Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi

Jeff: Welcome to Babylon five for the first time. My name is Jeff Akin and I'm watching Babylon five for the first time.

Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I'm also watching Babylon five for the very first time. Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters watching Babylon five four the very first time. And we are searching for what we call those Star Trek like messages. Uh, but we're really trying to see how Babylon five does them in its own special.

Jeff: And this is not a podcast about Star Trek

Brent: It's in the title.

Jeff: It's right there. Not a Star Trek podcast. To keep us honest, we play the rule of three. This is a game where each one of us gets three up to three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. No substitutions. Exchanges a refund. Hey

Brent: Hey Jeff.

Jeff: we have a five star review.

Oh yes. It's from Apple

Brent: Jeff, I'm sorry. I gotta stop you. So something about that sound clip. There is this little, like, there's this little moment right at the end and I don't know what Kar is doing, but it sounds like he snorts at the end. Have you ever noticed this?

Jeff: me listen. Let me listen. Hold on. Okay, here we go. Oh, yes. Yeah, . I never caught that.

Brent: I've never said anything, but it always makes me laugh just a little bit.

Jeff: I love that scene though. Like cuz literally he's just like, oh.

Brent: Whoa. Yes, it's, it's like he's daddy pig from Peppa Pig or something. Sorry. Go ahead. Reset.

Jeff: This is from Apple Podcast nineties. Kid yells at Cloud says, and this is actually really timely given our conversation last week. Great to listen to. Frustrating for all the right reasons. Happy I've caught up with the shows and I can listen on my Monday commute. No false advertising here. The hosts are an encyclopedia of Star Trek, an encyclopedia of Star Trek knowledge, and great at connecting their first watch to both Trek and in an oddly fitting way, organizational leadership dynamics. If I have one frustrating thing, it's how not encyclopedic their knowledge is of other influences of this show, like Toan and other classic sci-fi novels in movies, not making the connections between Clark's Rama or well to avoid spoilers. Lots of things in the Lord of the Rings has me yelling at my phone on the regular guys.

Zha Kazam. So many connections. Loving every minute though, even the frustrating parts.

Brent: Jeff, I have a question. Is this an older review that we're

Jeff: Uh, couple weeks. Couple weeks old. Yeah.

Brent: couple weeks? Are you sure?

Jeff: Might be a little older. I don't know.

Well, we didn't, we didn't make that connection honestly, till like three weeks ago,

Brent: right. Well, because I, I remember back, it was season two when we had in the shadow of Zaha dom, which was the first time we ever heard the phrase Zaha dom. Um, uh, there was a lot of people in the comments talking about the bridge of Kaza doom and stuff.

And I, and just sort of, I think, went over our heads. We didn't, we didn't, uh, come back to it. But I think I remember, maybe, maybe I'm dreaming it, I'm not really sure. Anyway, uh, , we're, we're just on the backlog right now. Uh, I will say this, particularly after like in these last couple of weeks and seeing some stuff, one of the premises we started the show with was kind of going, okay, so we've always heard the deep space nine supposedly ripped off Babylon five.

Let, I, I kinda wanna see what it is, you know.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: I, I, I, I need a better word than ripoff. Jeff. Gimme a gi, gimme a better word. Le Yes. Okay. I would say that based on what I'm seeing now, it almost seems to me, and I haven't seen the whole show, but it almost seems to me that Babylon five was more inspired by Lord of the Rings than Deep Space Nine was inspired by Babylon five.

Jeff: I agree. And also if we like really start digging back, and we're gonna talk about some of this here in a little bit. Lord of the Rings was inspired by a lot of stuff before that. A lot of Greek and Roman mythology, the Bible, like very specifically Toan, is famously, famously a very devout person. And the whole Lord of the Ring's trilogy is really an examination of Christ and, and all the stuff that goes along with that.

So, um, this goes way back. So, yeah, I think, uh, well, and I think I, we talked about it for Casey Hudson, who was one of the executive producers for mass effects. He's like, Yeah, we borrowed from Babylon five and Buck Rodgers and Star Wars and Star Trek because everyone borrows from everyone. And that's how this

Brent: and dabble on five borrowed from

Jeff: from those as well, right?

Yeah.

Brent: that. I remember you saying, but, uh, how dare he say, I have not an encyclopedia knowledge.

Jeff: Right. Seriously.

Brent: Actually, I may not have an encyclopedic knowledge, but I do have a pretty, I think I have a pretty good grasp on a lot of these things, despite what people out there say,

Jeff: I think we do pretty good. You know, I, I'd say at least once a week someone's like, oh my gosh, I never made that, that connection

Brent: I promise you we're gonna make a Lord of the Rings connection in this episode.

Jeff: yeah. A, A bible. A Bible one too. There's gonna be a Bible one in this. Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: Yeah. In fact, it might be a Lord of the Rings connection and a Bible connection in the same reference.

Jeff: right. It's weird. Weird how that

works. You know, Hey, you know what we have. Another five star review. Oh yes. I'm never not gonna hear that now. you've ruined. You've ruined the drop. I'm gonna go in after this, I think and fix it. I'm gonna be like, can I just beep? Take that little piece away. This one's also from Apple Podcast.

Big Bucks. Mama says, that's a great

Brent: I think Oh, okay. Yeah, go ahead.

Jeff: Okay, big bucks. Mama says my favorite B five podcast. I absolutely love this podcast. Jeff and Brent are fantastic and they're guesses are always so spot on, unless the times that they're not and then they are really far off. But I won't tell you which is which because Well, spoilers.

Well for now, all I will say is, When comes to get ready because we'll reveal that he is and you won't even see it coming. Then Will and you're gonna love it. Big buck's. Mama violated the rule of three there. Pretty judiciously.

Brent: Uh, big book's. Mama might have confused, uh, uh, star Trek references and buzzes with, uh, spoilers, but whatever. Uh,

Jeff: fun.

Brent: Okay, so here's the thing. First of all, shout out to you. Big buck's, mama. I think I, okay. I don't know who Big Buck's Mama is, but like our friend Wash Big Buck's Mama has been, has like, kind of followed me through several different podcasts that I've had over the years, and, and she, I'm gonna assume it's a, she, uh, like emails in and occasionally tweets and different stuff like that.

So it's just, it's fun. Listen, when you're hearing this big Bucks, mama, it's, it's Mama. You, you just, you're cool. You're one of my favorite, like people that j you just make me smile. This stuff you send in. So, uh, thanks for, thanks for doing a movie. You're here too. That's awesome.

Jeff: That's super

Brent: Yeah, it is. It is neat when people like follow you from show to show and, uh, you know, like you just, you, you reco like our friend Wash, you know, our friend Wash has been around for, for a while.

Uh, he's a super cool dude. Um, and by the, you know what else is really cool is when like, you're, you're just walking in a crowd and you're talking. And the person in front of you like perks up and like turns around and looks at you and they're like, I know your voice

Jeff: right?

Brent: Are you? Like, that's the weirdest thing to me, and it's awesome every time it happens.

And listen, if you ever recognize my voice out there, please feel free to turn around and say hi. I'm cool with it.

Jeff: Yeah, I agree. It is an amazing thing when that happens. A little weird sometimes I get nervous cuz my voice was in a lot of places and it's just like, they're like, I know your voice. I'm like, where? From what

Brent: we're were you?

Jeff: What's this about to turn? Yeah. What's this about? To turn into

Brent: Well, hey Jeff, uh, you know, along with our rule of three, along with reading our, uh, reviews and comments from our great listeners out there, uh, we like to play games and we like to another game we like to play. Try that again. Well, hey Jeff. You know, along with our rule of three, uh, and reading reviews and things like that, one of the other games that we like to play on this show is when we get to the end of the episode, we take a look at next week's episode title, and that's all we've ever seen out of it is the title, and we try to guess what next week's episode is gonna be about based on that title alone. Sometimes we're ridiculously close, and other times we're ridiculously far away. Now is the time to find out just how close or far away we were. So, Jeff, do you remember what you said? Whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi was gonna be about and how close were you?

Jeff: So I thought the big sting on this was gonna be that we weren't going to see Garabaldi at all in this one. And for most of the episode we didn't. But then, uh, then we got a big, big little reveal going with him. But I thought this was mostly gonna be kar running around trying to figure out what happened to Garabaldi.

Pretty much nailed that piece. Uh, how about you? How'd.

Brent: Well, I said that this was going to be, uh, literally all about Gu Baldi, and it was literally gonna be like his story. And we probably weren't gonna see too many of the other people because when we last saw him, Sheridan had given him a job, didn't tell us what it was, made it a big secret, said he couldn't tell anybody, sent 'em out in a star fury, and he attached his star fury to a shadow ship, or he got swallowed up by the shadow ship, one of the two.

I couldn't really tell which, and that's the last we saw of him. And this is, this to me was the episode where we were gonna track his story wherever he went. And honestly, in the Lord of the Rings kind of a way, the, the crew splits, like the Fellowship of the Rings split. And we track with each of the different stories as we go through.

Um, uh, my, my thought was it was gonna be through the season, honestly. Uh, but that's, that's not at all. At all what this episode was about.

Jeff: It's not, but you wanna know what this episode was about? Are you curious? Have we peaked your curiosity in any way? Have you not watched this in like 25, 30 years? Did you just watch it the other day? And you're curious what our take is on it? Maybe it is. Cause that's why you're listening to this. Brent, will you do myself, our viewers and our listeners a huge solid and walk us through whatever happened to Mr.

Gu.

Brent: Well, hey, you remember that weird guy way down with Sheridan and that, try that again. Well, hey, you remember that weird guy with Sheridan way down in that hole? Well, it turns out he has a name and his name is Lorian, as in La Lath. Lian as in the forest. And also, not only that, but he is also the first one.

No, no, no. Not a first one. V. First one, as in father of all, like everyone as in God. And he really doesn't like to see his children. That's the volans and the shadows, and you and me and the Imbar and everybody. He doesn't like to see us fighting. And as for Sheridan, well maybe he's dead. Maybe he's still falling.

Maybe he's caught in a moment between moments. Maybe he is simply caught between life and death wherever he is. Sheridan wants out, and this guy Lorian knows the way, but he isn't given that up because he's now got somebody to talk to. Sheridan is actually the first one to make it this far. The shadows know that Lorian is down in there, which is why they keep coming back to Zaha Doom.

They think it's honoring or something like that, but really they don't even know anymore. And the Volans, well, , they're just scared to die. Kind of like Sheridan is, but that's not life. Lorian says, clinging to life is not living. Lorian says that Sheridan must let go of his life to give in and give in to the current situation in order to be free of it.

And finally, as Sheridan does, he finds himself holding on to the one thing that makes life worth living for Dalen. Speaking of Dalen, Dalen is on a long-term fast, but Dr. Franklin is concerned cuz after all, Dalen doesn't just have a imbar body anymore. She's human now. And this could actually be really dangerous for.

But honestly I don't think Delin was listening to. Dr. Franklin expressed this to her at all because she's still caught up on why didn't she tell Sheridan about Anna and her possibly still being alive? Was it because she wanted Sheridan all to herself and now she's responsible for Sheridan going to Zaha Doom until she sees a video of Sheridan recording his thoughts on the moment he realized he was in love with her and Dalen decides that's it.

She is gonna mount a full scale assault of Zaha Doom. So strap in boys and speaking of boys Marcus Cole and Ja Car are off to find Mr. Garabaldi, they don't have much to go on, but they do wind up in a bar somewhere and some dirty rotten rat sells out. Kar to the Sonari and Kar gets captured and taken back to Sonari Prime Emperor Carta summons Lando, who is shocked.

To see Kar, who is being given to Lando as a surprise present by Carta. Later, when they're alone, Kar and Lando have a conversation. Lando tells Jaar about his plan to off the Mad Emperor, but he needs Ja car's help. Now Kar is gonna have to endure whatever the emperor is getting ready to do to him. Lando is just gonna have to watch.

And when the time is right, Kar is gonna help Lando kill Emperor Carta, and in exchange for this, Londo will ensure that the Narn are set free once again. Now, all of that, and we haven't even talked about Mr. Garabaldi, and the name of this episode is where, or whatever. Now, after all of that, we haven't even talked about Mr.

Garabaldi and the whole name of this episode is Whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi? Well, turns out. He was captured and put into a holding cell. Apparently a cyco holding cell at that. That's it. One minute and 40 seconds of screen time, and the entire episode was named after that, the end. Jeff, what'd you think of this episode?

Whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi?

Jeff: Dude, this was dark. This was a really, really dark episode. Like I, I think I've come to expect that, you know, so from time to time with, uh, Come to expect that from time to time with Babylon five. Like it's not an unheard of thing, but holy crud. Uh, but, but nothing's shocking again, like, I mean, that's not true.

There's a lot shocking when we talk about, uh, lot Lian. Excuse me, Lian, because Yep. I got that too. But, uh, this is the, we're on the rails. Like we're, we're rolling, things are moving, we're gonna have some extra context, you know, added along the way. But I think like we're, we're strapped in for the ride Kar ending up captured on Tari Prime.

Not a shock, right? Like this, this was likely gonna be a place we were gonna end up. We saw him, you know, show up in that future place in War without End. You said Lian might be God, essentially I have very different thoughts. We have a lot to talk about with Lian. Um, I look forward to. I'm gonna address this directly to people out there.

Um, I really liked Dr. Franklin in this episode. I thought he was great. I thought he was perfect, basically. Uh, I really, really liked him in this one, but, oh my God. You wanna talk about symbolism? You wanna talk

Brent: I'm sorry, real quick. Jeff.

Jeff: the head? Oh, yeah.

Brent: Ask me how many notes I have about Dr. Franklin in my, in my, my whole thing here.

Jeff: Hey, Brent. How many notes do you have about Dr. Franklin?

Brent: a single one. Not a one. Go ahead.

Jeff: I have

three.

Brent: You have three. I don't have

Jeff: three. Because I am capable of looking past my biases and judging someone on their performance into their objective behavior. But, hey,

Brent: I barely noticed him in this episode.

Jeff: Maybe part of the reason I liked him in it, maybe I mean, everybody loves brussel sprouts. If you only have to eat part of wine, you know, I mean, it's not that

Brent: No. I still don't like brussel STRs.

Jeff: I love 'em, actually, I really love brussel sprouts. But this, I, I, I, gosh, I mean, Kar strung with the cross, you know, the carrying the timber as he walks, literally walking the stations of the cross. Like we, we are at the first station right now with Jaar, and it is, oh, it is so good. In fact, we'll talk about it in detail.

But I would like right now, um, in retrospective whatever thing to submit my nomination for Peter Jik, uh, for, uh, Emmy for outstanding dramatic performance in a science fiction, uh, thing. Cuz holy crud, he brought it in this episode. What about you? What were your first reactions?

Brent: Well, the, the first thing that I think I need to say, Jeff, is happy anniversary to you and Mrs. Jeff.

Jeff: Thank you for that. I

appreciate

Brent: is, that time of year for you guys. So happy

Jeff: it's always, always a fun time. Thank you.

Brent: Um, This is an episode where we are still dealing with the fallout of what happened at the end of season three. Not everybody's back on the station yet. We're not back to life as as normal, which usually you get to by like episode two or three. Oh, we're not there yet. This is going to carry on. I don't see Kar and probably Lando coming back to the station, uh, very often, if at all, for the remainder of this season anyway.

At least not in the, at least not in the foreseeable future.

Jeff: I could see Ja car never stepping foot on Babylon five. Again, like that's a very realistic path right

Brent: Yeah. Um, I thought right up until the very end we might not see Sheridan back on Babylon. On, on Babylon five. I think now we have a really good chance of seeing him back on Babylon five. Uh, presuming that whatever this assault that Dylan's about to lead is, you know, gonna be effective in rescuing him.

However that works, because Jeff, I, we gotta talk, I got some questions we gotta talk about, like where the, what the heck is this whole thing? We'll, we'll get there. Um, this is not an episode that I can sit back and say, I loved.

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: is not an episode that, like, when we get to the end of Babbel on five, and I'm thinking back to, man, that was a good episode.

Am I gonna remember this episode? In fact, I've ventured to say, by the time we get halfway through this season and we're doing rankings and be like, wait, what, what happened? Whatever happened to Mr. Aldi? Oh, yeah. It was all that stuff. Everything that happened in this episode though, was important.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: There was nothing wasted in this episode. I don't know that cohesively, like it makes a great episode, but every bit of it was so good. Probably the best thing to me though, is for the first time in a long time, Jeff, we got Lando and Ja car in a room talking, and once again, they stole the episode. Now the whole stuff was Sheridan and Lorian. I dug, I loved that whole bit, but Kar and la there's just something so strong about those two together.

And I was thinking about this the other day, a while back, Jeff, while back, like maybe a year ago at this point, um, our friends over at the Gray 17 podcast had Peter Juris as a, uh, as a guest on one of their shows. And, you know, I'm listening and, and a lot of the questions somehow revolved around, uh, Peter and his relationship with Andreas.

But I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, you know, Peter actually spent a lot more time with Steven first than he did with Andreas. I mean, now I don't know what's coming up here in the last two seasons for Londo and Jaar and how much time they're gonna be together, but we haven't really seen Londo and Jaar on screen together since really season one,

Jeff: Well, we saw in a friendly way. I think the last time we saw them together was dust to dust.

Brent: was the elevator scene. Right.

Jeff: No, that was convictions. Was that, and then dust to dust

was when he snorted up and then he would beat 'em within an

inch.

Brent: out of him. Right. Um, and then, but then there was, there was the elevator scene and then before that it was, it was just a couple of small moments, but you remember that epi that season one, like it was just LA to a jaar rubbing against each other and stealing every scene that they were in together, you know?

Um, this is like one of the first time we just haven't had that in so long and, but I was thinking like with Steven first, like what was his relationship like with.

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: You know, um, and I bet like I, I'd be interested cuz everybody always asks about the, the Lando and, and Andreas, the Peter and Andreas. But, but I wanted that, I can see out of this episode why it's the Lando and Kar relationship that stands out because there is, like, Peter is at his very best as an actor when it's Andreas across the way that's taking nothing away from Steven.

I'm taking nothing away from Bruce or Mira or, um, uh, Jerry or anybody. I'm not taking anything away from any of 'em. But when Andreas is the one who's across the room from him, Peter just elevates all the way around. And it was, it was so good to see that. Um, I loved the conversation, like I said, that Lorianne and Sheridan had with each other, uh, the, the Dalen stuff, you know, her, her and Sheridan. Having come to the realization that they both love each other. Now, being able to voice it to each other in various ways, and being able to step out in that love and act as a part of what that love is, is super compelling to me.

Jeff: yeah,

Brent: Even, even if it's, even if what they're doing. And in this case, Mira, like rallying the, the, the Rangers to go off on a weird, you know, rescue mission and they're all like, wait, we're going where?

Um, even if it's that like, like her reasoning for doing so, like I, I find so much of this really, really compelling, um, what is it we've been saying, I think in a couple episodes, Jeff, this might be an episode where the, the parts are greater than the sum.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: You know what I mean? And that, that's, that's I think where I'm gonna stay with it.

I think the parts of this episode are greater than the whole,

Jeff: cuz there were very different episodes in this episode, right? There was the Jaar and Marcus thing. That was its own fun little epi, you know, episode in and of itself. There was Thelen going through her stuff. That was an episode. Then there was the Jaar and Lando thing. That was an episode.

And then you had the, the Sheridan and Lorian stuff like these were not connected,

Brent: Hey, the fellowship is broken up and they're all doing their own thing right

Jeff: Uhhuh, ,yeah. That, that all ties together. Way up here. It's there, but we're looking at the pieces

right now.

Brent: Mm-hmm. . And you know what? I would be really, okay, Jeff, if we never got everybody back on Babbel on five and we go, okay, what's Tuesday? Like on Babbel on five right now?

Jeff: Now?

Brent: I'm okay to not have that episode because I don't, I don't think you can have that episode.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. Can't go back. Can't go back again. I don't see Weller and I don't see where, like, I don't see Londo and Jaar on Babylon five. You know what I mean? Like, I, like I said, I don't see Jaar there, but th they can't ever be together cuz th this has a very natural progression. And we've seen the end of this where, I mean, Kars gonna go through hell.

Londo is gonna go through hell having to watch him do this. In fact, what I'm looking forward to is watching their relationship, their relationships, not a strong enough word, their bond, watching their bond grow through the shared trauma of what's going on. Right. They're both so great with the face acting, even through the makeup, and I think that's what we're gonna see a lot of,

Brent: Yeah. Can we,

Jeff: and londo and torment.

Brent: can we give credit to the makeup team, particularly those who worked on the Jaar character

Jeff: Mm,

Brent: to Al to do the makeup in such a way as to allow the facial expressions of Andreas to come through? Because I mean, frankly, through the latex and Star Trek so often we really can't ever see.

Jeff: exactly. I think that we, we think of, of, of him as, uh, TOK, right? Where he is a rolin and that's not a lot, that's not a lot of makeup on there, but it was enough that it was stifling. Like I get more facial emotion and reaction from Andreas COIs under all that garabaldi makeup, or, sorry, all that kar makeup.

It's the hat, it's the the Garabaldi hat that he had there than I ever did as Tom Lock with the Rolin stuff.

Brent: Yeah. Well, Jeff w with that, wh let's talk about Kar. Let's, let's track his storyline and, and kind of get through him. So he goes off on a mission to find Garabaldi.

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: that's, that's what he wants. Why does he wanna go find Garabaldi? Because he is got a cool hat and he wants to get him back, like he's become his buddy, I guess.

Like it's his dear good friend, Mr. Gu Baldy. Oh wait. Wrong

Jeff: I've never, I've never had a friend before who wasn't Narn, he says, and it was just like, that's pretty powerful. Also says a lot about how he sees his relationship with everyone else.

Brent: Yep. Yep. Uh, so he goes off and Marcus is there to not watch his back apparently, like

Jeff: The, there was, okay. First, let me say, I enjoy. This whole thing with them on the planet and the, you know, trying to like, I got this piece of a star Fury. Tell me what it means. Tell me what it means. I enjoyed all of it. Also, it kind of doesn't hold up . So I'm kar the last of Theri. I know I'm wanted, I know I'm a dead man the second I walk off the station.

So what do I do? I go to a planet that is clearly controlled by the sonari cuz they're walking around in their little gold hats and

Brent: which by the way looks goofy as hell. Now I don't, I don't know if the British Red Coats back in the 1700 looked that stupid to the people of their. But these guys looked like these are not intimidating fellas. Not to

Jeff: it. It might have been, it might have been around the time this episode aired. My high school got rid of the, the marching band uniforms that I wore when I went there. , I wonder if they sent 'em down.

Brent: That's what it looked like, Jeff. That's a hundred percent what it looked like.

Jeff: Totally little bit. Yeah. Oh, if it was, I feel bad for him. Those things smell terrible. But, but not only does he, does he go to this to, to the lion's den almost.

But he doesn't even change his clothes. He's wearing like, look, look at me in my spiky ja car coat. Like, hi, this is, this is who I am. And then to fast forward a little bit, when Marcus is like, basically, Hey, I'll take the first watch or whatever. He is like, no, just leave. Like, I got the

Brent: And Marcus leaps. When have you ever seen Marcus just leave that was so outta character for him? Cuz normally he's like, okay, yeah, I'll go. And then what does he do? He like goes and hides up in the rafters

Jeff: exactly. Or just stays. Like, cuz he

was,

Brent: he needs you.

Jeff: he was in that little, like that hut or whatever. He, he'd leave and then just kind of tuck away or something. Yeah. This did not, this whole sequence didn't add up

Brent: but it narratively we needed it because we needed Ja car to get captured to go to Centara Prime.

Jeff: It makes me wonder. Right. It makes me wonder, my question is, did he know this was this, it can't be part of the plan. Right. But was part of his plan to go, like, did he know this was gonna happen somehow?

Brent: no, I don't think so. I don't think

Jeff: Yeah. Cuz cuz that was the first thing he asked. Emperor Carta . He's still looking

for him, but

Brent: Yeah. I, I don't, I don't think it was part of the plan. I, I will say, um, something I never knew that I needed to see, and frankly, I'd be glad to never, ever see it again. Is Jaar brushing his teeth with his finger?

Jeff: yeah. What was that? With his glove on?

Brent: was brushing his teeth, man. That's what he was doing.

I was

Jeff: were there bristles on that glove? Is that

Brent: nope. I think he was just brushing his, I mean, how did they brush teeth back before toothbrushes? They chew on stuff, or, you know,

Jeff: Get the fingers up in

Brent: Yeah, I guess, I guess also, um, when Kar looks at, at Marcus and tells him like he's gonna be offended if he doesn't leave. Um, having seen what I've seen of the Narn, there is nothing scary about the phrase.

There's nothing more inherently dangerous than an offended No, I think I can take you.

Jeff: Yeah, I've seen a lot of you fight and it's not, it's not anything impressive, like No. I mean, you get a group of you together with a gospel singer and Yeah. Yeah. You watch out. There's one of you and you're frankly an old guy.

Brent: right,

Jeff: and I have this really cool, uh,

Brent: And, and yeah, and I'm a badass fighter. Like

Jeff: Right,

Brent: I just took out naroon, like no, no.

Jeff: This was though, this was, I, I, I realized when I was watching this, that this moment, that that bar fight is the, that's why we had to watch that Avalon episode.

It was all that scene where Kar Marcus and King Arthur were fighting the thugs and down below was all to make a natural progression for them to just be the ultimate fighting machine together.

Brent: I, I call false

Jeff: I'm just trying, I'm trying to connect some.to that thing.

Brent: That was no, that, that episode just did not need to exist. That was, Hey, I got 21 ideas. I need one more.

Jeff: right?

Brent: That's all that

Jeff: King Arthur

Brent: That's all that is. Uh, so Ja car gets captured and taken back to, uh, Sonari Prime and the emperor calls for Orlando in the middle of the night. Um, and he rings his teeny tiny little bell,

Jeff: I loved

Brent: little teeny tiny little bell, and he's got his little teeny tiny hair crust.

Uh, which by the way, Londo comes in and, and he's, you know, getting ready and just sweet talking the emperor, and he's like, eh, whatever. But have, had you noticed, uh, Rondo's getting a little gray

Jeff: Yeah,

Brent: around the crest?

Jeff: yeah. He's letting, uh, because like when back around coming of shadows and, and that kind of run through into the second season, up to the fall of night, he was going like dye his hair

Brent: Oh, he was, oh yeah. Hardcore. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeff: he was just for men, you know, at that point. And the, the black jacket and the

Brent: Noir midnight, number 12.

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, what's, what's the highest number you got on this? Let's do that. And now, like, he's kinda letting himself go a little unnatural. All but he, he was so good with Carta, like, and, and, and I felt like because he said something, you know, there, he's like, you were late. And so I'm, you know, but you have a good excuse to I'm not gonna kill you.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: And then he gets up and he is like, I like you. I really like you. And I was like, he does because game, recognized game, he's literally just like you and me. We are gonna hate each other horribly, but we're never gonna be able to touch each other. And like he knows that, you know, I think, oh, it's, it's fun.

Brent: Yeah. Um, so fast forward, they do the whole thing. I don't know if you wanna talk about anything else in that, in that room, but that the, I gotta talk about the conversation between Londo and Ja car back in the cell. Um, did you have anything else from that, from that throne room scene real quick? You want to touch on

Jeff: Not from the throne room scene. Just you said it. I loved the little bell more than I should have, but it was perfect

Brent: right, right. And you already referenced the, the timbers and, and all that sort of stuff. Uh, whi which I noticed lots of that. Um, okay. First of all, o on the floor of Ja car's cell, did you, was there some sort of like pool of blood or bodily fluid, like right in the middle of

Jeff: Something

kinda wet looked. Yeah.

Brent: Or maybe his own excretions or whatever.

Jeff: Well, cuz that's the thing, a little sidetrack there, they never talk about in movies or whatever. Like, yeah, we put 'em in this cell. We left 'em there for six days. Uh, I didn't see a bucket in the scene like, what's, what's going on?

Brent: right. Um, so Lando going through in agonizing detail of what they're going to do to him, talking about cutting him from here to here and piling his organs up if he's still alive or if not, they don't care. And, and, and Kar asks him a real interesting question, does this please you?

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: And Londo goes, no, no.

He goes once long ago. No, not even then. And I thought that was such an interesting. Confession that Londo needed to hear himself say,

Jeff: Yeah.

Brent: you know, like he needed to come. Like, no, that's not ever what I really wanted.

Jeff: It's like I hate you. I want to see you crushed under my boot heel, but also I wanna see you stand up with some dignity and like, I want to, I want to, you know, I want to, pardon, pardon the phrase, this is really insensitive, but I want to beat you like a man, right? I think is where he kinda landed. He doesn't want this,

Brent: yeah. This is, this is not where he was. This is not truly what he wanted. And, and I mean, this really were recalled to me those phrases of, uh, Londo saying, and I forgot how to dance, you know? Or he's in bed with, uh, what, what's, what's the lady he fell in love with

Jeff: Uh, Laira or Aira

Lady? Aira,

Brent: you know, and he is like, you know, it's, it's all about his position.

Everybody wa like, he, he's coming back to that londo.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: And he, and he puts it, he puts it to Kar like, I'm gonna kill him and you're gonna do this. And Kars like, well, you're gonna do this for me. And you. Well, you don't have room to negotiate. Well, neither do you. And yes, we will set Narn free to kill Emperor Carta and make this happen.

But Rona's like, you're gonna have to endure a lot. And I'm gonna have to just sit there and watch. Oh

Jeff: Yeah. It's gonna be, it's gonna be hard. It's gonna be hard for us to watch, I think. But I also think I said it earlier, but I'll say it again. I look forward to the, just the incredible acting that is gonna happen through that. And I, and I do believe that what we saw in War Without End when they finally strangle each other, you know, was where he came out and he greeted him as an old.

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: And asked him to, you know, do this favor for him. They're gonna develop a strong bond through their suffering together.

Brent: I don't think he's gonna be a friend.

Jeff: No.

Brent: No, I, I think that Londo and Kar, at least from what I gathered from watching that future piece, they're still enemies. But you've mentioned there is a bond and there is a mutual respect, and there is a, a, a partnership. But I don't know that it ever actually becomes friendship.

And I'll be interested to see if you are writer, I'm right because I, it'd be cool if it became a friendship. I honestly think it'd be a little cooler if there was always this enmity, always this, this, uh, this beef between em. But there was also still a, a, a mutual respect. And you know who I think of when I think of this, I think of, of Captain Kirk

Jeff: Balance

of Terror right? Yes.

Brent: and the Rolon.

Like we could have been friends except he was just born over there and I was born over here. Like those guys could, could be just the perfect, uh, uh,

Jeff: F frenemies.

Brent: I hate that phrase, but it's exactly the right word. Jeff.

Jeff: It's kind of perfect.

Brent: It's two.

Jeff: It is. But yeah, so I think from here we're gonna see, I think we're gonna see a version of Kar going through the stations of the cross. And if people aren't familiar, stations of the cross is something that Catholics celebrate during the season of Lent leading up to year, uh, to, to Easter. And it's where it's 14, there are 14 stations where essentially you go through and pray through the steps that Jesus went through from being condemned to death, to discouraging of the pillar and having to carry his cross all the way to his, to his death in there.

And so,

Brent: No, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Finish what you're saying.

Jeff: I was just gonna dive into kind of what some of those things are. So we're gonna, we're gonna see him. We saw him condemned at death. Basically. We saw him carry his cross. We're gonna see him fall. We're gonna see him meet, uh, someone that's important to him. We're gonna see someone come and help him.

Uh, we're gonna see him fall again and we're gonna see him again, meet other people that matter. But then they're, we're gonna see basically the, the end of him where he's gonna, they're going to divide up his, his, his clothes cast lots for all of his belongings. And then they're gonna get ready to kill him.

And that's when Lao's gonna give the go ahead, woo. And flip the whole thing on its head.

Brent: Yeah. Or what if they actually quote unquote, kill him and Kar somehow, somehow resurrects or

Jeff: So, I, I, I didn't wanna say it cuz it's like, it, it, it's so on the, on the nose right now that like, I feel like that would be easy to do. You know what I mean? Like that's the easy way to do it and I kind of hope it doesn't happen that

Brent: Well, I mean, because we. We'll talk about this more in just a moment, but did we kind of see Sheridan just resurrects from the dead?

Jeff: I think we did.

Brent: I mean, did we just establish that that happens in this world and in this universe? We'll talk about that, Jeff. I need you to make me a promise though.

Jeff: I'll do my

Brent: Okay. You are far more familiar with the stations of the cross than I am.

Uh, I'm, I'm not Catholic. I wasn't born and raised in that. Um, but I've always, you know, it certainly is a background for me, uh, on the, the more Protestant side. I would love for you to track that story and just point it out in future episodes as we go. So this is where this was, and this is where this was, and this is where that piece was.

And see if you are right cuz you, I mean, you could be completely wrong and that could not be what Kar goes through at all. But I would, I, there's a piece of me that would love for that metaphor to exist here. And if it is, I would love for you to point it out.

Jeff: Cool. I am on, I'm, I am on the case.

Brent: There you go. Um, so that's all I had on Ja Lando.

Jeff: Yeah, that's about what I had as well. Let me just make sure.

Yeah. Do you wanna talk about, uh, Dalen

Brent: talk about Dylann real quick. I had two notes on her. Uh, one, so she's fasting over her guilt.

Jeff: there you go.

Brent: Okay. She feels really guilty so she can't eat. Uh,

Jeff: I had a hard time with the entire Dalen thing.

Brent: yeah.

Jeff: I, I, I, I don't know, I forget which episode it was last season. It was the one where they were trying to like, locate the pattern of attack with the shadows. Uh, she and Sheridan were, and I was just like, God, she's, she's just fallen into kind of that traditional female gender stereotype role of a relationship and in a lot of ways.

And I, and I feel like this was like a further slip away from her. Just I get. That when someone you love, when you lose someone you love, there's a period where you're blaming yourself. And I can, and I can get for her that there's some, there's some real one-to-one relationship on I did this, that led to this kind of stuff.

Also, I feel like we spent the better part of three seasons establishing how wise she was. Like I remember back in the first season when we would have entire Delta conversations based on two lines that she said like she was this very wi,

don't hear me say, ah, you move through trauma and whatever. It's not what I'm saying, but I feel like she has more wisdom than to basically resign herself to death because she's beaten herself up over this. It just didn't, I don't think it fit her character.

Brent: Yeah. I, I. I hear everything you're saying, but I would come back at you with saying it action might be one of the most human things she could do because people do stupid stuff for love. People do stuff for, for love, for guilt, that is way outside the norm of who they tend to be. Um, uh, and, and that could also go positive as well.

People do a whole lot of real positive stuff at for the sake of love. Um, I would also say that, that she possibly, probably has never really experienced these feelings before and she's trying to deal with them for the first time. And just because she's wise now she's gotta figure out how does that work within

Jeff: like a human emotional

Brent: yeah.

How does, how does she deal with that? So, um, I, I didn't mind that so much. I, and you talk about the gender stereotype that she falls into. Help me process this. Because there's a piece of me that goes, I hear what you're saying. Stereotypes exist for a reason though. Right. And Dylan, Dylan is female.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: You know, I know. She was, she was meant to be androgynous. You guys can save the comments. We know. But she is female and she is meant to be female.

So to, to fall into, uh, certain stereotypes that are, that are of the female sex. Like, I don't know that that's inherently a bad thing. Does that, you know, like, I don't, and I don't think it puts her in the weak category or anything of that nature. It, it just, uh

Jeff: I think it just doesn't jive with her character necessarily, to, to, and it's not even being the female stereotype, to me, it's doesn't jive with her character to fall into a stereotype. Like, especially in terms of a relationship. Like, like, oh, I'm gonna play this role in the relationship. You are sati, you are going to be the, the head of the gray council and you're just gonna fall into a traditional relationship role all of a sudden.

Brent: Right.

Jeff: That's the piece that kind of doesn't check for

Brent: Well, but then she gets all pissed off when she realizes, you know, what's what. She gets empowered, she sees the video and like, this is what it was. And, and now I'm gonna act to that. And I, I actually really kind of dug it like she's going to find herself the best parts of herself and she goes and calls all the Rangers together.

Not all, but all the ones that are on the station anyway, uh, calls the Rangers together, which by the way, I always forget that the Rangers are a thousand years old because in my mind it's really something that Sinclair created when he got sent to Men Bar.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: And that, that it's actually a new organization, that it's not this big old organization.

In my mind, that's how it

Jeff: technically it is something Sinclair started when he got sent to Minbar just a different

Brent: I understand that you're, you're absolutely right. Um, but she rallies them and she's like, we're gonna go do this. And Jeff, I was curious in her sort of vision, casting, rallying speech to her folks of saying, this is the plan and this is where we're gonna go do, how did, what did you make of that? From a leadership standpoint?

Jeff: I had to check myself a couple times, cuz at first I was just like, I, I would've outed four sentences into what she was saying to been like, oh, where's the restroom? I gotta, yikes, lemme leave my pen right here. This, this lady's out of her mind. But then I had to remind myself, this was a team of Rangers, people who've been through intense training and have done things.

We live for the one, we die for the one, right. That's the culture of the Rangers. So she spoke to them as individuals. She spoke to their culture as rangers. I thought it was an incredible, incredible rallying cry. Once I reminded myself of who she was talking to,

Brent: She is the one,

Jeff: she is

Brent: they live for her and they die for her. They're gonna go do it like it or not. Uh, was she abusing her position?

Jeff: I think so. And, and, and the, and so the note I actually have here is, this is the first time I've truly felt the loss of old Kosh because I feel like Old Kosh and her, the scene would've been different, where she's like, I'm going to get the Rangers and we're gonna this, and he would just be like, no,

Brent: right?

Jeff: and ex, you know, and, and basically just begged her off for the whole thing.

This isn't the way to go. This isn't the right thing. Sheridan has opened an unexpected door. You need to stop cuz this, I don't think, in fact, I have predictions for the next episode, but I don't think this is gonna go well. This, this whole attack.

Brent: So, You mentioned Kosh and you mentioned what KA is thinking and what Kosh is like. I don't think this is gonna go well. We're gonna stop. We're gonna do this. Kas has brought up a whole lot in the conversation between Sheridan and Lori

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: and Lori's like, yo, look, Kosh was not, he's clinging to life and he shouldn't be.

Um, this whole conversation, are you okay transitioning to this?

Jeff: Yeah. I just, the only, I had a couple super quick final thoughts and it's was really on Franklin. I mentioned, I had some notes and I just, I really want to bang this on the door for people. Old Franklin, old Franklin would've tried to talk her down when he came in and was like, look, like you really should eat.

You're not just a minbar anymore. You've got human stuff as well. Old Franklin would've Dr. He would've done something. He would've found a way to get her food. Instead, he handed her to the facts. And then he walked away. And then later when he was going through Sheridan's skier, he handed her the data crystal and he walked away.

He's just like, I'm just gonna show you what you already know and let you put these pieces together. I, I am really impressed with this step, uh, this step for, for Dr. Franklin. And I had a, an acting thought as well, the video. And I, and I, I'm a hundred percent sure you're gonna talk about the line from the video of Sheridan when you do your closing thoughts.

Uh, cuz it was amazing, right? If you're, uh, find yourself falling off a cliff, might as well try and fly. Whoa, so good. When Bruce Box Lightner was recording that, that log right? I wanna know, was Mira Furland, was he looking at her? Like, was she in the room when he did that or did he have a picture of someone in his personal life?

Like, did he have a picture of Melissa Gilbert up or maybe a younger sweetheart from before or something? Cuz. . It was so real when he like that was so well done. And that's a trick I've used in voice acting where I'll have a picture of someone and I'll look at that and and speak to it. And I'm curious if he did something, did something similar, cuz it was just, that was a really, really well done scene.

Brent: So my understanding of how they film those scenes where people are on screen, um, I know you and I have often said, well, you and I have often said that like, oh, you can tell that that's filmed off somewhere in a corner, and you've just got like a director like Bos Babas bas go. My understanding is the way they, they actually filmed that is they had these guys on set over here.

They had that person in a set over there, and they actually were talking back and

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: and the pause was just however long it took to transmit. And for that person to hear and see, it's kinda like what you see on a newscast, sometimes that big awkward pause. So, um, I don't, I don't know. But I think that just goes to talk about how great of an actor Bruce Bock Lightner is.

Um, can I just say that it was very clear to me that he recorded that particular uh, uh, piece now in season four with whatever this new hairstyle is that he has going on and not back in season three when it supposedly was recorded.

Jeff: Yes. It's very clear,

Brent: I mean, this, this would be like, uh, I don't know. Uh, Jonathan Frakes recording a bit from season one, but he still has the beard.

Jeff: right? All of a sudden,

Brent: quite work. You know,

Jeff: that's three.

Brent: I'm okay with

Jeff: You're out. Well, let's talk about Sheridan and Lorian.

Brent: Yeah. So I, at the risk of going through every line by line, by line, um, a couple of things jump. One, there's this big light thing that is, has two arms attaching into Sheridan, and he is asked two questions again and again.

Who are you and what do you want? Who are you and what do you want? Who are you and what do you want? Now, what do you want? Should ring a big old freaking line to all of us who've been watching Babylon five for this amount of time.

Jeff: with who are you at this point?

Brent: Now, where is the, who are you? Could do we hear the Volans say that quite a bit?

Jeff: Sebastian. Uh, and comes the inquisitor.

Brent: Oh yeah.

Jeff: and then we, and then Lian busted that out at the end of the last episode where that's

Brent: Oh, well, sure he did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, you know, Jeff, I had a theory a long time ago that the volans and shadows were the same thing, two sides of the same coin, light and dark, a yin and a yang. Uh uh, that's type of deal. And I kind of pushed that off to the side. I want to bring that. I think I might be right and there, so I compare it in my recap, Lian to being God. Now, I don't think that lorian is the, like when you think of the idea that the Judeo-Christian idea of God, who is this omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being. I don't think that's what Lian is. But this idea of like, I am the first one.

I am the un caused first. Cause I, all of these are my children and I, I hate to see them fighting. And for whatever reason, the shadows keep come, come trying to come get me. And there's this hole. And Jeff, I've gotta ask, what is this hole? Where are we? Are we actually on Zaha Doom? Is this a portal somewhere else?

Are we going into a different realm? What is this even a construct of Sheridan's mind and not something that is real? Where the freak are we? But yet, uh, what this made me think of, Is, uh, when you, when you go back to the, to the early days of the Bible, when it talks about the creation of man and woman and it, and it says that, that God made them male and female and he, he gave them them both attributes of him.

And there are some attributes that went to men and there are some attributes that went meant to women. And yes, we tend to use the male pronoun in reference to God, but the idea that that God has all of these attributes together in one, and it's not split the idea that Lorian can do the what do you want and who are you?

And he, and he says at one point you've gotta be able to say yes to both. You've gotta be able to make peace with both, not just one or the other. And he calls out Kosh

Jeff: Uh huh

Brent: for saying, look, you are not even doing it all the way, right? Kosh, you big angel out there, you got angels and demons. That's the shadows are the demons.

You got the angels. Angels and demons are supposed to be of the same ilk. Right. Uh, I think shadow, I'm back on the volans and shadows are the same thing, just of two sides of the same coin, uh, going at it from two different ways.

Jeff: Yeah, I, I totally agree. I think so. I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive pretty deep here. So

Brent: Please do.

Jeff: put the face mask on or whatever so you can continue breathing oxygen. So threes, threes are a big thing in Babylon. Five, right? There's, uh, the menari, all the stuff we had Atheros really breaking it down. There are three ones, all the stuff, there were three questions that Lian kept asking.

He was asking, who are you? What do you want? And why are you here?

Brent: Yeah.

Jeff: So those were the three. He added another one. So you have the Volans who took the, who are you, you have the shadows, who took, what do you want? And he, somewhere, somewhere were other first ones or someone else who had the, why are you here?

He's the last one that we know of holding onto that. So when I think three, because I'm Catholic and because I've been watching Babylon five, and I know j m s is not afraid to write in this vein. Three is a really big number, right? And so the gospel, according to John, begins with this kind of breakdown of what is the basis for the Trinity that starts, it says in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God.

And the word was God. He was with God in the beginning. And through him all things were made. Nothing came into being except through him. So basically God and the word are the same now in the Bible and in Catholic tradition, we go on to know that the word becomes the burning bush for Moses, and then the word becomes flesh in Jesus, and all this comes together through the spirit.

I think that Lorian is the first, the first one, but I think he was part of a group, like I think he's like maybe the last of the first ones that were, these are our angels. So we have whatever deity, God that

exists, and then he created through the word, through himself, he created angels. Like that's stuff that's there, you know, and there's angels going.

Then there's the tradition that Lucifer says, I'm the most beautiful of all, which led to the fallen angels and Satan and the Devils, or Satan, depending on how you say it.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: So he created. These Lian people and they went and made things happen and they had other like hierarchies of things that were, we look at as angels, the Cher of them, the Serafim and all those things.

And this, they just happened to call 'em Vons and Shadows. Probably used to call 'em, you know, tiki gods and Party first ones and whatever. And some went away and did their thing. These two split and went in different places. I think that Lorian Lorian is meant at the, the higher level to represent the message of whatever the God, the universe, right?

It's the universe in Babylon. Five is God made flesh to bring the three. Who are you? What do you want? Why are you here together into one? That one is gonna be Sheridan. That was a really, that was, I went a lot of places

Brent: I love every bit

Jeff: that

Brent: that. Um, Yeah, and at the risk of diving too far into the theology of all of it and making those comparisons, and that's probably a whole different podcast in and of itself. Uh, but I, I love the idea that Lian is a representative of the Trinity. Uh, I, I would, you said maybe he's the last of one.

Uh, listen, Jeff with the Trinity, only one of the three members of the Trinity was in the form of human to be seen and interacted with on the physical plane. So maybe not the last one, but just he was the one of that

Jeff: one and that one in, in the, in, in Catholicism. And again, the Catholic tradition was the word. Well, when you say the word of the Lord, that's Jesus. Right? And so that's, and in the word of the universe is Lian.

Brent: And I, you know, and I didn't even think about the idea that, that there are different types of angels that are out there with the Cher them and the sem. And when we talk about the, the ancient ones, there was the first ones and then the ancient ones that, those ancient ones that existed before would be angels and demons.

And, and they have their deal. And then, uh, the, the, the people are created and they come into it. Now you're talking about the Minbar and the Na and the Earthlings and the Sonari and all of, you know, uh, like all of that tracks. And, and it seems like that's a lot of where j m s is, is kind of going and, and you look at the Lord of the Ring stuff.

Okay, let's go with that. I don't know that there is a particular, uh, God figure in Lord of the Rings, but you definitely have, um, You, you have the elves and then you have, uh, Saron and the Orks and what's going on there? The Wizards. Oh, you have the wizards that, that are getting involved in the whole thing.

And then you come down the peg a little bit, and then you've got the men and the men of Rohan and the, you know, the, the fights that they're having amongst themselves, the dwarves and the, the, the other elves I guess in, in the Hobbits. And, you know, it, it, that all tracks and makes sense from a narrative and a story point. So my question is this, I've gotta ask this question. What is the nature of Zaha Doom? Is Zaha doom Heaven? Is it, is it limbo? Is it, you know,

Jeff: he described about,

being in between, right. He, he, he very eloquently. It's between the tick and the talk, right? The tick being life and the talk being death. And that was with his big, creepy fingers as he literally waved his hands back and forth with the tick and the talk. It was a very poetic way of just saying, this is the in between place.

Back to Franklin's or Franklin, back to Sheridan's vision. I think that Lorian is the man in between that Kosh was pointing him to like, Hey, I've been here, you're gonna go there and you're gonna do better than I did. So, you know, there's the, the man in between. But I think that this is limbo. It, it's

the concept of heaven, the concept of hell. Those are Christian thoughts. And there are some other religions within that, you know, Islam, Ando that care. But, you know, for, for JU Judaism, that's not a thing, you know, for Hinduism, that's not necessarily a thing for, you know, other ones. So, I mean that we, we think in terms of heaven and hell, but that's a super Western ide, you know, ideology that exists.

It makes a lot of sense to believe that if the universe is the deity, essentially, well then there's the in between. Place that exists. And I think Zaha Doom is the nexus, the doorway between those places. And that's where he's sitting between the tick and the talk.

Brent: yeah. Because he and, and he says the, the shadows continually come back. That's, they're, they're drawn back. They don't live here. They're just drawn back here, and they think somehow it's respectful to be, to be coming back. And I guess they gotta get knocked down every once in a

Jeff: That was powerful to me. It made me think of Jerusalem is what it made me think of. Right. So you've got the, you got the strong Jewish presence, the waning Christian presence, and then the, the, the is the Muslim presence in there. And so they, they go there out of respect. Right out. But they've forgotten because that's one of the most war torn, you know what I mean?

It's like, it's con, there's constant battle. It's unsafe, there's war. And it's like, that's not, it's not the point. It's not the point of this place. Now I could see Lori and too, and they come back like you, you don't even know what you're doing anymore. You're just here because you've been doing it for a million years.

which I think also describes a lot of religious tradition.

Brent: Here you go. So, uh, it's pretty clear. Lian caught Sheridan.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: He says that, uh, Sheridan has no pulse in this place.

Jeff: Yeah. That was a cool breakdown. Shouldn't you be hungry? Don't you have a pulse?

Brent: None of that stuff. Um, and he gets to spot and, and, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll talk more about this, but he says, you know, y you're clinging to life. You have a VO on inside.

You're both clinging to life. You gotta let go. And Sheridan's like, I can't let go. I can't let go. You gotta let go. It reminded me of yet another Bible verse. He who had clinging to his life will lose it.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: You must let it go to save it. Like there, there was, there was that piece, but you have to lay down your burden and surrender yourself to the talk. You're not embracing life, you're fleeing death. So you're caught in between. He says, and he says, and that's not what I love this. That's not what your friends need. They need you to be you, not somebody who is scared to be you. You need to just be able to be so that you can do what you gotta do, and your friends can have the you that you need.

You know? And then he, he asked Sheridan to do basically a big trust fall into deaths, arms,

Jeff: Yep.

Brent: you know?

Jeff: It was great how he said it though, and it really rang a bell for me cuz he talked about, uh, it's easy to find something worth dying for, find something worth living

for.

Brent: I feel like I heard that in a Rocky movie once.

Jeff: You actually heard it in season one of Babylon five when I forget the episode, but Sinclair did some wild whatever thing as he often did, and Garabaldi came into his quarters afterwards and he is like, dude, you're looking for a reason to die all the time.

You need to go find a reason to live. Can't remember which episode it was in, but like beat for beat that happened. It was one of those things we, I still ask. Right. You know, what was a Sinclair ne needed thing and I wonder if there's was a through line to this for that.

Brent: So Sheridan was the first one to make it this far.

Jeff: Yeah. I'm not sure what that means exactly.

Brent: How many others have tried, have any others tried? Why? What, what is it special about Sheridan? Is there something, because Kosh was inside of him that he could make it through

Jeff: He's that,

amalgam of human and VLAN or something.

Brent: did, uh, did Lian just let all the other people fall and go splat, or like, like what?

I, I don't

Jeff: many people are going to Zaha Doom and jumping down the LAC pit? Like is that , is that a pilgrimage thing they're

Brent: Do the shadows try to jump down and he like whooosh them back out, like, I don't know.

Jeff: I think they are. I think, I think that's part of why that hole exists. I still believe like they're like doing some archeological dig where they think they can physically get back to Lori and or

whatever.

Brent: tower of babbel.

Jeff: Mm-hmm. . Exactly. Yep. Because, because it's in instead of up and so I think they're, that's gonna come up, I think. Pretty sense. That's one of my season four predictions. It's growing.

Brent: So, Jeff, I, I, I sense that we're getting very close to our, our Delta Fury talk. Before we get there, we have to talk about Gu Baldi and what's going on with Gu Baldi real quick. Um

Jeff: get there, before we get there, so I, I want, I want to touch on, hold on, let me give myself a clean one really quick. I want to touch on some of the prophecies that Major Barrett gave to Londo, cuz I think, I think we spelled one out.

Brent: Okay.

Jeff: So Lian, when he's talking to Sheridan says, tells him to step into the abyss before he starts embracing death and everything goes dark for him in war without.

End part one. Rondo's first line to Sheridan as he wakes up, is welcome back from the abyss. I think Sheridan is the one who is already dead. He's already died, and this will be Rondo's last chance. And that's why between that moment where he says, welcome back from the abyss, and he goes off and has his first kiss with Dalen and then comes back is when he is like, this is my last chance.

I have to let you go. And then I have to, I have to give up what's most important to me and let Jaar kill me.

Brent: Hmm.

Jeff: So maybe pencil mark on

Brent: So, because the prophecy said, don't kill the one who is already dead.

Jeff: Mm-hmm.

Brent: And if, if Sheridan is the one who is already dead, don't kill him. Let him go. Interesting, interesting. And that would be a moment of redemption for you. Okay.

Jeff: right? Yep. That's his last moment. And then it was his final moment, of course, is asking Jakarta to do him in.

Brent: Yep. Hmm. Good

Jeff: Kara Baldy.

Brent: Yeah. So the whole episode is titled Whatever Happened to Mr and in a Minute and 40 seconds, um, he was trapped in a cyco cell.

Jeff: dude, that was an intense a hundred seconds. The, the beats, the language, the editing, the room, the set, like everything That was super intense. I.

Brent: I don't get this whole piece, like I, I'm, I'm kind of upset with this whole thing right now because Sheridan told Garabaldi, I've got something I need you to do. Gu Baldy gets in a star here. How often have we seen Gar Baldy in a star theory in this?

Jeff: A couple times,

Not many.

Brent: Right. Uh, Garabaldi goes out in a star fury. He, in my, the way I read it, he clearly allowed himself to either be captured by a shadow ship or he, like secretly landed on one and was hitching a ride, was a stowaway.

I'm not sure which way it went. And it, and my thought he was, that guy was gonna take him back to m or something and, and he was, or whatever's gonna happen. But no, that doesn't work. Now he's trapped in a Cycore room with no ceiling doors or walls, like, or he has walls. I guess just no ceiling or doors, like No, no, uh, no way out is what I'm saying.

There's just no way out. And I'm like, and this whole episode was how whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi? Like, that's it.

Jeff: Yeah. We know

nothing

Brent: What? I don't

Jeff: because this is, I'm, I'm not convinced it's really Cyco that did it either, because if it was Cyco, why would they need him to tell him anything? They just read his mind, pull it out of him. Part of me thinks it might be, um, might be maybe he was wherever he was and then Ster showed up and be like, that's ster with the mask and Boo boo pew.

He shot his way through, did a, he's doing a big rescue effort for Garabaldi

Brent: Oh, so this is best to come to Rescue Garabaldi

Jeff: Uh huh. Yeah, maybe. And it's not even a, like they'll find out it's some smugglers or some it's interplanetary expeditions, you know, trying to do something with them or

Brent: But what was it that Sheridan wanted him to go do, and why did he put him in that spot in the whole first place? Like, I don't understand

Jeff: It doesn't, I have no idea yet, but I, I also, I, I am of the opinion that he was not expecting that shadow to come and take him.

Brent: that. That was the, the whole plane went awry when that

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. But I don't, I don't, but I don't know could, it could go either way. But we'll find out right here next week, , as I just jumped, because really that is, that is the thing. But I do think it's time right now that we, we've hit that point of this conversation. Yeah. We're gonna boil this all down.

We're gonna see if this episode has any deep morals to it. Messages. Maybe it's holding up a mirror to society or giving us. Beautiful. Hope that will be better in the future. , you're gonna do that, Brent, by rating this on an ep. Uh, you're gonna do this, Brent, by rating this episode on a scale of zero to five delta theories as to how strong the message is and just how Babylon five it was delivered.

Brent: So Jeff, uh, you mentioned earlier, super cool line that Sheridan gives us by his dad. When you're falling off a cliff, you might as well try to fly. I'm not gonna touch that one.

Jeff: Oh,

Brent: That was, that was a cool line that your dad just used to tell you as as a kid. If you wanna touch on that and go off on it, go for it.

Jeff: hey, there's all of

Brent: Maybe not good advice. Do what now?

Jeff: that's it. That's all of it. What he said. That's the thing. That's the lesson. Go for

Brent: right. Now I'm gonna go to something that actually we've touched on a handful of times and I'm a little surprised to see it continue to come back up throughout the course of Babel on five, except this is JM S's thing and he keeps writing it and it really, to me comes down to the conversation between, between Sheridan and Lorian and it's super in your face.

In this episode, he says this, the people in your life, I'm sorry, let me back up. He says this, your friends need what you can be when you are no longer. When you know who you are and why you are and what you want, when you're no longer looking for reasons to live, but can simply be Jeff, the people in your life need you to be you. They need you to be at your best.

You're never gonna be your best if you're circling the wagons all the time around yourself. You're never gonna be your best if you don't know who you are. You'll never be your best if you're always trying to be something else. I think it is the nature of people, possibly men, but I think really just sort of people.

We all, we have a, a continual search for signific. We look for it in our jobs, in our careers, you look for it in your paycheck, you look for it in what you can provide for your family. You look for it in your influence and your power and, and, and these like, that's where you're looking for significance.

For who you are. To define who you are. Those things never satisfy. Those things are never who you are. My son plays chess and not very well. He constantly loses. You wanna know why he constantly loses? Because he spends his time positioning his p his because he spends his time positioning his pieces to protect his king. He is not trying to go out and attack and win. He's just trying to not. And you can't win that way. I think it's the same thing in life. If you spend your life not knowing who you are, you can't be you. You just have to be you As simple as that. And that's what the people around you need to be. Folks out there who've been listening for a while may know I am a stay-at-home dad. I'm a stay-at-home dad who is a homeschooling father. tell you what, in my line of work, 99.8% of the people out there are moms, not dads. I go to conferences, I get emails all the time. Hey moms. Hey moms. How are you moms? I gotta tell you, when I left the workforce, the outside workforce and came home, uh, as a stay-at-home dad and began homeschool. I struggled a lot with my identity and who I was and where my value was for my family. And let me tell you, I wasn't the best dad I could be during that time. I was not the best husband I could be at that time because I was constantly worried about who I was.

I didn't know who I was because my career was not there for me anymore. The paycheck was not there for me anymore. I, I questioned what, what good am I adding to my family dynamic here? Sure, I could, I could reason it away, but I didn't know it in my heart. I didn't know it in the core of who I was. It took a long time, but I eventually learned that my value to my family laid in me being me, just me.

Like, that's what my kids need. They just need their dad. That's what my wife needs. She just needs a husband. She doesn't, she doesn't need somebody to come in and fix all of her stuff. She just needs a partner, someone to be there, you know, someone to just love. Frankly, I also needed that. I needed to not be worried about a career and a title and that sort of identity. I have to tell you, when I realized that my value never laid in my job, it never laid in my paycheck, it never laid in a title. It never laid in position. It never laid in power, but it just laid in my personhood for my family.

Living in that place now, acting out of that place, I can do anything I need to. I walk proudly and confidently into any situation. I'm not afraid to try new things. I'm not afraid to put myself out there because the truth is, here's what I know, Jeff. If I fail, what does that change about who I am as a person? Absolutely nothing. does not phase me at all because of who I am, and that's my kid's father. That's my wife's husband. That's where my value is, is in my personhood. And honestly, even if, God forbid, those two things were taken away from me, I am still me. My value is still me and the people around me who are left need me. That's how I am the most value to my family. Lorian said to Sheridan, your friends. The world, the galaxy needs you to be you folks. We need you to be you. One last story, and I'll close this out. I remember some years ago I was a camp counselor, Jeff, with a bunch of kids. Now this camp had a zip line on it.

I've never done a zip line. And, uh, uh, some people I'm a, I'm a rather larger guy. Weight limits are a thing I have to be aware of. Me and plastic chairs are not best friends. Let me tell you. I go through some of 'em wicker seats. Mm-hmm. not doing it. Uh, zip lines, no. Mm-hmm. Because I ain't need that thing to break on me.

I remember the kids bug me, oh, come do it. Come do. And I, I lie. And I'd be like, oh, I've done it before. It's not that big of a, I don't really like it. I, I'll be okay. I'll be okay. Finally, I shot my mouth off and say, okay, fine. Listen, if they have a harness that fits me, I'll go do it. Didn't believe for a second they had a harness that fit me well, guess what?

They had a harness that fit me. Dang it. And I got up there and I, I'm talking to the camp director. I, this became a big deal. Britt's gonna go down the Zipline, Britt's gonna go down the zip line. Everybody in the camp do it. I'm like, oh my God, what are you guys doing? He's like, he looked at me one day, he's like, he's like, you're gonna be fine.

I was like, what do you mean? He said, those two carabiner hooks, they're gonna, those things test for over 5,000 pounds. You're not 5,000 pounds, are you? No. He's like, that harness isn't gonna rip. He's like, we test, we test that thing. By throwing a car down at a 10,000 pound car doesn't phase it. You're not gonna hurt this thing.

It's not gonna break on you. Did I believe that? No. I was like, I remember being on the edge of that platform. I'm up there, I'm strapped in, I'm hooked in people. I mean, they had video camera crews out there. Like the camp just did a, like this whole thing. It was, it was, it was kind of weird, but it was kind of cool at the same time.

And I just, and I'm just sitting up there and I remember having this thought. So what happens if. This thing snaps and I fall. I wasn't scared of dying. You know what? I was more scared of breaking my neck and being a paraplegic for the rest of my life. That's what I was really scared of. And, and I had this thought sitting there.

Let's say it happens. What does that change about who I am as a person? And the answer was nothing. Because my value doesn't lie in my ability to walk or the things I can do. My value lies in my, in me being me. And with that knowledge and that comfort and that security, that was a breakthrough moment for me.

I was able to go down that zip line. And you know what? I went down that thing like Superman, because turns out, uh, I'm top heavy. And where they put the harness, like it was just below my center of gravity. So I flipped upside down , and I heard all that down. But it, hey, it held the line, held the zip line held. Point being, Sheridan had to let go of these things he was clinging to in order to find his real life, in order to be the person everybody else needed to be. And I'll say it one more time. J m s has said it so many times throughout the series of Babylon five, and I'll say it here folks, it's not in what you do or what you bring to the table, it's in you. And that's what people need you to be. And that's frankly what you need you to be. Jeff, to me, this is a five. You couldn't have done this in Star Trek. This is, this is a story that was uniquely Babylon. Five. This is a five Delta Fury episode to me.

Jeff: Yeah, I can't argue. I totally agree. This was so powerful and it was funny too. I like how you started the whole thing with this. How many times have we brought this up? I mean, the concept, I call it the be do, have concept, right? And I mean we wait. So many times we've talked through this like this is the message of Babylon five, be you, the you, you're meant to be.

And I think when I think about that, it becomes really powerful. When we look at some of these people, I look at Dalen for example. There's Dalen, the Menari, right? Is that who she was meant to be? Clearly? No. She was meant to be Dalen. The one who is half minbar, half human. Sinclair, you could even say, was he really Sinclair or is he actually Ben Valin all along and just needed to come to a place where he saw that and could accept that.

What is Sheridan gonna be when he comes back? Right. I think, I think that Sheridan has spent a lot of his life trying to be. A good son to his dad and his mom trying to be a conspiracy theorist for one episode, trying to be a good soldier,

Brent: Right.

Jeff: know, trying to be a good soldier. Then trying to, you know, trying to be these things.

And I think face-to-face with, with death, right? Being trapped between the tick and the talk. He finally knows for the first time who John Sheridan really is. And I think when he comes back, it's not gonna be business as usual with him. And I think it's gonna be really exciting and really cool.

Brent: Well, Jeff, you know we are here creating the absolute 100% completely accurate definitive ranking of the fourth season of Babylon. Five. Jeff, it falls on you this week, my friend. Where are you? Placing whatever happened to Mr. Guru Baldi. Now we only have one episode outside of this one. This is only episode number two last week's episode.

Jeff: The

Hour of The

Brent: of the wool is currently sitting at number one. Jeff, this is on you. This. Does whatever happen to Mr. Guerra Baldy top the hour of the wolf and knock it out of the top spot? Or does Hour of the Wolf remain the king of season four so far?

Jeff: Hour of the Wolf was such a fantastic episode. It's my favorite season opener to date, right? It's only one that can unseed it and maybe it will change our mind on a second watch through. But it was so good in so many ways and we talked about that last week. This episode had so much going for it. We just talked about it's a five Delta Fury episode.

Fantastic. It was also a little disjointed. Had a lot of weird different stories that were being told that weren't maybe necessarily mechanically done, um, in a way that was super cohesive.

Brent: Mm-hmm.

Jeff: But you know what we got in this episode? We got Lando and Kar. And we got Londo going through a monologue that it, it's been two days since I last watched this episode.

It is still haunting me the way he delivered that line. Especially when he is like, they'll cut you from here to here. And he went into that. Oh my God. Like the places that Peter Jik had to go in his mind and his psyche to be able to deliver that. It's, it, it's horrifying to think about that. That could, that's one of those scenes they got done.

They got done recording right and shooting. He walked out the door and then he probably went and threw up or passed out , you know, or cried in a ball in the corner somewhere. It was so powerful. Brent, this is the new number one episode of season four.

Brent: Cannot disagree, uh, whatsoever.

Jeff: That's it for whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi next week. We are watching the summoning for the first time. Now, we've never seen these episodes before. We haven't read, uh, any recaps or synopsis. We haven't looked at thumbnails or anything. We just know the title of the episode and the game we love to play's.

Guessing what it's gonna be about based on title alone. Brent, what do you think the summoning is going to be about?

Brent: The summoning, huh? Okay. I'm going with Sheridan. I, I think we've got this, we're on the Sheridan train right now. Um, I think this one focuses on Sheridan, at least the summoning aspect. I, I still, I still kind of feel like there's a little bit of the. The, the breaking of the fellowship and we're following all the different stories.

Like there's gonna be Lando, now it's Lando and Kar and maybe veers over here, and we've got, uh, uh, delin and the, the Rangers heading out over this way. And you've got Sheridan and Lori and hanging out over here and Garabaldi is doing whatever. We'll figure that out soon too. Uh, but I, I think the summoning is gonna focus on Sheridan and somehow he is going to be summoning the power of the ancients to himself as he, as he seems to have let go.

He's found his reason to live, not his reason to not die. And, and, uh, he, he's gonna like, I think Sheridan's about to level up

Jeff: Okay.

Brent: it's, there's a reason he's the only one to ever make it down here. And he, and like, I'm not saying he's gonna achieve God's status or he's ascending or anything like that.

Jeff: No Jason Ironheart

Brent: No, no, but he is leveling up in whatever that means. And, and, and I, or, or it's the other way. He's gonna be summoned by a collective of the ancient ones. You know, they, they, they didn't die, they just went out beyond the rim. Right. So maybe he's gonna be summoned beyond the rim to, to, to discuss something.

Maybe something along those lines Think like, uh, um, uh, Jim in troll hunters getting summoned to the ancient troll hunters to go talk with them or something. Something like that

Jeff: like basically Sheridan's journey isn't done. He's not popping back to Babylon five necessarily.

Brent: don't, I don't think so. Not yet. I think he's got a, there's a, there's a, a leveling up he's gotta go through now that he's, he's gone through his peace with Lian. What about

Jeff: I think this, I think this one's gonna focus on Gar Baldi actually. I think that's, I hope so too. I, but I think this is gonna be, um, it's gonna go into some of what led to, like, we're gonna get a little flashback to like what led to that scene cuz he clearly was under duress and had some, had some stuff they mentioned multiple times.

You know, if it, if it doesn't put the lotion on its skin, it gets the hose again, basically . And so it's like he's been through some, we're gonna get some of that. I, I think that the episode will ultimately end with his, um, like be, I still think it's bester coming in at the end to save him and I think it's gonna be kind of them busting out to head to babbel on five.

But I think the summoning piece is gonna belen summoning the rest of the, the Rangers and the few remaining league worlds that are interested in, in pitching in, but, I don't think things are gonna go well for this Zaha do mission, but I don't think that's gonna go badly on Zaha Doom. I think it's gonna go badly on Babylon five.

Like people are gonna start questioning why she's making this decision and there's gonna be a lot of strife really about her. Really what Naroon was talking about in um, was that, uh, ceremonies of light and dark. I mean no,

Brent: Mm-hmm. interludes and examinations.

Jeff: yeah. And interludes in examinations where he's like, you're, you're, you're going after power, you're doing all these things. I think some of that's gonna come to a head and her little battle fleet, like before, like it's gonna start falling apart, delaying it. And so then over, not like maybe in two episodes from now when Sheridan does come back to Babylon five, it'll be just in time for him to be like, no, don't go there.

We're gonna go do this thing. I.

And we're gonna find out right here next week. Thank you everyone so much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe or follow wherever you get your podcasts. And do Please Stop by Apple Podcast Pod chaser, good pods anywhere. Leave us a rating or review or read it here on the podcast. So Brent, until next

Brent: Hey Jeff,

Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. What's up?

Brent: do you by any chance happen to know where Mr. Garabaldi might be?

Jeff: I do not. And no one knows the Shape of the future or where it will take us.