestley the first time that this was foreshadowing Sheridan giving up his command, taking off the bar. So I'm going to read the note that I had from our listen. Oh, okay. So with Kosh and Sheridan and the music, I said that the lesson is that there is beauty in everything, even in the darkness and in the shadows. Is the lesson that even when fighting the shadows, there will be beauty and that beauty will help with the fight. I went on to say that Kosh's lesson was that for Sheridan to be ready for what was coming, he would have to give up everything, his command and everything that he's identified with. And we see that from him giving up his stat bar.

[28:10] Interesting. And I think though, if I remember right, I didn't take the note on it, but I was coming from a place. I think we were both coming from a place that those were Pac-Mura down there, which is where like this is an ugly. We're in the worst part of down below with the grossest of the species that we interact with.

[28:26] And then there was a moment of perfect beauty once I gave up what was important to me. It's a beautiful scene, even if it's not Pac-Mura. i wonder if this is one of those things where um because you remember like later on it's uh veer is talking about hearing the pockmaraw sing and how beautiful they are and all that sort of stuff if people are taking that knowledge and then backwards playing it to this going well these are the pockmaraw because they sing well beautifully like i wonder if it's that we see that and we see that in fandoms and fiction quite a bit yeah when stuff like that happens and people make a make a make a thread connection that may or may not actually be true and we don't really know it usually writers don't answer those questions they let they leave that up to the audience to decide i'm trying to remember at what point we really were on the hey stuff's going south with earth and i don't know that we're there yet stuff's going way south with earth and it's going to have to result in sheridan giving up his command and sheridan leaving earth and and i just remember the further we got into season three the more that just it just became evident it's where the story was going i don't think and i i'm not sure that we were there yet here i wonder if this might have been the starting point there's the you know one day he will take off the thing and maybe this is what turned us on to that idea i think we were thinking about more in terms of fighting the shot at the time was just the shadows was all we were going to fight but it's that whole to win against this great evil i have to give up myself you're beginning to talk just like a volan.

[29:53] There's such interesting camera shots in this episode. I have just received some information on Lavelle.

[30:01] There's a lot in that statement from Ivanova. Belong to it you may want to look at this look at that okay so something about this so those words were like there's an actual phrase that's there oh thank you thank you nia nia nia's always got my back here uh the the words are an actual phrase an actual english phrase translated into latin and the latin letters are substituted for mimbari letters so like if you if you i guess anagram that or whatever it's called double cipher to yeah yeah like to latin and then just translate the latin and what it reads is chester is very spoiled i guess it's my fault i loved him too much it's chester like his cat i don't know i feel like chester might have been the cat i feel like that might be true chester cheetah ben ben says chester was someone's cat i mean didn't we hear something about that like in his autobiography yep that and then we had the cat matheson's cat in crusade oh yeah or matheson's ex-wife's cat that he would yeah yeah ow yeah dude that's like a jim kirk judo chop babylon five style right i have acted shamefully to buy you the time to end this matter in some honorable way only because we are both of chudomo do i take this step to try and convince you to act properly. I don't know what you're talking about. You don't know what I'm talking about.

[31:30] The captain is looking for another moment and you would have been discovered by station security. You're not good at this, Ashan. You can redeem yourself by telling the truth now or shame our entire clan when the truth is discovered. You would believe the humans over one of your own. Yes. Why? Because she does. Delenn, she is nothing. Delenn is honorable and I honor the word of Delenn. What do you honor, Ashan? The truth or the obligations of our clan. Let me just rephrase that into a modern retelling. What's more important to you, the truth or the bullet points of your party? Wow. You don't lie, the Mimbari don't lie, no one around here. Who said the Mimbari don't lie? Londo, who has firsthand experience with this one. Yep. You're saying they do lie? No, it was nothing in Paul. Lando, I have a critical situation hinging on Mimbari honest. Now, if you know something. A certain Mimbari once lied to save a certain... What's he talking about, Jeff? Have you ever seen the episode, The Quality of Mercy? Apparently there is honor in helping another save face. It lied to protect someone's honor. The question becomes who or what is being protected.

[32:46] Captain, we've got a rep from the Minbari Embassy on Earth asking to speak to you. Shall I put it through? Or maybe have your attorney, your lawyer with you, maybe? But we stopped getting this garden for a while. Yeah, it's a good set. Your government wants Ashan to leave for your homeworld on the next shuttle. With the primary witness against me gone by your government's request, there can't be a trial.

[33:11] Which will relieve Earth no end. conspiracies of silence because the larger ideals have to be protected but you can't have larger ideals if the smaller ones oh i like that it's like building a house without a foundation to len it can't stand i love it so much because it's just the take care of the little stuff and the big stuff takes care of itself sort of a thing it's a good call dunderdoll you know what sheridan's under uncovering right now he is isn't he he's uncovering a conspiracy it's his specialty his own real life conspiracy jeff we were wrong we were wrong core to at least the second season foundation this is like at least the third episode where the conspiracy thing has come back we were wrong they just they're just not spelling it out for us we have to like read into it that's the thumbnail by the way it's just going and it's we were wrong yeah that's it after you have gone i will go to the captain and announce my complicity in the death of lavelle what you're insane you had nothing to do with it that is correct individually i did not but i bear the responsibility for all acts committed by my clan in that way i am as responsible as you are if you do that you will dishonor yourself and the third you will chidomo no you have already done that i will retain honor by saving face for you our clan however will never recover from this disgrace then don't do it but listen to me lanier we are not responsible it was the leaders.

[34:39] Of our clan who decided to act without asking the council.

[34:41] This is it, Brent. This is the poem. Do nothing.

[34:47] Shame. Do something. Honor. Lanier is choosing to do something. What you do. Fame or shame, they come from wherever. It's what you do. That's where the honor lies. It's not in your reputation. You have already. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I will retain honor by saving face for you. I also love that idea. I will save face for you, so I will benefit from that. Then don't do it. Listen to me, Lanier. Lavelle paid him to draw Sheridan down that hall, provoked him, and made sure a weapon was there to be used against him. Lavelle is a martyr. He sacrificed himself to remove Sheridan. He was one of us, a clan brother. Saving the honor of your clan is the one thing that could compel you to lie. We knew we couldn't prove it without help. You recorded it all. You betcha. Let's go. Let me quote Lanier. Woo-hoo?

[35:43] What was it you heard in there leave his plan out of it we'll leave lavelle's motives in the attack one more mystery and around here we'll notice one oh sheridan setting up his own conspiracy, also that's a very once again that's a very sinclair way to handle that yeah how to how to How does everyone win? J.S.? John Sheridan. Joe Straczynski. Uh-huh. This is supposed to be me? Yeah. I want it off my station. I want them all off my station. I want the whole store yanked out, boxed up, and shipped out by 0800 tomorrow. Is that clear? I'll get right on it.

[36:25] Sheridan channeling his inner Straczynski or outer Straczynski. Negative Babylon control. i don't see it i love you had the squeegee sound of it encountered unidentified object can you describe it negative babylon control i don't think so not on a bat heading back to the bar i don't think so bat barrel on five all right so watch this all right notice the spin the rotation okay so to quote the rest of jms about this the best part was during filming we shot the bear against a blue screen to be composited into the cgi this is where our efx supervisor standing there on film against a blue screen with this long rod up the teddy bear's ass spinning it around and around and around.

[37:19] I love how it's just a whole thing done at Peter David. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's, it's like this whole thing, like, like Londo, listen, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. If they get rid of you, they got to get rid of me. Here's this, here's this, here's this. Thank you, Londo. That's cool. Also, by the way, I invited your family. Hey, you sent me this thing. Great. I'm going to stick a rod up its ass and twirl it while I space it. Like good twisted joint. Don't send me anything like this. Now I would like to call on everybody listening within the sound of my voice to um uh jeff we need to research what jms's mailing address is right now where he receives fan mail i want everyone to send him like a beanie baby a something let's just flood just flood him and you could just on the note you could just say with love from jeff and brent joe you can email brent at brent it bad nerds.com that's that's all him.

[38:14] Love you joe yeah dude you're my dude man listen i got nothing but love for you but much in the way that londo is bringing veer's family into it we're gonna send you some cute stuff and if i don't see all of those beanie babies with rods shoved up their asses twirling in space, real disappointed your next project is just come on just feeding it to you just just start sending them come on suzanne you see jms at like every convention you go to every other weekend let's let's let's get on it yeah make it happen make it so i brent am disappointed in us uh-oh multiple times we brought up all the dropped threads in babylon 5 and not once did we bring up veer's family visiting oh or not visiting exactly we got his he got his uh decent nephew or whatever they were there was a chunk of time i remember where you and i were like maybe this is the time they show up oh they're gonna they're gonna come what's worse having the family show up or the threat of them impending showing up that's the threat and just have it always kind of dangling you uh got anything on this one you want to talk about you know there's a lot in this episode there's so much of this episode like the episode was going and like i'm just like i'm over here looking i'm just like thinking i'm like that's a.

[39:24] That's an interesting piece where do we go with that uh racism racism bigotry bigotry here's the thing it's never chill you can't hide it if if that's who you are you don't hide it you just don't it's gonna it's gonna shine through on your face i loved that sheridan wanted to try to talk with a sean a shin a sean sean you want to try to talk he's like yeah maybe i can reason with him hey jeff what do we say all the time what's the number one thing you talk to him you gotta talk to him you make whatever and you and i are and every viewer and everybody else in that room is like no bs dude don't do that that's you just no i love the fact he held out hope maybe i can talk to him maybe maybe there is some good in this guy right yeah there wasn't but at least you got to try right at least you got to try you got to find that piece of commonality you know i think that's the thing that's how you can fight bigotry find something you have in common you know and build off of that sheridan should have just made sure he brought his a his lawyer when he did that.

[40:22] Right um speaking of which uh sean says this oh it wasn't really our fault i mean like yeah we're the ones who did it but it was it wasn't really our fault it was our leaders i'm not going to take responsibility for it was them they made us do it they're the ones at fault you know you and i talked not too long ago a couple episodes ago i don't remember if it was this episode or a episode or one of the other ones we do um but the idea that when when people choose to take action that is their choice they are responsible for their action nobody made you do it it's the same sense of like a torturer saying hey listen i'm i'm not the one doing this you're just doing this to yourself we if you just tell me this all stops and goes away if you by you not telling me you're making this happen to you like it's that same sense of oh no it's just not me it's really them they forced our hand we talked about this at length and intersections in real time the first time around.

[41:22] Is the real evil the figurehead or the people who just show up to work every day and perpetuate the evil? Because you can have a bad person in charge. You can have the third fan of Shadomo leadership be awful. And when they tell you to do bad things, you can just say no. And then all of a sudden that evil doesn't happen. You know, one of the things we see, and I always scuffle at this when I hear this, people resign in protest. They resign their job in protest over something. there was there was a very popular fictional story uh that that is not super old uh that involved a bunch of kids at a boarding school and um the the the leadership changed badly the government kind of came in and started taking over and things just got really hard and and uh new measures of discipline that were full-on torture began being implemented and and several of the teachers the good teachers the old guard were like i can't stay here if this is what we're going to be doing i cannot sign my name to this i cannot say i've got to leave and there were people were like no no actually uh you need to stay because you are the guard you are the defense.

[42:28] Against this you're not signing on to this you're the you're the only hope these kids have if you leave these kids.

[42:34] Have no hope when people resign over protest i get it but on some level you're also the only hope to stop it and prevent it now if they come in and they fire you they force you to leave they do whatever that's one thing but to just resign and protest to say that you can't be a part of this you can't be party to this when you're in that spot like i because there's somebody right behind you it's just going to fill that vacuum oh they'll fill that in and and and turn it up to 11 like now if they have to fire you for it there'll still be someone there who's going to fill it yeah but you did what you i mean you fought the fight that's where the honor lies yeah and what you do yeah yeah and i'm not saying that it's dishonorable to resign in protest there's probably a really good reason for that and i i certainly don't want to cast this wide net of like this is always the right answer because i don't have that but it's just the thought that always goes through my mind yeah um when we do that uh we talked briefly about veer knowing the real londo and calling out londo for being something he's not but and then what happens with londo londo for a moment shows us who he really is we see that londo that we saw i'm born to the purple we see the londo who's remembering how to dance and that his shoes are too tight right like like this is the londo we see even if he gets him a little like and i invited your family like a little twitch like it's great but londo has this great line.

[44:00] And now I'll end on this one. Londo has a great, great line. I don't know if we talked about it in the first time or not. Londo looks at Veer and he says, Veer, effectively, he's like, I'm sorry. Yeah, I've done a lot of, a lot of stuff, right? You cannot change the past, but the present, yes, you can change. Guys, listen, this is a spot where we all live. You can't change the past. Whatever you've done before in the past, you can't change it. It's there. What you can change. I tell my kids this all the time. Look, that's done. You can't change it. What can you control? What you choose to do from here on out. That is the thing you control. That is the thing that can change. Yes, that you can't change the past. That'll be what it is. But you can change the present. And there's no better time. I've heard this a long time ago, Jeff.

[44:41] There's the right time to do the right thing is right now. It's right now. Start now. Start now. Do the right thing. Might not be able to change the past, but you don't have to keep living in that vein. You can stop or you can be better. Change it right now. Change it in the present. Yes, you can. Just today, I was working as a manager that's on my team who is taking one of their people through up into a, they're almost a dismissal point, like through the disciplinary process and writing the last little thing or whatever. And they just really want to go through and interrogate all of the things the person did, right? Oh, you did this and you did this and you did this. I had to ask them, what are you going to get out of them? Are they going to say, yeah, I did that. Oh, master, please put down the whip. Please don't hit me anymore. What are you going to get from going through that? Draw the line in the sand and say, from this moment forward, these are my expectations and.

[45:38] Failure to meet these expectations will result in this and meeting the expectations will result in this. There's no, it happened. It happened. Tell me what I got to do now to move forward and be healthy in this whole thing. And just as a society, we're so stuck on going to the, you know, beating up all of the things that happened before. And I mean, I'm not saying it just goes away and it's not whatever, but that's not the focus, right? And I think about it too, a conversation you and I have a lot. Is it justice or is it vengeance? Vengeance is focused on the past. Justice is focused on the future. And in this case, in a really small, tiny way, Londo chose justice. Yeah. I like that a lot. Jeff, did you have any other thoughts? Captured it very well. I'm curious what kind of justice you can do, Brent, in this next segment.

[46:28] As we create the 100% correct, the immutable, objective ranking of all the episodes of our second viewing of season two of Babylon 5. The honor, my friend, falls upon you this week to rank this thing. I am, you know, we usually do the top five on this. I'm going to hit this a little closer to the middle though. And I'm going to start at number 10, which is a distant star in ninth we have points of departure eight acts of sacrifice seven hunter prey and the episode that has hinged a number of our most recent episodes at number six gropos rent where lies there all the honor lies you know jeff i think back to what we originally said and i i do not remember saying this i'll just take your word that we said that this was not great and that um Um, it, it was just all these different B plots sort of loosely connected, but I enjoyed watching it this time. And it too. And I didn't get that impression at all. This felt complete. No, it felt fine. Yeah. It felt things.

[47:35] I don't know if we're just watching this in light of the entirety of the show, of knowing where we go and what happens. I think I know what it is. You called it out at one point. The show completely feels different. It was shot differently. It was framed differently. It just feels. And so the first time around, it was just so psychologically off-putting that it didn't feel right. Yeah. I mean, like, okay, so there's the Kosh thing, right? There was no resolution to that whatsoever.

[48:04] It just happened it was just there right now we know where this leads we know what's happening we also know what doesn't happen and so it doesn't it just feels like a step along the way it doesn't feel incomplete right we know the store never comes back it's just this little haha thing that we've got going on um really going after sheridan and the racism with the mimbari and when what's going on like this is a step along the way this is a development we see the pieces of action even how this furthers the Lynn and her pursuit and, and Sheridan's pursuit of her, uh, towards each other. Um, we see Lanier just being awesome. And like this, this is Lanier at his best, not Ranger Lanier, not running away Lanier. This is, this really is great, great Lanier. So there's so much of this episode, I think to like, is it a great episode? Probably not, but i did enjoy it jeff you're in the right zone now you mentioned that gropos is the one that hinges this whole episode really i have to come at this with a which episode would i rather watch again first i think i would rather watch gropos first to be honest with you yeah i just it's a it's a fun episode except for like the last 30 seconds of the episode it's a fun episode i i think i would rather watch it honestly i i love the whole stuff with dodger and and garibaldi i I love the stuff with big and.

[49:28] I don't even remember the name of the guy the flyboy guy who's on our station kefir that guy um we saw him today we just saw him was i was wondering i was like it's not kefir i'm not sure it doesn't really matter it's not um then i look at hunter prey and i go hunter prey, i i enjoyed hunter prey i liked hunter prey do i want to watch this episode again or that one and this is where i'm going to stop because this episode feels so connected to the overall story of Babylon five, whereas hunter prey just feels like a one-off type episode. So I'm going to want to watch this one first, Jeff, this is going to be our new number seven. And I think you could make an argument that it should be number six. I don't know that it's going to land there. Certainly by the end of the season, things, I think it's just going to keep getting pressed down as we get more and more episodes into this. But for right now, number seven. Here's what's fun. Number six, Gropos, number seven, they're all the underlies in our completely correct First time ranking of the second season, number 16, Gropos, number 17, They're All the Honor Lies. All right. All right. Listen, a couple episodes have made some major changes, but for the most part, I think it just proves that our assessment of this show the first time around, for the most part, was not bad. I'd say 100% correct is what I would say.

[50:48] You can't argue that. But that's going to do it for They're All the Honor Lies. Next week, a little show, a little episode called And Now for a Word. That's the next episode? It is. Are you serious? Yeah. I know this one. Yes. This was a pretty milestone moment for this show in the viewing of this. I knew it was coming soon. I knew it was coming soon. Jeff, this might be the single episode that I have personally received the most flack for. This or one of them? More than Avalon, more than, I don't, I don't remember what other shows I received a bunch of flack for, but this episode I've received and it's become a thing. Print this phrase on a t-shirt. This is the, I even referenced it earlier today. I even realized that it's a clip show without being a clip show. That's this episode. And I'm going to prove to you guys that I was a hundred percent right. And why this episode is awesome. And if you think I didn't like this episode because I said it was a clip show without being a clip show you were wrong and you weren't paying attention to what i said the first time around at least that's how i remember that's how you remember it yeah.

[51:54] What did you predict though? We're going to talk about what you remembered next week. What did you predict it was going to be about? You know what? Um, I referenced Jeff, you wouldn't have understood this back then, but you definitely understand this. Now I said, you know, star Trek, star Trek, nope, not star Trek. Stargate. Stargate is a show that takes itself fairly seriously, but sometimes not at all. It does not take itself too seriously with a special specific episodes, like their hundredth episode, which is called wormhole. So good. So good. Such a great episode, right?

[52:24] Window of opportunity is another really really good one you know um and i said this is going to be one of those episodes it's not going to take itself very seriously it's just going to be a fun episode it's going to be a fun deal that's what i thought what about you what'd you predict that was going to be a reality show a mockumentary style episode send a camera crew out and document life on babylon five you i call shenanigans jeff shenanigans you peaked you saw it early it's called it now like what else what else gonna be it's that or it's just a run of commercials like that's all it is which also would have been great oh i'm excited to watch this one this is a good run of episodes we're in let's do like kind of light heartity and getting us ready for like because it's gonna turn and not be light heartity yeah i don't know that that's a word sure it is i just said it of course it has to be now it's gotta be a word it's now add it to the dictionary Right? Yeah, we're going to. Lighthearted-y. We're going to step out of that world here real soon and get into some pretty heavy stuff. So we're going to enjoy. Enjoy this one quite a bit. I hope you will as well when you join us right here next week. Thank you for joining us today as we watch this. If you haven't already, please like, comment, subscribe, and do all those great things. It would be incredible if you could share this show. Just tell somebody. Word of mouth, right? It's great. Let's grow this incredible community that we already have. So until next time, as we sign off, Brent, what's up?

[53:53] Hey, so something you may not know about me, you're familiar with the idea of a bucket list, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I have three items on my bucket list. Okay. Just three. That's all I got. All right. I'll share them with you. One is I want to be in a movie. All right. I'm not talking like an extra walk around the background. Like I want to, I don't have to have the lead, but I want a significant part of a movie where I'm going to be a part of the process. Yeah. Which is because you were in a, what? Seabiscuit. Right. Or, uh, I was, I was an extra in Seabiscuit. I saw, I saw that side of it. but like i want to be like like in the thing i want to have a trailer i want to i want to go through that whole i don't have to do a bunch of them either i like just just give me one like let me have fun with it right but i want to be in a movie two um i want to be uh a voice i want to do voiceover like cartoon voice animated voice you know video games something like that i think that'd be i want to go in the studio i want to act it i want to i want to have yeah but you know the third thing i want i want my own action figure oh that would be able to go i want to be able to go on late night TV and just pull up and like, here's my toy of myself. Don't you think it'd be really cool to have an action figure of yourself? Dude, it would be so cool. Especially if it had all of the attributes that it was supposed to have. Right. Fully anatomically correct. Apparently. But Brent, I think you can already check that one off your bucket list. You have an action figure. No, why do what? Yeah. You saw it the last time we did this episode. Don't you remember Barrett Allen? I don't.

[55:20] Music.