Feb. 6, 2023

There All The Honor Lies

We're not some deep space franchise, this station is about something!

Two veteran Star Trek podcasters watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Brent Allen and Jeff Akin search for Star Trek like messages in this series, deciding if they should have watched it sooner.

They've opened a store on Babylon 5 for the sole purpose of throwing shade at Star Trek Deep Space 9! Jeff and Brent debate the finer points of Gregorian chant as Sheridan discover beauty - with the help of Kosh.

This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more: https://www.patreon.com/babylon5first

Producers: Jeffrey H. Adam Pasztory Addryc Andrew Nathanael Myer

All rights belong to the Prime Time Entertainment Network, WBTV, and TNT. No copyright infringement intended.

Copyright Disclaimer, Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for 'fair use' for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.

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Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name's Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five four, the first time.

Brent: Jeff. Jeff, Buddy Brent. Listen, I understand how you feel about this episode. I do too. But I'm gonna need you to go back and give us a little more umph. I need, I need the energy, dude, because I can't carry this one by myself, Buddy.

Like we've, we, we, I You need go, man. That's not your normal opening. Go back and do it. I can give that one to you.

Jeff: All right. People listening aren't seeing this. I'm literally like, I'm still drinking my coffee. Um, not because it's early in the morning, but, Well, we'll get to that as we walk through the episode.

So here we go. I can do it. I'm a, I'm a, I'm a professional. I believe in

Brent: you. You got this one.

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon. Five. For the first time. Wow.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching One . Seriously? No. And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the first time.

Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching Babylon five for the first time where we're searching for Star Trek, like messages. We're applying that lens that we have gained as Star Trek podcasters, and we're applying that to Babylon five and trying to decide how much we like this series.

Jeff: I'm glad you said series and not season. Yeah, because this is not a Star Trek podcast, Brent. We are though. We are Star Trek podcasters. So we're going to bring those references in. We play to help us out with that. We play the rule of three, and what that means is there are three references per person that can be made per episode.

That's it.

Brent: Three. One of those takes. No substitutions. Exchanges are refund.

Jeff: That is all. And that begins now, Brent, I've got some reviews to share. All

Brent: right. And first we've got that, something to fill up this episode.

Jeff: first. I've got one from Apple podcast. And Brent, this is a one star review. Oh, we're read Mal though, Jeff.

Exactly. We read 'em all and I don't have a drop for this one, but this one causes me a little bit of cognitive dissonance. You'll understand. So one star. Okay. I'm a big B. Oh, and this is from VLAN one. Okay. Yeah. I'm a big B five fan. And love hearing the predictions and discovery. That's the one star review.

Brent: Do the Volo and have a different rating system where five is really bad and one is like the best Maybe. Maybe. That's

Jeff: weird. Yeah. But you know what? We read 'em

Brent: all. Hey, Volin, if you happen, if that's, if that's your actual rating and that's the way you want to leave that, cool. No, Not cool, but okay. If you actually meant for that to be better than one star, I think you can go back and amend it and change it.

And I would ask you to do that because it affects other things. But if that's legit the way you want to put your rating in there, more power to you, brother. It's, uh, but thank you. Thank you for taking the time to come in. I'm going to assume the best about VLAN here, Jeff. I'm just gonna assume the best and maybe, uh, he or she clicked the wrong star.

Yeah. And, uh, say thank you. Thank you for joining in. Thank you for, uh, coming in with the predictions. Uh, we know that I am the prediction king on, uh, uh, Babylon five for the first time. Jeff is the court jester over there. And, uh, , uh, thank you. I appreci.

Jeff: But to balance that, Brent, we do have a five star review.

Oh yes. Also on Apple Podcast. This one from the Real Vion Babylon five is my favorite sci-fi show of all time Over the years, I've seen it many times experiencing the joy of watching a story well told and grinning at all the clues and foreshadowing that jms laid along the way. But there is another way to experience Babylon five, watching it for the first time, not knowing what would happen, being surprised at the twists and turns, and ultimately being satisfied by a show that balanced character and plot in a way that no other show has done.

Brent and Jeff are watching Babylon five for the first time. And as a veteran fan going on this journey with them brings back all the fun memories. From my first time watching the show, I'm looking forward to seeing what they think about the show and how that changes as the seasons go by. If you're a longtime fan or a brand new fan looking for something to share the experience with, check out Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: Thank you. Whoever your name is,

Jeff: uh, . Thank you. Real. The real Von or Vaon? Real

Brent: Vaon. Thank you. Real Vaon. That is awesome. And that's exactly what we want to have happen here. Did you guys watch this for the first time, Jeff? I really have a feeling that people are looking back on season two, understanding how all of this applies in the grander scheme of things.

Yeah. Like this is where it's all so good and you and I don't understand it, and we're like, Yeah. Okay.

Jeff: When I was a kid, my dad, he was a landscaper. That was his job. He was excellent at it. Mm-hmm. . And I remember he planted, um, he, he laid a new lawn, like soughted out a new lawn and planted a whole bunch of flowers and it just looked like dirt.

And he got done. He looked at it and I was with him cuz as a kid my job was to like, you know, carry the tarp with all the yard debris that he created, , and throw it in the back of the truck. But he looked at it and he is like, Yeah, this is good. And I'm like, It's dirt, dad. Like, this looks dumb. Mm-hmm. . He's like, Well come back next season and look at it and I'll change your mind.

And it did. It was gorgeous. Like, he had this really cool flower pattern and colors and stuff that we put together. It was awesome. But at the time it was just a big old thing of dirt. Brent, I think we're looking at a big old thing of dirt.

Brent: Gotta give. I mean, you know, here's the thing is even in the middle of these episodes that overall are like, eh, There's some fun parts to 'em. Oh, totally. Yeah. You know, or there's some good like little nuggets, but you're like, I watched 45 minutes for what? Effectively I needed three minutes of screen time to do.

Mm-hmm. .

Jeff: Well, I've got one more bit of good news. Okay. Through our web website, Babylon five first.com, to number five, the word first.com. We got a message from Ralph in Germany. What's up

Brent: Ralph? In Germany, we've got a couple

Jeff: messages from people in Germany, so gut and talk. Yeah. Super happy. It is, yeah. Right?

Or or gut. And Morgan, depending on, on where, where you're, I was in Switzerland a couple months ago and Switzerland, a lot of it is German. And I got really good at saying, Oh, Don Keone and Don Keone. That's, that's, that's my German . But Ralph sent a pretty long email and I'm gonna share a little piece of it here that really, uh, really was great.

I thought. Okay. He says, I found your podcast a week ago. And during that week I managed to catch up to the latest part. So, um, God bless you, Ralph . That's a lot of Jeff and Brent you listen to. So here's my summary, how incredibly awesome your work is. I'm so glad that I found your podcast, what you're talking about, and especially the way how you do it.

It's nice to listen to your analysis of the plots. No, no, wait, let me put it. In other words, two guys looking deeply through the glasses of their life experience mixed with their sci-fi vita. I don't know that word at the different characters and how they interact with each other in Babylon. Five is from my point of view, the sense and purpose of premium audio content.

Also, you manage to contextualize so many details with current political and human topics and events. And last but not least, the. You gave me the opportunity. I thought this was really cool. You gave me the opportunity to improve my English, and of course I gave you a five star review on Spotify. Oh, yes.

Thanks Ralph. Dunk. Don.

Brent: Thank you Ralph. Absolutely dunk. Donka. Shane. No Duncan soon. Dun. I don't know. I know. That's what I said in Switzer. Wayne Newton. Wait, Newton said dunk. Shane. . I don't, I don't actually know. I don't know how the way Ray. Thank you Ralph. You're awesome. Great for you. Uh, good on you for allow, allowing Jeff and I to help you with your English.

Yeah, and I hope that my, uh, my, my Kentucky accent doesn't come through that often. , although there are some words that it does come through for sure. Um, but that's, that's super, super cool. I like it. I like this is what premium audio content is about. Feels good. That was great. Yeah. I like it. I like it.

Jeff: Oh my God. . What is the deal with that? Like why do they keep

Brent: I don't, I don't know if this is gonna make it into the audio, Jeff, or if you're gonna cut it out, but if you're out there listening, what I just played, the Babylon five commercial bumper that they left in the HBO Max

Jeff: literally, and a high point of the episode,

Brent: Anyway, you know Jeff, along with our game rule of three, there is another game that we like to play at the end of each episode where we try to guess what that. We try to guess what next week episode is gonna be based on title alone, not having seen thumbnails, not reading descriptions. Certainly not watching it first.

This is the time where it's uh, it's time to pay up. It's time to see if we got it right. It's time to see if we got it wrong. It's time to see where we are. So Jeff, do you remember what you said this episode was gonna be about last week. How close were you

Jeff: to the truth? I do remember, I wanna point out we're a couple minutes into the audio portion of this podcast and we are completely off the rails already.

Like this is . Whew. So I was, What are you drinking over there, ? I was drinking coffee. There's just some. Whew. So I remember, uh, that I thought that this was gonna be a keer oriented episode heading out to Chase after something that happened out on the rim, and he was gonna leave it all on the line. And I'm gonna give myself 0.01 points because Keer was actually in this episode, which in the second season is kind of a rarity given that he's, you know, in the opening

Brent: credits.

So he's actually in the, in the show more in the second season than he was in the first, though.

Jeff: That's true. That is a, that is an objectively true statement. All right, well,

Brent: Jeff, do you remember what I said this episode was gonna be about last

Jeff: week? I actually do ,

Brent: What did I say?

Jeff: Cuz I don't remember. I have the transcript.

I have the transcript here. Little, little note for everyone. If you go to our website, babylon five first.com, the number five in the word first dot. I post a pretty cruddy transcript on there that our little, uh, AI thing does and pulls it out. It doesn't really know all the ble on five names, but it's something.

So you thought that, Let's see

Brent: here. I'll, I'll give you a second to find it.

Jeff: You should just keep hitting that. That'd be . That'd be great. That's might be new. Favorite thing, . I had it all set up and then I moved it to my other monitor and it screwed everything up. Here we go. Okay. There's gonna be an A, b, and C plot featuring dalen, Garabaldi and Lawn. And we've been predicting this for a while.

You've been predicting that it's gonna happen soon, right? This is the beginning of the redemption of lawn, but you're gonna have, um, kind of the three separate stories where. Lawn's dealing with his honor stuff, Len, with, you know, losing her spot on the Great council and Garabaldi will be the comic relief of the episode.

Brent: So, sir, I, I think I nailed a third of it. Cause that's lawn Now I don't know if this is the beginning of his redemption, but it's definitely lawn dealing with his stuff. Mm-hmm. at least being pretty cool in this episode. Like he, he's come up quite a bit, but he's being in his own lawn way. Pretty cool.

Dalen was definitely in there, although it wasn't her dealing with anything really having to do with herself. A little bit. A little bit actually, I guess. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. So let's get half credit for that. So let's hear, what's half of a third? A sixth? Sure. And a sixth plus a third is four. Ninths. Okay.

That's right. I got four Ninths correct on this. And Garabaldi did not have a plot at

Jeff: all. No. He did not. Well, for those of you that have, um, no idea if we're right or wrong or how we're scoring ourselves in any way, if you haven't watched this in 30 years or if you're just listening to the podcast and not watching the show at all, Brent, can you walk us through what there all the honor lies was about?

Brent: Well, it's a command briefing morning, which means that it's time for Sheridan to shove off more stuff that he doesn't really want to deal with to Vava, cuz that's what he does now and it's kind of become his mo this time. It's the Babylon five Emporium folks. It's your one stop shop for all your Babylon five men.

It's your one stop shop for all your Babylon five memorabilia. Merchandising, merchandising, merchandising. It's where the real money from the show is made. Babylon. Five, the T. Babylon. Five. The coloring book,

Jeff: Babylon. Five. The Lunchbox

Brent: Babylon. Five. The breakfast cereal Babylon. Five. The Flame Thrower. The kids love that one.

And last but not least, Babylon. Five. The tall featuring B Alon five. John Sheridan. Unfortunately for Bad Bear Lawn, he's gonna get spaced at the end of this episode. All right. Enough of that, the action, and I use that word loosely, gets started when Sheridan is walking down a dark, deserted hallway all by himself, because you know that the captain of a really important, super large place is always by himself in dark, deserted hallways when he suddenly gets bumped into by a shady looking dude who totally didn't just pickpocket him.

Oh wait, yeah, he did. This guy took Sheridan's link right off of his hand. Sheridan chases the man down, but he bumps into Lavell a mbar from a very prominent family. Lavell starts to rough up Sheridan quite a bit, and Sheridan manages to find a P PPG that just happens to be sitting on the floor right next to where Sheridan is thrown to by Lael.

Sheridan turns over with the PPG and his hand tells to stop advancing on him, but Lavell doesn't Listen. He continues and Sheridan shoots him dead. Woo. Glad that's over. Oh, hey, wait. You, you Ash Sean, the other Mumbar who just happens to be standing here and seeing what happened. This is not what it looks like, honest, as you can imagine, the Mumbar government is pretty up in arms over this, and they want the star killer charged, or at least the leaders of the third faint of Tomoto do, which also happens to be a Sean's clan, which also happens to be Lanier's clan, so they can at least talk to each other.

There's a lot of filler throughout the rest of the episode about them trying to find out who and what and why. But ultimately it's just a revenge plot because they're still mad at Sheridan over what happened during the war. That's it. That's all Few other tidbits. Uh, Sean is throwing some serious shade at Dalin saying she's not a real mbar anymore and he refuses to even talk to her saying her mere presence is an insult to him.

KO is super eager to continue his lessons with Sheridan and takes Sheridan to what I can only describe as a VLAN hot box where there's this really rad Gregorian chant going on. And turns out Kosh really was just wanting to hear the music the whole time, and Lando does right by Veer not letting them replace Veer with some other one.

Now that Longo's got a little bit more status. Jeff, that's all I got on the recap cuz that's all it was. So. What you think of this episode? There are all the lies honor. All the honor lies. There it is. It sure does. I, for those wondering like, Oh, he's messing it up on purpose. No, I'm not. I really, This is just an awkwardly phrased title that I, Go ahead, Jeff

Jeff: Well, so I, I kind of, I liked parts at this one. Um, like there were some things in it. I real, actually, there were some things I really liked, but this episode, Brent, was a mess. It was a mess. It was all over the place. And the Sheridan setup whole line was, it was okay, but the way they cut it together felt choppy and not smooth.

Sheridan's, like, I didn't buy his a, it was like he'd never been accused of doing something wrong before. You're a captain in earth force. Like this is a thing you, you should know, but the caution Sheridan stuff. Oh man.

Brent: I loved that was, that was the best part of the whole episode. Yeah. Frankly. Totally. And it was frank.

It was the only part I really cared about.

Jeff: Everything else was just, Well, and I talk about this later on too, but this was just like reminding us of stuff that happened early in the

Brent: season. You remember what I said in my, in my recap, that this was gonna be like a bunch of B plots all strung together.

That actually, I think is what this episode felt like. It was just there. There is no a plot. It's just, here's this little thing that doesn't have enough to stand on its own. And here's this little thing that doesn't have enough to stand on its own. Here's this little thing that doesn't have enough to stand on its own.

Mm-hmm. .

Jeff: And let's throw it all in one episode and then it's gonna be okay. Yeah.

Brent: But it's gonna set up all this other stuff in the future. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

Jeff: Right. And I remember this, the Veer and Lando stuff I thought had so much potential to be cool, but I think they like left out a whole scene or something.

Like, there were just things that didn't make sense. And seriously, what was the point of the store? Oh, I,

Brent: so I, Here's what I totally think. I felt the same way about the lawn and beer stuff. I felt like there was a lot more to that story that might have gotten cut out. I 100% believe and people are out there commenting right now.

Mm-hmm. , this is what it was all about. This, I don't know, I haven't read any books, but I 100% believe this is the studio coming to jms. Actually not even coming to jms. Cause they don't have to, They own the rights. Right. The studio owns the show, not jms. Mm-hmm. . And they're like, Hey, we've made up a bunch of toys because it's where the real money from the show is made.

And jms, I think, blew a gasket. He's like, This is not what I did with this show. And they told him, We want you to put the merchandise in the show. I think they, this was a studio in inference. They made him write a way to have this in here and this whole opening sequence with Sheridan and, and Ava. Feels like it is completely lifted out of the conversation that Jmf JMS would've had with the studio exec.

Wow. Okay. Right down to the complete shot across the

Jeff: nose. This,

Brent: I mean, we're not some, some deep space franchise. This station is about something. Yeah. I mean, that is a shot. I mean, dude, that was, that was not across the nose. That was up the nose.

Jeff: Yeah. That wasn't, that wasn't the shadows and lawn in, um, in Chrysalis, you know, where they took out the mil that was in coming of shadows where they took out, like that's, that is war declaration right there.


Brent: absolutely. That is, I mean, they called em out by name, effectively. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And we all know, I mean, Star Trek, the toys and everything like that, like, that's a big part of it. And I think, I think this is the studio saying, you have to put this in somehow, and JMS put it in, but in order to make it fit, Maybe that's where we lost some of the lawn and ve stuff.

Jeff: Yep. It was just kinda like, Hey, we're gonna put pieces of this in, these half cocked be plots, and Oh, I got room to slip this in here.

Brent: And, and everything from spacing the bear at the end to avan Ava's like, uh, disdain to lawn, like with the really weird cut shots that they kept putting in of him holding the, the, the doll up.

Mm-hmm. , like all of that was just, I, I, I think that's jms sticking a middle finger up to the studio for turning his beloved show into, into a toy merchandising thing. Okay.

Jeff: I can, I can, That's my guess. I can buy that . Well, I will tell you my last thought here before I hand it over to you for your reactions, but one of my favorite parts of the whole episode on the, and this didn't happen until my second watch through.

But one of my favorite parts was the attorney lady that came in for, uh, for Sheridan. What was your, what were your first reactions to this?

Brent: To her? Um, just Or the whole,

Jeff: the whole episode. Really.

Brent: Oh, the whole episode. I, I mean, much the same thing as yours. Like it's, there were parts, individual parts of it I liked, but overall I was, I was very underwhelmed, very, very underwhelmed.

I don't think this, this isn't a bad episode, it's just not a good episode. Is that like, can it live in the middle somewhere like that? Like, I generally really like these who done it, Procedural courtroom. Although there wasn't really a courtroom here, but let you know, let, like, let's go find out what happened.

I gen genuine, I generally like those kind of stories. This one was like, eh, I was more, I was more interested in what was going on with the Sean throwing shade at Dalen. Mm-hmm. than I was in, what, what else was going on? I was more interested in the whole caution, the music and all of that, certainly than I was in, Are they gonna get shared and out of this and, and the lawyer coming in?

I mean, I don't you you said she's one of your favorite parts. I, I, I have no feelings on her whatsoever.

Jeff: What? Tell me about it. I, I despised her on my first walkthrough, cuz I just thought to myself, look, another total like archetype coming from Earth Force, you know? Mm-hmm. , look how, but then I saw who played her actor is, uh, Caitlin Brown.

Do you know who else Caitlin Brown has played on? Babylon. No, the Orig NATA was, she was season one Netta, and as soon as I knew that and I just pictured everything that she did coming from Netta, I'm like, God, I love you. I miss you. You are, The fact that she is not Netta to me encompasses and encapsulates everything that's wrong with the second season of Babylon five.

Like she was just that raw awesomeness that every time she was on screen in the first season we're just like,

Brent: Yes, do. So she was the one that beat down Death Walker? Yes. That was her. Yep. So she comes back for a, It's too bad she couldn't handle the makeup and I know Cause I mean, just so it

Jeff: was, She was so good and once I knew that that's who she was, I just pictured her as Aita and it was so much fun to watch her be the attorney and I'm just like, mm-hmm.

That to me really wraps up season two of Blon five for me. Like. I don't know. I

Brent: don't know. Yeah, I did, I did happen to, I did happen to look that up. I wanted to know why, why she left, why they recast the character. Was it the makeup? It was the makeup, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, I was, that was one of those, like, there might be a spoiler that might not be, but I just, like, I, curiosity just got the best of me and I really wanted to know, like why, why would they recast Netta?

Because she was the perfect character. Yeah. Hey, by the way, you know that spinoff that we keep talking about with the assistance? Yeah. The side kit. Yeah. I don't need it anymore without the original Netta. Totally. It's worthless. Like Vera is fine, but Netta was the, the, the one to

Jeff: really sell that. Like, I mean, I would, I'm here for a VE and Lanier and Garabaldi episode, like them going off and doing a thing.

But without nata you can't carry a whole series. Right?

Brent: Yeah. Kind of like without Jaar, you can't carry a whole, Where's he been the last bunch of

Jeff: episodes? You know? So let's, let's talk about the veer and Lando stuff there, because I think that's part of what was missing in that story too. Isono. Ves great.

I really like Veer, and this added some depth to him, but Lawn without Jaar just isn't, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. , it's just not, they are one character together and ve wasn't enough to, to, for him to play off of, to really shine.

Brent: Right. Well, and I mean, Lando is just kind of walking around like he's the big hot dog and kind of knows that he's not, but he kind of is.

And you know, his, his Crest hair looks bigger. It looks blacker. Yeah. I don't know if you've noticed that. It looks like he

Jeff: died it and he is got the black, uh, military stuff going.

Brent: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, you know, and he just, he kind of walks around almost like he, like he's not himself and I don't think Lando is himself right now.

No, not at all. And him doing what he did for VE as a real solid. Shows that they're still good in lawn, they're still good in you. I, I believe it. I can sense it, you know, Um, but yeah, you're right. Without jaar, without that playing off of it, I know those two aren't speaking right now. Mm-hmm. , uh, and rightly so.

But without it, Lando, I, as much as I hate to say it, Lando is just not right now.

Jeff: And I think it's part of what the point we were supposed to get. You know, I think that's that story that, that will lead to redemption at some point for him is just like, Yeah, this isn't who he is. And ve, I mean, we talked to a couple episodes ago about how ve is just as complicit in this as lawn is.

I mean, he's enabling all this stuff to happen, but he. He's having a hard time with it too. And I, I really appreciated how he tried to call Lawn out in this episode for it. Mm-hmm. , But he was drunk, you know, playing drunk at the same time. Yeah. I thought like that whole episode and the episode, that moment when he was drunk, you know, he'd only had four or only had two drinks.

Right. It was great. But when he is just like, Hey, you know, my, my family thinks I'm a joke Working for you is, is, it was a joke. And I'm sorry. Like, I'm sorry. That whole awkward, weird. I'm sorry. Thing was awesome. Like, Yeah.

Brent: I felt that What's, what's his name? Stephen Fur. First. First.

Jeff: I think. First. I think first.

Or with a you. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Animal House. That's where he's a really

Brent: good actor. Yeah. In, in this role, what did you, what did you make of Lawn's? Family situation or, That was

Jeff: intriguing. Yeah. Beer's family situation. Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: Cause. like they sent him here to get rid of him cuz they didn't want him around.

I mean, this man Jeff, did you ever watch The Lion King? Oh yeah. Say yes. Did you ever watch The Lion King One and a half? Yes. Actually called the Lion King three. Mm-hmm. . Where we find out that timone basically is like the please get out of our, our community before you wreck anything else. Or, or, Oh, it's a bug's life.

Same. Wasn't that the same thing with that kid? The same, Same idea. Just please get out. We don't want you around. Please go. That is a, We'll laugh at you the whole way and you know, it's that same kind of deal with Yeah.

Jeff: And I gotta think like, it was great how he said it, right? And yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, what was it?

I'm pushed away and covered in shame over here. And then over here I'm taken over by secrets and it's either a flood or a fire and there's no way mm-hmm. for me to get out. He's just trapped and I what I wanna think. Isn't that he's a disappointment in the sense of like, he's a piece of garbage. You know, like, Oh, you suck at everything in your right.

Garbage. I think that he was anti-culture. He understood like the sent way of life and their culture was flawed and wanted to help evolve it and move it in a direction. And they're like, Nope, you go somewhere else that is not

Brent: wanted here. And that, and that rings absolutely true because if you remember that one episode, it Yeah,

Jeff: I don't think it was signs his cousin with something that Winnie Cooper Sentar.

Yeah. Yeah,

Brent: yeah, yeah. And he like helped them get married when they weren't, when they were supposed to be marrying other people who they didn't want to be married to. Yeah. Uh, yeah, that, that whole thing rings a hundred percent true.

Jeff: I found the ending in that though, to be very confus. The whole, you know, when, when Lawn's telling him to enjoy his first hangover mm-hmm.

which, Oh God. But it was great at the end where he ba the gist was right. He's, If they're gonna get rid of you, I'm gonna go with you. Cuz you're awesome and you're great. Yeah. But there was just that whole thing of like, how, how quickly can you pack cuz your replacements here and like, was he trying to mess with, I couldn't tell what was going

Brent: on.

Yeah. That one felt like, almost like they had like written a couple of different drafts of how they wanted that to go and they put the wrong one in the

Jeff: script. Yeah. How come I got the purple sheets today? I thought we were running the blues. It's just Right. Yeah.

Brent: That's actually what that Cause I had that same thought.

I was like, that that wasn't a joke. That wasn't, you know what I thought it was for a little bit was his replacement is here and so he needed to pack because, uh, Veer was getting a promotion. Okay. And the assistant, there was gonna be a new assistant, but Veer was getting a promotion and so he'd get to go to like better quarters.

Like that's, that's where I thought that was going. And then it didn't,

Jeff: I thought it was gonna go, Cause at first I was just like, What the heck? I don't understand. He's like, Well no, you gotta pack my stuff first. Right. Okay. So I thought they were gonna leave. I thought Lawndale was headed back to Cent Prime and it was gonna sit in the court and like try and get away from, or you know, maybe get away from stuff or change of scenery.

But then

Brent: Lawn can't leave Mabel on five though, Jeff. Well I

Jeff: thought they were gonna do the two cuz they built that whole set. The whole throne room for Cent Prime. Like they could use that.

Brent: It depends on what they had to put on top of it or where, where it like, cuz that's, that set seems like it was an existing set that they redressed.

Mm. Okay. And they're not gonna wanna have to redress that set all the time. Like that would make, Yeah, somebody quarters that they redressed or something

Jeff: like that. But that whole scene was just a really weird. Weird wrap up to that, but I will say, I hope we actually get to see, like, I hope we get the episode where his family shows up for a whole month.

Yeah. Like, that'd be fun.

Brent: And then they made him want to drink. Okay. So here's the note that I had to wrap up this whole, this whole section for me. Lando is definitely on a bad track and he still has not come to his redemption moment yet. Nope. But it is good to see that lawn is still at least lawn. He does still have thoughts and feelings.

He does really well by, by, uh, Veer. I was about to say linear. That's not right. He does well by, by VE and then he turns around and sticks it to him a little bit like, Oh, I'm, I got it for, you know, uh, they're gonna be here for a whole month and like, you know, like that's, that's lawn do, that's the Lando we know and love minus Jaar.

Jeff: Yeah. It's good to see him again. Like that was kind of cool. Yeah. So if it's cool, like I said, I have super, I have super organized notes and so I've got the Sheridan stuff take, and then I've got the Sheridan Co. I'd like to like wrap on the Sheridan KO stuff so we can end out a high note. Yeah,

Brent: let's, Well, I mean the Mumbar, this, the whole Sheridan Mumbar stuff was plot.

I don't, it was, it didn't do anything. I get the real, the real stuff is the Mumbar side of it specifically. E

Jeff: Ex. Yeah, totally. Cause I think like, I, these are some of my key takeaways from the Mumbar. Um, they don't lie except for when they do mm-hmm. , they, um, prize clan over everything else and prioritize honor.

So the menari are essentially the melding of Vulcans and Clingons. That's

Brent: the, I mean, that's, that's all I got reference we get, Actually, I wanna take those one by one, if you don't mind. Yeah. Because those are the interesting pieces. What was your first one

Jeff: you said? That they don't lie until they do. Yeah.

Brent: Um, that is actually a really cool trait because what they said was they're not just lying to cover their own skin or to have their own way. They're lying to protect someone's honor. Mm-hmm. . And they raised a question here, Well, whose honor are they trying to protect with this whole thing? And I, I assume it was the leadership of the third faint of Tru Domo who's doing something very dishonorable and they're trying to protect their honor.

Um, but the idea.

There's a, there's a, uh, I, I always struggle with, uh, getting into theology type stuff. Mm, mm-hmm. , when is a sin? Not a sin? Okay, let's go there. Right. When is a sin, not a sin? Is lying a sin? It is. It is a sin. And in every situation, and in every case it's a sin.

Jeff: No. So there are degrees. So, so we you're getting into There is Yeah.

Yeah. Take me there with it. Yeah. Yeah. So like, as a Catholic, right, we, we generally have what we call mortal sins. That permanently, or, or until you reconcile, but damage your relationship with God. And then you have what we call venial sins that are like, Oops. I've had priests literally say like, because here's the, here's the example, right?

There's this, do I lie about what I witnessed and someone getting killed and blah, blah, blah. And then there's the. , your partner comes into the room with a new outfit on and says, How do I look in this ? Right. Those are not the same things, but they're both lies.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Or I, I think of, um, I, I specifically from the Bible, uh, and this is where my mind goes, um, uh, the story of Moses mm-hmm.

right? Uh,

the, the male children, like under two or whatever, were all supposed to be put to death. And the ladies took and hid the baby and they lied. And they were honored because of it, because they were protecting. And there's another story later, and I, I don't exactly remember where. . Um, but there was, there were like some spies that were sent on a mission and, uh, in, in order to prevent them from being caught, somebody hid them like in their attic or something like that.

And that was, this

Jeff: is like, Huh? That was in Exodus. Um, I think, uh, not Jericho, but wherever they ended up before Jericho. So that was Yeah. But they had to hide. No, no, no,

Brent: no. It was Jericho. It was Jericho. And it was Rahab the prostitute. Yes. It was Rayhab the prostitute. Uh, now that, now that you said that. Um, and, and she lied straight up, lied to protect mm-hmm.

the people and the, the, like, what wound up happening was because of that, she's in the genealogy of, of Jesus much later on. But also when the je, and this is why I remember it, when you said Jericho, when the walls fell. Mm-hmm. , the only part of the wall left standing was the part that her house was on.

Which I always thought was an interesting little, Yeah. Little, little piece of that. But my point being not all, not all sins are always sins. Yep. Right? And for the mumbar who say, We don't lie. Oh, we don't lie. We don't lie to say, yes we lie. But when we're protecting it's, it's a lesser, It's not even a lesser of two evils.

It's the greater good. Exactly.

Jeff: It's a better,

Brent: My, my buddy Matt, you know, who was with me over beat Me up would always say, whenever somebody says For the greater good, that's how, you know, they're the real villain. So maybe the real villains are the mumbar, Jeff. Yeah.

Jeff: Maybe in all of this. But I mean, Lando, it was, I actually really like this scene where Lando gave it up, you know, where he's like, I would not lie to you Captain.

He's like, Yeah, you don't lie. The Menari don't. Who told you the Menari don't lie? What do you mean they don't lie ? But, but what he, I'm pretty sure what he referenced was the time Lanier. lied to protect him when they got arrested in that fight? At this strip club or at the, the gambling place, you know, when, uh, Lawn was whipping it out to, to cheat and they got

Brent: arrested?

Is that what that was? Uhhuh. . Cause I was thinking he was referencing something with the Lynn that I just couldn't remember what it was. Pretty sure

Jeff: it was linear. Cause he just, he blatantly he took and, and almost similar to what he offered to do for as Sean. Yeah. At the end where he was like, Yeah, you go.

But then I'll go and say that I did this because it's the honor of the, of our clan that matters and I'll lie and give myself away. Right,

Brent: right. And you know, so here's the question cuz you, you did compare them to Vulcans and I'm sitting on your reference earlier, not my own. Um, one of the things I've often said is Vulcans aren't very Vulcan.

Vulcans tell you they do stuff and they do, and then they do the exact opposite all the time. Mm-hmm. , um, is this more Vulcan behavior where they're lying to themselves about not lying or. Is it, is it actually a little more honorable? I think it's more clear. Even though this is gross what they're doing

Jeff: right now.

Yeah. I think it's more clinging on what they're doing. Yeah. In, in this and, and it's just in that phase. Cause I think that's the thing that always drove me crazy about that a Vulcan will not lie. You do All the time. All the time. Yeah. So it's, But, but just, I mean, and God just honor here, I'm gonna quote lower decks.

Honor, honor, honor, that's, this whole episode was, and yeah, it's the name of the episode, but it was the Inbar spouting it most of the time and it just was so clinging on what they were doing. Yeah. But like clinging on, not

Brent: Jeff. I know, I know you keep going back to that, but you did bring in, in a whole new reference with the lower decks.

So you,

Jeff: It's fair. That's fair. Sorry. It's alright. But the other thing I brought up was, um, what else did we talk about on them?

Brent: What was your second thing you. Oh, that Mbar

Jeff: don't lie. And then they, they prior, they have, they, they hold clan above self. And then the fact that they prioritize the honor of, of the clans in the Minbar as a

Brent: whole.

Yeah. So there was a real interesting spot and one of who was the one earlier, the review person who said that we somehow managed to tie this into current day politics. I think it was Ralph. Yeah. Yeah, Ralph. Um, so here we go with that. There is a thing that we are encountering in our day and age right now where there is a question of are people more loyal to their party or to their country?

Yeah. Are they more loyal to a person and we all know what person I'm talking about? Or are they loyal to their country? Oh, it's Booth. No, no, no. I'm gonna call you out. You're loyal to a person and that's just where you are, guys. Sorry that it's not your country. It is a person you are loyal to. Um, and.

This is something that we see here. They are more loyal to their clan than they are to their own society. Mm-hmm. , they're more loyal to this piece and, and in a different, uh, look at that. Look at the way that Ash Sean treats Delin versus the way he treats Lanier. And what I found so amazing by Lanre, and actually I want to prop up Ash Sean just for a second here.

Okay. They are on two incredibly different paths. They are looking at this whole situation from two very different sides. They do not agree Onlin on her words, on what happened, on whether or not this is right or wrong. They agree nothing. Lanier is trying to, to. Sean in his own web of lies and, and get him to confess at the same time.

While all of that's happening, they still hold a lot of respect for each other. They still can sit down and talk. They still will honor each other and give them whatever their weird hand signals are that that show honor and respect towards each other. Isn't that the way it should be? That even if you disagree with somebody, even if I'm on a complete opposite side, I can show you honor, I can show you respect.

We're going to sit down and we're going to talk and come through this. I don't know that this is a Star Trek message here, Jeff, but this is definitely a message we need to see in our country. Mm-hmm. , I don't know about Germany, I don't know about France or some of these, but from what I hear, what's going on over there, it's not that much different than what we got going on here right now.

Um, but this idea that we can come together not a, a. Well, if you don't do it my way, I'm gonna take my ball and go home. And I'm looking at everybody who's like that, not just one over the other, you know, the idea, we've got to be able to come together and, and even if we're on opposite sides, show each other respect, have a discussion.

Mm-hmm. .

Jeff: But where this fell flat, and I think you said this, but just to state it outright, is he did that with linear, cuz they're both part of the third fame of jumo. Mm-hmm. . It should be that for all Menari. Mm-hmm. . And then by pro, it should be that for everyone, you know? I mean, it's just, they're the mm-hmm.

at the like second lowest level that they can, they can, they can do that at, which is great. They're doing that. It's better than, you know, than we're doing these days. Mm-hmm. . But it's, it's just not enough. And that's, I think it ties back to when Roon got placed on the gray council and she was upset not only because he was warrior cast and that threw off the balance.

But I forget the name of his clan, but she was like, he's warrior cast from this clan. Mm-hmm. like, these people, you know, are, are awful. So it's almost like really what we have today, but we haven't, we don't, haven't put a name on it yet where Yeah, in America we have a two party system, but within those parties are these like little sub things?

They just have that in a really codified way. Warrior cast, religious cast, worker, cast, I guess. And then the Klans within those,

Brent: we know there's at least three worker class people in their whole society. I don't know if there's any more than that, but there are at least three of them. One thing, uh, I, I will go on with this, that I found

as a cool callback. Do you remember back in the episode, Voice and the wilder. Where we got the, the draw, right? The battery guy. Yeah. Mm-hmm. , right? That was drawl, right? The, the old Mumbar dude. Yep. He's coming in. He has a conversation with Dilin in that episode and he says, I don't recognize Men Bar anymore.

And I'm sitting here going, This has to be what it is, because they said like, one dude's holding other dude by the neck in, um,

Jeff: this points of departure, I think,

Brent: uh, was it? Yeah. Say yes. Say it's just points of departure. And he, he says the OTO line, We don't hurt each other.

Jeff: Yeah. Menari don't

Brent: kill Menari or way Yeah.

Menari don't, don't kill Menari. Menari don't hurt each other. Um, and Wolf turns out they do, right? Yep. Um, Mumbar, the Mumbar Great Council has been, uh, the balance has been disrupted and now there's a, a majority where there's not supposed to be a majority. Um, and then we see the, we've seen these things from Mumbar culture.

and what's going on with a, with Ash, Sean specifically, how he's dealing with dilin, which I find disgusting. Mm-hmm. . But is, I mean, I feel like I could be watching something in modern day. Yeah. It's mirrored

Jeff: right now. Mirrored exactly right now, which is crazy. I

Brent: don't answer to a 30 years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, that's just nuts to me. But, uh, yeah, that's, that's all I had on the whole

Jeff: mbar thing. I, I thought this is a funny thing. Where, So right before Sheridan shot, dude, he's like, he yells death first. Yeah. And then then's like, No, we're pretty sure. He said, Death first. . Which means I yield to your authority.

It's like, no, they're saying, uh, de bur debar d you know, or whatever it was in Mr. Burns. D Burns. D The burns. The burns. Not die. Not die. Burns. , .

Brent: I know that reference. I know exactly what you're

Jeff: talking about. Took me a minute to remember, but it's like, ah. But then, uh, another awesome scene. We got Zach, we got Ka Nicki in this episode, Uhhuh, and he was full K Nicki mode.

Mm-hmm. . So NATA comes up, NATA attorney, nata, I'm, that's what I'm gonna call her. Comes up and he's like, Hey, excuse me Mr. And he is like, Oh, hey Allen, ma'am Zach Allen. . I was like, God, yeah, you're awesome.

Brent: Hey, I had just had a thought. Uh, now I need a spinoff That is nata the, uh, nata the attorney and she hulked the attorney.

Oh, man. Teaming up. That's what I now need.

Jeff: That'd be great. So two, um, let me see here. Yeah, two other kind of thoughts on the Sheridan side of things. Yeah.

Brent: Oh yeah, yeah. I wanted,

Jeff: Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so one on, and for this, in this whole Minbar piece, Oh, actually I have three real quick one, and I kind of mentioned it in my initial thoughts, but dude's a captain of a huge space station.

He fills out reports all day long and he's arguing with Garabaldi on how like, all of that just felt like way outta character for the station that the level that he's at,

Brent: I don't know what you're talking about. So

Jeff: he gets. They find out, they, they, he killed a guy and Gar Baldies wanted to launch his investigation. Mm-hmm. And he keeps asking him questions, Well, did it happen like this or did it happen? Like, Well, it doesn't matter how it happened like this. He said this and that's what happened. That's not what's important there, Sharid, and we gotta defend this.

No prosecutor's gonna take that. They'll eat you alive. You know? Did, Where would, where'd you get the gun from? Well, it was just, it was just stand there. What do you think Sheridan? Just tell him the report. Tell him what happened. That's part of your job as a bureaucrat and an administrator Right. Is to do that stuff.

It was felt way outta character to me.

Brent: So something that I think was really in character was what Sheridan did at the end. Yes. When the whole thing came out and of, of all the people and of all the things Sheridan did. The most Mindy thing ever. He came up with a solution that didn't require some public disgrace, but that would just fix it.

And no one's ever gonna notice what, what Sheridan just did here. And that's gonna be okay because he's just being of service. Mm-hmm. . Right? He doesn't need the accolades, it's just, you know, just make it happen. And he helped them save face. Mm-hmm. . That's all he needed. I have another prediction for you, Jeff.

Oh, I don't, I don't think this one's too far off. Okay. Sheridan is also part

Jeff: minbar. A hundred percent. Yeah, I agree. . Yeah, I think we might have, we might have planned that flag a little while ago actually. Right? Cause Yeah, no, it was great because he took, everybody kept trying to layer stuff on top of it.

What statement should we make? Will Minbar support this? Well, blah. And he is like, I got mugged and I shot the guy. Like, that's what happened, You know? Right. Not a big deal. What it reminded me of was in the Wheel of Time books and I'm, I'm, I think I mentioned last week, I'm reading through, but there's this game, political game they play called Dees DeMar.

Okay. Where it's all about political positioning and how can I take this situation and make you look dumb and me look good? And that was the whole, like, that's all everybody was doing except Sheridan, who was like, Man, dude mugged me. Let's just say that. Like whatever. But it was such a simple solution and this will tie, uh, to when we start talking about the, the cost stuff with him.

But it was, his solution was simple and beautiful, like in the face of darkness. Mm-hmm. , he provided a simple and beautiful solution that everyone came out on top. You put KO's lesson right into play. Mm-hmm. , that was a bad time to put that segue in because this is my other big question, or my observation.

Menari wants Sheridan gone. Right? You're Sheridan star killer. We're gonna get rid of you. Earth Alliance was gonna press charges as well, and attorney a Toth said This is gonna force you to resign permanently. I think President Clark and crew are looking for an opportunity to get rid of Sheridan. Hmm. I don't know if they know that he's on to them or there's something going on, but that was a very like, she's just like, Look, I can tell you this.

We're gonna press charges and you're gonna have to resign permanently. They didn't have to do that. They didn't have to say that. So I think he's got a little target on his

Brent: back. Yeah. I remember when she gave that explanation. I remember kind of going, Okay, I kind of get it. They're just trying to get in front of it, but it is going to mean either way.

He's gotta be gone. And I was like, well first of all, he's not gonna be gone because we just got him and he's gonna run the rest of the show. Cause I don't wanna go through another command change. Right. Um, cuz it's all about me now. Uh, but yeah. Yeah. Uh, the idea that, that Clark is trying to get rid of him isn't surprising to me.

I think it's, it's not, it's not on my hot list right now. Mm-hmm. , like that's very on the back burner until it becomes a thing, you know? But, uh, Sure. Yeah. And maybe that, that's gonna be a deal we're gonna get into like the heat of everything when like everyth, when we really need Sheridan it level and then Clark's gonna step in and pull him out and be like, not now we need

Jeff: him.

This is the time. Let's talk about, uh, the Sheridan and Kosh stuff. Like what were your, what were your observations on

Brent: that? Dude, the idea that Kosh is coming to Sheridan, like, No, no, no, we're going to keep this, I love that whole scene where it's like, No, well, I just don't have time. And K is like, Yeah, you do, You know what it felt like to me, it felt like Dumble door coming to get Harry for his private lessons.

Like, I don't care what you got going on. We're gonna do this. It's time. This is, this is important. Let's go. Um, that, that's what it felt like to me. He goes in, they, I don't, I don't know how else to describe it, but a hot box. Like that's, that's really what it was. He goes, there's that whole like thing about where he has to do the bar and all that.

I mean, it just feels like this is just padding and padding and padding. And then the chanting starts. The whole music and I'm like, Holy crap. It actually is music. Interesting.

Jeff: With great reverb in that hot box, I guess. Well, I mean, that's

Brent: amazing, right? And uh, you didn't have to fake that one. That's just natural.

Um, although I'm not sure there's enough bounce in that, that little area, but there's all these people just coming out of the woodwork. I'm like, who are they? These guys are these vlan right outside of a, outside of their, their suits or just in whatever their cloaks are and they're doing something. And all of a sudden just from listening to the music, Sheridan gets high.

He's like, Whoa, dude. That was pretty cool, man. I never knew. All right. All right, All right. And that's all we got.

Jeff: I got so much out of this scene. Let's go so much. Okay. So he sends him into the hot box. What's in there? Beauty. And so I'm just gonna read my note cause I went through this stream of consciousness.

Consciousness on it. Even in the worst and darkest of places. There's beauty in the darkness. In the shadows. There's beauty. Oh my God. The vlan are the beauty in the shadows. So Sheridan, when you're facing darkness and shadows. No, there's beauty and I'm right here.

Brent: You know what that reminds me of is, is in a, uh, , it kind of goes back to a spiritual thing when you're in the middle of it, to remember where real beauty is.

Like to, to reach into this place. Go to your happy place. Mm-hmm. . And there, there I'll be or, or, or whatever. Like, that's an interesting, interesting piece like,

Jeff: Then the scene that I loved was that command bar thing. Like he goes through this whole thing, he talks about what the stat bars are and what probably got a dozen of these and then he drops it into the dish.

Brent, that was him symbolically giving up his command. Oh, Sheridan. So here's, here's the lesson. Yeah. This is the lesson. Whatever KO is preparing Sheridan for, he's going to have to give voluntarily, give everything away in order to reach his full potential. And this was the exercise that meant nothing, right?

Oh yeah, I'll do this. But there's gonna come a time where he will give up his command, He will give up the things that we think are important to him so he can become something bigger. That's what Kos is teaching him.

Brent: That's amazing. I did not think about that. I love that you thought about that. I'm glad you put it on on tape as we, you now have it recorded.

Mark it down. I am picking up everything you're laying down. I love it. Yeah.

Jeff: I love that scene. I thought it was brilliant and it, and I think just on, on my last note on everything is, it was fascinating to, and I get why, but it was a real, I think, brave decision from an editing and pacing standpoint that that was all one unbroken scene.


Brent: it really? Yeah. Like it was one shot?

Jeff: No, no. The multiple shots and great, like the beautiful, beautiful practical effect.

Brent: Oh, you just mean they didn't edit other stuff into that scene.

Jeff: It wasn't intercut with something else. Which is normally what happens on a big scene. You know, they're gonna pop back and forth, but they did the whole thing as one solid scene.

Mm-hmm. and it just hit that po it made it more pow, like it pulled us in to that moment. Like when the music started, you're just like, Cuz it was uncomfortable up until the chanting started, you know, like, it let us experience kind of what he was feeling.

Brent: So what do you think the music's all about? Cause that's the, that's the, like I went, Holy crap.

Kos really is talking about hearing the music and hearing the song. What is this all about?

Jeff: So I wish I knew, and I am, it's clearly a riff on something Catholic, right? Because that's Gregorian chant. I don't know if it's a real song or not. Um, I don't know if it matters in the, if, if it doesn't matter, go ahead and tell me you know, what, what that song is.

If it does matter, don't say anything. But I, I think it really was that metaphor for shut up, listen to the music and you'll find real beauty. Just caution the vore on or next level good at doing that. That's a lesson he tried to give to Talia. Actually, back in the, back in the episode, Listen, forget the lyrics, listen to the music.

And then he said to Sheridan, I'm doing, and then he, then he made him listen to music. There's, it's all, it's all in the music. I like it.

Brent: All right, Jeff. Well, we . Sorry. All right, Jeff. Well, we've reached that part of the show where it's time to boil it all down. And honestly, I think you just did. But we're gonna see if this show has any of that star treky quality to it. Is there a deep moral message? Is there a mirror holding up to society?

Yes, I do think there is definitely that. Is it giving us hope that we can be better in the future? No, I don't think it's necessarily doing that. Uh, Jeff, I'm gonna rate this on a scale of zero to five Deltas and talking about how Star Trek this episode is. You're gonna do the star Furies, unless I will give you the opportunity.

Do you wanna switch this week or you wanna leave it right where it is? Let's leave it where it is.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: Yeah. Uh, well, I'll go first with Deltas. Cool. Uh, I'm gonna give this one a one and a half delta rating, and we go up to five. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, zero to five. Yep. I'm gonna give this a one and a half.

There were some definite Star Trek themes throughout this episode. Might actually could bump it up based on what you just said there. Although I think that's more of a Babylon five theme than it is a Star Trek theme. But I like it. I like where you're going. I don't know that Star Trek would ever do that.

You have to give up whatever it it is in order to achieve.


Jeff: almost more, almost more of a Star Wars thing than a Star Trek thing.

Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Cuz that's, that's definitely has more of a religious feel to it. Mm-hmm. like you have to shed this in order to, to do that. Um, so I'm gonna give it one and a half, mostly because it's more of a smattering of stuff.

There's not really a, a thing, but there are a few things, uh, throughout the course of the episode we've already commented on, uh, particularly having to do with Mumbar Society holding up that mirror to us. Uh, yeah. One and a half. What do you got for Star Furies?

Jeff: I feel like that's a good number. I'm gonna give it one and a half star theories.

This episode was a mess. It was all over the place. And honestly, if they just had the Kosh thing and maybe some, one of the other B stories that they actually fleshed out mm-hmm. and did something, Oh, it would've been fine with this episode, but it was just, I couldn't follow it. It was a, it was a mess. It was too many pieces thrown together with a couple kind of high notes in there.

Brent: I'm really glad that we didn't have like, some big long break between our last episode and this episode, , you know? Yeah. Like, I'm ready to, to, to get moving on. All right. Well, starting now in season two, we are ranking every episode as we go. This is the absolute 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of Babylon five, season two.

Jeff, where are you gonna put their, All the honor lies our top five right now. Just to remind everybody out there is number one, the coming of shadows. Number two, erase through dark places. I don't even remember what that episode was about. Number three, all alone in the night. I don't know that I remember what that one was about.

Four Hunter pre. That was last week. I don't know that I, Yes, I do remember what that one was about. And then five, uh, soulmates. Where are we gonna place this one? Well, you didn't have to go to the top five. That's crack the top

Jeff: five. Yeah. You didn't need to go there, . Yeah. Uh, so, um, I am gonna go with on this one.

So it's definitely not better than techno majors, so it's definitely gonna be below, um, the geometry of shadows. So it's that grow pose is in there. And so the question for me is, do I prefer Dodger or Minbar Karate And the nerd fight that we almost got between Lanier and E Sean . So, real quick, like he knocks out Zach Allen in this way that would actually break his wrist the way, like it just, the Okay, great.

I really, Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. I would much rather get more dodger. In my life. Then Inbar karate, I'm gonna put this one at number 10.

Brent: You know, it is a shame that Dodger died at the end of that episode. I know. Because she would be a perfect character to like come back later on and do something else with, you know,

Jeff: she could be the new nata

Right? We need somebody to fill that, fill that gap.

Brent: Right. Um, I am not gonna argue with you at all. This is one of those, um, episodes. I, I refer to episodes like laundry episodes. Like it's not a great episode, but if I'm sitting there folding laundry and it comes on, I'll sit there and watch it. This isn't that.

This is the episode that like I'm flipping through the channels and I come across in B on five. Oh, yeah, Yeah. And I'm gonna watch this one and probably about the time it gets to whatever its commercial break is, I'm flipping the channels again. Like I'm not sticking around for it. I'm not like, Oh God, it's this episode I'm leaving.

It's more just like a. Okay, well, let's see what else is on. Yeah. You know, and if nothing else is on, I might come back to this one. It's the

Jeff: one, like, it's that, it's that kind of an episode. It's the one to put it in its time in the nineties. It's that one that you have on the TV guide channel or the guide up in the, you know, little thing as you're scrolling through looking at other things.


Brent: you go. Yeah. Great, great. Uh, comparison.

Jeff: Well, I'm, I'm putting us in that place in the nineties cuz I'm gonna need it for this next game that we're about to play. Cuz we are done with there. All the honor lies. Thank God. Yeah. And the game that we like to play is next week we are gonna be watching and now for a word, it's our next episode.

We don't know anything about this. Brent literally just heard me say the title. And so the game we play is we're going to guess what next week's episode is gonna be about based on the title alone. So Brent, what do you think? And now for a word is going to be about. Well, you

Brent: have to complete this. We, we already got the store, so this is now a for a word from our sponsors.

Jeff: I, I'm never gonna not laugh. ,

Brent: how you, you know, it's great. Is on, on YouTube. I can still see you even though that like goes full screen and nobody else sees what you, I can still see you and I know what you're doing. Well that's on the screen anyway. Uh, and if you guys don't know what we're talking about, please, that's probably cuz you're listening to the audio version.

Go over to YouTube, check out our YouTube channel. Lots of more fun is happening over there as well. And now for a word. I mean, this feels like,

So Stargate, we've talked about Stargate a lot. Stargates a great show. Stargate is a show that. Absolutely takes itself seriously. But every once in a while you catch an episode that does not take itself that seriously at all. And it, it, it comes way out of left field, Particularly the 100th episode and the 200th episode of Stargate.

They're so good and so funny and just, just amazing. I really hope that's what this show is like. It's, it, it's not gonna have anything to do with the shadows. It's not gonna have anything to do with Mars or President Clark or Mbar. It's just, or Cyco. It's, they're gonna stop. They're gonna kind of poke fun at themselves.

Maybe poke fun at Star Trek and just have a fun little, little deal because it can't be anything like, and now for a word from our sponsor, like, I don't know what else it could be.

Jeff: I think the same thing, like the store didn't work. That was supposed to make like, what, 22 million credits or whatever, Like Yeah.

That was some huge money.

Brent: 2 million. You know, we didn't talk about, Sheridan was cool with it until he found a bear with his initials on it, and now he's gonna pull 22 million out of the budget. Yeah. I don't think that works. Right. Something there, but No, no, no, no, no. His boss is gonna

Jeff: override him on that.

Yep. So I see sponsorships coming up. You know, the, Hey, we've got a staff meeting coming up, brought to you by zma. There you go. Are we gonna get the ZMA logos again? , but, but I do think the next thing though is this episode came out in 95, I think it was 92 or 93 when the big rage started being reality tv.

That's when the real world came out. The very, the MTV's, the real world. Like, I almost see like we're have sponsors and we're gonna put cameras all over the place and we're gonna film a reality show on, on five, like, like the

Brent: Office or Parks and Rec or one of those shows, like it's the mockumentary

Jeff: type thing.

Get the confessional things where they're just like, Oh my God, Gar Baldi again with the, the Duck Dodgers thing.

Brent: Like that would be he lo oh, so like, uh, like, um, they're, they're tr people back on Earth want know what's going on on Babylon five. So they send a camera crew out to video everyone, and, and you know, they get, they're gonna have people doing journals and they're gonna be resisting it and all that kind of stuff.

And, and some crew. By the way, Stargate did that episode as well. Really? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Uh, it was a good episode. Had Saul Ruberick in it, if you Oh, nice. Yeah. Yeah, it was great episode. Great episode. Anyway, uh, so yeah, I'm looking forward to this, this, I don't know if it's gonna redeem the whole season, but this could, this.

In calculus terms, this could be a relative Maxima type episode for anyone out there who understands that

Jeff: word. We've had a lot of math in this episode. Yes, we're doing fractions earlier and stuff. Well, we're gonna find out next week what, And now for a word is gonna be about, Thank you all so much for joining us here.

If you haven't already, please subscribe wherever you're listening or watching and pop over to Apple Podcast. Leave us a review, even a one star review. We'll, I'd prefer like more like 3, 4, 5 is probably better, but either way, we will read it right here on the podcast. So, until next time, Jeff. No, Brent.

Nope. I got it. This, I got it this time. All right. I got really what you got? I got this for. What is that

Brent: Baron? Hold on, hold on. I got, There is a a, there's an audio audience out there. So Jeff is holding up a white teddy bear with Creamsicle orange swirly stripes on it and a pink nose and eyelashes,

Jeff: and I call him Bar Allen.

Hmm hmm.

Brent: This is the spot where, I suppose I'm supposed to repeat what Sheridan said at the end of the episode and go something like, No, I want that off the show. Yanked out, boxed up and shipped up by oh 800 tomorrow. But you know what? That thing is adorable and I'd much rather have 22 million, so I say keep it.

Here you go. Thank you.

Jeff: Peace and long life.